Alternative to losing levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternative to losing levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fredrik Svanberg
10-27-03, 01:49 PM Are there any hidden drawbacks to this house rule:

Whenever anything would cause a character to lose a level, eg from being raised, or level drained, you merely reduce the character's experience points to the appropriate amount. The character's actual level remains unchanged, but he will have to regain the lost experience points and it will take longer for him to reach the next level.

I suggested this to my group today and it seems to be ok to all of us, but there might be something we have missed. Can you think of any drawbacks or side-effects from playing it this way?
Fixxxer
10-27-03, 02:02 PM Well, the first drawback that became obvious to me is the fact that you're directly contradicting the rule that you can't expend enough XP that you would be below the base amount for the level you are. Now, by itself, this means nothing...but you're setting a dangerous precident for spellcasters who want to create a bunch of magic items. "But we don't really lose a level when an undead drains our XP, so why shouldn't I be allowed to drain all my XP to make these cool magic items?!?"

Secondly, you're really nerfing the power level of any creatures who have the level draining ability. Their CR is based on the idea that they're really hard to defeat because of the fact that they drain your level (which effectively weakens you), making them harder for you to kill. If you allow this house rule and you keep their CRs where they are, you're going to be giving out way too much XP for killing them (they just aren't as much of a challenge), meaning that the reduction in XP means very little.

May I ask what tirggered the desire for this house rule? Most drains can be removed relatively easily with the use of Restoration spells.
bitnine
10-27-03, 02:12 PM Originally posted by Fixxxer
Secondly, you're really nerfing the power level of any creatures who have the level draining ability. Their CR is based on the idea that they're really hard to defeat because of the fact that they drain your level (which effectively weakens you), making them harder for you to kill.

Hm? Level draining monsters instill negative levels, usually, they don't actually take away levels on the spot. It's the check made that night to shake off those negative levels that results in actual drain or not. Right? I didn't see him suggest anything about nerfing negative levels, from what I saw, which really is what has an impact in the actual battle to defeat said critters.
krichaiushii
10-27-03, 03:58 PM With a negative level, you not only lose XP, but BAB, saves, feats, skills, spells known and/or castable and sometimes attribute points.

The way the first post can be read (indeed, how I read it) is that all that is lost is the XP, and none of the other effects of level draining.

I suspect that this is what Fixxxer may be hinting at with his #2. But I could be wrong - in which case, I apologize to Fixxxer for putting words into his mouth.
Thelon Fairblade
10-27-03, 04:45 PM The actual level loss doesn't occur until 24 hours later, when you make the Fort save to resist it. The immediate effect is "-1 to all actions" per negative level.

I have toyed with an "experience debt" idea too. You never actually lose XP - you just accumulate a "debt" that must be "paid off" before new XP can be gained. So if oyu would have lost 3500 XP, you now have a debt of 3500 you must earn before any new XP is acquired.

For making magic items, I couldn't decide on a rule:
a) Making magic items actually burns XP -- so a level drained Mage *could* spend his XP to make items, even while having an XP debt to pay off.
b) Making magic items incurs the same debt - but you can't do more "defficit spending" of XP than 1 full level. I.e. a Level 7 mage could spend upto 6000 xp (the amount required to go from level 6 to level 7). But no acutal XP is "spent" - the character doesn't forget his experiences, he just has trouble focussing / learning new things until the spiritual exhaustion is relieved (by paying off the debt).
c) as (b) but the item crafter suffers the "-1 to all actions" while he has a debt, just as if he had a negative level.
Peter Bergholtz
10-27-03, 05:48 PM Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade

I have toyed with an "experience debt" idea too. You never actually lose XP - you just accumulate a "debt" that must be "paid off" before new XP can be gained. So if oyu would have lost 3500 XP, you now have a debt of 3500 you must earn before any new XP is acquired.

That´s about it really.
Fredrik Svanberg
10-27-03, 07:49 PM Originally posted by krichaiushii
With a negative level, you not only lose XP, but BAB, saves, feats, skills, spells known and/or castable and sometimes attribute points.

The way the first post can be read (indeed, how I read it) is that all that is lost is the XP, and none of the other effects of level draining.

I suspect that this is what Fixxxer may be hinting at with his #2. But I could be wrong - in which case, I apologize to Fixxxer for putting words into his mouth.

No, negative levels would still affect you, but permanent level loss would not. Indeed, the xp debt is a better way to describe it.
Fixxxer
10-28-03, 02:49 AM Originally posted by krichaiushii
With a negative level, you not only lose XP, but BAB, saves, feats, skills, spells known and/or castable and sometimes attribute points.

