Alternatives to the Challenge Rating system? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternatives to the Challenge Rating system? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Orbb_was_railed_by_God
11-28-06, 06:59 PM Okay, I hear plenty of griping about the Challenge Rating system, but I can't for the life of me think of anything more creative than a static XP system.

Has anyone else had any ideas concerning this?
fatal error
11-28-06, 07:02 PM Okay, I hear plenty of griping about the Challenge Rating system, but I can't for the life of me think of anything more creative than a static XP system.

Has anyone else had any ideas concerning this?

What do you mean, "Other than a static XP system?"

Levels are based on experience points, experience points must be awarded for achieving objectives. You can drop challenge ratings and just assign arbitrary amounts at the end of each adventure based on how much you feel the heroes should get. In fact, if no one's crafting you could even assign levels in fractions rather than experience points. But if you want to create a system, a formula, for how fast heroes should progress based upon the challenges they overcome, you're going to end up with something like experience points and CR.

Or you can always go the crazy route and try to break the D20 system down to a "character point" system like GURPS or 2nd edition Starwars. Thus, award character points that can be spent to partially level you up, get a feat, get a rank in a skill, etc. Of course, you should most certainly cap these at the highest for the next level, so you don't have people getting 9th level spells at equivalent game time as level 4, just with still level 1 hit points, feats and skills. In the end, I'd say this is more work than it is worth, but I don't find it terribly appealing to apply incremental advancement to level based systems anyway.
Orbb_was_railed_by_God
11-29-06, 02:47 AM A Static XP system would be standard XP bonuses for creatures/challenges no matter what level the characters are.
DrMorganes
11-29-06, 03:43 AM A Static XP system would be standard XP bonuses for creatures/challenges no matter what level the characters are.

Which is a throwback to previous edition rules. Nasty business, that... Trying to find an appropriate challenge was a royal pain in the arse. Sure the CR system is far from perfect (and it breaks down rather substantially at epic levels), but it's a great tool if you keep its limitations in mind. Using the Encounter Calculator (http://www.geocities.com/edymnionii/EPLvsEL.html) is great help when dealing with non-standard party sizes.

Ad Hoc xp awards, or partial levels, character points, or what have you are fine if your group agrees. I've used similar things in other games. It seems to take the focus off of "leveling" and lets the players focus on the game. A nice option, I think, but you're bound to have issues with younger folks used to the "xp grind" common to MassMOGs like EverQuest or World of Warcraft.

If you do decide to use a non-standard method to track character advancement and have casters with various Craft Item feats, consider using the Craft Point variant in Unearthed Arcana to replace the XP burn on crafters. Essentially this gives the PC a number of "craft points" per level (it scales geometrically with Caster Level) to be used in place of XP. Points may be saved from level to level if desired, but once they've been used no further crafting is possible until the PC gains a new level. This has the added benefit of forcing casters to plan how they use their craft points. Do they craft several lesser items as they go along, or do they save them up for the truly snazzy stuff at higher levels? No more worrying about the casters falling behind the rest of the party due to item crafting, and you get the added bonus of not having to worry too much about the PCs cranking out magic items by the cartload. There simply aren't enough craft points to do that!

If memory serves, a feat was suggested to allow the PC to gain additional craft points. I don't recall if it was a fixed amount or if it was on a linear scale (e.g., 500xp per caster level).
Orbb_was_railed_by_God
11-29-06, 10:54 AM Thanks DrMorganes.

Unfortunately I'm at work, and don't have time to write a large post, but the general theme I'm getting at is I hear a lot of complaints about the CR system, but very little to improve it.
Frugal
11-29-06, 03:40 PM I think the main thing is to just watch for where it breaks down. Generally, single opponents are very random and can either kill one or more PCs or drop really quickly depending on who gets initiative.

On the other hand, large numbers of lower CR creatures making up a "challenging" EL might just turn out to be too wimpy and result in a cake walk.

