Post/Author/DateTime	Post
alcibyades 01-11-06, 12:52 PM	Hey All, For a bunch of reasons not worth rehashing I’m not going to use alignments in my next campaign. But, aside from the mechanical role that alignments play, they also have a role playing function. Alignments are a short hand way of conveying information about a character and a guide to role play. What I’m looking for is a way to replace this role playing function of alignments. What I’m thinking of is asking a couple questions to the players about their characters. Ideally these questions should be answered with two or three sentences (so as not to be too onerous), be enjoyable for players to think about and help them to role play their characters, and be helpful for DMs in planning plot hooks and motivations for adventures. Two questions that I am considering are: 1) What things are valuable to your character? 2) How important is loyalty to your character? Does your character have any established loyalties? Do you think that this would helpful or can you think of better questions or better ways of doing what I’m trying to do?
celtredleg 01-11-06, 01:18 PM	Lots of player surveys around to help with what you are doing. Some are long and detailed. Some are short and quick. It comes down to your players. If they are good rolepalyers, aligments are not needed. For poor ones, they cant make up the lack anyway.
Leap_UK 01-11-06, 01:31 PM	You could try: How important is wealth to your character; Do they seek riches, modest upkeep, poverty or do they simply not see money as a particular motivation? How ambitious are they; do they enjoy having power, ability and influence, are they modest about any ability, or do they indeed seek only to be humble servants? Do they feel cut off from those around them; do they feel distant and alienated or do they feel an integral part of a world that is “home” to them? How important is industriousness to the character; is sick-leave and holiday to be felt guilty for, is a little bit of slacking ok or is the character an out an out slacker who sees work as something the foolish do? :)
Roxlimn 01-11-06, 01:47 PM	Alignments do more than just define a character. They also define the kind of game and the kind of setting that you are running. D&D uses a Law-Chaos Good-Evil alignment scheme because that's the kinds of conflicts and societies that D&D emphasizes. Alternatives to the D&D alignment system includes the Taint mechanic from OA and the Alliegance mechanic from d20 Modern. They emphasize different kinds of morality and thus define different kinds of characters within their respective societies. Remember: a PC does not exist in a vacuum. He can't be a rebel or an honorable man if there's nothing to rebel against or no codes of honor to uphold.
Vestigial_Thumb 01-11-06, 04:54 PM	You could also spice up the alignment system; replace alignments with political standings as such: Good becomes Communist Evil becomes Capitalist Lawful becomes Authoritarian Chaotic becomes Anarcho- Thus a CG character would be an Anarchocommunist. A LE character would be an Authoritarian Capitalist (Bush administration). A CE character would be an Anarchocapitalist (your typical anarchist, as the media puts them out to be). A LG character would be an Authoritarian Communist. Do NOT attempt to fight my capitalists are evil argument. Capitalists care about their own well-being, and their well-being only. Example: The tobacco companies sell hazardous products, knowing about their harmful effects. The American Government, for some reason, doesn't oppose this. Oil companies kill thousands of middle-easterners for a few drums of oil. (Note that the typical American citizen isn't really a capitalist) All of this is sponsored by www.politicalcompass.org !
Mr. NewFox 01-11-06, 06:08 PM	These threads always come up from time to time. I even started one here; though without the search option its hard to find (you may want to use google restricted to the wizards site, with the keywords "virtue" and "alignment"). If you can find that thread, it has an alternative system you can try. I'm sure there are many other threads around as well. You might want to try the allegiences system in d20 modern. Mr. NewFox
weasel fierce 01-11-06, 06:50 PM	You dont need a system for this kind of thing. If you want the players to think a bit more about their characters, have them pick 2 or 3 things that are their characters overall goals in life, or general outlooks. If you really want to motivate them for it, give them an XP bonus when they do things that fullfill these goals, possibly letting them change them later on, as the character grows. Ultimately, its all RPing though
revnk 01-11-06, 06:53 PM	Alternatives to the D&D alignment system includes the Taint mechanic from OA and the Alliegance mechanic from d20 Modern. They emphasize different kinds of morality and thus define different kinds of characters within their respective societies. Remember: a PC does not exist in a vacuum. He can't be a rebel or an honorable man if there's nothing to rebel against or no codes of honor to uphold. Taint and an honor mechanic also appear in Unearthed Arcana, which (I think) makes them OGL and therefore accessible via the SRD (available for free on the Wizards' site and elsewhere). A version of the Taint mechanic also appears in Heroes Of Horror, but personally I think it's more mechanical and less flexible than the option provided in UA. (I actually picked up a used copy of UA in part because I liked the idea of Taint but not the way it was presented in HOH; additionally, UA has a variety of other variants that you might find useful and/or clever.) Taint isn't a bad compromise between getting rid of alignment per se and yet keeping a common force of evil present in the game that can be detected and smited. You may want to look into it through the sources mentioned by Roxlimn and I.