The way the first post can be read (indeed, how I read it) is that all that is lost is the XP, and none of the other effects of level draining.

I suspect that this is what Fixxxer may be hinting at with his #2. But I could be wrong - in which case, I apologize to Fixxxer for putting words into his mouth.

That's what I was going for. As I understand it, a level loss doesn't occur until later, but there's still an immediate penalty. In retrospect, I worded my previous post badly. My apologies.
Rabe
10-28-03, 09:45 AM There is nothing basically unbalanced with the idea.
If you are worried about item building, there is also a simple way out: in order to create an item you must have a positive balance and cannot go into the negative.

I am using negative levels and level drain as it is written, because it is one of the things filling my players with dread (even if it happened as good as never in 19 years). They show much more apprehension and temerity when they realise they face a necromancer and his spectres, than when they meet a dragon and her brood...:)

Rabe
xect
10-28-03, 11:29 AM Originally posted by Fixxxer
Well, the first drawback that became obvious to me is the fact that you're directly contradicting the rule that you can't expend enough XP that you would be below the base amount for the level you are. Now, by itself, this means nothing...but you're setting a dangerous precident for spellcasters who want to create a bunch of magic items. "But we don't really lose a level when an undead drains our XP, so why shouldn't I be allowed to drain all my XP to make these cool magic items?!?"
That one is simple:
"Because I say so".

I think the original post has merit in that it certainly saves both the players and the DM a lot of trouble.
Twisted Puppy
10-28-03, 12:43 PM Originally posted by xect
I think the original post has merit in that it certainly saves both the players and the DM a lot of trouble.

It has the advantage of not making the player redo his character sheet, and the "XP debt" balances out in the end in that the player still ends up at a lower level. Personally, though, I would go ahead and have them drop a level, since (especially at higher levels) it may take a while to regain the lost level.

One thing which you can try, as an Evil DM, is that when the character is resurrected, he gets a vision of a lovely woman that says his friends need him at his best, and he has only to take her hand and he will be at the level he was...
If he agrees, take his character sheet and add a level of tainted (warrior or spellcaster) in place of the lost level - the beautiful woman in the vision was actually a succubus. That was in the Dragon magazine about a year ago, and it offers some fascinating roleplay possibilities.
Otto the Bugbear
10-28-03, 05:28 PM We currently use basically this exact system. This is how I typed it up for the group to read:

Instead of losing levels, character's loose experience points. When their current experience points become insufficient to qualify for their level, they gain a negative level. Their current experience points determines how many negative levels a character has; i.e. experience points equal to 3 levels below your listed level, you have 3 negative levels.

So far it's worked out very well. Making magic items isn't a problem with this considering how far behind a character will be compared to the rest of the party. I think of it similar to adding a template or using a +X LA race; it just usually doesn't work out so well for the character.

Also, just go ahead and try it. If it works out then that's great. If not, just remove the rule. It's not like you'll be denied a Nobel prize for using an idea you thought was good. :D

Cheers

Otto :)
Peter Bergholtz
10-28-03, 05:49 PM Originally posted by Twisted Puppy
If he agrees, take his character sheet and add a level of tainted (warrior or spellcaster) in place of the lost level - the beautiful woman in the vision was actually a succubus. That was in the Dragon magazine about a year ago, and it offers some fascinating roleplay possibilities.

It sure does. Must remember that.. :devil:
Peter Bergholtz
10-28-03, 05:50 PM Originally posted by Otto the Bugbear
We currently use basically this exact system. This is how I typed it up for the group to read:

Instead of losing levels, character's loose experience points. When their current experience points become insufficient to qualify for their level, they gain a negative level. Their current experience points determines how many negative levels a character has; i.e. experience points equal to 3 levels below your listed level, you have 3 negative levels.

So far it's worked out very well. Making magic items isn't a problem with this considering how far behind a character will be compared to the rest of the party. I think of it similar to adding a template or using a +X LA race; it just usually doesn't work out so well for the character.

Also, just go ahead and try it. If it works out then that's great. If not, just remove the rule. It's not like you'll be denied a Nobel prize for using an idea you thought was good. :D

Cheers

Otto :)

How much XP do they loose Otto? Is it levelbased or a fixed sum..?
primemover003
10-28-03, 06:20 PM Actually Andy Collins has a system like this on his website andycollins.net (http://andycollins.net). He uses Negative levels when someone is raised or resurrected. Instead of a PC spending 30 minutes trying to figure out what their new abilites, skills, feats etc are, give them a special neagtive level.

