Alternate ways to deal with Knowledge, Craft, and Profession skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate ways to deal with Knowledge, Craft, and Profession skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sir_Darien
07-21-04, 02:44 AM I'm curious to know if anyone has come up with a better way to deal with a way to deal with Knowledge, Craft, and Profession skills other than the normal system.

I find it a problem that the only way a guy can have 20 ranks in the Profession (Baker) skill also has to have 17HD and a base atk bonus of at least +8/+3. Why can't an NPC just be a REALLY, REALLY good baker, without being tougher to kill than a troll?

I have similar problems with the Knowledge skills, especially Knowledge (local). I get Knowledge arcana and religion being linked to training in certain areas and thus a function of experience, but having local knowledge being a skill that requires training doesn't seem right. You can't tell me that after a year poking around the same country, characters don't know the lords name, the location of a few major landmarks, the streets of thew city they're in all the time, etc.

I've started awarding free ranks in Knowledge (local) based on how much time characters spend in a location, but that only fixes part of the problem. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
rogue_lettuce
07-21-04, 05:12 AM That's because this is a level-based system. If you're interested in more freedom when developing characters, I'd recommend trying uot a system like Mind's Eye Theatre or the d6 Star Wars system, etc, etc.:)
gleep
07-21-04, 10:17 AM You're taking things too litterally.

I use a DC10 knowledge check for most of your examples, which can be done untrained and characters can easily take ten on it.

I don't think he's talking about freedom in developing characters but the skewed results the system gives. Someone that's studied ten years to be a chef and has profession (cook) should be much better than some cleric that plops a point in cook every now and then to show she's a decent cook. Yet in the current system, you have a 20th level commoner verses a 10th level cleric.

I've been toying with the idea of throwing out the "1st level is average" thing out the window. Make all the "experienced" commoners 10th level and work up and down according to large difference in experience. Then the 1st level characters will really be starting out in the world. Muhahahaha.

:D

--gleep
Brknlf
07-21-04, 03:03 PM Someone can probably explain this better, but its very long they way I'm presenting it:

I think you’re looking too literally at the rules and letting them rule your campaign. Applying classes to every living person in your game will skew things considerably. However, even then, if you want to do this it still does not mean the 17th level fighter who spends points in cooking is going to be better than the baker who has dedicated his life to baking. First, most of these skills are not time sensitive like the other skills in their use and are a little different than you may be interpreting them.

Craft skill: Using this skill, the item will be crafted in the end. Failing does not mean the item is ruined, it merely means the item takes longer to make.

Profession skill: There is no failure with profession skills either. You can use this skill to work a week in the profession; when you make your profession check at the end of the week, you earn half the result in gold pieces.

Knowledge: This is presumed to indicate an immediate answer off the top of ones head and no research whatsoever.

This said, you’re also completely overlooking circumstance bonuses and what was once the synergy bonus in 3.0 (now these are unnamed in 3.5). Synergy bonuses stacked in 3.0, circumstance bonuses arising from different circumstances stack and all unnamed bonuses stack.

Now, let’s take three separate characters based on the rules:

Joe the Fighter, at 17th level, has maxed out his Craft (Cooking). As a class skill, he has 20 ranks in cooking. This has severally cut into other skills that could really help him as an adventurer, but he always wanted to be a great cook as well as a master swordsmen.

Effie has, as a 7th level commoner (7 levels to represent 20 years of expereince as a peasant woman), 30 skill points with a max potential rank in class skills of 10 (5 in cross class). Her main chores include home stewardship, cooking and cleaning. Respectively in this order, she has maxed out profession (peasant stewardship – home economics if you wish) at 10 ranks. Cooking has been a fairly consistent chore and she has 5 ranks in Craft (cooking), cleaning is something she does but doesn’t necessarily like so she has 5 ranks here. Growing up she was trained by her mother in the preparation of stews and to represent this relationship and her continued interest in pleasing her husband’s appetite, she has 5 ranks in Craft (Peasant Stew). Lastly, working on and around farms, she has picked up 2.5 ranks in Knowledge (Herbs and Spices); knowledge is her only cross class skill. Effie is a good cook by local standards in her village and these skills represent this.

