Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Acefowl 08-04-05, 10:28 PM	I have this idea for starting out a campaign, and I wanted to get some feedback on if/how it could work. I’ve been reading a lot of posts lately on railroading the players, and I think I might be doing that with this intro, but I wanted some input on what I’m doing right and wrong, changes I could make and the like. I plan to start the group inside a dungeon. But not as delvers, as its constructors. Unwilling constructors. Before the campaign started, the players were captured by a group of demi-humans and carted off to a half-built dungeon for the BBEG and forced to help finish it. Well, for a few days. The campaign starts one night a few days into their capture and they’ve been thrown into the same cell. Of course, they have no items in there, as they were seized before they were thrown in, but everything they own will be in a room not too far from theirs under lock and key, with the key being held by one of the guards. I want to make it a little bit easy to get their stuff back. That is, if they want to get it back. See, I don’t know how bad the railroading is because I want to give them the freedom to choose how they want to deal with the circumstances right off the bat. They wanna break out in quiet? Fine. They wanna fight their way out? Fine. They wanna start a revolt with the other prisoners? Fine. They wanna take over and force the other slaves to finish the plans? Fine. They wanna stay slaves and finish the dungeon, then probably be carted off to some other “work site”? Fine. No option will just be handed to them of course, but I wanna give them a chance to pursue any option that comes to them. I want to prepare for most any contingency since I fully expect the players to try stuff like that during the course of the campaign, especially since I’ve made no secret of telling the players this campaign’s gonna be a little weird. Not stupid weird, just…different. So…how bad is it? I had a really hard time in my last campaign getting the players to even remember the BBEG’s name the last time, let alone he even existed, so I feel I might be overcompensating this time by making him a force to recon with right off the bat. Especially if the group has a rogue with max Escape Artist and asks why he didn’t get a chance to break out earlier. Any suggestions? P.S. I apologize if this is in the wrong section. I wasn't sure.
Eightbitmage 08-04-05, 10:39 PM	Honestly this is fine. If someone wonders why they didn't break out earlier, ask them to explain how. After you listen, tell them they haven't found the right moment yet, but they think its coming soon. The start of almost every game has some railroading, mostly you want to avoid it after you start. or at least avoid letting players find out you are doing it.
celtredleg 08-04-05, 10:41 PM	How are they going to escape??? Starting as prisoners is not new, but I have never heard of being in a dungeon before. Starting a new game can be difficult espesially if the players are new. It sometimes takes a bit to get them going. SO yes, this is railroading, but I for one do not think it is to bad. It sounds like a good way to get them to get involved right away. My only real questions are how are they going to do much??? You list a lot of options, but can they really start doing them right away??? If so, great. If not, you need a little more work.
Milandros 08-04-05, 10:45 PM	This is, in my opionion. most definitely and completely not railroading. It's no more railroading than stating "you're all in an inn..." or "You're all in Waterdeep". If the players want to decide where they are when the campaign begins, you'll get one player in Menzoberran, one in Sigil, one in Eberron, one in Greyhawk, etc etc etc. You're the DM. You have to start them somewhere. Why not there? At least they won't wonder where to start - and in addition, you've given them an excellent reason to work together to escape, basically the beginning of forming a party. You could also, to set the scene, spend a few minutes with each player individually, to get them to help accept the situation. Explain that the game begins with their character a slave miner, and you'd like to work out how they got there together with them. Agree on a reason (captured, sold for bad debts, sentenced as a criminal, whatever....) Your players will then at least feel that they had a say in why they are there in the first place. You can also assure tham that the focus will start with them when the game begins, and that they are not expected to stay there as slaves unless they eant to. There's a technique that used to be recommended for the Star Wars RPG borrowed from the movies, and that's starting a game "In Media Res", basically in the middle of the action. Star Wars doesn't begin with Leia chairing a meeting to discuss stealing the Death Star plans, it begins with a fleeing corvette locked in battle with a Star Destroyer. This works better for an episodic game than a proper campaign, but for the beginning of the campaign there's nothing wrong with it at all.
