Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DraconsNighthawk 06-15-06, 10:55 PM	Recent converstation I had on a IM. dracons_nighthawk: how ya doing? Brian : passable Brian : u? dracons_nighthawk: good XD Brian : been triing to hook up w/ another gaming group dracons_nighthawk: =( don't like ours? Brian : so-so Brian : it's a good starter group dracons_nighthawk: .... dracons_nighthawk: how so Brian : u guys (u & john) really know the details of 3.5 Brian : unfortunately u think of them as rules Brian : they aren't dracons_nighthawk: o_O Brian : just guidelines dracons_nighthawk: O...k... what would you change then master of the game?? Brian : more sarcasm... i'm just commenting Brian : u asked dracons_nighthawk: Ok, bite the sarcasim, what would you change, what do you mean by guildlnes? Brian : u don't need to (and probably won't change much) thats alright, it's still enjoyable dracons_nighthawk: I still want to know how you mean that. Brian : for example, u called it powergaming Brian : it's alright if kept in check Brian : but u don't allow it at all dracons_nighthawk: o_O I don't allow Pun-Pun. What do you mean I don't allow power gaming? Brian : what's pun-pun dracons_nighthawk: A level 12 kobold psion, who, by the rules of the game has every feat, spell, power, ability, DR, and stats of 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000 in all fields. Brian : i remember Brian : he has such a stupid name dracons_nighthawk: Just proof that Wizards needs to be more careful how they word their abilties Brian : i didn't want that dracons_nighthawk: then what was it? Brian : move that decimal 30 places left and he would still be far more powerful than i would ever allow in MY game, much less ask for in a starting char. Brian : what I was refering to dracons_nighthawk: I somehow don't allow power gaming, which is what I'm confused about. Brian : shut up, i'm telling u Brian : i wasn't satisfied with the available feats for my thief (i think) Brian : i saw 1 or 2 i liked but weren't available for another level or 2 Brian : u wouldn't let me Brian : maybe it was a different char. Brian : but that was the situation dracons_nighthawk: o_O never had a thief in my game bro. Brian : I KNOW Brian : Brian_and_Jo (6/15/2006 7:25:02 PM): maybe it was a different char. dracons_nighthawk: But in anycase, if ya don't meet the preqes for feat, nobody can take them. Brian : that's what u said Brian : u called it powergaming Brian : i called it being a hard-ass dracons_nighthawk: It be a rare dm that allows characters access to feats that don't meet the preqes. Good luck with that. Brian : it was 1 little thing among many others Brian : no big deal by itself, a real pain when taken all together dracons_nighthawk: What are the other things. I need to be a improve dm, so i'm always looking for ways to fix them. dracons_nighthawk: What other things do you dislike? Brian : u allowed only the basic races in the jungle Brian : and never +races dracons_nighthawk: I'm like that all the time. Mostly because if your a plus race, you be even lower level. Brian : that's assumed Brian : it comes with the territory Brian : by choosing that race, u accept the penalties dracons_nighthawk: Listen, most of the characters are already 2 levels ahead of you, by being a plus race you'd have some advatanges, but not enough to survive with lesser class skills/abilities and hp Brian : i didn't neccessarily mean in that particular situation but any dracons_nighthawk: I rarely if ever allow plus races in my game. Brian : and there must be dozens -- at least -- of races that werent + but not standard Brian : that's what i meant, maybe u should Brian : be a little more flexible Brian : maybe that's too big a leap for u dracons_nighthawk: I am flexible. Howevever, your in the middle of the chult. I'm surprise I didn't just allow human and wild dwarves, and halfling since those are the only races in that region. Brian : a smaller leap would be to allow past chars. back dracons_nighthawk: What, Sin? Brian : of course not! Brian : he's the only 1 u SHOULDNT allow back!!! dracons_nighthawk: Ok, so your psion, who I wanted you to play, but you didnt? Brian : told u already Brian : but here it is again Brian : i like to have a variety of chars. to draw on Brian : 1 dies, another steps up Brian : no screwing around with rolling it up, ect. it's already done Brian : it takes a lot of thought to create a char. that's engaging enough to be worth playing dracons_nighthawk: Shawn, John, Tom, David have all done it easily enough. You put 8 1/2 pages of work into making your psion's past, why not jsut stick with him? Brian : not pgs., chapters (7 1/2) Brian : i wanted to but not right away dracons_nighthawk: even better then. Brian : hello? dracons_nighthawk: I'm