Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-27-03, 05:14 PM	I know this comes up all the time, but I don't use XP IMC and I was wondering if there was a viable alternative. I've seen power components suggested, but I've rather not make every item created a quest. does anyone have another idea?
hiryuu 07-27-03, 05:22 PM	We're not currently using XP for item creation, but it's darn hard to create an item in the world in which we're playing right now. It's gonna take about a year and a half for my sorceress to make her memory-storing tiara/circlet thing (read: phylactery). If she were to ake a magical sword, it might take her a few months, and that's just not something you do while traveling.
seandpconners@aol.com 07-27-03, 05:33 PM	Maybe what you could do is have a system that you have to give up hit points to make a particular item. This would make some sort of sense if you consider wizards are week and feeble. This would also make magic items very rare but it is the only thing that might be different and work, what do you think.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-27-03, 05:39 PM	I can't really do that, Ere is High Magic, with lots of items, even consumer goods.
Stafir Ortnev 07-27-03, 05:40 PM	Yeah..I hate the idea of xp loss for item creation. I understand it to a degree..but really..xp is supposed to be a summation of your knowledge...makin it hard to say..."hey you made a magic item...ya know what? you just forgot that book you read before yous tarted also" Dosn't really make sense to me, heh :) With that said..a good effective way..is to make it somehow make the character weary/tired. Perhaps simply giving a negative modifierto their rolls..maybe restricting the use of spells (less spells per day?)..perhaps dropping their attributes a bit (maybe even permanently for the more powerful items). And simply figure out how much rest..or how long they need to recover from the item creation. Of course..this spurs on the idea that being held back for a few days would be somehow bad in the world..which is up to the DM. I guess this is why the system is set up as it is...so that for those DM's who don't want to make stuff happen in the world constantly..or who are fine with the world revolving around the character. And therefore there needs to be a bigger penalty than something that goes away over time. Now..if your willin to go on with stuff happening when the players arn't adventuring...this might be the best idea..as its either stay behind (and miss something)...or go out there in a weakened state.
Dreamstryder 07-27-03, 05:49 PM	You could prevent them from gaining xp up to the xp cost (instead of losing already gained xp); when the party gets a buttload o' treasure, instead of getting a bunch of xp, the wizard sets aside some of the xp she would gain (or all of it, if she wants) toward the creation of the 1337 doo-hicky she's working on. She doesn't finish the item until the xp cost is met (you need to put in the work, right?). Instead of practicing other skills and combat maneuvers, or paying much attention to the task you've just overcome, you're concentrating on making your item. It's still an xp cost, but it might make more sense than losing already gained xp.
Stafir Ortnev 07-27-03, 05:52 PM	He dosn't use XP :P..so thats no good for him.
Heron_Marked_Blade 07-27-03, 06:24 PM	I've been tossing some ideas around regarding magic items and XP cost, since I don't like the current system much either. I've thought about using power components, but have the PC arrange for other adventuring groups to find the components for him, or have him purchase them from someone. Having him haring off after spell ingredients all the time could detract from the group's fun. The experience cost for an item would then translate into either A) taking time to look for the item, or B) spending lots of gold on the component. So he'd either spend his time and effort, or more money (paying for someone else's time and effort) in order to create the item. I've considered another idea (primarily for spontaneous casters) regarding enchanted items...if a sorcerer or cleric wants an enchanted item, he can spend some time at the beginning of each day "creating" the item. To do so, he has to meet all the prerequisites and have the item to be enchanted in front of him. Depending on the bonus and the effect of the item (the cost in gold and in exp), the sorcerer "dedicates" a certain number of his spell-slots to create that item for that day. The enchantments on the item only last for a certain time (level x2 or something) after which time they fade, but the caster does not get his spell-slots back until [level x4] time has passed since he created the item. I'm not too happy with this method, and I'm still working on it trying to keep it balanced. It seems a lot more spontaneous, which would fit sorcerers. I'll post any more ideas I have.
Ideki 07-27-03, 08:41 PM	My idea is this: first, make the GP cost of making the item 75% of the base price. This would discourage people from frivolously making tons of scrolls or potions or whatnot, but it wouldn't forever cripple them for doing so. Then, for items whose bace price is above a certain point, they suffer a certain amount of temporary damage to all their abilities based on the base cost (and this damage could only be healed by rest, not by magic), to reflect that creating such items is quite draining but not forever crippling them. Any thoughts on this?
