Alternatives to Alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternatives to Alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Windbit
02-16-07, 11:58 PM I'm in the process of learing how to play DnD. Once I have a firm grasp on the rules, I'm going to DM for a group of four of my friends. I'm already hard at work on my first campaign setting.

I'm a bit of a philosopher, though, and I don't agree with the concept of alignment. I find it to be too limiting, and I've read the opinions of other DMs who don't lke alignment. So the point of this thread is this: do you use an alternative to alignment?

I've basically taken a system called allegiances I found on the Internet and tacked on a part called "View." The two views are Subjective and Objective. Subjective characters don't believe that actions are inherently good or evil, while an Objective character does. Objective characters are more likely to have strong opinions, and can be stubborn in their beliefs. Objective characters are also more likely to follow tradition. Just because two characters are objective doesn't mean they think alike.
That's where allegiances come in. Characters can choose three allegiances, ranked in order of personal importance. Allegiances are more important for Objective characters because different Objective characters can have radically different beliefs on what is right and what is wrong. For example, an Objective character who has an allegiance to Heironeous will obviously have different beliefs than one who has an allegiance to Gruumsh.
Subjective characters can have allegiances too, but they are less likely to choose tradition, ideals, or religion for their allegiances. Selfish characters can be said to have their highest allegiance be to their own self interests.

Any thoughts on my View/Allegiance system?
Callista
02-17-07, 12:00 AM You're going to have to find a way to make the Good/Evil spells (such as Protection from Evil or Detect Good) transfer over into your system. Also, alignment based classes--mainly clerics and paladins--may have trouble.

All in all, I think it's a lot of work for little payoff; but then, you obviously enjoy the work, so I'm not stopping you.
lastknightleft
02-17-07, 12:01 AM honestly, I think it just does the same thing that most people argue about the alignment system and just states them more openly, also how do you quantify demons/angels and spells like detect evil?
Vaalingrade Ashland
02-17-07, 12:47 AM http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=627837

This might be to your liking.
inthesto
02-17-07, 01:00 AM Easy solution: Deep-six alignment all together along with any mechanics dependent on it.

In terms of gameplay, the only real problem this provides is that paladins get an even shorter end of the stick, though I personally think that you can substitute the flavor with a Crusader (ToB) or Knight (PHB2).

Personally, I think alignment is a great tool for shaping characters, but as soon as it starts impacting gameplay (which never takes very long), it creates more problems than it solves.
Ramses III
02-17-07, 01:01 AM I use alignment, but I don't interpret it too strictly -- that is to say, I don't demand that characters take specific actions based on their alignment. I view it as personal tendency in most cases, rather than moral absolutism. However I do make an exception in the case of things like paladins and most outsiders.

I also run an Eberron game. The setting material states that alignment is intentionally a more "blurry" construct than in most D&D games; for instance no creature is required by its type to be a specific alignment (i.e. red dragons and werewolves aren't Chaotic Evil by default, and can be any alignment). Of the PCs in the campaign I'm running, 4 are Neutral and one is Chaotic Evil.

As stated above, the biggest perk to using alignment in the game is that there are game elements that use it as a mechanic. The idea that one's philosophy can be of life-or-death importance in a fantasy world appeals to me. It sounds like you have a good idea for a functional alternate system though, so go for it and good luck!
kelvinaw273
02-17-07, 10:47 AM I've considered using a system of Traits to supplement alignment - if your character has more positive than negative traits on the moral axis, they are good, more negative and they are evil, and the same on the ethical law/chaos axis.
Arrowhen
02-17-07, 11:48 AM I'm not trying to be insulting here, but if you don't have a "firm grasp on the rules" yet, you have no business house-ruling things.
Vaalingrade Ashland
02-17-07, 01:03 PM Nah, alignment is one of those things that needs to be gotten in the first trimester or it will result in deformity.
ElIsRa
02-17-07, 05:52 PM Personally, I think that if you don't understand all of the rules yet, you should just stick with the standard alignment system. Alignment can have a huge effect on the balence of the game, even though it doesn't seem so. I've played with several different alignment (sub)systems, some have worked beuatifully, others have spun out of control and crushed me and my campaign under the wieght of unforseen consquences.
Leo
02-17-07, 08:54 PM In real life, you don't have uber powerfull gods that grant you powers for following an alignment.

Philosofer:"There's no such thing as true good or evil"

Evil cleric:"BLASPHEMY"

philosopher dies

See?