here. dracons_nighthawk: What was wrong with playing the psion? Brian : Brian_and_Jo (6/15/2006 7:44:30 PM): i wanted to but not right away Brian_and_Jo (6/15/2006 7:40:48 PM): i like to have a variety of chars. to draw on Brian_and_Jo (6/15/2006 7:41:09 PM): 1 dies, another steps up Brian_and_Jo (6/15/2006 7:41:50 PM): no screwing around with rolling it up, ect. it's already done dracons_nighthawk: So a bigger headache for me. Just you sayiong, "Ok, I'm playing my mage today, next week playing my thief, have to switch out" type of deal. He has yet to reply. But this player loves to meta-game when he can, provac the other players. For example, they charged into a lycan bar, and the barbarian is taking a beating, but not doing much damage. We had to close the game after the fight, but the very first thing he tells the barbarian is that was not a force of a nature like the wizard claimed he was. (Just one of the many insult and taunts he has done to the barbarian in general, but as his psion and archer). Am I a bad DM for not allowing plus races when the others are barely forrth/fifth level, have no reason to switch out (I.E in the middle of the dungeon in a CHult). Or not allowing feats that he doesn't meet the preqes for? Edit: Erasing his last name . :weep: Forgot it was there.
capnwoodrow 06-15-06, 11:04 PM	I would say give the guy what he wants a session or two, but I highly doubt he'll back for another game anytime soon. His reasons kept changing...seemed flighty.... Honestly this is the kind of conflict all DMs have with players when they aren't "Yes DMs." Not that there is anything wrong with being a DM who allows anything....
FeceMan 06-15-06, 11:15 PM	Am I a bad DM for not allowing plus races when the others are barely forrth/fifth level, have no reason to switch out (I.E in the middle of the dungeon in a CHult). Or not allowing feats that he doesn't meet the preqes for? No. Not at all. The player is in the wrong.
guru7892 06-15-06, 11:17 PM	this seems like more of a problem with the player. He can't choose a charictar and he's getting hurt for it. It might be bets to restrict him to one charictar, but he will hate you for it. Probably placing that idea as a suggestion would be a better idea. there is nothing wrong with having a backup charictar, but if you are rotating 3 or so charictars your effectiveness will get shot pretty fast. cut him a deal, IF he swiches to playing ONLY ONE charictar, you will bring him up two levels to be at par with the rest of the party. (to be honest, I am like this, if I had a chioce I would run a diffrent charictar every week, but that would just suck for the party, it wouldn't make logical sense, and my charictars would suffer.)
The Philosopher King 06-15-06, 11:27 PM	It's definitely not you, Dracons. It seems like his playing style doesn't really mesh with yours - ie wanting + races and so on, which you've reasonably as the DM not allowed. That's basically a matter of personal preference. Assuming you laid down those sorts of house rules at the get-go, then it's all good. As to wanting feats he won't have the prereqs for for several levels, that's insane! What's the point of playing a structured game like D&D if basic things like that get chucked?! Seems like the type that always wants to have exactly what they want and when and has a bit of a hissyfit if someone disagrees. Personally, I'd let them go harass someone else. Although he is right, using feats you don't have access to (whether via prereqs or DM approval) isn't 'powergaming'. I believe 'cheating', or 'playing a different game' are closer approximations :)
Ics 06-15-06, 11:31 PM	Is he new to D&D? I know when i started, i bothered my DM for ages about being a half-dragon, but that was because i didn't understand the impact it would have on the game. although if he really wants to play a 'plus' race, i'd say let him, as long as his character's ECL is equal to (or less than) the rest of the party. perhaps it'll be fun, or perhaps he'll learn his lesson. The feat thing, on the other hand, is a little more troubling. the prerequisites on feats are clearly set out and are obviously there for a reason. if he just wants to ignore the prerequisites, perhaps you should have a longer chat with him (and perhaps face-to-face as well) about why the feat system is set up the way it is.
Crimson_Concerto 06-15-06, 11:38 PM	This player wants feats he doesn't qualify for, he wants to play races with an LA is that low-powered a game, and wants to play many characters at once? What? I am under the impression this player is insane. I mean, very few DMs allow more than one character per player, and it's very common for a DM not to allow ECL races. The feats thing is... what? O___o Tell him good luck finding a DM who will let him have feats he can't take...
