Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ratguy629 03-08-04, 04:26 AM	i have had many debates about alingment for charecters my players like to play monsters but alingments been a big issue what do you do when a player wants to play a charecter of a always alingment? i like to give players lots of possibilitys for charecters but should i allow a CN demon bard? then theres the possiblilitys of templates i have been thinking about the Risen and repentent fiend- Risen (good) wanting to correct his/her misdeeds and repentent (neutral) being sorry but not going around correcting everything. Also fallen (evil) and what ever the fancy word but forgot for nuetralilty. If i decide to make the templates what abilitys should i give them? I know theres a corrupt and exalted templates in the BOVD and BOED but i dont have any money right now so itll be my own creation.....
Starcrossed 03-08-04, 05:35 AM	I think that you have to kind of judge on a case by case basis. But no, always doesn't mean always as I see it. There SHOULD be exceptions in some races. Like with werecreatures. It doesn't make sense to me that they are all always a certain alignment. Maybe MOST should be. But not all. With demons, thats much more iffy. They really are made to be evil incarnate. If they are part something else maybe they shouldn't have to be. But a good demon or even a neutral one would be hard to justify. Now as a counter I have seen in a module fallen Trumpet Archons. So I suppose if one of them could go evil, then it should also be possible for a demon to be good. However, I have always had a shifted view on good and evil. I don't believe they truly ballance. I look at evil as corrupting and turning others to its ways. But good being something of choice, and so wouldn't be turning demons from evil to good, as they wouldn't logically choose it. So again, its up to you to decide WHY they would be good and then yes, ignore that always means always thing. A GM makes the rules so do them as you feel its most logical to your views.
Sucineri 03-08-04, 07:10 AM	I see good turning to evil in a heartbeat..but from evil to good..not so sure about it..I would give it neutral at most probably..unless there is a SERIOUSLY good back-story for the character. (I won't say "or npc" cuz I couldn't design a story well enough for it to work, heh)
NinjaHedge 03-08-04, 07:13 AM	it actually says in the MM that always doesn't mean without exception
SputnikCorp 03-08-04, 07:31 AM	all demons are born bad. but during their lives it's possible for that one in a billion chance that a demon might question it's actions. so it is possible for a demon (or any creature with the 'always' tag) to change alignment. it's in the rules if you read the MM.
Ssussunriyh 03-08-04, 08:09 AM	It's possible, but the possibility is so absurdly remote that, for the sake of continuity in your campaign, such a character should only be allowed once - ever. These mold-breaking PCs are like strings; every yo-yo has gotta have one. :rolleyes:
the_heart 03-08-04, 10:12 AM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh It's possible, but the possibility is so absurdly remote that, for the sake of continuity in your campaign, such a character should only be allowed once - ever. These mold-breaking PCs are like strings; every yo-yo has gotta have one. :rolleyes: hmm! if they play to the stereotype, they lack imagination. if they break the mold they're 'yo-yo's'. sounds like choosing an interesting character is becoming more and more a lose-lose situation to me. ;) IMHO PC's are the exception to any rule, they are the 'one-in-a-million'. if i'm allowing monster characters and they want to play a LG succubus paladin-i say go for it. similarly if i need a LG red dragon for my story, then by all the gods there will be a LG red dragon. rules be damned. that said, i will use the default alignment in all other instances. so i reckon 'always' means 'when there isn't a good reason not too'. :)
Lady Avara 03-08-04, 10:47 AM	I had a guy run a cursed incubus. The incubus had been cursed to repent from his evil by a very powerful cleric. I left all his evil abilities in place, and told him if he was good enough, the dieties would see his work and assist him in becoming a celestial. His type would change from CE to CG outsider, and instead of desecrate he would get consecrate, etc. But first he had to do alot of good deeds to make up for all the evil he had done. He really did try too, helped rebuild a good temple, killed other demons, etc. He wasn't so much an avenger, paladin type though, just tried to undo any evil he saw in people more than he tried to kill evil creatures.
halzmar of geoff 03-08-04, 10:52 AM	Extraplanar alignment is different than things living on the material plane. The tend to be the paragon of the ideals of the alignment. While I agree that mortal beings have the capacity for change in behavior and belief as regards to alignment - most demons start out as petitioneers to the lower planes because they had their shot as a mortal and were right unrepentive evil to the core - then they spent centuries rising up the heirarchy from a Dretch to Imp to greater demon - no room for change they are straight up sent to the abyss for their sins evil - that's why they are always evil unless you have a real good explanation why it would be otherwise - and it better be a good explanation. Now if they got affected by a helm of opposing alignment or some other thing which returned their ability to change their belief/outlook such as a curse or ritual - then they can roll with that - but there will always be the possiblity their old personality will emerge much to their companion's discomfort. I wouldn't allow a CN demon as a PC - it's more or less as destructive as a CE demon - the guy would be a servant of chaos in the extreme sense - wouldn't care if he turned a house into choclate or rubble just as long as he changed it. Outsiders are often paragons of the idea behind a given alignment - they will take it to the extreme. However, if you wanted to give a player his mortality back and let him make a play for redemption that's fine too - give him the half-fiendish template and see what how he does.