The paladin, for example, gets cool powers just for being a good boy.

note:blashpemy is a high level evil spell that kills or disables nonevil guys
The_Levitator
02-17-07, 09:04 PM Nah, alignment is one of those things that needs to be gotten in the first trimester or it will result in deformity.

:heehee:

That made my night! :D
Kukamunga
02-17-07, 10:39 PM I actually dont have my players choose an allignment.. rather i just silently keep track of their allignment on my side..

I feel its more realistic.. as that most people cant just tell you what allignement they are

If a player wants to know they can get a detect good/evil/law/chaos done to themselves and i will tell them where they stand.. but that has never come up and my players enjoy the lack of restriction.. as they usually end up floating within one jump from their original allignment
darkneolink
02-18-07, 12:05 AM you could use Honor instead of alignment
Khadmus
02-23-07, 01:57 PM Leo has a point. One of the core books stated that good and evil are not just words for theologists, psycologists, philosophers, and other scholars to argue over. They are ancient forces that define the fabric of reality, magic, and much more.
CroBob
02-23-07, 02:04 PM The problem is that people often see alignment as a restrictive force. You cannot do so and so because you're good, you cannot do so and so because you're chaotic, etc. It's not restrictive so much as it's decriptive. A person is evil because of what they HAVE done. A person is lawful because of what they HAVE done. It's not a strict code to follow, it's a description of how the character does, in fact, act.
Cainin
02-23-07, 02:50 PM The OP's concept sounds much like the d20 Modern version of alignment (called allegiances). I've copied this from the d20 Modern SRD.

-----

ALLEGIANCES

The allegiances system is optional.

A character may have up to three allegiances, listed in order from most important to least important. These allegiances are indications of what the character values in life, and may encompass people, organizations, or ideals. A character may have no allegiances (being either a free spirit or a lone wolf) or may change allegiances as he or she goes through life. Also, just because the character fits into a certain category of people doesn’t mean the character has to have that category as an allegiance.
If the character acts in a way that is detrimental to his or her allegiance, the GM may choose to strip the character of that allegiance (and all its benefits) and assign an allegiance more suitable to those actions.

Pledging Allegiance
A hero’s allegiance can take the form of loyalty to a person, to an organization, to a belief system, to a nation, or to an ethical or moral philosophy. In general, a character can discard an allegiance at any time, but may only gain a new allegiance after attaining a new level.
Having an allegiance implies having sufficient intelligence and wisdom to make a moral or ethical choice. As a result, a character must have Intelligence and Wisdom scores of 3 or higher in order to select allegiances.

Allegiances include, but are not limited to, the following examples.
Person or Group: This includes a leader or superior, a family, a group of linked individuals (such as a band of adventurers or a cell of secret agents), or a discrete unit within a larger organization (such as members of the character’s squad or platoon, or individuals whose safety the character is responsible for).
Organization: This may be a company or corporation, a gathering of like-minded individuals, a fraternal brotherhood, a secret society, a branch of the armed forces, a local, state, or national government, a university, an employer, or an otherwise established authority.
Nation: This may or may not be the nation that the hero currently resides in. It may be where the individual was born, or where the hero resides after emigrating to a new home.
Belief System: This is usually a particular faith or religion, but can also be a specific philosophy or school of thought. Belief systems could also include political beliefs or philosophical outlooks.
Ethical Philosophy: This describes how one feels about order, as represented by law and chaos. An individual with a lawful outlook tends to tell the truth, keep his or her word, respect authority, and honor tradition, and he or she expects others to do likewise. An individual with a chaotic outlook tends to follow his or her instincts and whims, favor new ideas and experiences, and behave in a subjective and open manner in dealings with others.
Moral Philosophy: This describes one’s attitude toward others, as represented by good and evil. An individual with a good allegiance tends to protect innocent life. This belief implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of other creatures. An evil allegiance shows a willingness to hurt, oppress, and kill others, and to debase or destroy innocent life.

Allegiances and Influence
An allegiance can create an empathic bond with others of the same allegiance. With the GM’s permission, the character gains a +2 circumstance bonus on Charisma-based skill checks when dealing with someone of the same allegiance—as long as the character has had some interaction with the other character to discover the connections and bring the bonus into play.
Sereno
02-23-07, 03:45 PM I agree 100% with CroBob ... alignment isn't really restrictive or limiting at all if you don't use it as a straight-jacket or beat your players over the head with it (ala, "No, your character wouldn't do that, you're LG.").

Any character, of any alignment, can take any action what-so-ever ... it's just that sometimes there are consequences to actions and a change of alignment is one of them.

