Altrusim and the Cost of Righteousness Part 2 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Altrusim and the Cost of Righteousness Part 2 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TexasDM
11-20-07, 04:53 PM Greetings!

The Book of Exalted Deeds, in Chapter 1, has a small section called Ends and Means. It reads essentially, "a good character who knowingly commits an evil act jeopardizes their exalted feats."

If a PC has any exalted feat, are they obligated to stop evil acts, even if their party is committing those evil acts?

I gave the example of a party that need to steal an artifact from a good church in my previous thread. Should the PC with the exalted feat try and stop his/her party from committing the crime? Or should they let their party commit the crime? What action would save their benefits, save for going into the church and telling the priest a group of adventurers is trying to steal their prized possession?
Talisman
11-20-07, 05:18 PM If a PC has any exalted feat, are they obligated to stop evil acts, even if their party is committing those evil acts?

Short answer: Yes. Exalted characters are held to higher standards than most PCs, even good PCs. Exalted characters cannot take part in evil acts.

If an exalted PC becomes aware of an evil act, he is duty-bound to stop it of possible. If he can't (for instance, if he's 2nd level and the bad guy is a death knight), he must mitigate the damage if possible, warn those who can help, and generally be as helpful as possible.

If the other PCs are contemplating an evil act, the exalted PC is required to dissuade them...not go along with it, not look the other way: stop them. Hopefully with a minimum of bloodshed...he is good, after all, and presumably his allies aren't raving psychos.

Being exalted is tough. There's even a PrC based around being a martyr.

I gave the example of a party that need to steal an artifact from a good church in my previous thread. Should the PC with the exalted feat try and stop his/her party from committing the crime?

Yes...probably. Stealing from the good guys is most likely bad. However, one has to consider the context:

"We'll steal the chalice of happiness because it's worth a lot of money!" = bad

"We'll steal the chalice of happiness because it'll help us defeat the dracolich!" = morally gray. A good PC could probably get away with it, assuming he intended to return said chalice afterwards. An exalted PC is held to higher standards. Sorry.

"We'll steal the chalice of happiness because it's the one and only thing that can stop the Doomlord from sucking the Prime Plane into the Abyss, and the high priest won't listen to us no matter what we try." = acceptable. This is close to an "ends/means" situation, but the evil (stealing) is so clearly inferior to the good (saving the world) that I'd allow it. Still, this would probably call for an atonement quest afterwards.

Or should they let their party commit the crime?

No. If the exalted PC knows about the proposed action and turns a blind eye to avoid staining his precious, personal honor...being exalted doesn't work that way. "All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing."

What action would save their benefits, save for going into the church and telling the priest a group of adventurers is trying to steal their prized possession?

Finding something to use other that the holy artifact (if possible).
Attempting to convince the high priest that this is necessary (accepting a geas/quest if necessary) for the greater good, and swearing every oath to return the artifact later.

This PC's in a tough spot. If the priest can't be convinced, and the artifact is truly the only way to stop [whatever], then only world-shattering evil would justify this action. It's pretty much a no-win situation.

Ratting out the rest of the party should definitely be a last resort; the exalted PC should first try to convince them to use a different technique.
Lormador
11-20-07, 10:27 PM Contingency: Atonement?
Hippokrene
11-23-07, 05:02 AM I'll point out that stealing is not an inherently evil act, even if stealing from a good aligned church.
Derren S.
11-23-07, 05:53 AM I'll point out that stealing is not an inherently evil act, even if stealing from a good aligned church.

Exactly. Unless stealing this artifact will hurt innocent or good people (and the thieves, in this case the PCs, do know this) stealing this artifact is not evil.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TexasDM 11-20-07, 04:53 PM	Greetings! The Book of Exalted Deeds, in Chapter 1, has a small section called Ends and Means. It reads essentially, "a good character who knowingly commits an evil act jeopardizes their exalted feats." If a PC has any exalted feat, are they obligated to stop evil acts, even if their party is committing those evil acts? I gave the example of a party that need to steal an artifact from a good church in my previous thread. Should the PC with the exalted feat try and stop his/her party from committing the crime? Or should they let their party commit the crime? What action would save their benefits, save for going into the church and telling the priest a group of adventurers is trying to steal their prized possession?
Talisman 11-20-07, 05:18 PM	If a PC has any exalted feat, are they obligated to stop evil acts, even if their party is committing those evil acts? Short answer: Yes. Exalted characters are held to higher standards than most PCs, even good PCs. Exalted characters cannot take part in evil acts. If an exalted PC becomes aware of an evil act, he is duty-bound to stop it of possible. If he can't (for instance, if he's 2nd level and the bad guy is a death knight), he must mitigate the damage if possible, warn those who can help, and generally be as helpful as possible. If the other PCs are contemplating an evil act, the exalted PC is required to dissuade them...not go along with it, not look the other way: stop them. Hopefully with a minimum of bloodshed...he is good, after all, and presumably his allies aren't raving psychos. Being exalted is tough. There's even a PrC based around being a martyr. I gave the example of a party that need to steal an artifact from a good church in my previous thread. Should the PC with the exalted feat try and stop his/her party from committing the crime? Yes...probably. Stealing from the good guys is most likely bad. However, one has to consider the context: "We'll steal the chalice of happiness because it's worth a lot of money!" = bad "We'll steal the chalice of happiness because it'll help us defeat the dracolich!" = morally gray. A good PC could probably get away with it, assuming he intended to return said chalice afterwards. An exalted PC is held to higher standards. Sorry. "We'll steal the chalice of happiness because it's the one and only thing that can stop the Doomlord from sucking the Prime Plane into the Abyss, and the high priest won't listen to us no matter what we try." = acceptable. This is close to an "ends/means" situation, but the evil (stealing) is so clearly inferior to the good (saving the world) that I'd allow it. Still, this would probably call for an atonement quest afterwards. Or should they let their party commit the crime? No. If the exalted PC knows about the proposed action and turns a blind eye to avoid staining his precious, personal honor...being exalted doesn't work that way. "All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing." What action would save their benefits, save for going into the church and telling the priest a group of adventurers is trying to steal their prized possession? Finding something to use other that the holy artifact (if possible). Attempting to convince the high priest that this is necessary (accepting a geas/quest if necessary) for the greater good, and swearing every oath to return the artifact later. This PC's in a tough spot. If the priest can't be convinced, and the artifact is truly the only way to stop [whatever], then only world-shattering evil would justify this action. It's pretty much a no-win situation. Ratting out the rest of the party should definitely be a last resort; the exalted PC should first try to convince them to use a different technique.
Lormador 11-20-07, 10:27 PM	Contingency: Atonement?
Hippokrene 11-23-07, 05:02 AM	I'll point out that stealing is not an inherently evil act, even if stealing from a good aligned church.
Derren S. 11-23-07, 05:53 AM	I'll point out that stealing is not an inherently evil act, even if stealing from a good aligned church. Exactly. Unless stealing this artifact will hurt innocent or good people (and the thieves, in this case the PCs, do know this) stealing this artifact is not evil.