Iron Chef Matsumoto has, as an Iron Chef (12th level Expert - trained chef with years of experience), 105 skill points available to him; he can have 15 ranks in class skills and 7.5 ranks in class skills. Also, as an expert, the character build allows 10 class skills to be chosen to reflect whatever he is an expert at. He has maxed out Craft (Cooking) at 15 ranks and Profession (Chef) at 15 ranks as well. He has also studied intensively on the preparation of deer meet, a delicacy in his native land, and has Knowledge (Preparation of Deer Meat – 1,001 uses for Deer) at 10 ranks. Also, he too has learned how to effectively use herbs and spices in cooking and has Knowledge (Herbs and Spices) at 10 ranks. In further studies he has also learned about fancy desserts and has Craft (Delicate Deserts and Tasty Confections) at 5 ranks. Likewise he has picked up Craft (Light Soups) and Craft (Bread Befitting a King) both at 5 ranks. In learning about soups, he has picked up Knowledge (Sauces) at 5 ranks and Knowledge (Presentation of Food) at 5 ranks. Of course, he has picked up Knowledge (Kitchen Utensils) at 10 ranks. He still has a few points left over (and possible more if he took all of these as class skills). He has also picked up the leadership feat to gain apprentice chefs to assist in the kitchen (we’ll give him 5 assistants).

One day, Joe, Effie and Iron Chef Matsumoto are summoned to the king’s palace and they are told they must prepare a meal for the king that evening. Today’s theme ingredient: deer – let the battle begin!

Joe has +20 to his prepare meal check for his. However, he is unfamiliar with the royal pantry and receives a -2 circumstance bonus for this. Likewise he is unfamiliar with all the utensils in the royal kitchen and receives another -2 circumstance bonus for not knowing about everything here. Finally he receives a -2 circumstance bonus for not knowing what a royal meal might consist of. So his total bonus to his roll is +14 now.

Effie starts with +5 to her roll. She has a little more familiarity around a kitchen and preparing larger meals than Joe, so she doesn’t receive any of the negative modifiers as he did. In the same vein, she can probably use the peasant markets to acquire the more tasty foods she wants to prepare that day thanks to her profession (stewardship) skill and can either gain a +2 synergy bonus for this or a +2 circumstance bonus for this, your choice. Likewise she can spice the meat thanks to her knowledge of herbs and spices for another +2 bonus and she plans to make a memorable stew for the king and gains another +2 bonus. Because she has a lifetime experience of preparing meals, unlike Joe, she receives another +2 circumstance bonus for this and she receives a +2 bonus for effectively utilizing the king’s kitchen. Her total bonus is +15.

Iron Chef Matsumoto steps up to the plate, starting at +15 for his cooking skill. He receives no negative modifies as well and benefits from the king’s kitchen just like Effie (+4 total for being familiar with a large kitchen and for using the king’s masterwork utensils). He gains a +2 circumstance/synergy bonus for profession chef. Using deer meat he gains a +2 circumstance bonus as well to his meal. He gains a +2 circumstance bonus to his meal as well for preparing multiple dishes to appease the king. He makes a soup, +2 and bread befitting a king, +2. He creates an exquisite sauce for the meet, +2, and then shows off by preparing chilled peaches, +2. He utilizes his assistants to help him prepare this meal (synergy bonus of at least +2, depending on how you interpret the synergy from friend’s bonuses to using a skill). His roll is at least at a +35.

Not counting the actual dice roll and, instead, assuming they all roll the same number, Iron Chef Matsumoto finishes far ahead of the pack, Effie and Joe are very close with their meals but Effie was a little more effective using spices and being handy in the kitchen. No ability modifiers are included in these rolls as we’re assuming that they are all the same.

However, throw them into the arena with only a short sword and Joe will be making minced meat of the other two, even if they try to double team him. Likewise, put them in charge of a peasant home and Effie will trounce the other two who have little to know experience in stewardship.

This is quite a bit of in-depth madness to keep track of in game. As for my games, and presumably others, we generally assume that the Expert will be far better at what they do then the fighter and the commoner (even assuming both are of higher level than the expert). This works with all professions/skills. The butcher who has skills that synergize and circumstances that assist his profession will do better. The sage who has other knowledge skills that could effectively synergize with in answering the question will do well similarly and any sage with a library could practically guarantee an answer to the question. Knowledge skills with the ability to research them would probably also allow the person answering the question to take 20. I see the knowledge skill check as more of answering the question at the spur of the moment (in the middle of an adventure).
NeutralNeutral
07-21-04, 07:33 PM Why not simply just ignore levels and give NPCs whatever skills you see fit?
Sir_Darien
07-21-04, 08:56 PM Originally posted by NeutralNeutral
Why not simply just ignore levels and give NPCs whatever skills you see fit?