-1 to attacks, skills, saves, abiliy checks; -5 hp; and –1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level). also they lose the 1 spell or spell slot from the highest level castable.

This remains till they gain a level again, and they remove the negative level.

Now I reduce their XP to the midpoint of the previous level, and when the gain a new level make them roll the Fort save vs. the attack (DC usually in their stats) or the creature that killed them (10 + 1/2 creatures HD). If they make it they regain the XP lost, if not it's permanent.
Xavim
10-28-03, 07:36 PM Originally posted by xect
That one is simple:
"Because I say so".

Excessive use of this reason results only in dissatisfied and often angrey players who just might end up leaving your ass alone at the table.

Honestly how hard is it to come up with a REASONABLE ban? Put a little thought into it and everyone will be happy. Say that the energy drain merely clouds a character's soul with taint while item creation actually consumes one's essence. Thus they couldn't spend as much exp as they want on item creation or they'd reduce their personal power to minescule levels.

Even if you decided to allow them to put as much exp into making items as they want, a player trying to do this will have a handfull of magical items, but will also be stuck at their current level for next to ever.

Because I say so, is a lazy, infuriating, cop out and should never be issued to any group. Asking for complience with reasons for your distaste is a far better way to deal with this problem.
Nephet
10-28-03, 08:08 PM I think the OP's idea seems fine. It penalizes without creating the bookkeeping problems of the core level loss mechanic.

I don't like the idea of losing xp or levels either - it's highly unrealistic in that it's too mechanical. I use a system where if the character is supposed to lose a level he instead loses an ability score, skill points, save bonus, bab, feat, spell slot or something along that line, sometimes something made up on the fly. This will not work with rules-lawyers as players of course because I decide more or less arbitrarily (using some amount of randomness) on what gets drained or what penalty gets assumed.
Otto the Bugbear
10-28-03, 08:25 PM Originally posted by Peter Bergholtz
How much XP do they loose Otto? Is it levelbased or a fixed sum..?

Right now they lose enough to place them at the mid point of the next lower level. That may change in the future (minimum needed for next lowest level), but it hasn't been a problem so far.

Cheers

Otto :)
Peter Bergholtz
10-28-03, 11:02 PM Another idea We had was to take away 1000 xp per lvl of the raised PC. That would reduce them about 1 lvl down.
Thelon Fairblade
10-29-03, 09:35 AM I like the "while your current XP is below the minimum for your level, you gain a 'negative level'" approach.

As for the XP removed, we remove exactly half of what it takes to reach the next level. If you are level 7, you lose 3500 XP (half of the 7000 is takes for 8th level). So if you were 200 XP away from leveling up (which the deceased druid IMC was), you actually don't even drop a level (or, in the proposed system, gain a negative level). However, say you had just barely made level 7 -- you would end up about 500 xp below half in the previous level.

Remember that "Levels" are arbitrary concepts to deliniate training and power, not "Save Points" in a console game...
Snord
10-29-03, 10:33 AM It seems to me that raise dead should be a powerful thing so I don't like to use it. I also make combat kinda deadly so characters do tend to get beaten down pretty frequently if they rush into it without thinking. But, its all about the characters in my book. They should not die constantly because it ruins the story by turing every session into a mourning role play instead of a fun adventure. So if the pc's are foolish enough to die I like to give them some other penalty; like a lost eye, or a limp or a missing finger, or a coma. This keeps things moving along a story line. It also keeps the power to raise dead in the category of a miracle. But, most importantly it does not make the characters feel like they are going backward in levels instead of forward. I hate to see players give up characters they love because its more fulfilling for them to make a new one that is the same level as the rest of the party.
igronimus
10-29-03, 11:22 AM If a character is affected by a negative level and fails his save after the 24 hour period, I do the following:

The characters xp goes to the amount specified for the level loss.

The character doesn't actually change anything on his sheet, he just retains the -1s and spell loss that you get from an energy drain until you get enough xp to regain that level, at that point the minuses go away (you've gotten your level back).

