Alternative to automatic miss [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternative to automatic miss [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Raynard the Black
08-24-03, 07:52 AM I and by group have been using the critical system since it's inception in 3.0. We have however always thought that a "fumble" system should also be in place to make things fair.

What happens in our group is this. If you roll a natural "1" on your roll to hit you have made a potential fumble. You must then roll the d20 again and add the same modifiers that applied to the first roll. If you do not beat the target's AC on the 2nd try you have confirmed the fumble and provoke an attack of opportunity from any opponent able to take advantage of it.

We have been using this for a while and it works great. It allows people with high attack bonuses to pass the 2nd roll and avoid the critical failure, while those with lower combat abilities get penalized for the roll.

It seems to work for us.

What do you think about it?
Brumbleroot
08-24-03, 01:17 PM well, It looks like a great system. I'm actually concidering usig it ;)
Durandal(1101)
08-24-03, 05:24 PM out of curiousity whats your crit method?
primemover003
08-24-03, 05:50 PM Why don't you use the original rule of making a dex check DC15 to confirm the fumble. This way level and class doesn't matter. Everyone will have a roughly equal chance to avoid a fumble. My group finds fumble to be too time consuming in combat. Of course we have 9 PC's so anything to streamline is gravy. We just use a nat 1 as a miss and move on.
ClamsHaveFeeling
08-24-03, 06:47 PM I like the way presented in the PHB.

Easiest, and humbles the most powerful characters sometimes.
Raynard the Black
08-25-03, 11:53 AM We use the crit method in the PHB as is. It works fine for us.

The reason we roll a second attack to confirm the fumble is those with a higher BAB will have a better chance of not fumbling. This gives fighters an even bigger advantage over other non-fighting classes.

It has been working great for my group I just thought others might like to try it.
nevick
08-25-03, 12:32 PM Very good idea =P do you apply it both ways? like, can the monster fumble?
it can be expanded like 50% AoO and 50% drop your weapon and must spend next action picking it up.

of course, i played other games that had entire tables to determine what happens if you fumble.. quite annoying and easily over done =P
08-25-03, 04:13 PM
08-26-03, 09:09 AM
Yes monsters can fumble as well. The rule applies across the board.

I also like the rule about the instant fumble/kill... Roll a 1, Roll a 1 to confirm, and roll another miss to kill yourself....Hahaha. That's great!

I think that against a more heavily armored opponent that you should fumble more as they are more likely a better skilled opponent then a lesser armored opponent. It really comes down to what your skill level is though.
Twisted Puppy
08-26-03, 10:26 AM I use the old rule: on an attack role of a natural "1", make a reflex save DC 15. Failure means a fumble: weapon flies out of your hand, bowstring breaks, etc. Rolling a "1" on the reflex save means that the arrow you fired into a melee hits a random friendly target (they do make another to hit roll, "1" simply misses), or your weapon hits a friendly and does some damage if they are in the weapon's flight path. Had a rogue with a reflex save modifier of 17 fumble twice in one session.. the first time hit an ally with a thrown dagger, the second time threw his +3 rapier away and it landed right next to the evil wizard they were fighting - who picked it up, said "thanks!" - and teleported away.
My monsters have had similar mishaps - one fumbled and then rolled a (confirmed) critical on his buddy with a Great Axe. Do remember that monsters using natural weapons can't fumble, a "1" simply misses.
We also use the instant kill rule: nat 20 + nat 20 + hit = instant kill.
starfire311
08-26-03, 11:58 AM I use a very similar method to Raynard for fumbles
If you roll a nat 1 then roll to confirm the fumble by missing on a follow-up then you provoke an attack of oppurtunity... If the follow-up is a nat 1, roll to confirm the critical fumble by missing on another follow-up roll to hit the target... if you successfully critical fumble not only do you provoke AoO's you also may only take a standard action on you next turn. If you continue rolling nat 1's you lose the standard action.... then a move action on the following turn then the following standard action and so on so if you roll like nine 1's in a row and then miss the target you lose your next 4 turns and you provoke AoO's for this attack.