BW0222 06-15-06, 11:58 PM	DraconsNighthawk, The goal of D&D is to have fun. A good DM is always one where you walk away from the game saying "That was fun." Unfortunately, there are several key issues with this. "Fun" means different things to different people Some people like combat, others like roleplaying, some like high-magic, others like low-magic, some like strange and weird, others like standard and normal. Some like Greyhawk, others Arcanis, others Ebberon, others FR, etc. Some like high-levels others like low-levels. Some like dungeon crawls, others like political stuff, others like mysteries, etc. There is nothing wrong with someone enjoying something and disliking something else. The key is that what makes one player have fun might make another not have fun. Honestly, you can't please every body all the time and it is a mistake to try. And... the middle ground route typically just makes everyone unhappy. Sometimes you honestly have to drop folks from the game. Don't take offense, don't offend them, but just make it clear that the type of game being run isn't for everyone. No shame or offense in bowing out. You have to have "fun" DMs are people and have likes and dislikes on types of campaigns also. Even the best DMs would get bored, give a secord-rate job, etc. if forced to run a campaign world/system/style which they personally don't like. At some point, even if the other players want something which you don't, your ability to provide it is limited. If it is too far outside of your comfort zone, in the end no one is likely to have fun. Players don't see the big picture. Players obviously know when they are having fun, but since they didn't built the campaign, they often don't exactly what worked and didn't work since they don't know what the DM did intentionally or unintentionally. Was this outcome planned or just a fluke? Was this NPC designed to be so hated? Was that NPCs supposed to be so silly or is it just bad roleplaying? The DM gets to sit back, knowing the entire picture, and analyse the good and the bad. If you ask a pure player (one who doesn't DM alot) what would make the campaign better, you typically get a specific "more" list. More treasure, more power, more abilities, etc. You almost never get a player saying "Too much treasure" or "We are too powerful." They almost never approach it from the thought process of what would happen if said things happened. If you ask a player who DMs alot, you'll typically get answers about how they would handle the campaign. They will likely point of DMing style difference, pace issues, mixture of encounters, rulings, etc. They are less likely to say "more stuff" because they realize that balancing issues. More stuff, mean more power, means either easier fights (which is eventually boring) or more powerful opponents (which leads to uneven fights). "Fun" has to be maintained What makes a player happy today won't necessarily make folks happy tomorrow. A powerful item will get squeels of joy today and ten sessions of boredom as a powerful item dominates the game. Attempts to then 'power-down' the item get decried by 'nerfing my character' complaints, etc. >Am I a bad DM for not allowing plus races when the others are barely >forrth/fifth level, have no reason to switch out (I.E in the middle of the >dungeon in a CHult). Nope. You are intelligent (and/or experienced) enough to realize what the player doesn't. High EL+ races balance levels with specific abilities. A normal race PC group are evenly matched with abilities, hit points, BAB, etc. vs. their likely foes. There are few "instant nerf" situations where one side has an ability which the other side can't cope with. However, with high-ECL you get a rock-paper-sissors game of special abilities against special abilities. If the PCs win, they slaughter their foes with little or no risk to themselves. However, if their foes win, they slaughter the PCs with little or no hope that the PCs can survive. >Or not allowing feats that he doesn't meet the preqes for? Nope. Basic rules need to be followed. Rules maybe guidelines for the DM, but they are always rules for the players. If a DM decides what rules are in effect, the easiest way to nerf a campaign is to start changing them whenever a player complains.
LandeM 06-16-06, 12:28 AM	This player wants feats he doesn't qualify for, he wants to play races with an LA is that low-powered a game, and wants to play many characters at once? What? I am under the impression this player is insane. I mean, very few DMs allow more than one character per player, and it's very common for a DM not to allow ECL races. The feats thing is... what? O___o Tell him good luck finding a DM who will let him have feats he can't take... I agree with this post 100% in response to the OP
Vaalingrade Ashland 06-16-06, 01:09 AM	I pity whatever gaming group this guy ends up with. "I should be able to take feats without meeting the prereqs... see, because they're guidelines, not rules. Also, I should be able to be a MUCH higher ECL than normal -- because they're guidelines, not rules." He'd have a fit if you did something not in favor of his character 'because they're guidelines, not rules.' Tell him to go find that other gaming group, but warn him that if the new DM is really a DM and not an enslaved screenmonkey, that crap's not going to fly with him either. Then laugh derisively right before blocking his IM screen name.