The reason I started doing this is because it's a real pain to de-level, especially when you don't know what you rolled for your hitpoints. The character could gain or lose hit points depending on what they rolled (I've tried to keep track, but you forget sometimes).
Thelon Fairblade
10-29-03, 12:35 PM (I actually make my players record what they acquired at each level. Skill points, hit points, abilities, feats, spells, etc. An@l, I know... but I also provide the character sheets, and keep them updated in most cases too. So if you lose two levels, I know *exactly* what you lost, down to the last skill point...)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fredrik Svanberg 10-27-03, 01:49 PM	Are there any hidden drawbacks to this house rule: Whenever anything would cause a character to lose a level, eg from being raised, or level drained, you merely reduce the character's experience points to the appropriate amount. The character's actual level remains unchanged, but he will have to regain the lost experience points and it will take longer for him to reach the next level. I suggested this to my group today and it seems to be ok to all of us, but there might be something we have missed. Can you think of any drawbacks or side-effects from playing it this way?
Fixxxer 10-27-03, 02:02 PM	Well, the first drawback that became obvious to me is the fact that you're directly contradicting the rule that you can't expend enough XP that you would be below the base amount for the level you are. Now, by itself, this means nothing...but you're setting a dangerous precident for spellcasters who want to create a bunch of magic items. "But we don't really lose a level when an undead drains our XP, so why shouldn't I be allowed to drain all my XP to make these cool magic items?!?" Secondly, you're really nerfing the power level of any creatures who have the level draining ability. Their CR is based on the idea that they're really hard to defeat because of the fact that they drain your level (which effectively weakens you), making them harder for you to kill. If you allow this house rule and you keep their CRs where they are, you're going to be giving out way too much XP for killing them (they just aren't as much of a challenge), meaning that the reduction in XP means very little. May I ask what tirggered the desire for this house rule? Most drains can be removed relatively easily with the use of Restoration spells.
bitnine 10-27-03, 02:12 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Secondly, you're really nerfing the power level of any creatures who have the level draining ability. Their CR is based on the idea that they're really hard to defeat because of the fact that they drain your level (which effectively weakens you), making them harder for you to kill. Hm? Level draining monsters instill negative levels, usually, they don't actually take away levels on the spot. It's the check made that night to shake off those negative levels that results in actual drain or not. Right? I didn't see him suggest anything about nerfing negative levels, from what I saw, which really is what has an impact in the actual battle to defeat said critters.
krichaiushii 10-27-03, 03:58 PM	With a negative level, you not only lose XP, but BAB, saves, feats, skills, spells known and/or castable and sometimes attribute points. The way the first post can be read (indeed, how I read it) is that all that is lost is the XP, and none of the other effects of level draining. I suspect that this is what Fixxxer may be hinting at with his #2. But I could be wrong - in which case, I apologize to Fixxxer for putting words into his mouth.
Thelon Fairblade 10-27-03, 04:45 PM	The actual level loss doesn't occur until 24 hours later, when you make the Fort save to resist it. The immediate effect is "-1 to all actions" per negative level. I have toyed with an "experience debt" idea too. You never actually lose XP - you just accumulate a "debt" that must be "paid off" before new XP can be gained. So if oyu would have lost 3500 XP, you now have a debt of 3500 you must earn before any new XP is acquired. For making magic items, I couldn't decide on a rule: a) Making magic items actually burns XP -- so a level drained Mage could spend his XP to make items, even while having an XP debt to pay off. b) Making magic items incurs the same debt - but you can't do more "defficit spending" of XP than 1 full level. I.e. a Level 7 mage could spend upto 6000 xp (the amount required to go from level 6 to level 7). But no acutal XP is "spent" - the character doesn't forget his experiences, he just has trouble focussing / learning new things until the spiritual exhaustion is relieved (by paying off the debt). c) as (b) but the item crafter suffers the "-1 to all actions" while he has a debt, just as if he had a negative level.
Peter Bergholtz 10-27-03, 05:48 PM	Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade I have toyed with an "experience debt" idea too. You never actually lose XP - you just accumulate a "debt" that must be "paid off" before new XP can be gained. So if oyu would have lost 3500 XP, you now have a debt of 3500 you must earn before any new XP is acquired. That´s about it really.
Fredrik Svanberg 10-27-03, 07:49 PM	Originally posted by krichaiushii With a negative level, you not only lose XP, but BAB, saves, feats, skills, spells known and/or castable and sometimes attribute points. The way the first post can be read (indeed, how I read it) is that all that is lost is the XP, and none of the other effects of level draining. I suspect that this is what Fixxxer may be hinting at with his #2. But I could be wrong - in which case, I apologize to Fixxxer for putting words into his mouth. No, negative levels would still affect you, but permanent level loss would not. Indeed, the xp debt is a better way to describe it.
