Altrusim and the Cost of Righteousness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Altrusim and the Cost of Righteousness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TexasDM
11-20-07, 04:00 PM Greetings!

I am currently running an epic level campaign. One of the PCs is a Thrikreen fighter with the Vow of Poverty feat. Although the feat inhibits the PC more than it helps, a specific problem - a moral dilemma - keeps arising during game play.

The situation arises when the party needs, or decides to do something that conflicts with the requirements of maintaining the Vow of Poverty feat. For example: stealing an artifact from the church of a good deity. To maintain the benefits of the Vow of Poverty the PC cannot participate in this portion of the adventure.

Does the PC, in order to maintain the benefits of the Vow of Poverty, have to try and stop his companions from committing a crime? And if they don't try and stop their companions do they lose the benefits of the Vow of Poverty feat?
Sarella Starshine
11-20-07, 04:11 PM Just because one person has the Vow of Proverty does not mean that other party members are so restricted. I would think that the objection about stealing from a Good church with a Good party has to do less with the Vow, and more with the idea that they somehow must steal this artifact instead of talking to the church and getting the item in a more legal mannor.

The Proverty one is more personal in nature, as it restricts what the person can do/use, unlike the vow of Peace and Nonviolence ones, which DO place restrictions on the party (cannot fight for one and nonleathal only for the other (not sure which one does what)). Just because the person has made a Vow to do without materal items, does not mean they expect or even require another person to do so.
Lormador
11-20-07, 04:14 PM Whether Vow of Poverty benefits are at risk depends on the situation. Clearly we're not talking about something so clear-cut as the character being allowed to use some equipment- intelligent items is a different question. VoP characters still don't get to use those.

The question is also not whether the act in question is good or not. You're concerned with whether or not you should strip Vow of Poverty benefits. Regardless of the goodness of the action, the character has made a special commitment to not use certain kinds of gear. He has not made a commitment to prevent others from doing so. He can participate in the theft as long as he doesn't use the equipment himself. Whether this is against some other aspect of his alignment or ethos isn't your question: you asked about his Vow. It is not threatened.

Now, whether he may be breaking other aspects of his ethos, such as any Vows of Obedience or a lawful nature, has to be handled differently. Divide up any question into its component parts and answer them individually to avoid becoming confused.
Legdiwena
11-20-07, 04:49 PM But stealing from a good church would be an evil act which would violate any exalted feat, not just VoP.
Lormador
11-20-07, 04:52 PM It would violate Exalted Vow but I do not see why it would violate the subsidiary vows specifically designed to forbid or control a certain form of behavior. Otherwise how would the vows be independently meaningful?
Legdiwena
11-20-07, 04:57 PM It would violate Exalted Vow but I do not see why it would violate the subsidiary vows specifically designed to forbid or control a certain form of behavior. Otherwise how would the vows be independently meaningful?

Not sure what other feats you referring to, please elaborate.
Talisman
11-20-07, 05:22 PM It would violate Exalted Vow but I do not see why it would violate the subsidiary vows specifically designed to forbid or control a certain form of behavior. Otherwise how would the vows be independently meaningful?

Since Exalted Vow is a prereq for the various Vow feats, if you violate EV (and lose the use of it), you lose the other Vows as well. Sort of like, if your Strength drops below 13 you lose Power Attack, and Cleave if you have it, and Great Cleave if you have it, etc. You no longer meet the prerequisites, therefore you lose the feat...and any feat for which the first feat is a prereq.

I don't thing having possession of the artifact would violate VoP; it's not like the PC is trying to claim it personally, right? It would be "held" by the party as a whole. The problem, as I see it, would be violating the "exalted" part of this by stealing a sacred artifact from a good church (see my answer in the other thread).
Legdiwena
11-20-07, 05:30 PM By Exalted Vow, are you referring to Sacred Vow? Evil acts violate every single Exalted feat (Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace, Vow of Poverty, and scores of others).
Delfedd
11-20-07, 05:40 PM Here's something that you could do.

Have your character roll another character.

Someone with less... firm morals.