Mirtek 03-08-04, 11:00 AM	1. Always does not truly mean always. It says so right there in the Core Rules 2. There are both risen fiends and fallen celestials, TSR/WotC gave us plenty examples of both 3. While risen/fallen fiends/celestials are rare, don't forget that we are talking about an infinite number of fiends/celestials. So no matter how small the percentage of risen/fallen is among them, with an infinite number of base creatures even 1 in a 1,000,000,000,000,000,[...],000 will result in an infinite number of risen/fallen fiends/celestials 4. So depending on where you hang out, it doesn't have to be the least unusual to meet a good fiend or an evil celestial
Millennium 03-08-04, 12:59 PM	"Always" means that this alignment is somehow born into the creature, be it by instinct or by some magical means. This is particularly true of outsiders, but dragons and similarly powerful magical beings There are generally only two ways for such a being to change alignment. It can, of course, be done by magical means, such as Savage Species' Ritual of Alignment or the BoED's Sanctify the Wicked. These basically create a creature with the new alignment, with few differences from the old. It is theoretically possible for an always-aligned creature to change alignment without the aid of magic, but this is extraordinarily rare, because the creature will have to constantly fight off instinctual urges to return to (or at least act according to) his former alignment. Most creatures in this category eventually either regress to their previous alignment, or use magic to finalize" the change.
Ratguy629 03-08-04, 05:33 PM	lets look away from demons for the moment and look at something els like the troll 6int always CE what is makeing this guy evil exactly if he was reared by elves why couldint they make it neutrol or evin good?
zodiki 03-08-04, 06:15 PM	PCs are special, I wouldn't confine them to the AL listed in the MM. Outsiders would need the most explanation, but anything can be back-storied without a lot of effort.
The_Dark_One 03-08-04, 06:28 PM	I think the thing to remember about outsiders is that they probably have free will (they wouldn't be very effective agents otherwise). This makes them fully able to decide how they want to act. Going against their racial alignment is unlikely, because they are built to be that way. Also, any who go against the grain of outsider society are eliminated. Note: I don't use the idea that human souls become outsiders. In games I run, demons, devils, celestials, etc. are created in their original forms. Human souls remain human souls. Does anyone else use this approach? I wasn't aware that any D&D book had outsiders being created from souls.
Loren Pechtel 03-08-04, 08:54 PM	Originally posted by The_Dark_One I think the thing to remember about outsiders is that they probably have free will (they wouldn't be very effective agents otherwise). This makes them fully able to decide how they want to act. Going against their racial alignment is unlikely, because they are built to be that way. Also, any who go against the grain of outsider society are eliminated. As far as I'm concerned, anything with free will can be of any alignment. On the other hand, I have serious doubts about something with a powerful alignment becoming *NEUTRAL*.
halzmar of geoff 03-08-04, 10:44 PM	Originally posted by The_Dark_One I wasn't aware that any D&D book had outsiders being created from souls. Manual of the Planes - pg 100 details abyssal petitioners contains the passage - "Manes that survive many years are sometimes "promoted" to lesser demon types". Pg 108 - details petitioners of Hades says - "the rare "lucky" larva is sometimes promoted to a lower form of fiend" and Pg 116 details the Nine Hells - "Particularly vile petitioners become lemures." While not 3rd edition the module Return of the Eight contained Turny the Merciless of Iron Flask fame - a being who had worked his way up the heirarchy to become a greater fiend.
Mirtek 03-09-04, 03:29 AM	Originally posted by Millennium "Always" means that this alignment is somehow born into the creature, be it by instinct or by some magical means. This is particularly true of outsiders, but dragons and similarly powerful magical beings There are generally only two ways for such a being to change alignment. It can, of course, be done by magical means, such as Savage Species' Ritual of Alignment or the BoED's Sanctify the Wicked. These basically create a creature with the new alignment, with few differences from the old. It is theoretically possible for an always-aligned creature to change alignment without the aid of magic, but this is extraordinarily rare, because the creature will have to constantly fight off instinctual urges to return to (or at least act according to) his former alignment. Most creatures in this category eventually either regress to their previous alignment, or use magic to finalize" the change. Actually it's not really unusual at all for demons to change their alignment without aid of magic. That's part of the chaos in the Abyss. It specifically says so in Faces of Evik: The Fiends