Alignment doesn't tell you what your character can do ... what you do tells you what kind of alignment your character has.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Windbit 02-16-07, 11:58 PM	I'm in the process of learing how to play DnD. Once I have a firm grasp on the rules, I'm going to DM for a group of four of my friends. I'm already hard at work on my first campaign setting. I'm a bit of a philosopher, though, and I don't agree with the concept of alignment. I find it to be too limiting, and I've read the opinions of other DMs who don't lke alignment. So the point of this thread is this: do you use an alternative to alignment? I've basically taken a system called allegiances I found on the Internet and tacked on a part called "View." The two views are Subjective and Objective. Subjective characters don't believe that actions are inherently good or evil, while an Objective character does. Objective characters are more likely to have strong opinions, and can be stubborn in their beliefs. Objective characters are also more likely to follow tradition. Just because two characters are objective doesn't mean they think alike. That's where allegiances come in. Characters can choose three allegiances, ranked in order of personal importance. Allegiances are more important for Objective characters because different Objective characters can have radically different beliefs on what is right and what is wrong. For example, an Objective character who has an allegiance to Heironeous will obviously have different beliefs than one who has an allegiance to Gruumsh. Subjective characters can have allegiances too, but they are less likely to choose tradition, ideals, or religion for their allegiances. Selfish characters can be said to have their highest allegiance be to their own self interests. Any thoughts on my View/Allegiance system?
Callista 02-17-07, 12:00 AM	You're going to have to find a way to make the Good/Evil spells (such as Protection from Evil or Detect Good) transfer over into your system. Also, alignment based classes--mainly clerics and paladins--may have trouble. All in all, I think it's a lot of work for little payoff; but then, you obviously enjoy the work, so I'm not stopping you.
lastknightleft 02-17-07, 12:01 AM	honestly, I think it just does the same thing that most people argue about the alignment system and just states them more openly, also how do you quantify demons/angels and spells like detect evil?
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-17-07, 12:47 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=627837 This might be to your liking.
inthesto 02-17-07, 01:00 AM	Easy solution: Deep-six alignment all together along with any mechanics dependent on it. In terms of gameplay, the only real problem this provides is that paladins get an even shorter end of the stick, though I personally think that you can substitute the flavor with a Crusader (ToB) or Knight (PHB2). Personally, I think alignment is a great tool for shaping characters, but as soon as it starts impacting gameplay (which never takes very long), it creates more problems than it solves.
Ramses III 02-17-07, 01:01 AM	I use alignment, but I don't interpret it too strictly -- that is to say, I don't demand that characters take specific actions based on their alignment. I view it as personal tendency in most cases, rather than moral absolutism. However I do make an exception in the case of things like paladins and most outsiders. I also run an Eberron game. The setting material states that alignment is intentionally a more "blurry" construct than in most D&D games; for instance no creature is required by its type to be a specific alignment (i.e. red dragons and werewolves aren't Chaotic Evil by default, and can be any alignment). Of the PCs in the campaign I'm running, 4 are Neutral and one is Chaotic Evil. As stated above, the biggest perk to using alignment in the game is that there are game elements that use it as a mechanic. The idea that one's philosophy can be of life-or-death importance in a fantasy world appeals to me. It sounds like you have a good idea for a functional alternate system though, so go for it and good luck!
kelvinaw273 02-17-07, 10:47 AM	I've considered using a system of Traits to supplement alignment - if your character has more positive than negative traits on the moral axis, they are good, more negative and they are evil, and the same on the ethical law/chaos axis.
Arrowhen 02-17-07, 11:48 AM	I'm not trying to be insulting here, but if you don't have a "firm grasp on the rules" yet, you have no business house-ruling things.
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-17-07, 01:03 PM	Nah, alignment is one of those things that needs to be gotten in the first trimester or it will result in deformity.
ElIsRa 02-17-07, 05:52 PM	Personally, I think that if you don't understand all of the rules yet, you should just stick with the standard alignment system. Alignment can have a huge effect on the balence of the game, even though it doesn't seem so. I've played with several different alignment (sub)systems, some have worked beuatifully, others have spun out of control and crushed me and my campaign under the wieght of unforseen consquences.
Leo 02-17-07, 08:54 PM	In real life, you don't have uber powerfull gods that grant you powers for following an alignment. Philosofer:"There's no such thing as true good or evil" Evil cleric:"BLASPHEMY" philosopher dies See? The paladin, for example, gets cool powers just for being a good boy. note:blashpemy is a high level evil spell that kills or disables nonevil guys