weasel fierce 01-11-06, 07:22 PM	Remember: a PC does not exist in a vacuum. He can't be a rebel or an honorable man if there's nothing to rebel against or no codes of honor to uphold. Very true, but the game doesnt need mechanics to give him that. Thats all part of the setting, and gameplay
Kuronue 01-11-06, 08:25 PM	Taint and an honor mechanic also appear in Unearthed Arcana, which (I think) makes them OGL and therefore accessible via the SRD (available for free on the Wizards' site and elsewhere). A version of the Taint mechanic also appears in Heroes Of Horror, but personally I think it's more mechanical and less flexible than the option provided in UA. (I actually picked up a used copy of UA in part because I liked the idea of Taint but not the way it was presented in HOH; additionally, UA has a variety of other variants that you might find useful and/or clever.) Taint isn't a bad compromise between getting rid of alignment per se and yet keeping a common force of evil present in the game that can be detected and smited. You may want to look into it through the sources mentioned by Roxlimn and I. taint: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm honor: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/honor.htm other points of interest: reputation: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/reputation.htm sanity: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm
alcibyades 01-11-06, 08:59 PM	Thank's everyone for the suggestions and references to taint, repuation and allegiance mechanics. Like I said in the OP though, I'm not really looking for a mechanic to replace alignments, I'm looking for a replacement to the information about a character that alignment conveys. Celtredleg and Leap_UK suggested character surveys and a bunch of further questions, which is more in line with what i was looking for. It's true that the PC's don't live in a vacuum, but I'm looking for a couple of very general, open ended questions that players can answer to indicate how they relate to the larger world. The reason I want to limit it to two questions is that I don't want it to be a chore to do this part of character creation. I'm trying to figure out out if the two questions I have are good ones for doing that. The original two questions were: 1) What things are valuable to your character? 2) How important is loyalty to your character? Does your character have any established loyalties? If you were going to create a character, would these questions prompt you to develop your character in a way that made him or her more interesting and easier to role play? Are there better questions? Thanks for your comments.