As for critical hits if on the follow-up to confirm the crit you roll a nat 20 roll another follow-up if you succeed your damage multiplier is increased by if you continue rolling Nat 20's you can continue to increase the multiplier.
so if you roll nine 20's in a row and hit your target you increase your damage multiplier by 8.

[edit confusing language]
Raist27m
08-26-03, 12:23 PM My game is similar, but I simplified it a bit. If the second roll is a five or less, then it's a fumble, and I get to determine how the fumble comes out, as appropriate to the situation.
was_fired
08-26-03, 02:34 PM Just remember this nerfs fighters while making spell casters stronger and cleric/sorc/wiz are already the strongest classes in the game. So I ask you are you giving a wizard the same chance of fumbling EVERY spell they cast? Woops sorry you rolled three ones on that mage hand you fall dead.
Twisted Puppy
08-26-03, 03:22 PM Originally posted by was_fired
Just remember this nerfs fighters while making spell casters stronger and cleric/sorc/wiz are already the strongest classes in the game. So I ask you are you giving a wizard the same chance of fumbling EVERY spell they cast? Woops sorry you rolled three ones on that mage hand you fall dead.

Not necessarily; some spells are ranged touch attacks and are subject to a fumble. Fighters, in addition to the chance of fumbling, also have the opportunity to do critical hits, while spellcasters don't unless they are using weapons instead of spells. (IMC we had a wizard pull his longbow and take out the opposing wizard with a 20/20/17 instant kill).
Raynard the Black
08-26-03, 10:14 PM Surprisingly the players in my campaign do not feel that the fighter is nerfed as the fighter class is the most popular in my game. The fighter has a better chance of passing a fumble roll as they have a higher base attack bonus than any other non-fighting class.

Mages would have the same problem as the fighter on any spell that requires an attack roll. All in all I feel that it is balanced enough to make things interesting. Remember the same fumble rules also apply to my monsters and npcs as well.

Everyone looks forward to a monster rolling a fumble as it gives them a chance to attack it for free and out of initiative sequence.

