Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gojumamoru 07-26-07, 10:57 AM	Hello all. I've been lurking here for a bit but I'm a long time gamer. I've been reading alot on the forums and found that people seem to be describing a type of D&D completely foreign to me. The biggest differance I see here is the use of XP. Early in gaming I found that I didn't like giving away xp for killing monsters. On one hand it caused me to have to send more encounters into the game than I would like to. For example I keep hearing about this rule of 3 encounters per day. That just seems a bit to restricting for a game based on role playing. Also I would have issues that when I did send a monster vs the players that would actually challenge them they would get enough xp to gain a few levels. (I'm aware of the no more than one level rule) So I just threw out the xp system all together. Now I feel much more freedom when running my games and don't have to deal with alot of the problems I read about here (like players trying to farm or hog xp). I give out a set ammount of xp per game then give bonuses based on major events and goals. This lets my players know they get awarded xp by finding unique ways of solving problems and accomplishing thier goals. It also opens up the game alot. For example I have had 7 long games with not a single combat. It was all rp and solving a mystery. Then last game they had over ten powerful encounters in a single session. I'm always supprised with their ability to kill monsters much higher than their challenge rating. What xp systems do you use? Has anyone else thrown out the xp for killing monsters? Do you reduce the xp for them and try to balance it out with other things? Also how fast do your players tend to level? I would say my party levels every 3 games or so and we play once a week. I like long games where everyone slowly comes into power.
Legdiwena 07-26-07, 12:09 PM	If monsters of a CR they should be fighting are too weak. Adjust down the CR of bigger monsters you send at them and they won't gain XP so fast.
Khaim 07-26-07, 12:46 PM	Also I would have issues that when I did send a monster vs the players that would actually challenge them they would get enough xp to gain a few levels. (I'm aware of the no more than one level rule) One of three things is happening here: Your players all made stupidly broken characters from the CharOpt board They are breaking the rules of the game, with or without your knowledge You're misreading the XP table The only way I can think of that they would gain enough XP to gain several levels is if they were level 1 and gained 3k XP. Which means they took down a CR 6 or so (I'm AFB, but that's about right), and you gave them all the listed XP instead of splitting it between them. And they'd have to cheat to beat that monster, since I don't know any level 1 builds that would come close to taking down a CR 6+. Edit: There's nothing wrong with RP awards. I think they're a great idea. But the rules for combat XP work, and work well.
gojumamoru 07-26-07, 01:14 PM	Ah I should clarfy that. This was back in 1st and 2nd edition. My players are above average in powerlevel but not broken. But I'm really not looking for ways to solve the xp problem. I've never even tried to do monster xp in 3rd ed. I don't like giving xp for monsters under any circumstance. It gives me more control over the game. I've never gotten any complaints from the players they like the system. It also encourages alot more rp and problem solving where fighting isn't always the first option. My question is more about other game masters. What have you done to make xp a bit more interesting in your games? Has anyone come up with any alternate systems? Xp for monsters just always felt to video game like to me.
olshanski_home 07-26-07, 01:56 PM	I give XP exactly as suggested in the book. The fact that you haven't even tried using the written rules, and are looking for alternatives, makes be believe that your post is in jest. "I never put air in the tires of my car. Do other people do interesting things with their car? (like take the oil out or the brake fluid?) I've never actually driven anywhere with air in the tires of my car, so I have no basis for comparison, but I like the feeling of control I get with no air in the tires. Nobody has complained about my tires and I haven't had an accident."
Mirage_1 07-26-07, 01:57 PM	depending on how fast I want to level the characters, I start with a base of 200xp*average party level per gaming session. This gets adjusted up or down based on how I felt the night went. I then throw in a modifier based on character level vs party level (basic result is lower level characters get more, higher level get less. helps catch people up). After all of that, I then look at individual play and adjust for how the player/character did. In essence, I can easily have an evening of pure RP and end up with more XP than if it was pure hack and slash.
weasel0 07-26-07, 02:02 PM	I actually take an even more extreme approach. I use the rules as written.... oh, wait ... nevermind...
gojumamoru 07-26-07, 02:06 PM	"I give XP exactly as suggested in the book. The fact that you haven't even tried using the written rules, and are looking for alternatives, makes be believe that your post is in jest." Maybe I did a poor job at making myself understood. I don't give xp for monsters because if I did then my players would gain 1 level every 4-5 months becuase I can go weeks with out a single encounter. So I haven't tried the new rules because they simply don't apply to my game style. Does that make it more clear? I'm not asking for ways to solve a problem because I refuse to try the new rules out. I'm just asking for other ideas about non combat based xp systems other game masters might use. Do you use any or have you tried any?