Probably because that would be the obvious solution. Thanks for making me see what was right in front of me.

And thanks to brknlf as well for making me think a bit more about the way the skill system is set up.
Simetrical
07-21-04, 09:05 PM I use a DC10 knowledge check for most of your examples, which can be done untrained and characters can easily take ten on it. ~gleep

Can you really take 10 on a Knowledge check? That makes no sense.
Brknlf
07-22-04, 08:42 AM Can you really take 10 on a Knowledge check? That makes no sense.

Depends on the circumstance. Look at the skill, the only time a skill check roll is required is to answer an immediate question. Such as, while in a dungeon the party comes across ancient inscriptions or when physical asked a question. Players can make knowledge checks to see what they recall on the spot. The roll is for more immediate answer questions. Now, if the player didn't figure these out while in the dungeon, but copied them somehow - I believe doing research in a library would constitute as taking 10 or 20 on the Knowledge check.
Simetrical
07-22-04, 05:49 PM If the character can effectively use a library, I would ignore his skill modifier altogether, and just assign the library an automatic pseudo-skill result. That is, if a massive interplanar library contains vast amounts of information about the planes, anyone who can effectively use the library would get to automatically learn anything they're looking for with a Knowledge (the Planes) DC of, say, 30 or less. Even if I know squat about the planes, I can still learn whatever I need to know in a well-organized library. Limiting me to DC 10 questions makes little sense.
mercurial67
07-22-04, 06:08 PM Good example Brknlf. So many people forget about synergy & circumstance bonuses. Any decent expert is going to be cross-trained with interrelated skills which will aid them.

As for libraries, I have always assigned a knowledge rank for a library (adjust for specific topics which the library may or may not specialize in). Then you either use the library skill level or your own (add in +2 aid bonus if the lower rank is at least +5). This takes hours to do though.