The_Levitator 02-17-07, 09:04 PM	Nah, alignment is one of those things that needs to be gotten in the first trimester or it will result in deformity. :heehee: That made my night! :D
Kukamunga 02-17-07, 10:39 PM	I actually dont have my players choose an allignment.. rather i just silently keep track of their allignment on my side.. I feel its more realistic.. as that most people cant just tell you what allignement they are If a player wants to know they can get a detect good/evil/law/chaos done to themselves and i will tell them where they stand.. but that has never come up and my players enjoy the lack of restriction.. as they usually end up floating within one jump from their original allignment
darkneolink 02-18-07, 12:05 AM	you could use Honor instead of alignment
Khadmus 02-23-07, 01:57 PM	Leo has a point. One of the core books stated that good and evil are not just words for theologists, psycologists, philosophers, and other scholars to argue over. They are ancient forces that define the fabric of reality, magic, and much more.
CroBob 02-23-07, 02:04 PM	The problem is that people often see alignment as a restrictive force. You cannot do so and so because you're good, you cannot do so and so because you're chaotic, etc. It's not restrictive so much as it's decriptive. A person is evil because of what they HAVE done. A person is lawful because of what they HAVE done. It's not a strict code to follow, it's a description of how the character does, in fact, act.
Cainin 02-23-07, 02:50 PM	The OP's concept sounds much like the d20 Modern version of alignment (called allegiances). I've copied this from the d20 Modern SRD. ----- ALLEGIANCES The allegiances system is optional. A character may have up to three allegiances, listed in order from most important to least important. These allegiances are indications of what the character values in life, and may encompass people, organizations, or ideals. A character may have no allegiances (being either a free spirit or a lone wolf) or may change allegiances as he or she goes through life. Also, just because the character fits into a certain category of people doesn’t mean the character has to have that category as an allegiance. If the character acts in a way that is detrimental to his or her allegiance, the GM may choose to strip the character of that allegiance (and all its benefits) and assign an allegiance more suitable to those actions. Pledging Allegiance A hero’s allegiance can take the form of loyalty to a person, to an organization, to a belief system, to a nation, or to an ethical or moral philosophy. In general, a character can discard an allegiance at any time, but may only gain a new allegiance after attaining a new level. Having an allegiance implies having sufficient intelligence and wisdom to make a moral or ethical choice. As a result, a character must have Intelligence and Wisdom scores of 3 or higher in order to select allegiances. Allegiances include, but are not limited to, the following examples. Person or Group: This includes a leader or superior, a family, a group of linked individuals (such as a band of adventurers or a cell of secret agents), or a discrete unit within a larger organization (such as members of the character’s squad or platoon, or individuals whose safety the character is responsible for). Organization: This may be a company or corporation, a gathering of like-minded individuals, a fraternal brotherhood, a secret society, a branch of the armed forces, a local, state, or national government, a university, an employer, or an otherwise established authority. Nation: This may or may not be the nation that the hero currently resides in. It may be where the individual was born, or where the hero resides after emigrating to a new home. Belief System: This is usually a particular faith or religion, but can also be a specific philosophy or school of thought. Belief systems could also include political beliefs or philosophical outlooks. Ethical Philosophy: This describes how one feels about order, as represented by law and chaos. An individual with a lawful outlook tends to tell the truth, keep his or her word, respect authority, and honor tradition, and he or she expects others to do likewise. An individual with a chaotic outlook tends to follow his or her instincts and whims, favor new ideas and experiences, and behave in a subjective and open manner in dealings with others. Moral Philosophy: This describes one’s attitude toward others, as represented by good and evil. An individual with a good allegiance tends to protect innocent life. This belief implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of other creatures. An evil allegiance shows a willingness to hurt, oppress, and kill others, and to debase or destroy innocent life. Allegiances and Influence An allegiance can create an empathic bond with others of the same allegiance. With the GM’s permission, the character gains a +2 circumstance bonus on Charisma-based skill checks when dealing with someone of the same allegiance—as long as the character has had some interaction with the other character to discover the connections and bring the bonus into play.
Sereno 02-23-07, 03:45 PM	I agree 100% with CroBob ... alignment isn't really restrictive or limiting at all if you don't use it as a straight-jacket or beat your players over the head with it (ala, "No, your character wouldn't do that, you're LG."). Any character, of any alignment, can take any action what-so-ever ... it's just that sometimes there are consequences to actions and a change of alignment is one of them. Alignment doesn't tell you what your character can do ... what you do tells you what kind of alignment your character has.