Kuronue 01-11-06, 09:41 PM	Thank's everyone for the suggestions and references to taint, repuation and allegiance mechanics. Like I said in the OP though, I'm not really looking for a mechanic to replace alignments, I'm looking for a replacement to the information about a character that alignment conveys. Celtredleg and Leap_UK suggested character surveys and a bunch of further questions, which is more in line with what i was looking for. It's true that the PC's don't live in a vacuum, but I'm looking for a couple of very general, open ended questions that players can answer to indicate how they relate to the larger world. The reason I want to limit it to two questions is that I don't want it to be a chore to do this part of character creation. I'm trying to figure out out if the two questions I have are good ones for doing that. The original two questions were: 1) What things are valuable to your character? 2) How important is loyalty to your character? Does your character have any established loyalties? If you were going to create a character, would these questions prompt you to develop your character in a way that made him or her more interesting and easier to role play? Are there better questions? Thanks for your comments. I found a survey from somewhere (thanks to wherever I got it from, maybe was here?) that I made a new player take before starting his paladin (to avoid lawful stupid) 1: You are on a dark street in a city late at night, and find a sackful of silver. There is nobody at all in sight. (If you're truely paranoid, magical or physical scoping of the area also reveals no-one.) What do you do? 2: You have returned to your hometown/base of operations/city from a long and ardous trek. Your feet hurt, you're probably beaten up some, and you have a purse full of recovered loot. What is the first thing you do? 3: Your mentor is ill and has bade you come to her/his side before she/he dies. You are far away, and in the middle of a very importent trip, but you can make it to her/his side if you drop everything and go immideately. What do you do? 4: The party bard is whistling a tune you hate. What do you do? 5: Another adventurer in your party has lain claim to an object you covet. What do you do? 6: Your Familar/Animal Companion/Trusty steed/faithful old dog has been killed by one of your party members who, while under the influence of a blind spell, accidently filled it full of arrows thinking it was a monster. What do you do? (Once you get up off the ground, if it was a familar.) 7: While in a city, a comely bar wench/waiter has caught your eye. What do you do? 8: The princess of a kingdom that owes you favor looks up to you as a mentor, and wishes to run away from home to follow in your footsteps. She makes this known to you. What do you do? 9: While in a tavern, a drunken dwarf insults your mother's honor. What do you do? 10: The party wizard wants to take downtime in a city so he can hit the stacks at the library. The other two in the party disagree, and want to hit the trail again. What do you do? 11: A noble wants you to marry his son/daughter. Said son/daughter is ugly as a bulldog mated with a troll, who's offspring mated with an ogre. What do you do? 12: You stand over a vampress who's castle your party snuck into and ambushed. She is begging for mercy, as the Cleric raises the stake. What do you do? 13: War has broken out between your kingdom and the kingdom of another party member. He intends to answer the rallying call from his Liege, and you know full well the danger this person, who is a skilled warrior, could pose to your kingdom. What do you do? 14: A lonely red dragoness has you cornered, with the rest of your companions fled. She offers you your life, if you will indulge her in the bed. What do you do? 15: You are unable to read a book, but have been told it's contents contain a listing of your family's ancient burial sites, possibly which hold great treasure. The party wizard tells you it contains no such information. What do you do? 16: The party barbarian drank all of his ale, and then drank yours without asking. What do you do? 17: Your magic/warrior/monk academy/monestary/place of learning has heard of your exploits and requested you return there for a year to teach. What do you do? 18: You've been framed for a murder you had reason, opportunity and ability to commit. But you didn't do it. What did you do? 19: Your God/dess has been destroyed, and you know of this fact. What do you do? 20: You have the potential for wealth beyond measure at your fingertips. the catch is you have to kill the rest of your party in their sleep. What do you do? 21:Your skill at fencing/magic has become legend. Then someone challenges you to a duel to the death. What do you do? 22: Years ago, your King allowed your hometown to be overrun by an invading horde of orcs, because he needed soldiers to secure his family's trade routes, leading to the serial rape and murder of your mother, which you were forced to watch from a hiding spot. Now, you have learned of an attempt on his life. What do you do? 23: An orcish horde has gathered under the leader of one powerful chieftan, and your party has been captured and taken before him. He expresses a desire to have your party take her to the King of your nation, with whom he wishes to negotiate safe passage through his lands for the purposes of leaving this continent by sea to wage war on an orc kingdom across said sea. Orcs