Rising Dragon 08-04-05, 10:47 PM	You’re not railroading as long as the players are up to it. For this type of concept it might be better ask player before hand if they be interested starting out in a prison break out scenario. As some characters would be very difficult to play, like a wizard strip of his spell book, and others might have real easy time getting out like sorcerer or rogue. Not sure what level your starting out, but low levels would be the best as higher level characters would have to easy of time breaking out without you having to use a lot magical barriers. If you start at low levels I would avoid having all the characters loot being in one room close by (kind of unrealistic, and goes against your idea have characters use their wits to escape) I would have the characters start with little or no gear but compensate them by giving the opportunity to get decent gear. I think as long GM gave me idea what the campaign was start like I would be interested in the challenge.
Acefowl 08-04-05, 11:02 PM	Thankfully, none of the players are new. All have numerous campaigns under their belts, so there should be ideas a-plenty. And everyone's starting off at first level, so it actually will be a challenge. My original plan involved giving the players time to talk in character while in their cell about themselves and their lives, but it might be good to discuss with them some particulars ahead of time, especially the whole "slave labor" thing. I wanted it to be a surprise, but if there's a chance they'll be ****** right off the bat because of it, I might wanna let them know beforehand and ask if they're up to it. The loot thing I just invisioned as a room allocated as a "vault" where all the prisoner's items are kept until...whenever. I can see how it might be unrealistic, though. Maybe some of the guards found some choice items among their stuff and the group finds them with them later on? "Hey, he's wearing my armor!"
weasel fierce 08-06-05, 12:43 AM	If the players have fun, it doesnt matter if its "railroaded" or not.
Oakspar77777 08-06-05, 01:28 AM	Constraint is not railroading. Drop most PCs into a city with no backstory, no reason to work together, no adventure hooks, and they tend to get lost and bored in a hurry. It seems like you have come up with the perfect way to start a party together, working as a party, and I love the idea of them each getting a few moments to introduce themselves. Make escape an impossibility until some other even happens (rogue kept a chicken bone in his mouth from dinner to try to pick the manicles with, small earthquake, jailbreak in another cell provides oportunity, etc). The storys serve as into to the campaign, and the action that makes escape possible begins the action. A fork in a dungeon is not railroad, just because you have given players only one choice and both lead to similar threats. It is railroading only when both sides lead to the same threat, giving the players no choice at all.
Bartleby_GoC 08-06-05, 02:35 AM	Like most things, railroading is ok in small quantities. It's when things go overboard that you have a problem. In my earlier years, I had a tendancy to run 'games' that were more like the players listening to me tell a story than run a D&D game. The last of these ended with the party decided to stay put and me declaring "Fine! You're all dead." They looked on with disbeleife as I packed my stuff an left. I've improved since then. Nothing wrong with your set-up. So long as the story progresses based on the player's decisions, it's all good. Every choice may end up dealing with the same set of threats, but HOW they deal with them is the important part. They'll have to deal with guards and the slave master no matter what they do. Sneaking past, putting them all to sleep with a spell, and just plain slaughtering them are all different way to do it. I'd also reccoment not having stuff all in one place. That's TOO easy. In this situation, a poor quality knife is treasured. Do warn the wizards that they might have problems memorizing. I introduced a new character as a prisoner in a dungeon. I asked for a spell list and then crossed off what he'd already used. He still had a few left and was waiting for the right time to use them. A cleric is in trouble without a holy symbol. Allow her to make one from bones, twigs, bits of straw, etc. The focus is shabby, but the need is great, god will hear. ;) So long as everyone has SOME utility left, they won't feel helpless. Bartleby
AntiDjinn 08-06-05, 03:07 AM	Honestly, the game has to start somewhere. Simply picking a start point and plunking them down there is not railroading. Railroading means to run a linear game; one in which the story will play out as written no matter what actions the PCs take and all encounters will happen in a scripted order no matter what the PCs try to do about it. If you give them a start point then let them decide where to go from there then all you are really doing is getting the ball rolling and starting the game with a sense of urgency already in place.
danielinthewolvesden 08-06-05, 03:21 AM	This is not railroading. It's the start of a campaign. Start them naked on a desert island or in any circumastamces they have a reasonable chance of survining. Heck, i once started a campaign "Ok, you're all dead....." :eek: :b: Now, if in the middle of the campaign you said "OK, you all wake up as slaves in a dungeon....", then yes, it'd be railroading.
jaspercrey 08-06-05, 07:16 AM	danielinthewolvesden- Your idea is not quite railroading . . . . but it is ingenius. Bravo.