towerwrath 06-16-06, 02:34 AM	This guy's a loon. Tell him that yes rules are more like guidelines, but you are the DM and as such you decide what rules to follow and what not to. If he has a problem with that then maby he should go start his own group. After that if he is still part of your group tell him to read the PHB cover to cover. As far as so called +creatures personally if it has a level adjuster of 0 I allow it but like I said that is entirely up to you. To answer your question, Are you a bad DM, no. You just have your own style, as dll DM's do no two are the same.
Evingolis 06-16-06, 02:48 AM	dont worry too much about that guy, DragonNighthawk. he is a jerk. you will never really please him, if you give him one thing, he will search for another let him live as the centre of his world, but dont worry. he will not worry for you one thing: you should clear his nickname to keep him (better) anonymous.
WayneTheGame 06-16-06, 07:18 AM	Don't worry, you are not a bad DM. This player sounds like the munchkin type; "The rules are just guidelines so I should be able to take Improved Critical at 1st level!" or "They're guidelines, not rules, so why can't I play a half-fiend/half-dragon with no LA? You should house-rule that for me." ... yeah, right. This guy sounds like a nutjob, and I highly doubt he'll find a DM (at least a competant DM) who would let him pull this crap at the table. The question is this: Can your gaming group survive without this guy? If yes -> let him go, you're in the right here. If not -> Try to find another player who isn't a munchkin to replace this wacko.
DraconsNighthawk 06-16-06, 10:58 AM	Thanks for all your replies. I'm glad to know I aint nuts about this, or a bad dm. We talked more, and he mentioned he wanted the game to be more like Lupin the third, which I've heard of but never seen. Can't promise him anything, he says he'll stick with his cleric for now though. We'll see how it works out. Thanks again for the replies.
Arganis 06-16-06, 12:23 PM	he wanted the game to be more like Lupin the third :yuck:
kliate 06-16-06, 12:32 PM	In my experience, "character hopping" is generally just a phase. Even I went through it when I was trying to get a feel for 3.5 (bouncing between an Elf Druid, Half-Orc Barbarian, and with a half-dozen char's kept in reserve). The feat issue suggests to me that your player wants a more powerful character. In and of itself, that isn't much of a problem (at least half of D&D is about getting more powerful, after all). The fact that he's a few levels behind the others is probably why there's a conflict in the first place. The problem probably stems from your player feeling overshadowed by the abilities of the other characters. My suggestions: -Allow the player to create a new character, within the normal rules, 1 level below the party and half way to gaining his next level (ie, 8000 XP if the party is 5th level). A few encounters should be enough to get him to his next level. -Inform the player that the going rule is one character at a time for one campaign. If one character dies, he can bring in a replacement; but doing so keeps the previous character dead (no rezzes for the replaced character) -If the player repeatedly "suicides" characters to bring in his latest and greatest character idea, make the introduction of the new character less and less convenient, and inflict level loss accordingly. Make sure the player knows that suiciding of characters is going to put him further and further behind the party in terms of power and wealth. -Suggest that the player continue using his current character (if applicable) until his replacement is one he is comfortable working with for the long term. I suspect from the chat transcript that a Ranger would be a step in the right direction.
Radijs 06-16-06, 12:34 PM	I'm going to skip about the feats and the LA+ races. No sense in copying everyone else. But I don't think I understand the last bit really. He wants to have multiple characters to choose from as he pleases? Like "Today I'll play a wizard while we're visiting Spire Arcanis and When we hit town I'll switch to my rogue"? If thats the case he's a real nutjob!
Radijs 06-16-06, 12:36 PM	I'm going to skip about the feats and the LA+ races. No sense in copying everyone else. But I don't think I understand the last bit really. He wants to have multiple characters to choose from as he pleases? Like "Today I'll play a wizard while we're visiting Spire Arcanis and When we hit town I'll switch to my rogue"? If thats the case he's a real nutjob and you're right for not allowing it.