Fixxxer 10-28-03, 02:49 AM	Originally posted by krichaiushii With a negative level, you not only lose XP, but BAB, saves, feats, skills, spells known and/or castable and sometimes attribute points. The way the first post can be read (indeed, how I read it) is that all that is lost is the XP, and none of the other effects of level draining. I suspect that this is what Fixxxer may be hinting at with his #2. But I could be wrong - in which case, I apologize to Fixxxer for putting words into his mouth. That's what I was going for. As I understand it, a level loss doesn't occur until later, but there's still an immediate penalty. In retrospect, I worded my previous post badly. My apologies.
Rabe 10-28-03, 09:45 AM	There is nothing basically unbalanced with the idea. If you are worried about item building, there is also a simple way out: in order to create an item you must have a positive balance and cannot go into the negative. I am using negative levels and level drain as it is written, because it is one of the things filling my players with dread (even if it happened as good as never in 19 years). They show much more apprehension and temerity when they realise they face a necromancer and his spectres, than when they meet a dragon and her brood...:) Rabe
xect 10-28-03, 11:29 AM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Well, the first drawback that became obvious to me is the fact that you're directly contradicting the rule that you can't expend enough XP that you would be below the base amount for the level you are. Now, by itself, this means nothing...but you're setting a dangerous precident for spellcasters who want to create a bunch of magic items. "But we don't really lose a level when an undead drains our XP, so why shouldn't I be allowed to drain all my XP to make these cool magic items?!?" That one is simple: "Because I say so". I think the original post has merit in that it certainly saves both the players and the DM a lot of trouble.
Twisted Puppy 10-28-03, 12:43 PM	Originally posted by xect I think the original post has merit in that it certainly saves both the players and the DM a lot of trouble. It has the advantage of not making the player redo his character sheet, and the "XP debt" balances out in the end in that the player still ends up at a lower level. Personally, though, I would go ahead and have them drop a level, since (especially at higher levels) it may take a while to regain the lost level. One thing which you can try, as an Evil DM, is that when the character is resurrected, he gets a vision of a lovely woman that says his friends need him at his best, and he has only to take her hand and he will be at the level he was... If he agrees, take his character sheet and add a level of tainted (warrior or spellcaster) in place of the lost level - the beautiful woman in the vision was actually a succubus. That was in the Dragon magazine about a year ago, and it offers some fascinating roleplay possibilities.
Otto the Bugbear 10-28-03, 05:28 PM	We currently use basically this exact system. This is how I typed it up for the group to read: Instead of losing levels, character's loose experience points. When their current experience points become insufficient to qualify for their level, they gain a negative level. Their current experience points determines how many negative levels a character has; i.e. experience points equal to 3 levels below your listed level, you have 3 negative levels. So far it's worked out very well. Making magic items isn't a problem with this considering how far behind a character will be compared to the rest of the party. I think of it similar to adding a template or using a +X LA race; it just usually doesn't work out so well for the character. Also, just go ahead and try it. If it works out then that's great. If not, just remove the rule. It's not like you'll be denied a Nobel prize for using an idea you thought was good. :D Cheers Otto :)
Peter Bergholtz 10-28-03, 05:49 PM	Originally posted by Twisted Puppy If he agrees, take his character sheet and add a level of tainted (warrior or spellcaster) in place of the lost level - the beautiful woman in the vision was actually a succubus. That was in the Dragon magazine about a year ago, and it offers some fascinating roleplay possibilities. It sure does. Must remember that.. :devil:
Peter Bergholtz 10-28-03, 05:50 PM	Originally posted by Otto the Bugbear We currently use basically this exact system. This is how I typed it up for the group to read: Instead of losing levels, character's loose experience points. When their current experience points become insufficient to qualify for their level, they gain a negative level. Their current experience points determines how many negative levels a character has; i.e. experience points equal to 3 levels below your listed level, you have 3 negative levels. So far it's worked out very well. Making magic items isn't a problem with this considering how far behind a character will be compared to the rest of the party. I think of it similar to adding a template or using a +X LA race; it just usually doesn't work out so well for the character. Also, just go ahead and try it. If it works out then that's great. If not, just remove the rule. It's not like you'll be denied a Nobel prize for using an idea you thought was good. :D Cheers Otto :) How much XP do they loose Otto? Is it levelbased or a fixed sum..?
