Post/Author/DateTime	Post
skywyze 03-28-07, 02:43 PM	I don't like much of the Epic Level Handbook. Particularly how imbalanced it seems in favor of epic casters (particularly ones with Leadership). I also don't like how everyone hits 21 and suddenly become flying half-monster superheros who fire laser beams from their eyes and level cities with a glance. Epicness just never feels right to me. On the other hand, if a game doesn't continue after level 20, then the game usually ends right there. The characters we've all fallen in love with die and disappear and everything we've worked on stops and fades away. Options I see: a) Let the game continue as normal. I.e. at level 21, you get your first level in some other class since your current class is maxed out. You can't turn all your enemies into your obedient fanatic servants as a standard action with no save. You can't use jump checks to give yourself a fly speed like Neo in the Matrix. The game just keeps going as it always has, but now you've maxed out a class, so you begin on the next class. b) The characters stop levelling. They stay at level 21 and (because they'll still find loot) continue to get more powerful, albeit slower. But now they've stopped evolving, mechanically speaking. c) Or you can change the individual things that bother you and simply make a long list of houserules. d) You all roll up new characters, but keep playing in the same world. You could even meet your old characters on your journeys, etc. That way they're not gone or forgotten. But then, eventually, those characters turn epic too. Then what? The reason I'm asking is because I'm saddened every time a campaign ends, yet I do think that epicness is generally brokenness. Sure, everyone can agree to gimp themselves in the name of balance, but that feels like metagaming. So what can you do? This is not a statement about epic levels. I'm not looking to convince anyone of anything, and you're free to disagree with me. I respect that. I'm just wondering how other DMs have handled the transition into epic levels.
Daydreamer 03-28-07, 02:54 PM	Epic rules are quite simply terrible, absolutely terrible. They are not only inconsistent, but characters are already overpowerd this sends it over the deep end! Also the rules for Gods are bad, dont release that pre epic stuff ever again wotC !!:mad: We dont adventure till epic, and retire, we only induldge in epic for 4-5 game session spurts to tackle some metaphysical issue int he world that interests us. Basically its just best avoided, i cant even imagine how to houserule that stuff into something reasonable. What i want for a 4th edition. 1. Slower power progression through level advancement. 2. Epic being streamlined consistently into the game FROM THE start know what ur doing with epic, even if its not coming out till later.
Yami 03-28-07, 03:03 PM	Another possibility I've considered is allowing character specific increases - stat, feat every 3 levels - and some basic skill increases. That in combination with higher powered items makes the characters continue to evolve - slowly.
OravennasBrother 03-28-07, 03:21 PM	If Epic is an abomination because the spellcasters become too powerful, just stop having spellcasters in the campaign. No wait that might not work. How about, radical suggestion, SLOW DOWN the pace of advancement so it is almost impossible to reach level 20? Then there is no need to worry about "epic" nonsense.
swallowyersoul 03-28-07, 04:48 PM	epic does, in part, what it set out to do. want to be ultra-mega powerful? epic is just bloody well awesome for that. epic has a lot of problems, especially in terms of scale. if that were solved, i think it would be reasonable at least up to level 30 or so. by scale i mean: someplace between level 16 and level 22 or so, it gets to the point where success is a binary feature based on character build. given challenge x, all the fighters will succeed and none of the wizards will. given challenge y, all the rogues will live and none of the fighters will. with the exception of a few serious gaffes, most of the rest just requires the dm to be a vicious, conniving bastard with lots of time to devote to encounter design. but fixing scale is vital. any thoughts on how to do that?
Yakman 03-28-07, 05:07 PM	epic does, in part, what it set out to do. want to be ultra-mega powerful? epic is just bloody well awesome for that. epic has a lot of problems, especially in terms of scale. if that were solved, i think it would be reasonable at least up to level 30 or so. by scale i mean: someplace between level 16 and level 22 or so, it gets to the point where success is a binary feature based on character build. given challenge x, all the fighters will succeed and none of the wizards will. given challenge y, all the rogues will live and none of the fighters will. with the exception of a few serious gaffes, most of the rest just requires the dm to be a vicious, conniving bastard with lots of time to devote to encounter design. but fixing scale is vital. any thoughts on how to do that? Sure--just add an exponentially larger amount of XP needed to advance to the next level onto the existing tables.