Nephet 07-27-03, 09:01 PM	I've never been fond of PCs creating magic items because I don't think D&D is a factory simulation - it's an adventure game. When players get that gleam in their eye thinking "Oh boy I can make this for half price and really rack up the gold.", I roll my eyes. XP cost is a way to discourage PCs from becoming magic item factories. For this reason, from a core rules POV, I'm in favor of it. However, in the group I DM the PCs who make magic items don't do it in order to sell them so I allow non-xp alternative costs - gp only for low power items and a combination of gp and power components for the rest. The formula I use is adding 1/5 the base cost in either gold (for low power items like scrolls and potions) or a combination of gold and power components for the rest.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-27-03, 09:08 PM	Well the reason its coming up now is that the PCs are epic and are getting to take time doing things. They have a city/ship to run and one of the things they want to do is open trade with other planar cities with unique items. Before, I just did the 75% gp thing, but it really isn't that profitable. Ironically, I'm looking for a way to make them item factories. ;)
Dartanel 07-27-03, 09:13 PM	In the end, the cost of magic item creation has to just be something so restrictive that everyone will always think twice about making something. XP is used because that's something real and permanent the player can see on his character sheet going away. Plus its easiest to explain, giving up portions of your built-up life force to imbue the item with a mystical life of its own. Power components make every magic item creation into a quest of its own, at which point most adventurers would just as well go on a less specific quest and use whatever they find. You say you're using a high magic world, right? So in a world were magic items are more common, item creation would be equally less restricted. In such case it might only require materials and time. But if you don't want PCs making things left right and center, make it require more money and time. Say, for instance, magic items can only be suffused with sufficient magical energy for permanent effects at specialized ley line nexuses or a similar place of mystical power. Now in this world, such sites would almost all be controlled by someone who would probably charge a hefty rental fee at best for the use of the site. And the nature of the mystical suffusion process increases the creation time to a week per 1000gp.
Yankee 07-27-03, 09:33 PM	The PCs are epic you say? How epic? You could let the spellcaster pay the (staggering) gp & xp cost of a 'wish unlimited times per day' item, which really only powers item creation. Wish costs xp to use and can create magic items right? Why not have this mega epic item which provides the xp component for item creation. Then you could have enemy nation/planes try to sabotage it, steal it, etc... Fun campaign stuff like that. Besides, a factory is costly to set up, but makes production more efficient in the real world, why not your game?
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-27-03, 09:36 PM	But I don't use XP. That's the problem.
Nephet 07-27-03, 11:08 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland ... Ironically, I'm looking for a way to make them item factories. ;) To each his own. I'd go the power component route if the PCs are going to need to procure the components themselves. If not, just go GP. One interesting idea that I haven't thought through yet would be to create a magic item by acquiring a negative level. How they'd remove this negative level might require the sacrificing of magic items of comparable worth or by creating items that drain levels.When the item drains enough levels the maker gets the negative level(s) removed.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-27-03, 11:15 PM	These are all great ideas, guys, but I think my situation is unique. I wonder: How unbalancing would it be just to charge 30% of market price.
Dartanel 07-28-03, 12:04 AM	If the enemies get the same rate, not at all. Just keep in mind the increased paperwork involved with having your NPCs tote around 40% more magical gear.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-28-03, 11:10 AM	Well, see they're making this stuff to pay for things on their city/ship. Its not going toward making them more powerful, just more popular. Unless they're actually turning the city into an army -- which I wouldn't put past them.
devinmdp 07-28-03, 11:38 PM	If you want a low magic world, have them giveup stats. After all, many fantasy archetypes involve the creator imbuing the item with a piece of himself. The stat given up would relate to the powers. If 1 stat per item is too much, keep track of items by saying that for every 500XP you could have had to have given up to create an item, you lose a stat. Frankly, magic item creation rules are broken in 3rd edition for reasons I will post elsewhere. Devin
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-28-03, 11:44 PM	I'm actually running just the opposite. Very high magic.