Acefowl 08-07-05, 01:35 AM	So from what I'm reading, this is a good way to start the campaign and it is not railroading as long as they have choices in their predicament and the story progresses based on those suggestions. This makes me feel a lot better about my idea. Thanx, peoples! I am hearing, however, the "vault" idea to be a bad one. I understand completely. Too easy, and unrealistic. Problem is, how else can I do it, without just telling the players the equivalent of "Oh, yeah..about those items you purchased pre-game? They're gone. And you'll never get them back. Nya nya." So far, the idea of the guards holding choice items of theirs is the only idea I've got. And I can't just make it so everything they own is being held by a guard, because that's also unrealistic. I suppose I could just let them know before the game not to buy anything, so just money is stolen, and that'll be easy enough to get back. Any other ideas on how to deal with the PC's items?
Oakspar77777 08-07-05, 01:58 AM	Honestly, the only things you are really taking out of classes is (1) a Wizard's Spellbook, (2) any Familiar not aquired in the Dungeon (rat, toad, snake, and some others would be ok, however, and a potential means of escape), (3) a Druid's animal companion (unless is also was something like a Dire Rat, in a very nasty dungeon). Taking out the animals is not that bad. Just let them get them for free as soon as they get out into the open for awhile (same freeness, only defered). The real problem is the Wizard's spellbook. A couple of options: first, they could have their spells on loose pages, filthy and tucked into their rags. Second: disallow wizards (this really depends on the rest of your campaign, is all of humanoid kind more or less enslaved? Is there anywhere to go where they won't be fugatives? If this is localized slavery, keep wizards. A world where good humanoids are enslaved, however, is probably too rough for wizards, and they should be replaced with Sorcerers (maybe giving Sorcs the extra feats, but make the first one open as well).) Third, make sure there is a level one wizard in the dungeon to defeat with his spellbook on him. (With all the spells your wizard wanted and a few extra. Just a few spellcraft checks away from claiming them all as his own (make sure there is also a case of exspensive inks there, so that the wizard does not have to shell out $$$ to get his original spells) put this guy near the front with a few scrolls on him too so that the Wizard, even without spells, is useful in the dungeon. Other than that, you are really not stealing that much from opening characters anyways, only a few hundred gold from the entire party. If they are fighting humanoid slaver guards to get out, they will find more than enough mundane weapons and armor to compensate long before they get out. Sounds like a fun campaign. I think my next "gritty" campaign will start like that in a world run by dragons and populated by orcs, goblins, kobalds and the like with PC races all enslaved or living as fringe geurillas. Let the PCs carve out a new world and a hope for PC-races-kind.
Gedrin 08-07-05, 04:33 AM	The DM is generally allowed to determine the setting of the game. Looks like that's all your doing. As long as the players have a chance to make characters knowing the environment they'll be playing in, I don't see a problem with it.