UltimateReality 07-26-07, 03:19 PM	The 3.5 edition of the DMG is pretty clear that you give xp for overcoming challenges instead of just killing monsters. Killing monsters is a very large subset of "challenges", and not much space in the book is devoted to non-combat xp, but it is at least mentioned. And I don't use xp as written in the book. My games run just fine anyway. I don't think that not slavishly following the RAW as per xp is letting the air out of your tires. More like making modifications under the hood -- some people make good ones, some people make bad ones, and some are just different.
olshanski_home 07-26-07, 03:22 PM	Maybe I did a poor job at making myself understood. I don't give xp for monsters because if I did then my players would gain 1 level every 4-5 months becuase I can go weeks with out a single encounter. So I haven't tried the new rules because they simply don't apply to my game style. Does that make it more clear? I'm not asking for ways to solve a problem because I refuse to try the new rules out. I'm just asking for other ideas about non combat based xp systems other game masters might use. Do you use any or have you tried any? Providing XP for overcoming challenges (typically monsters) as expressed in the DMG is an excellent rule and works well. Are you missing the fact that the book also suggests giving XP rewards for other things? * Overcoming a trap of a given CR is worth XP as if you defeated a monster of similar CR in combat. * Handling a negotiation with an NPC or resolving a challenging encounter without resorting to violence is worth XP as if defeating a monster of similar CR in combat. * "Story Experience" can be awarded for meeting goals set by the DM that advance the plot. Story experience is usually worth experience equivalent to overcoming a CR equal to the average party member's level. There are 3 additional ways that players earn XP using the rules expressed in the DMG. Combat isn't the only way to earn XP according to the rules. The rules work. Seriously. ----------------- For alternate rules: Some people are not good with math, or want more control over the development of PCs. A variant way of handing out experience is as follows: Every x encounters, the DM declares "you've all gone up a level". Some DMs have their groups go up a level after every session. Some DMs have their groups go up a level every 3 sessions. Some DMs have their groups go up a level every 5 sessions.
Zarron 07-26-07, 03:24 PM	Yeah; we used the "Go up a level when I say you do; we'll worry about XP when it matters for spell casters."
olshanski_home 07-26-07, 03:25 PM	I don't think that not slavishly following the RAW as per xp is letting the air out of your tires. More like making modifications under the hood -- some people make good ones, some people make bad ones, and some are just different. My point wasn't that using an alternate system is bad. Its that looking for alternate systems without even trying the suggested method is just plain silly.
endofdreams 07-26-07, 04:48 PM	Experience yield in my campaigns are almost exclusively RP based, and are awarded in conjunction to plot development. Monsters yeild experience, but only those of sufficient challenge that effect the overall storyline (a herd of cattle are not worth battle experience, but might provide roleplay experience if there was a viable rationale behind the action. But mainly experience wells from uncovering secrets, manipulating npcs, and discovering purpose, rather than simply slaughtering a field of challenge rating one monsters to harvest experience. I think its silly that a single battle could hold enough life changing knowledge to advance you in power. Yes perhaps you're a little wiser, but it seems to foster an unconventional amount of brass from players when they assume they are invincible because they spent their time killing horses and old beggars. I play a low experience module as well, so it takes more effort to advance oneself. then you can really appreciate being of higher power. My players really seem to enjoy the fact that they don't have to be adept at swinging an axe or chanting a spell to advance in power and prestige. But having it is certainly a benefit. So no, I do not use the experience tables from the book.
hovnarr 07-26-07, 05:30 PM	My question is more about other game masters. What have you done to make xp a bit more interesting in your games? Has anyone come up with any alternate systems? Xp for monsters just always felt to video game like to me. While I have no problem with a video game feel occasionally penetrating in the campaign (as long as everybody think it's fun), I've omitted XP in my present campaign. It so happens that it's in 22 chapters, starting at level 1, so I decided to just make the party gain a level each chapter. They get to go out with an epic bang, see pretty much all there is to see of the D&D world through more than 20 levels, and advancement isn't too quick nor too slow. To reward individual efforts, and solves problems like spending xp etc, I use an action point variant instead.