LCD2YOU 03-28-07, 05:41 PM	Just getting to becoming "Epic" raises some questions: 1: Who are these guys fighting to get them to that level? 2: If NPCs in somebody's world generally are the 1st or 2nd level town guards and the 1st level commoner, where are all the "Epic" and other high level NPCs and monsters before? 3: After a Character reaches Epic, dontcha think that other already Epic like beings may take a dim view of the "new guys" and smack them down a few pegs even before they get too high? I have a very convenient way to keep things down: I have changed the rules to relfect the problems that a few people have when facing over whelming numbers. A 10th level Fighter in my game can slaughter ten 1st level fighters one at a time, but if all ten come at him and they are determined to get him, he's toast. Magic is slow, deliberate but still deadly. Cure and Healing Spells come with a cost. You don't want to know what it takes to do a Resurrection on someone (hint the caster can and they have died) and it still may not work (and the caster still and they have died). DnD is best around levels 5th to 12th in my book as it is. After 12th, unless a DM has a whole world planned out (and I do not believe in tailoring encounters for PC levels, they encounter what's out there) and makes it logical, you're going to have issues.
Krusk 03-28-07, 07:13 PM	Most classes have a pattern for advancement. Just continue it. Even spellcasters really, they gain new spells per day/known at a steady rate, just keep it going. Thats how i would treat epic play, but we usually stop once it hits level 20 or so. And Ive never done epic single class. Only epic experience was a rogue/menacing brute/half orc paragon/something else/something else. All prestige classes finished.
yellowdingo 03-28-07, 10:56 PM	I don't like much of the Epic Level Handbook. Particularly how imbalanced it seems in favor of epic casters (particularly ones with Leadership). I also don't like how everyone hits 21 and suddenly become flying half-monster superheros who fire laser beams from their eyes and level cities with a glance. Epicness just never feels right to me. On the other hand, if a game doesn't continue after level 20, then the game usually ends right there. The characters we've all fallen in love with die and disappear and everything we've worked on stops and fades away. Options I see: a) Let the game continue as normal. I.e. at level 21, you get your first level in some other class since your current class is maxed out. You can't turn all your enemies into your obedient fanatic servants as a standard action with no save. You can't use jump checks to give yourself a fly speed like Neo in the Matrix. The game just keeps going as it always has, but now you've maxed out a class, so you begin on the next class. b) The characters stop levelling. They stay at level 21 and (because they'll still find loot) continue to get more powerful, albeit slower. But now they've stopped evolving, mechanically speaking. c) Or you can change the individual things that bother you and simply make a long list of houserules. d) You all roll up new characters, but keep playing in the same world. You could even meet your old characters on your journeys, etc. That way they're not gone or forgotten. But then, eventually, those characters turn epic too. Then what? The reason I'm asking is because I'm saddened every time a campaign ends, yet I do think that epicness is generally brokenness. Sure, everyone can agree to gimp themselves in the name of balance, but that feels like metagaming. So what can you do? This is not a statement about epic levels. I'm not looking to convince anyone of anything, and you're free to disagree with me. I respect that. I'm just wondering how other DMs have handled the transition into epic levels. Dont like the rules, make your own. Offer them the alternative. Why become a God when you can be the first Emperor of Western Faerun... Let you epic level fighter subjugate every rival for the throne and lead the empire to war against the East. Let them become the very thing they have spent their lifetimes tearing down. Let them spend their fortunes on opencut quarries five miles deep to let sunlight into the under dark. A Mausoleum of Stone 1 mile x 1 mile x 1 mile will take 120 years to build, cost 60 billion gp and require several million labourers over the construction period.
TessarrianDM 03-28-07, 11:28 PM	So what, if anything, is wrong with just using the epic rules in the DMG, without using anything from other sources? This is what I plan on doing when we reach that point; am I just asking for trouble?
Elthbert 03-29-07, 01:46 PM	I have had no trouble with epic levels. No balance issues at all. My campaign took 5 years of almost weekly play to reach epic level, my players has subdued the surrounding lands and crushed the enemies of thier king, they could of course take over the kingdom if they wanted to, but they are good and loyal subjects. There Epic monsters and characters have always been there, so that is not a problem. Now however the characters are taking them on directly rather than thier minions. I have been running my Campaign world for nearly 20 years now and there have been epic characters before ( back when there were 29th level wizards) they left thier mark on the world and are famed through out the continent. The players have ( after 6 1/2 years) finally reached quasi deity status and are having fun in the grey area between mortal and god ( gods have rules to follow in my campaign, the violation of which results in many gods getting together and ending you). I have had no problem at all with it. You have to step up you creatures, butthe other planes offer an easy way to do that. Currently my players are going to try and stop a triad of dragons who are on the path to godhood ( there is a convient prestige class for this in the draconomican). They have taken over a remote nation and killed all off the clerics there, and forced what is left of the population to worship them. ( In my campaign worship is essential for attaining divine rank). These dragons are planar dragons and even though they are not great wyrms with a half a dozen levels they are going to really upset my party. The final encounter will be with the one who has actually finished the path and become a quasi-deity CR 20 dragon ith 12 levels of a restige class and all of the powers of a quasi deity--- I am suspecting serious casualties among my party. I just have not had an issue with Epic Level play.