Khan2000 06-16-06, 01:24 PM	I usually tell everyone what they are allowed during character creation. Generally, I allow full skill points, highest LA is +2, and anything that I feel would make the game interesting and fun. For new players, I try to keep them with core classes and races (until they have a competent understanding of the rules). Sounds like this guy is fairly new to D&D, due to the fact that he is asking for outrageous stuff; he's probably got a basic understanding of D&D. I'd probably see if he'd like to try DMing. If he's thinking about what he can do with his character, I'd like to see how he does with a campaign he sets up.
Solik 06-16-06, 01:28 PM	Link him here :D
Doodle 06-16-06, 02:53 PM	dracons_nighthawk: Listen, most of the characters are already 2 levels ahead of you Any DM that runs a campaign where there is more than 1 level difference between all the players is a bad DM in my book. As a player you want to feel useful and feel like you are contributing. If everyone is 2 or more levels higher than you, you feel useless. This is especially true if you enjoy playing melee characters or direct damage casters. You don't have the AC/Hits/BAB/DC/Spells to really mix it up with monsters of the ECL and CR rating of the rest of the party. Let him run a character at the same level as the rest of the part and then go from there. Me.
Toloran 06-16-06, 03:24 PM	Just as a fairness thing, He should have been allowed to make a character who was one level below the rest of the group instead of two. At two levels he either A) Won't be able to help the group very much, B) Will die alot or C) Be a wallflower and not do anything. As far as taking feats before you meet the requirements: Feats have a requirement for a reason. Generally so that characters have a steady progression in power as they level up. Also to keep things from becoming two over powered. On the subject of rules as guidelines: He is correct to a degree. However, it isn't his perogative as to what rules to follow and what ones to not follow: It is the DMs (ie, you) and if he wants something changed, then he has to convince you to do it (rolling a diplomacy check won't cut it). And if you say no and he still wants it to be some other way he can go find another group who will (or start his own). Although good luck on finding a group that allows even half of what he wants. On the subject of +races: This falls under the DMs perogative. My group is a fairly casual group with only a single "powergamer" (who actually is the DM most of the time, but we rotate around alot). Hence, RP has a larger role. My personal rule is that players should stick to core races and races with 0 LA. If they want a race with a level adjust, they have to have a good RP reason to do it. In addition, he has to convince the party (the characters, not the players) to let him join them. In general though I allow most +1 LA races. Finally, I agree: That guy was either spoiled or insane (probably one of those people who download cheats for every game they play). You simply cannot please those people. In addition, they get bored really quickly and lose interest in the game.
DraconsNighthawk 06-16-06, 08:30 PM	I should have mentioned why he was two levels below: Mostly due to the fact he skips games alot, and doesn't like to roleplay, so the others get more xp just for the fact they show up.
cynnder 06-16-06, 11:14 PM	In my current game we also have a player who is constantly trying to get around the rules....having knowledge checks in almost everything from local to arcane( he's a fighter, no levels of Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric (he also has a knowledge check for religion), etc. Generally he thinks his character is more like Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan, than a fighter who wears heavy armor. He jumping around all over the place and when our DM telling him he has penalties, then it's an hour long discussion about what happens in the 'real world'. When our DM rules against him in something, he'll pout and not show up for a few weeks, and then show up like nothing happened. As a DM (I've never been one yet, I can imagine how difficult it must be for all DM's out there) I think you should also take into account the other players opinions. Is it fun for them? Do they have any critiques? If there are no other complaints (besides minor ones) then I would say NO, you are not a bad DM. He is a player who will remain unhappy until he gets his way. If he's only disruptive to you personally, then he's being disruptive to all of the players. I would give him one more chance, and if he messes up, then cut him. :twocents:
Morrowner 06-17-06, 12:17 AM	I can understand minor tweaking and even allowing homebrew races and even prestige classes and 1 to 20 classes into the game with approval. But not following LA/ECL and feat and class prereqs is crazy. A lot of time this guideline bullcrap is just and excuse for a prima donna to get more attention and power. He says he likes the game, don't break it to accomodate this power hungry megalomaniac. Lay the law down.Its the only way to stop a game from devolving into chaos. If you cave Sue and Joe and Will are gonna be on your jock saying the equivalent of what we all learned in grade school: Don't give gum out unless you give it out to everybody. Tell him that if you throw out these fundamental rules you're not really playing a game anymore, you're playing a medieval Cops and Robbers/Cowboys and Indians. If he doesn't realize that and stop acting so juvenile boot him. Nothing personal, just boot him.