This character can be a contact with the players. While the Thri-Kreen is off saving babies or whatever distraction the players use, Mr. Shadowy rogue steps in.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TexasDM 11-20-07, 04:00 PM	Greetings! I am currently running an epic level campaign. One of the PCs is a Thrikreen fighter with the Vow of Poverty feat. Although the feat inhibits the PC more than it helps, a specific problem - a moral dilemma - keeps arising during game play. The situation arises when the party needs, or decides to do something that conflicts with the requirements of maintaining the Vow of Poverty feat. For example: stealing an artifact from the church of a good deity. To maintain the benefits of the Vow of Poverty the PC cannot participate in this portion of the adventure. Does the PC, in order to maintain the benefits of the Vow of Poverty, have to try and stop his companions from committing a crime? And if they don't try and stop their companions do they lose the benefits of the Vow of Poverty feat?
Sarella Starshine 11-20-07, 04:11 PM	Just because one person has the Vow of Proverty does not mean that other party members are so restricted. I would think that the objection about stealing from a Good church with a Good party has to do less with the Vow, and more with the idea that they somehow must steal this artifact instead of talking to the church and getting the item in a more legal mannor. The Proverty one is more personal in nature, as it restricts what the person can do/use, unlike the vow of Peace and Nonviolence ones, which DO place restrictions on the party (cannot fight for one and nonleathal only for the other (not sure which one does what)). Just because the person has made a Vow to do without materal items, does not mean they expect or even require another person to do so.
Lormador 11-20-07, 04:14 PM	Whether Vow of Poverty benefits are at risk depends on the situation. Clearly we're not talking about something so clear-cut as the character being allowed to use some equipment- intelligent items is a different question. VoP characters still don't get to use those. The question is also not whether the act in question is good or not. You're concerned with whether or not you should strip Vow of Poverty benefits. Regardless of the goodness of the action, the character has made a special commitment to not use certain kinds of gear. He has not made a commitment to prevent others from doing so. He can participate in the theft as long as he doesn't use the equipment himself. Whether this is against some other aspect of his alignment or ethos isn't your question: you asked about his Vow. It is not threatened. Now, whether he may be breaking other aspects of his ethos, such as any Vows of Obedience or a lawful nature, has to be handled differently. Divide up any question into its component parts and answer them individually to avoid becoming confused.
Legdiwena 11-20-07, 04:49 PM	But stealing from a good church would be an evil act which would violate any exalted feat, not just VoP.
Lormador 11-20-07, 04:52 PM	It would violate Exalted Vow but I do not see why it would violate the subsidiary vows specifically designed to forbid or control a certain form of behavior. Otherwise how would the vows be independently meaningful?
Legdiwena 11-20-07, 04:57 PM	It would violate Exalted Vow but I do not see why it would violate the subsidiary vows specifically designed to forbid or control a certain form of behavior. Otherwise how would the vows be independently meaningful? Not sure what other feats you referring to, please elaborate.
Talisman 11-20-07, 05:22 PM	It would violate Exalted Vow but I do not see why it would violate the subsidiary vows specifically designed to forbid or control a certain form of behavior. Otherwise how would the vows be independently meaningful? Since Exalted Vow is a prereq for the various Vow feats, if you violate EV (and lose the use of it), you lose the other Vows as well. Sort of like, if your Strength drops below 13 you lose Power Attack, and Cleave if you have it, and Great Cleave if you have it, etc. You no longer meet the prerequisites, therefore you lose the feat...and any feat for which the first feat is a prereq. I don't thing having possession of the artifact would violate VoP; it's not like the PC is trying to claim it personally, right? It would be "held" by the party as a whole. The problem, as I see it, would be violating the "exalted" part of this by stealing a sacred artifact from a good church (see my answer in the other thread).
Legdiwena 11-20-07, 05:30 PM	By Exalted Vow, are you referring to Sacred Vow? Evil acts violate every single Exalted feat (Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace, Vow of Poverty, and scores of others).
Delfedd 11-20-07, 05:40 PM	Here's something that you could do. Have your character roll another character. Someone with less... firm morals. This character can be a contact with the players. While the Thri-Kreen is off saving babies or whatever distraction the players use, Mr. Shadowy rogue steps in.