drake_vampiel_d 03-29-07, 04:21 PM	Epic is a usful tool if used properly I have an insanely powerful 1/2 dragon who is my world's answer to dumb adventurers like I have a group that just walked into the town carrying a child over thier shoulders like a trophy still filled with arrows (yes the child is an enemy) but now they are answering to the 1/2 dragon because it doesn't look good for them to be wondering around with a near dead child over thier shoulders (after I hinted to them with an NPC that they may want to at least heal the child a little, they think he's posessed.)
Yakman 03-29-07, 05:05 PM	The problem with epic from a world-building perspective is that characters at these levels are so bad ass that the world as a whole has to bend around them. It completely throws off world designs, unless you decide to open up the gates of evil plane B and throw the world into a possible armageddon.
Voran 03-29-07, 05:19 PM	You can keep some of the Epic stuff, without all the crazy stuff. Allow class progression beyond 20, use the Epic progression for BAB/Saves/Feat Gain, but not the character specific ones. Don't allow Epic rated feats. Do allow characters to pick up feats of 'normal' core classes or 'normal' prestige classes. For these post-20 levels, say you've suspended multiclass penalties. So you'll likely end up with chars with quite a few classes, if not quite a few more Prestige classes, but this does encourage them to spread out a little.
Elthbert 03-29-07, 07:14 PM	The problem with epic from a world-building perspective is that characters at these levels are so bad ass that the world as a whole has to bend around them. It completely throws off world designs, unless you decide to open up the gates of evil plane B and throw the world into a possible armageddon. So what? I mean these people have worked hard to earn thier awesome power, why shouldn't the world bend around them? Your players help shape the world, by the time they are epic they have spent a lot of time in the world they have earned the right to shape it.
Loestalx 03-29-07, 07:50 PM	So what, if anything, is wrong with just using the epic rules in the DMG, without using anything from other sources? This is what I plan on doing when we reach that point; am I just asking for trouble? I wasn't aware the DMG 3.5 had epic rules. How do they differ from the sourcebook?
skywyze 03-29-07, 08:01 PM	The reason I asked this question was because... I love levels 5-12. And the other levels up to 20 aren't too bad either. But when the entire world bows to your power, it just doesn't "Feel" the same any more. It's not "adventure" any more. I was hoping someone had a way to remedy this.
Loestalx 03-29-07, 08:07 PM	The reason I asked this question was because... I love levels 5-12. And the other levels up to 20 aren't too bad either. But when the entire world bows to your power, it just doesn't "Feel" the same any more. It's not "adventure" any more. I was hoping someone had a way to remedy this. This is simply a personal thing. No matter how powerful my players are, there is ALWAYS something out there bigger and badder than they are. They never have the mindset that they can do everything and anything they want. Of course, I will admit my high level game is a good aligned..and it's significantly tougher to control and keep an evil game balanced and running smoothly. It all comes down to the DM. It's only not an "adventure" because the DM has succumbed to the players or simply burnt out. Adventures for high levels are the planes, or deep dark secrets of the world or just...there is PLENTY of ideas for high levels. I think there are MORE options for high level games.
Dux_is_me 03-29-07, 08:20 PM	^ Exactly! 'The world as a whole' can't bend over to just a party of characters; people out there wouldn't like that, and one of those people will probably be more powerful than the PCs.
Elthbert 03-29-07, 08:26 PM	The reason I asked this question was because... I love levels 5-12. And the other levels up to 20 aren't too bad either. But when the entire world bows to your power, it just doesn't "Feel" the same any more. It's not "adventure" any more. I was hoping someone had a way to remedy this. Yes appropriate challenges. Go eleminate Demigorgon on his own plane render chromatic dragons extinct--- etc.
enlightened 03-29-07, 09:49 PM	I wasn't aware the DMG 3.5 had epic rules. How do they differ from the sourcebook? http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicLevels.html It would be much easier for you to read them yourself than for us to explain them to you.
Loestalx 03-29-07, 09:51 PM	http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicLevels.html It would be much easier for you to read them yourself than for us to explain them to you. Thank you
enlightened 03-29-07, 10:09 PM	Actually, when I posted that link I thought that the SRD material was the same as what is written in the DMG. On looking through it again, I see that the SRD instead contains the 3.5 updated version of the Epic Level Handbook. You should still read what the DMG has to say about it on page 206. It is simplified down to six pages, but trust me, that is all you need. Each of the books in the "Complete" series also features epic material for 3.5.