have no history of making peaceful contacts with other races. What do you do? 24. You're tired and weary, on the last leg of a long trip to get to a city. The food ran out about two days ago, and you're hungry. Then you come across a farmer on the road, shaking his head and working to try an put his crop of hay back on his cart, which it fell off of. What do you do? 25. When you go to hunt down an adult red dragon that attacked a town, for reasons unknown, she flees her horde room. When you corner her, she's standing protectively over a clutch of quivering eggs, about to hatch any second. She and you both know that your group is outfitted with magic that will make her breath ineffective, the and you're well-armed to defeat her, especially in this room that's too small for flight. What do you do? 26. Along the road, you encounter a kobold that looks injured - he's unconcious, bleeding slowly from an arrow wound. What do you do? 27. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are silver coins as platinum. What do you do? 28. When you divide the treasure, you correctly identify what everyone else thinks are platinum coins as silver. What do you do? 29. Inside a dungeon, you come across what appears to be an adolescent Erinyes devil, chained to a dungeon wall and apparently having been used as a sex toy. She glares at you with hatred as you enter. What do you do? 30. When you're in a position to do off a demon king who's been responsible for countless death and suffering, he swears he'll make you all princes and princesses, Lords and Ladies among mere mortals, with an immortal lifespan and wealthy beyond the dreams of kings, if you spare his life. What do you do? 31.A king who owes you a favor for recovering his lienage's crown asks you another small favor. His princess daughter becomes hostile whenever anyone mentions her bethrothal to a prince. After a few minutes of talking to her as simply a friend, it's obvious to you (though not to her) that she is deeply Shojo-ai. (Lesbian.) What do you do? Personality: Reply With Quote
Dragonspirit 01-11-06, 09:47 PM	You could also spice up the alignment system; replace alignments with political standings as such: Good becomes Communist Evil becomes Capitalist Lawful becomes Authoritarian Chaotic becomes Anarcho- Thus a CG character would be an Anarchocommunist. A LE character would be an Authoritarian Capitalist (Bush administration). A CE character would be an Anarchocapitalist (your typical anarchist, as the media puts them out to be). A LG character would be an Authoritarian Communist. Do NOT attempt to fight my capitalists are evil argument. Capitalists care about their own well-being, and their well-being only. Example: The tobacco companies sell hazardous products, knowing about their harmful effects. The American Government, for some reason, doesn't oppose this. Oil companies kill thousands of middle-easterners for a few drums of oil. (Note that the typical American citizen isn't really a capitalist) In this system, sign me up for Lawful Evil baby! I would dub myself "Paladin of W!" A LG character would be an Authoritarian Communist. Yep, good guys like Mao, Stalin, Kim Jong Il and Castro! :rofl: :pint: :drool: :turkey:
Darth Sephiroth 01-11-06, 10:13 PM	One option would be to keep the alignment system pretty much as is, just don't tell your players what their's is and base it entirely on their actions. One major option for this would be to use the Prestige Paladin rather than the normal variant and other things of the sort.
Horatio Hornblower 01-11-06, 10:18 PM	Do NOT attempt to fight my capitalists are evil argument. Of course not. You are obviously a close minded ideologue and arguing with you would be pointless. Try posting on a political board where people might actually care about your point of view. Getting back to the OP. The first question is too open ended. I'd give them some choices. You could list items and have the players put them in order of importance to their characters. Example items could be family, wealth, power, friendship, me. A list for your loyality question could be king, country, family, friends, party, no one. Making them rank the options might help them think about how to play their characters.
Kuronue 01-11-06, 10:23 PM	Do NOT attempt to fight my capitalists are evil argument. I won't. How are communists good? Communism has been proven to corrupt very easily and communists tend to become evil... I'd cut the ties to good and evil and just replace them altogether. Dont' say Capitalists = evil Communists = good. Say Capitalists are the opposite of Communists. Detect Capitalist, Detect Communist. done.
Dragonspirit 01-11-06, 10:35 PM	Say Capitalists are the opposite of Communists. Detect Capitalist, Detect Communist. done. Detect Communist Sorc/Wiz 1 Divination Casting Time: 1 Standard Round Duration: 1 round/Lvl Material Component: 1 Handout Casting this spell reveals whether the subject has a job or lives at home with his parents regurgitating his liberal professor's rhetoric about capitalism being evil. In addition, by concentrating as a full round action, you can determine whether the dirty hippy has showered within the last month. Note that this spell in no way allows you to make the Communist assume any personal accoutability or responsibility. Material Component: A handout of at least 1 gp value, which will be consumed by the Communist while you work to support his dysfunctional posterior.