Of course you have to have ranks in knowledge[library] to use the resources at the library or you can just hire one of the librarians to help you find everything. (take someone into a library who has never used one & see how well they find any information)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir_Darien 07-21-04, 02:44 AM	I'm curious to know if anyone has come up with a better way to deal with a way to deal with Knowledge, Craft, and Profession skills other than the normal system. I find it a problem that the only way a guy can have 20 ranks in the Profession (Baker) skill also has to have 17HD and a base atk bonus of at least +8/+3. Why can't an NPC just be a REALLY, REALLY good baker, without being tougher to kill than a troll? I have similar problems with the Knowledge skills, especially Knowledge (local). I get Knowledge arcana and religion being linked to training in certain areas and thus a function of experience, but having local knowledge being a skill that requires training doesn't seem right. You can't tell me that after a year poking around the same country, characters don't know the lords name, the location of a few major landmarks, the streets of thew city they're in all the time, etc. I've started awarding free ranks in Knowledge (local) based on how much time characters spend in a location, but that only fixes part of the problem. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
rogue_lettuce 07-21-04, 05:12 AM	That's because this is a level-based system. If you're interested in more freedom when developing characters, I'd recommend trying uot a system like Mind's Eye Theatre or the d6 Star Wars system, etc, etc.:)
gleep 07-21-04, 10:17 AM	You're taking things too litterally. I use a DC10 knowledge check for most of your examples, which can be done untrained and characters can easily take ten on it. I don't think he's talking about freedom in developing characters but the skewed results the system gives. Someone that's studied ten years to be a chef and has profession (cook) should be much better than some cleric that plops a point in cook every now and then to show she's a decent cook. Yet in the current system, you have a 20th level commoner verses a 10th level cleric. I've been toying with the idea of throwing out the "1st level is average" thing out the window. Make all the "experienced" commoners 10th level and work up and down according to large difference in experience. Then the 1st level characters will really be starting out in the world. Muhahahaha. :D --gleep
Brknlf 07-21-04, 03:03 PM	Someone can probably explain this better, but its very long they way I'm presenting it: I think you’re looking too literally at the rules and letting them rule your campaign. Applying classes to every living person in your game will skew things considerably. However, even then, if you want to do this it still does not mean the 17th level fighter who spends points in cooking is going to be better than the baker who has dedicated his life to baking. First, most of these skills are not time sensitive like the other skills in their use and are a little different than you may be interpreting them. Craft skill: Using this skill, the item will be crafted in the end. Failing does not mean the item is ruined, it merely means the item takes longer to make. Profession skill: There is no failure with profession skills either. You can use this skill to work a week in the profession; when you make your profession check at the end of the week, you earn half the result in gold pieces. Knowledge: This is presumed to indicate an immediate answer off the top of ones head and no research whatsoever. This said, you’re also completely overlooking circumstance bonuses and what was once the synergy bonus in 3.0 (now these are unnamed in 3.5). Synergy bonuses stacked in 3.0, circumstance bonuses arising from different circumstances stack and all unnamed bonuses stack. Now, let’s take three separate characters based on the rules: Joe the Fighter, at 17th level, has maxed out his Craft (Cooking). As a class skill, he has 20 ranks in cooking. This has severally cut into other skills that could really help him as an adventurer, but he always wanted to be a great cook as well as a master swordsmen. Effie has, as a 7th level commoner (7 levels to represent 20 years of expereince as a peasant woman), 30 skill points with a max potential rank in class skills of 10 (5 in cross class). Her main chores include home stewardship, cooking and cleaning. Respectively in this order, she has maxed out profession (peasant stewardship – home economics if you wish) at 10 ranks. Cooking has been a fairly consistent chore and she has 5 ranks in Craft (cooking), cleaning is something she does but doesn’t necessarily like so she has 5 ranks here. Growing up she was trained by her mother in the preparation of stews and to represent this relationship and her continued interest in pleasing her husband’s appetite, she has 5 ranks in Craft (Peasant Stew). Lastly, working on and around farms, she has picked up 2.5 ranks in Knowledge (Herbs and Spices); knowledge is her only cross class skill. Effie is a good cook by local standards in her village and these skills represent this. Iron Chef Matsumoto has, as an Iron Chef (12th level Expert - trained chef with years of experience), 105 skill points available to him; he can have 15 ranks in class skills and 7.5 ranks in class skills. Also, as an expert, the character build allows 10 class skills to be chosen to reflect whatever he is an expert at. He has maxed out Craft (Cooking) at 15 ranks and Profession (Chef) at 15 ranks as well. He has also studied intensively on the preparation of deer meet, a delicacy in his native land, and has Knowledge (Preparation of Deer Meat – 1,001 uses for Deer) at 10 ranks. Also, he too has learned how to effectively use herbs and spices in cooking and has Knowledge (Herbs and Spices) at 10 ranks. In further studies he has also learned about fancy desserts and has Craft (Delicate Deserts and Tasty Confections) at 5 ranks. Likewise he has picked up Craft (Light Soups) and Craft (Bread Befitting a King) both at 5 ranks. In learning about soups, he has picked up Knowledge (Sauces) at 5 ranks and Knowledge (Presentation of Food) at 5 ranks. Of course, he has picked up Knowledge (Kitchen Utensils) at 10 ranks. He still has a few points left over (and possible more if he took all of these as class skills). He has also picked up the leadership feat to gain apprentice chefs to assist in the kitchen (we’ll give