primemover003 10-28-03, 06:20 PM	Actually Andy Collins has a system like this on his website andycollins.net (http://andycollins.net). He uses Negative levels when someone is raised or resurrected. Instead of a PC spending 30 minutes trying to figure out what their new abilites, skills, feats etc are, give them a special neagtive level. -1 to attacks, skills, saves, abiliy checks; -5 hp; and –1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level). also they lose the 1 spell or spell slot from the highest level castable. This remains till they gain a level again, and they remove the negative level. Now I reduce their XP to the midpoint of the previous level, and when the gain a new level make them roll the Fort save vs. the attack (DC usually in their stats) or the creature that killed them (10 + 1/2 creatures HD). If they make it they regain the XP lost, if not it's permanent.
Xavim 10-28-03, 07:36 PM	Originally posted by xect That one is simple: "Because I say so". Excessive use of this reason results only in dissatisfied and often angrey players who just might end up leaving your ass alone at the table. Honestly how hard is it to come up with a REASONABLE ban? Put a little thought into it and everyone will be happy. Say that the energy drain merely clouds a character's soul with taint while item creation actually consumes one's essence. Thus they couldn't spend as much exp as they want on item creation or they'd reduce their personal power to minescule levels. Even if you decided to allow them to put as much exp into making items as they want, a player trying to do this will have a handfull of magical items, but will also be stuck at their current level for next to ever. Because I say so, is a lazy, infuriating, cop out and should never be issued to any group. Asking for complience with reasons for your distaste is a far better way to deal with this problem.
Nephet 10-28-03, 08:08 PM	I think the OP's idea seems fine. It penalizes without creating the bookkeeping problems of the core level loss mechanic. I don't like the idea of losing xp or levels either - it's highly unrealistic in that it's too mechanical. I use a system where if the character is supposed to lose a level he instead loses an ability score, skill points, save bonus, bab, feat, spell slot or something along that line, sometimes something made up on the fly. This will not work with rules-lawyers as players of course because I decide more or less arbitrarily (using some amount of randomness) on what gets drained or what penalty gets assumed.
Otto the Bugbear 10-28-03, 08:25 PM	Originally posted by Peter Bergholtz How much XP do they loose Otto? Is it levelbased or a fixed sum..? Right now they lose enough to place them at the mid point of the next lower level. That may change in the future (minimum needed for next lowest level), but it hasn't been a problem so far. Cheers Otto :)
Peter Bergholtz 10-28-03, 11:02 PM	Another idea We had was to take away 1000 xp per lvl of the raised PC. That would reduce them about 1 lvl down.
Thelon Fairblade 10-29-03, 09:35 AM	I like the "while your current XP is below the minimum for your level, you gain a 'negative level'" approach. As for the XP removed, we remove exactly half of what it takes to reach the next level. If you are level 7, you lose 3500 XP (half of the 7000 is takes for 8th level). So if you were 200 XP away from leveling up (which the deceased druid IMC was), you actually don't even drop a level (or, in the proposed system, gain a negative level). However, say you had just barely made level 7 -- you would end up about 500 xp below half in the previous level. Remember that "Levels" are arbitrary concepts to deliniate training and power, not "Save Points" in a console game...
Snord 10-29-03, 10:33 AM	It seems to me that raise dead should be a powerful thing so I don't like to use it. I also make combat kinda deadly so characters do tend to get beaten down pretty frequently if they rush into it without thinking. But, its all about the characters in my book. They should not die constantly because it ruins the story by turing every session into a mourning role play instead of a fun adventure. So if the pc's are foolish enough to die I like to give them some other penalty; like a lost eye, or a limp or a missing finger, or a coma. This keeps things moving along a story line. It also keeps the power to raise dead in the category of a miracle. But, most importantly it does not make the characters feel like they are going backward in levels instead of forward. I hate to see players give up characters they love because its more fulfilling for them to make a new one that is the same level as the rest of the party.
igronimus 10-29-03, 11:22 AM	If a character is affected by a negative level and fails his save after the 24 hour period, I do the following: The characters xp goes to the amount specified for the level loss. The character doesn't actually change anything on his sheet, he just retains the -1s and spell loss that you get from an energy drain until you get enough xp to regain that level, at that point the minuses go away (you've gotten your level back). The reason I started doing this is because it's a real pain to de-level, especially when you don't know what you rolled for your hitpoints. The character could gain or lose hit points depending on what they rolled (I've tried to keep track, but you forget sometimes).
Thelon Fairblade 10-29-03, 12:35 PM	(I actually make my players record what they acquired at each level. Skill points, hit points, abilities, feats, spells, etc. An@l, I know... but I also provide the character sheets, and keep them updated in most cases too. So if you lose two levels, I know exactly what you lost, down to the last skill point...)