revnk 01-11-06, 10:35 PM	I won't. How are communists good? Communism has been proven to corrupt very easily and communists tend to become evil... I'd cut the ties to good and evil and just replace them altogether. Dont' say Capitalists = evil Communists = good. Say Capitalists are the opposite of Communists. Detect Capitalist, Detect Communist. done. I thought the opposite of "Communist" was "Government," "Liberal" is "Conservative," "Weird" is "Straight," "Peaceful" is "Violent," "Criminal" has no opposite alignment and "Fanatic" is its own opposite. Which is important to remember if you're attacking to neutralize, an important and easy to overlook option when it looks like the Bermuda Triangle is going to use the L4s to snag the Mind Control Lasers on their turn and have a lot of MB to keep you from grabbing them yourself. Neutralize whoever Bermuda has controlling the L4s and hope Cthulhu can attack to destroy the Mind Control Lasers before the Triangle's next turn and you may be able to get that extra transferable power you need for the win. Wait, what? Oh. Wrong game. Sorry. -Your friendly neighborhood "Anarcho-Communist," evidently. :D P.S. I bathe daily, live alone, have a job, a postgraduate education and a successful career. Don't make me add that I'm literate, have all my teeth and don't believe in Bigfoot. Oops, there I went and was a judgemental hater. Damn!
Dragonspirit 01-11-06, 10:57 PM	I bathe daily, live alone, have a job, a postgraduate education and a successful career. Don't make me add that I'm literate, have all my teeth and don't believe in Bigfoot. How dare you betray Che! :P
revnk 01-11-06, 11:03 PM	How dare you betray Che! :P I know... nothing like being a middle-class liberal to trigger crises of conscience. I rationalize away the mental disconnect by reminding myself that I'm a clean socialist, but sometimes it just feels bad not to be a revolutionary. Oh well, Jefferson was a revolutionary spirit with a nice home and big library. I just need a good reason to write a manifesto. Maybe the British will invade again. :)
alcibyades 01-12-06, 12:19 AM	Maybe the British will invade again. You should be so lucky. ;)
The_Cheat137 01-12-06, 12:55 AM	Why do i see this thread getting locked in the near future?
Archangel62 01-12-06, 01:14 AM	Maybe use the allegiance system from D20 Modern, either that or look at alignments from other games, the Palladium alignment system is probably the best IMO.
Always-Late 01-12-06, 01:26 AM	Do NOT attempt to fight my capitalists are evil argument. Capitalists care about their own well-being, and their well-being only. Example: The tobacco companies sell hazardous products, knowing about their harmful effects. The American Government, for some reason, doesn't oppose this. Oil companies kill thousands of middle-easterners for a few drums of oil. (Note that the typical American citizen isn't really a capitalist)I know, because what I've believed all my life has been utterly shattered by one, authoritative post of yours. I'll go home and totally rethink my lifestyle. Back on OP... Exalted has a Vices and Virtues system. Basically, there are things like Charity, Faith, and Justice as Virtues, and Envy, Lust, and Greed as Vices. You could have them list virtues and vices of their characters. But I still think the survey would work better.
Lord Howland Reed 01-12-06, 04:00 AM	I really like the reputation system put forh by the Guardians of Order in thier "Game of Thrones" d20. If you want their personalities to still involve a mechanic that can effect the way theyre percieved and reward or penalize them for acting out of character, its really good whether theyre good or evil or anything in between.
Vestigial_Thumb 01-12-06, 05:21 PM	Okay, are you done flaming me? Check the ****ing site before you make idiotic, closed-minded assumptions about this political system, which actually makes a lot more ****ing sense than left-wing/right-wing system! This system would make the alignments more superficial, so devils, demons archons, slaadi and the others in the gang wouldn't have a big place in the world. Ooh! Being evil shouldn't automatically make you a capitalist. If you are, say, a communist with sadistic tendencies, you can roleplay a neutral character. So long, and good luck getting out the giant drumsticks that are stuck in your asses and lodged between your 4th and 5th vertebrae (this is directed at the flamers who glorify the opportunistic mass-murderers that are the capitalists).
Vestigial_Thumb 01-12-06, 05:33 PM	I think I may have just flamed AND trolled at the same time... D'oh! :doh: :(.