Bartleby_GoC 08-07-05, 04:50 PM	Regarding starting equipment, let them know not to bother. They can decide they type of arms and armor their character prefers and other things they want to pick up, but they start with nothing. Wizards and clerics will both have problems in this scenario unless you get creative. Clerics could create and bless a holy symbol, but it will be very crude. Wizards, as mentioned, will be in worse shape. I would reccomend against allowing crude spell pages. The PC will want to know why, once they've escaped, they suddently have to pay 100gp per page to copy spells into their spellbooks. There's several ways to deal with this. There could be a L1 wizard nearby (or perhaps just his quarters). The PC could still have a couple spells (if they were captured recently). You could just say "Playing a wizard, at least to start with, would be a bad idea. You can if you want, but be warned that things might be difficult for a little while." Bartleby
VirgilCaine 08-07-05, 05:33 PM	Wizards and clerics will both have problems in this scenario unless you get creative. Clerics could create and bless a holy symbol, but it will be very crude. Wizards, as mentioned, will be in worse shape. I would reccomend against allowing crude spell pages. There's several ways to deal with this. There could be a L1 wizard nearby (or perhaps just his quarters). The PC could still have a couple spells (if they were captured recently). You could just say "Playing a wizard, at least to start with, would be a bad idea. You can if you want, but be warned that things might be difficult for a little while." Bartleby Have the wizard be one of the jailers, not a prisoner. He has the PCs spellbook and his own. Have another group try and break out and so lots of guards are away from where the PCs are. A PC having a scroll would be different--maybe a scroll of Sleep or Knock or something to help break out. The PC could still have his cantrips, since he would probably have used his 1st level spells in trying to avoid capture. This isn't railroading, this is having a campaign start idea. Breaking out of a dungeon-in-construction is different and creative.
Tevish Szat 08-07-05, 06:31 PM	i'd say this is a decent campagin start. very creative. as for the wizard problem... i'd say that if you reall want to make it easy for him to get his starting spellbook, have the guards have thrown it somewhere obvious... like on top of the rubbish pile.
xver 08-07-05, 08:43 PM	It's not railroading to use DM fiat to bring the party together in some manner pregame. It saves on the ingame meeting, which is often contrived and filled with metagame motivations. On the other hand, an in game party formation can be a beautiful thing. If you want to give more feeling of choice, have each player run a solo combat vs a group of overly powerful slavers. Subdual damage can knock out an outnumbered lv1 character easily. Of course, this may be borderline railroading, but it's for the good of the story. In Dark Sun, it's fairly common to start the characters as slaves. This allows the GM to bring them together by having them all bought by the same owner. It also provides instant motivation for adventure and a choice: Risk death and exile by running away, attempt to earn one's freedom, or attempt to rise in the household's slave ranks. And the owner is an instant patron, of sorts. (A source of missions and adventure hooks, at least.)
20goingon1232 08-07-05, 08:48 PM	I have this idea for starting out a campaign, and I wanted to get some feedback on if/how it could work. I’ve been reading a lot of posts lately on railroading the players, and I think I might be doing that with this intro, but I wanted some input on what I’m doing right and wrong, changes I could make and the like. I plan to start the group inside a dungeon. But not as delvers, as its constructors. Unwilling constructors. Before the campaign started, the players were captured by a group of demi-humans and carted off to a half-built dungeon for the BBEG and forced to help finish it. Well, for a few days. The campaign starts one night a few days into their capture and they’ve been thrown into the same cell. Of course, they have no items in there, as they were seized before they were thrown in, but everything they own will be in a room not too far from theirs under lock and key, with the key being held by one of the guards. I want to make it a little bit easy to get their stuff back. That is, if they want to get it back. See, I don’t know how bad the railroading is because I want to give them the freedom to choose how they want to deal with the circumstances right off the bat. They wanna break out in quiet? Fine. They wanna fight their way out? Fine. They wanna start a revolt with the other prisoners? Fine. They wanna take over and force the other slaves to finish the plans? Fine. They wanna stay slaves and finish the dungeon, then probably be carted off to some other “work site”? Fine. No option will just be handed to them of course, but I wanna give them a chance to pursue any option that comes to them. I want to prepare for most any contingency since I fully expect the players to try stuff like that during the course of the campaign, especially since I’ve made no secret of telling the players this campaign’s gonna be a little weird. Not stupid weird, just…different. So…how bad is it? I had a really hard time in my last campaign getting the players to even remember the BBEG’s name the last time, let alone he even existed, so I feel I might be overcompensating this time by making him a force to recon with right off the bat. Especially if the group has a rogue with max Escape Artist and asks why he didn’t get a chance to break out earlier. Any suggestions? P.S. I apologize if this is in the wrong section. I wasn't sure. It is not railroading when it is done BEFORE the campaign started (ie., as a backstory). It is if you decree that it is the ONLY way the PCs will survive during game and anything the PCs do will not affect that, eg.: DM: You meet an old man that asks for your help. Players: We ignore him. DM: He is a powerful Archmage. He geas you to help him.
xver 08-07-05, 09:02 PM	DM: You meet an old man that asks for your help. Players: We ignore him. DM: He is a powerful Archmage. He geas you to help him. Using geas is not nessessarily railroading. It is, of course, subject to abuse by a railroading GM. If the Archmage is NE and need some lackies to do his bidding, well, he learned that spell for just such an occasion. If on the other hand, two seconds ago he was a CG lv3 commoner, it's railroading.