gojumamoru 07-26-07, 06:38 PM	Level per chapter sounds like a really great idea to build a game around. I'm not familiar with these points you refer to. Is this some house rule or is there a book that introduced them? How do you use these points?
vonklaude 07-26-07, 06:45 PM	Hello all. I've been lurking here for a bit but I'm a long time gamer. I've been reading alot on the forums and found that people seem to be describing a type of D&D completely foreign to me. The biggest differance I see here is the use of XP. Early in gaming I found that I didn't like giving away xp for killing monsters. On one hand it caused me to have to send more encounters into the game than I would like to. For example I keep hearing about this rule of 3 encounters per day. That just seems a bit to restricting for a game based on role playing. Also I would have issues that when I did send a monster vs the players that would actually challenge them they would get enough xp to gain a few levels. (I'm aware of the no more than one level rule) So I just threw out the xp system all together. Now I feel much more freedom when running my games and don't have to deal with alot of the problems I read about here (like players trying to farm or hog xp). I give out a set ammount of xp per game then give bonuses based on major events and goals. This lets my players know they get awarded xp by finding unique ways of solving problems and accomplishing thier goals. It also opens up the game alot. For example I have had 7 long games with not a single combat. It was all rp and solving a mystery. Then last game they had over ten powerful encounters in a single session. I'm always supprised with their ability to kill monsters much higher than their challenge rating. What xp systems do you use? Has anyone else thrown out the xp for killing monsters? Do you reduce the xp for them and try to balance it out with other things? Also how fast do your players tend to level? I would say my party levels every 3 games or so and we play once a week. I like long games where everyone slowly comes into power. I whole-heartedly agree with the sentiment you express. At the risk of revealing what a pernicious, RAI-dealing, high-handed DM I am, and substantially undermining my credibility in other threads, here is the system I use. Note: Whatever you think of this system, my players love it, and that comes to a lot of different people over the 4 years my campaign has been running in the UK. (I used to run a 2ED campaign, but that ended when I moved to the other side of the world!) Advancement Rate I want characters to advance on average 1 level per 3 sessions they play in. This means they should earn the following averages per session: • 4th going to 5th = ~1300 each, ~6700 for a party of five • 5th going to 6th = ~1700 each, ~8300 for a party of five • 6th going to 7th = ~2000 each, ~10,000 for a party of five In terms of standard encounters that would translate to 5 ½ encounters per session of a CR equal to the party level. I expect to have only 2-3 extended encounters per session. The WotC designers expect characters to need 13.33 encounters to advance one level. That would imply 4.43 encounters per session, but since I want more elaborate encounters (more side detail, more resources expended per fight ), I am increasing XP awards relative to encounters by 25%, as described below. Encounters Players can earn 50% of the standard awards for encounters. So 2-3 encounters per game should get them: • 4th going to 5th = 480 to 720 each, 2400 to 3600 for a party of five • 5th going to 6th = 600 to 900 each, 3000 to 4500 for a party of five • 6th going to 7th = 720 to 1080 each, 3600 to 5400 for a party of five Characters will get this award so long as they are in the fighting, even as an NPC. Roleplaying Players can earn 25% more for roleplaying. ‘Roleplaying’ means speaking and taking actions that are in character and/or that entertain everyone. They’ll earn about: • 4th going to 5th = 240 to 360 each, 1200 to 1800 for a party of five • 5th going to 6th = 300 to 450 each, 1500 to 2250 for a party of five • 6th going to 7th = 360 to 540 each, 1800 to 2700 for a party of five Characters will get this award only when they are playing. Good Actions Good actions can earn up to 25% more. Good actions mean sacrifices or risks taken to do what is right and good. General goodness will earn a small part of the possible award. Bad actions will cancel out good actions at an adverse ratio; a moderately bad action will cancel a major good action. The awards are based on the roleplaying award rates, and will be: • Ordinary good action = 1/10th award • Significant good action = ½ the award • Saintly good action = the whole award Characters will get this award only when they are playing. Story & Objectives Furthering the story and accomplishing objectives will earn a further 25% award. This can be small things, like asking a farmer directions, big things like fulfilling a task set for you, or self-created things like fulfilling a promise. Only 20% of this award is available on a per-session basis, that is: • 4th going to 5th = 48 to 72 each, 240 to 360 for a party of five • 5th going to 6th = 60 to 