The big thing is to look at the abilities of the creature(s) and look for attacks or abilities that might be devastating or for clues that they might be too wimpy (like HP lower than any of the PC's average damage).
ressurrector
11-29-06, 04:16 PM It's usually pretty good for figuring out how much critters will beat on oyur party, if nothing less.
You should be careful though, some things are very mis-represented.
Hydras, swarms, trolls, alternate-trolls, adamantine horrors, etc...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orbb_was_railed_by_God 11-28-06, 06:59 PM	Okay, I hear plenty of griping about the Challenge Rating system, but I can't for the life of me think of anything more creative than a static XP system. Has anyone else had any ideas concerning this?
fatal error 11-28-06, 07:02 PM	Okay, I hear plenty of griping about the Challenge Rating system, but I can't for the life of me think of anything more creative than a static XP system. Has anyone else had any ideas concerning this? What do you mean, "Other than a static XP system?" Levels are based on experience points, experience points must be awarded for achieving objectives. You can drop challenge ratings and just assign arbitrary amounts at the end of each adventure based on how much you feel the heroes should get. In fact, if no one's crafting you could even assign levels in fractions rather than experience points. But if you want to create a system, a formula, for how fast heroes should progress based upon the challenges they overcome, you're going to end up with something like experience points and CR. Or you can always go the crazy route and try to break the D20 system down to a "character point" system like GURPS or 2nd edition Starwars. Thus, award character points that can be spent to partially level you up, get a feat, get a rank in a skill, etc. Of course, you should most certainly cap these at the highest for the next level, so you don't have people getting 9th level spells at equivalent game time as level 4, just with still level 1 hit points, feats and skills. In the end, I'd say this is more work than it is worth, but I don't find it terribly appealing to apply incremental advancement to level based systems anyway.
Orbb_was_railed_by_God 11-29-06, 02:47 AM	A Static XP system would be standard XP bonuses for creatures/challenges no matter what level the characters are.
DrMorganes 11-29-06, 03:43 AM	A Static XP system would be standard XP bonuses for creatures/challenges no matter what level the characters are. Which is a throwback to previous edition rules. Nasty business, that... Trying to find an appropriate challenge was a royal pain in the arse. Sure the CR system is far from perfect (and it breaks down rather substantially at epic levels), but it's a great tool if you keep its limitations in mind. Using the Encounter Calculator (http://www.geocities.com/edymnionii/EPLvsEL.html) is great help when dealing with non-standard party sizes. Ad Hoc xp awards, or partial levels, character points, or what have you are fine if your group agrees. I've used similar things in other games. It seems to take the focus off of "leveling" and lets the players focus on the game. A nice option, I think, but you're bound to have issues with younger folks used to the "xp grind" common to MassMOGs like EverQuest or World of Warcraft. If you do decide to use a non-standard method to track character advancement and have casters with various Craft Item feats, consider using the Craft Point variant in Unearthed Arcana to replace the XP burn on crafters. Essentially this gives the PC a number of "craft points" per level (it scales geometrically with Caster Level) to be used in place of XP. Points may be saved from level to level if desired, but once they've been used no further crafting is possible until the PC gains a new level. This has the added benefit of forcing casters to plan how they use their craft points. Do they craft several lesser items as they go along, or do they save them up for the truly snazzy stuff at higher levels? No more worrying about the casters falling behind the rest of the party due to item crafting, and you get the added bonus of not having to worry too much about the PCs cranking out magic items by the cartload. There simply aren't enough craft points to do that! If memory serves, a feat was suggested to allow the PC to gain additional craft points. I don't recall if it was a fixed amount or if it was on a linear scale (e.g., 500xp per caster level).
Orbb_was_railed_by_God 11-29-06, 10:54 AM	Thanks DrMorganes. Unfortunately I'm at work, and don't have time to write a large post, but the general theme I'm getting at is I hear a lot of complaints about the CR system, but very little to improve it.
Frugal 11-29-06, 03:40 PM	I think the main thing is to just watch for where it breaks down. Generally, single opponents are very random and can either kill one or more PCs or drop really quickly depending on who gets initiative. On the other hand, large numbers of lower CR creatures making up a "challenging" EL might just turn out to be too wimpy and result in a cake walk. The big thing is to look at the abilities of the creature(s) and look for attacks or abilities that might be devastating or for clues that they might be too wimpy (like HP lower than any of the PC's average damage).
ressurrector 11-29-06, 04:16 PM	It's usually pretty good for figuring out how much critters will beat on oyur party, if nothing less. You should be careful though, some things are very mis-represented. Hydras, swarms, trolls, alternate-trolls, adamantine horrors, etc...