him 5 assistants). One day, Joe, Effie and Iron Chef Matsumoto are summoned to the king’s palace and they are told they must prepare a meal for the king that evening. Today’s theme ingredient: deer – let the battle begin! Joe has +20 to his prepare meal check for his. However, he is unfamiliar with the royal pantry and receives a -2 circumstance bonus for this. Likewise he is unfamiliar with all the utensils in the royal kitchen and receives another -2 circumstance bonus for not knowing about everything here. Finally he receives a -2 circumstance bonus for not knowing what a royal meal might consist of. So his total bonus to his roll is +14 now. Effie starts with +5 to her roll. She has a little more familiarity around a kitchen and preparing larger meals than Joe, so she doesn’t receive any of the negative modifiers as he did. In the same vein, she can probably use the peasant markets to acquire the more tasty foods she wants to prepare that day thanks to her profession (stewardship) skill and can either gain a +2 synergy bonus for this or a +2 circumstance bonus for this, your choice. Likewise she can spice the meat thanks to her knowledge of herbs and spices for another +2 bonus and she plans to make a memorable stew for the king and gains another +2 bonus. Because she has a lifetime experience of preparing meals, unlike Joe, she receives another +2 circumstance bonus for this and she receives a +2 bonus for effectively utilizing the king’s kitchen. Her total bonus is +15. Iron Chef Matsumoto steps up to the plate, starting at +15 for his cooking skill. He receives no negative modifies as well and benefits from the king’s kitchen just like Effie (+4 total for being familiar with a large kitchen and for using the king’s masterwork utensils). He gains a +2 circumstance/synergy bonus for profession chef. Using deer meat he gains a +2 circumstance bonus as well to his meal. He gains a +2 circumstance bonus to his meal as well for preparing multiple dishes to appease the king. He makes a soup, +2 and bread befitting a king, +2. He creates an exquisite sauce for the meet, +2, and then shows off by preparing chilled peaches, +2. He utilizes his assistants to help him prepare this meal (synergy bonus of at least +2, depending on how you interpret the synergy from friend’s bonuses to using a skill). His roll is at least at a +35. Not counting the actual dice roll and, instead, assuming they all roll the same number, Iron Chef Matsumoto finishes far ahead of the pack, Effie and Joe are very close with their meals but Effie was a little more effective using spices and being handy in the kitchen. No ability modifiers are included in these rolls as we’re assuming that they are all the same. However, throw them into the arena with only a short sword and Joe will be making minced meat of the other two, even if they try to double team him. Likewise, put them in charge of a peasant home and Effie will trounce the other two who have little to know experience in stewardship. This is quite a bit of in-depth madness to keep track of in game. As for my games, and presumably others, we generally assume that the Expert will be far better at what they do then the fighter and the commoner (even assuming both are of higher level than the expert). This works with all professions/skills. The butcher who has skills that synergize and circumstances that assist his profession will do better. The sage who has other knowledge skills that could effectively synergize with in answering the question will do well similarly and any sage with a library could practically guarantee an answer to the question. Knowledge skills with the ability to research them would probably also allow the person answering the question to take 20. I see the knowledge skill check as more of answering the question at the spur of the moment (in the middle of an adventure).
NeutralNeutral 07-21-04, 07:33 PM	Why not simply just ignore levels and give NPCs whatever skills you see fit?
Sir_Darien 07-21-04, 08:56 PM	Originally posted by NeutralNeutral Why not simply just ignore levels and give NPCs whatever skills you see fit? Probably because that would be the obvious solution. Thanks for making me see what was right in front of me. And thanks to brknlf as well for making me think a bit more about the way the skill system is set up.
Simetrical 07-21-04, 09:05 PM	I use a DC10 knowledge check for most of your examples, which can be done untrained and characters can easily take ten on it. ~gleep Can you really take 10 on a Knowledge check? That makes no sense.
Brknlf 07-22-04, 08:42 AM	Can you really take 10 on a Knowledge check? That makes no sense. Depends on the circumstance. Look at the skill, the only time a skill check roll is required is to answer an immediate question. Such as, while in a dungeon the party comes across ancient inscriptions or when physical asked a question. Players can make knowledge checks to see what they recall on the spot. The roll is for more immediate answer questions. Now, if the player didn't figure these out while in the dungeon, but copied them somehow - I believe doing research in a library would constitute as taking 10 or 20 on the Knowledge check.
Simetrical 07-22-04, 05:49 PM	If the character can effectively use a library, I would ignore his skill modifier altogether, and just assign the library an automatic pseudo-skill result. That is, if a massive interplanar library contains vast amounts of information about the planes, anyone who can effectively use the library would get to automatically learn anything they're looking for with a Knowledge (the Planes) DC of, say, 30 or less. Even if I know squat about the planes, I can still learn whatever I need to know in a well-organized library. Limiting me to DC 10 questions makes little sense.
mercurial67 07-22-04, 06:08 PM	Good example Brknlf. So many people forget about synergy & circumstance bonuses. Any decent expert is going to be cross-trained with interrelated skills which will aid them. As for libraries, I have always assigned a knowledge rank for a library (adjust for specific topics which the library may or may not specialize in). Then you either use the library skill level or your own (add in +2 aid bonus if the lower rank is at least +5). This takes hours to do though. Of course you have to have ranks in knowledge[library] to use the resources at the library or you can just hire one of the librarians to help you find everything. (take someone into a library who has never used one & see how well they find any information)