90 each, 300 to 450 for a party of five • 6th going to 7th = 72 to 108 each, 360 to 540 for a party of five Characters earn (or accumulate) this award so long as they are involved in the story, but only for sessions in which they play and take actions toward the objective. The remaining 80% is accumulated session by session and awarded when the players accomplish an objective or advance the story. So the award accumulated per session that goes by without reaching an objective is: • 4th going to 5th = 192 to 288 each, 860 to 1440 for a party of five • 5th going to 6th = 240 to 360 each, 1200 to 1800 for a party of five • 6th going to 7th = 288 to 432 each, 1440 to 2160 for a party of five Characters earn (or accumulate) this award so long as they are involved in the story, but only for sessions in which they play and the party takes action toward the objective. Keeper of the Journal The player who keeps the game journal gets an award each week, when they post the journal. • 4th going to 5th = 240 • 5th going to 6th = 300 6th going to 7th = 360 -vk
Werral 07-26-07, 07:13 PM	OP and Vonklaude: I salute you. Just an idea but if you don't want to use story XP but want something more concrete remember you can set a CR for anything: That threatens the party in some way. So if you have to convince the king not to execute you, that (non-combat) situation has a CR. If you are lost on a mountainside and need to find shelter, then that situations can have a CR. You'll have to tailor it but the best guide is to use the Skill/Save DC's as a guide for the numbers. The problem is obviously that lots of situations are independent of level (ie riddles or other puzzles aimed at the players) in that case just assume the CR is equal to the party if it's moderate or a few levels lower if it's easy, or a few levels higher if it's hard. I would also look into Action Points and use them rather than XP for rewarding Good Actions and such.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-26-07, 09:18 PM	Ah I should clarfy that. This was back in 1st and 2nd edition. Which was even more impossible than it is now.
UltimateReality 07-27-07, 12:25 AM	Level per chapter sounds like a really great idea to build a game around. I'm not familiar with these points you refer to. Is this some house rule or is there a book that introduced them? How do you use these points?Action points are described in the Unearthed Arcana (available OGL content here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm)) and a watered down version is available in the Eberron Campaign Setting.
CCS 07-27-07, 12:51 AM	In my upcoming Dragonlance campaign I'm considering doing xps per "chapter" completed. I've broken the expected course of play into segments. Once the the PCs complete one of these segments, then they advance a level.... Like I said though, I'm only considering it atm. For two main reasons; 1) It'll work great as long as the players do roughly what I expect. But when they do something completely different it'll break down a bit. 2) I haven't had a chance to discuss this idea with them yet. It's quite possible that while it seems like a decent enough notion to ME, they might not agree....
gojumamoru 07-27-07, 09:41 AM	I just wanted to thank everyone who gave ideas. I'll probably be using many of your ideas in my games. After how this thread started out I wasn't expecting it to end up being so helpful. Anyway thanks for the input.
Thanuir 07-28-07, 06:37 AM	Character exp: Each player lists a number of goals his or her character has. Whenever a player furthers one of the goals some experience is gained. Whenever a goal is completed a lot of experience is gained. Maybe a have some party-level goals, too, if you want to keep the chars together.
hovnarr 07-28-07, 09:02 AM	Level per chapter sounds like a really great idea to build a game around. I'm not familiar with these points you refer to. Is this some house rule or is there a book that introduced them? How do you use these points? Both really. I came up with my own solution, but I later discovered that almost exactly the same thing was already done with these Action Points (I called mine "Hero Points"). I think AP can be found in Unearthed Arcana, large sections of which are public in the open SRD. If you're interested, send me a PM and I'll copy-paste my point system to you there. It's complete for item creation and everything. Cheers!
Kedami 07-28-07, 11:22 AM	I use the system near the back of the Unearthed Arcana. My players really enjoy hack-and-slash style play... I wish I had at least one player like some of yours to make it a little different... Ah well. The last post mentioned that they had a system adjusted for item creation. I've left the item creation the same alongside the UA experience system, but only to encourage item creation as it's never used by my players... Unless you count the Craft skill (I don't). Oh, yeah... I've also left the numbers in the spells that require XP the same to encourage those too (Except Wish and Miracle, for obvious reasons). This system tends to work for the style of play my players enjoy, but I think I'm starting to get through to their RPing side (one at a time, heh heh).