20goingon1232 08-07-05, 09:07 PM	Using geas is not nessessarily railroading. It is, of course, subject to abuse by a railroading GM. If the Archmage is NE and need some lackies to do his bidding, well, he learned that spell for just such an occasion. If on the other hand, two seconds ago he was a CG lv3 commoner, it's railroading. How were you as the players to tell? 99% of the time, it is a railroading DM. Due to past experience, it would require a LOT of justification from the DM if he pulled that sort of crap on me. I am not above walking out there and then (done that before).
Ut-Napishtim 08-07-05, 10:23 PM	Meh, I've never had to use Geas actually. Most of the time half my group is CN so I can easily use their own greed to motivate them. As far as the adventure goes, it's actually the same thing that was put out in Dungeon as the very first 3E adventure. In fact it was even for first level characters so folks could jump right into 3E with it. I still have the magazine, just not here - it's still in a box in storage until I move into my new place. Too bad, IIRC it was pretty good too. Yeah it's railroading - but not bad railroading. Every DM railroads the first few scenes of a new campaign to get the ball rolling, otherwise the party would never get together. They expect it, and as long as they have some xp and gear (whether or not they get their old stuff back doesn't matter) comparable to what they lost at the end of the night they should be cool with it.
loaba 08-07-05, 11:15 PM	Gonna have to go with the non-railroading crowd on this one. Nice introductory hook as well, should be grounds for keeping the party together in the future.
danielinthewolvesden 08-07-05, 11:21 PM	Regarding starting equipment, let them know not to bother. They can decide they type of arms and armor their character prefers and other things they want to pick up, but they start with nothing. You could just say "Playing a wizard, at least to start with, would be a bad idea. You can if you want, but be warned that things might be difficult for a little while." Bartleby This is a good idea. A good reason to play a Sorc as opposed to a Wiz- in any case. :D
Elrathh 08-08-05, 12:17 AM	Dunno if it's been said, but I think you should come back to this dungeon later on. It would be fun to fight in the same dungeon twice, however, the second time it's finished. Tip on the Escape Artist Rogue, don't tell them anything about the starting place until that session. This will reduce the temptation to custom make a character, who would probably end up dieing later anyways.
FriendoftheDork 08-08-05, 08:40 AM	escaping a dungeon on your own is very cinematic but also very unlikely. I mean why should the guards be incompetent and risk escaping prioners? Thus bring in some outside help. Perhaps a contact of the PCs, an ally, or one who's cause is on par with them. It might even be one of the guards or leaders withtin who wants them to escape without risking his own position. Or maybe someone who has fallen in love with one of them and risks his or her position to free them - such as bringing in a holy symbol and a spellbook (or just some scrolls), keys to the door, perhaps a small weapon etc. This will make the escape more believable and create an instant important NPC the PCs can have interaction with later. Or are they going to refuse their benefactor of a small favor later on? This NPC could even be the REAL villain, using the PCs for his own means... and when they find out they may be a bit ticked off... The possibilities are endless.