I appreciate everyone discussing all of the variants that they use as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raynard the Black 08-24-03, 07:52 AM	I and by group have been using the critical system since it's inception in 3.0. We have however always thought that a "fumble" system should also be in place to make things fair. What happens in our group is this. If you roll a natural "1" on your roll to hit you have made a potential fumble. You must then roll the d20 again and add the same modifiers that applied to the first roll. If you do not beat the target's AC on the 2nd try you have confirmed the fumble and provoke an attack of opportunity from any opponent able to take advantage of it. We have been using this for a while and it works great. It allows people with high attack bonuses to pass the 2nd roll and avoid the critical failure, while those with lower combat abilities get penalized for the roll. It seems to work for us. What do you think about it?
Brumbleroot 08-24-03, 01:17 PM	well, It looks like a great system. I'm actually concidering usig it ;)
Durandal(1101) 08-24-03, 05:24 PM	out of curiousity whats your crit method?
primemover003 08-24-03, 05:50 PM	Why don't you use the original rule of making a dex check DC15 to confirm the fumble. This way level and class doesn't matter. Everyone will have a roughly equal chance to avoid a fumble. My group finds fumble to be too time consuming in combat. Of course we have 9 PC's so anything to streamline is gravy. We just use a nat 1 as a miss and move on.
ClamsHaveFeeling 08-24-03, 06:47 PM	I like the way presented in the PHB. Easiest, and humbles the most powerful characters sometimes.
Raynard the Black 08-25-03, 11:53 AM	We use the crit method in the PHB as is. It works fine for us. The reason we roll a second attack to confirm the fumble is those with a higher BAB will have a better chance of not fumbling. This gives fighters an even bigger advantage over other non-fighting classes. It has been working great for my group I just thought others might like to try it.
nevick 08-25-03, 12:32 PM	Very good idea =P do you apply it both ways? like, can the monster fumble? it can be expanded like 50% AoO and 50% drop your weapon and must spend next action picking it up. of course, i played other games that had entire tables to determine what happens if you fumble.. quite annoying and easily over done =P
08-25-03, 04:13 PM 08-26-03, 09:09 AM	Yes monsters can fumble as well. The rule applies across the board. I also like the rule about the instant fumble/kill... Roll a 1, Roll a 1 to confirm, and roll another miss to kill yourself....Hahaha. That's great! I think that against a more heavily armored opponent that you should fumble more as they are more likely a better skilled opponent then a lesser armored opponent. It really comes down to what your skill level is though.
Twisted Puppy 08-26-03, 10:26 AM	I use the old rule: on an attack role of a natural "1", make a reflex save DC 15. Failure means a fumble: weapon flies out of your hand, bowstring breaks, etc. Rolling a "1" on the reflex save means that the arrow you fired into a melee hits a random friendly target (they do make another to hit roll, "1" simply misses), or your weapon hits a friendly and does some damage if they are in the weapon's flight path. Had a rogue with a reflex save modifier of 17 fumble twice in one session.. the first time hit an ally with a thrown dagger, the second time threw his +3 rapier away and it landed right next to the evil wizard they were fighting - who picked it up, said "thanks!" - and teleported away. My monsters have had similar mishaps - one fumbled and then rolled a (confirmed) critical on his buddy with a Great Axe. Do remember that monsters using natural weapons can't fumble, a "1" simply misses. We also use the instant kill rule: nat 20 + nat 20 + hit = instant kill.
starfire311 08-26-03, 11:58 AM	I use a very similar method to Raynard for fumbles If you roll a nat 1 then roll to confirm the fumble by missing on a follow-up then you provoke an attack of oppurtunity... If the follow-up is a nat 1, roll to confirm the critical fumble by missing on another follow-up roll to hit the target... if you successfully critical fumble not only do you provoke AoO's you also may only take a standard action on you next turn. If you continue rolling nat 1's you lose the standard action.... then a move action on the following turn then the following standard action and so on so if you roll like nine 1's in a row and then miss the target you lose your next 4 turns and you provoke AoO's for this attack. As for critical hits if on the follow-up to confirm the crit you roll a nat 20 roll another follow-up if you succeed your damage multiplier is increased by if you continue rolling Nat 20's you can continue to increase the multiplier. so if you roll nine 20's in a row and hit your target you increase your damage multiplier by 8. [edit confusing language]
Raist27m 08-26-03, 12:23 PM	My game is similar, but I simplified it a bit. If the second roll is a five or less, then it's a fumble, and I get to determine how the fumble comes out, as appropriate to the situation.
was_fired 08-26-03, 02:34 PM	Just remember this nerfs fighters while making spell casters stronger and cleric/sorc/wiz are already the strongest classes in the game. So I ask you are you giving a wizard the same chance of fumbling EVERY spell they cast? Woops sorry you rolled three ones on that mage hand you fall dead.
Twisted Puppy 08-26-03, 03:22 PM	Originally posted by was_fired Just remember this nerfs fighters while making spell casters stronger and cleric/sorc/wiz are already the strongest classes in the game. So I ask you are you giving a wizard the same chance of fumbling EVERY spell they cast? Woops sorry you rolled three ones on that mage hand you fall dead. Not necessarily; some spells are ranged touch attacks and are subject to a fumble. Fighters, in addition to the chance of fumbling, also have the opportunity to do critical hits, while spellcasters don't unless they are using weapons instead of spells. (IMC we had a wizard pull his longbow and take out the opposing wizard with a 20/20/17 instant kill).
Raynard the Black 08-26-03, 10:14 PM	Surprisingly the players in my campaign do not feel that the fighter is nerfed as the fighter class is the most popular in my game. The fighter has a better chance of passing a fumble roll as they have a higher base attack bonus than any other non-fighting class. Mages would have the same problem as the fighter on any spell that requires an attack roll. All in all I feel that it is balanced enough to make things interesting. Remember the same fumble rules also apply to my monsters and npcs as well. Everyone looks forward to a monster rolling a fumble as it gives them a chance to attack it for free and out of initiative sequence. I appreciate everyone discussing all of the variants that they use as well.