Bartleby_GoC 08-08-05, 09:02 AM	escaping a dungeon on your own is very cinematic but also very unlikely. I mean why should the guards be incompetent and risk escaping prioners? Heh. I like, and thus run, cinematic games. Thus bring in some outside help. Perhaps a contact of the PCs, an ally, or one who's cause is on par with them. It might even be one of the guards or leaders withtin who wants them to escape without risking his own position. Or maybe someone who has fallen in love with one of them and risks his or her position to free them - such as bringing in a holy symbol and a spellbook (or just some scrolls), keys to the door, perhaps a small weapon etc. This will make the escape more believable and create an instant important NPC the PCs can have interaction with later. Or are they going to refuse their benefactor of a small favor later on? This NPC could even be the REAL villain, using the PCs for his own means... and when they find out they may be a bit ticked off... The possibilities are endless. However, this is a great idea. The next time I run this sort of scenario, I will probably be using this. Bartleby
Brashnir 08-08-05, 12:00 PM	I don't think it's possible to "railroad" the start of a campaign. Putting them in a tense situation to begin with is an interesting way to start the story, and I don't see anything wrong with it. Just talk to your players beforehand and let them know what they're getting into. Let them come up with how they ended up imprisoned, so they don't feel completely out of control of their characters. It sounds like a great way to start a new campaign. hope it works out well.
Palin the Wizard 08-08-05, 01:58 PM	Every DM railroads the first few scenes of a new campaign to get the ball rolling, otherwise the party would never get together. Not necessarily. I started a campaign where I basically told the players, "OK. You guys need to come up with a party that works, and where the characters are actually friends. You will already have adventured for a while, so you know each other pretty well. Find reasons why you are with the group." It worked out, after a fashion. I have seen too many games where in-party conflicts completely halted everything, and frankly, I am tired of it, so I wanted to cut down on it as much as possible.
Thoronmir 08-08-05, 02:13 PM	The last time I used this device to start a campaign, I had the Wizard be the last PC captured. He was thrown into the cell with the others right as the campaign began (the other PCs had been there for several days). I decided that the Head Jailer had issued orders that any unusual items be brought to him and him alone (so that he could claim credit with his master). However, the Head Jailer was not on duty for several hours, so the guards had to hold the spellbook for him until then.
Norhg 08-08-05, 02:24 PM	Not necessarily. I started a campaign where I basically told the players, "OK. You guys need to come up with a party that works, and where the characters are actually friends. You will already have adventured for a while, so you know each other pretty well. Find reasons why you are with the group." It worked out, after a fashion. I have seen too many games where in-party conflicts completely halted everything, and frankly, I am tired of it, so I wanted to cut down on it as much as possible. I have done this as well! For varied result although, First time worked well(campaign was good), Second decently(the party was pretty lame), The third time was a tpk, the last guy falling to the party wizards contigency fireball upon death upon whoever killed me (go figure).
AntiDjinn 08-08-05, 04:28 PM	Once you have your startpoint and the game is under way the acid test for railroading at any point in the campaign is to ask yourself: "Do the characters' decisions matter?" If the answer is yes then you are not railroading. If the story events will happen whether or not the characters choose to participate, if they appear to have a choice of paths but they all lead to the same place, or if you up the bad guys along the way to force them to follow a single path through the game then you are railroading. Although many DMs here will disagree, if you continually bail out characters or let them slide when they do something stupid just because the storyline requires them to succeed then you are railroading as well. For example, if you planned a simple encounter that will provide them with clues that will lead them to the main adventure, but they make stupid errors and loose a fight that should have been a cakewalk, or miss obvious clues then what do you do? If you decide to let them win anyway, or have the clue they missed telegraphed then you are railroading because their poor decisions did not have consequences. I bet every DM has bail out the party occasionally, but if you do it all the time then their poor choices don't have consequences and you are railroading them into a storyline just as you would be if their good choices didn't affect the storyline.
Bartleby_GoC 08-08-05, 04:38 PM	Although many DMs here will disagree, if you continually bail out characters or let them slide when they do something stupid just because the storyline requires them to succeed then you are railroading as well. Actually, take heed of this advice. It's something I'm sometimes guilty of (and will take note to avoid int he future). Some of the best times are had when someone makes a bad choice and the party has a dire battle to recover from it. It's especially satisfying, for DM and player alike, if the party survives (more or less) to correct their error. Again, good advice, AntiDjinn. Bartleby
dasneakygit 08-08-05, 06:29 PM	As far as the spellbook goes have a guard start tearing pages out of it to help kick off a fire. It would put some urgentcy into the party as well as make sense as to why a basic guard cared about it at all. Just make sure that unless they take forever to escape that the guard only tore out the back pages etc etc