Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Choronis 09-26-04, 06:41 PM	Ok, heres the lay down on my campaign. The adventuring guild in the town had recruited the PCs to help investigate a (potential) undead army gathering up and marching towards them. On a scouting missing, the scouts of the guild reported that there was signs of a town, but weren't able to find out anymore info due to the undead that were approaching them. The PC's objective: stop the undead army and find out some more info on this town they dont know of too well. As the PCs are going down towards the town, they encounter a lich that is raising all the corpses the cadaver collectors are bringing. battle ensumes. lich, being almost dead, hauls out a hand held globe of shimmering blue light and recites the words "vanquish thee" and the PCs get banished to the city of brass. The clerics in the party try plane shifting, dispell law/chaos, banishment etc. but those spells fizzle (reason being is that the lich barred their extradimensional means of travel as well as similar spells by others). Lots of RP later, the PCs find out that there is an inactive portal northwest of the city on a small contingent of land. They also find out that the Grand Sultan has a globe of shimmering blue light similar to the lichs they encountered earlier. During the annual festival the town has, the grand sultans globe was stolen by none other than his own daughter. after a scrying attempt, they find shes going in the direction of the portal. At that point, i ended it last night. One of my PCs afterwards was saying how hes not enjoying himself becuz he finds that the campaign is too rigid and forceful. I thought that if they got stuck on a plane, by force, that theyd be willing to try everything they could in order to get back. an inscentive. Said PC says that he finds theres hardly any choice in the game. Am i being a jerk to my PC's or no?
Brent 09-26-04, 06:58 PM	Well from what you've said so far i'd say no. BUT PCs don't say that for no reason. Did you MAKE them go after the undead army? Did you make them do anything specific during character creation?
CrippleMrOnion 09-26-04, 07:09 PM	No, you're not at this point. PCs often whine or call "railroading!" when they're put in situations they're not comfortable with. Any "plot twist" can be called railroading by some standards, but only WILL be called that if it somehow challenges the PCs. That being said, the questions brent asked were legitemate, too. Also, if you frequently use "plot twists" such as this, then the PCs might begin to have warrant to complain. However, if this is a one-time occurance, they weren't forced to go after the undead army, they weren't forced to fight the lich, they weren't forced to leave the City of Brass, etc, etc, etc, then they're just being whiners because they're in a situation that is outside of their control. It happens both in game and in real life... no one has total control over their destiny. Just don't let it become a habit and don't give in to his whining, or you'll never hear the end of it.
Syth Of Jale 09-26-04, 07:20 PM	First off, running a linear campaign is not jerkish at all. It's merely a style of play. Do you want to run a linear campaign or a more open, MMORPG-ish, if you will, type-situation? Question your own desires, and the preferances of the players. I've only had two complaints about linearism, and corrected them both the next session. My general rule of thumb is that if you as a DM didn't think of it, of how to prevent it, the villians didn't either, although this does not apply in some cases. Building a complex "follow the orb" adventure as you are doing here is fine. It's not jerkish at all. Generally, the more rolls they can make, the happier they are, so you might have considered having the banishing have a save, or the casting of the "fizzled" spells a check (them v. Lich's roll). PC's get VERY annoyed when the spells they cast fizzle.
Star Warrior X 09-26-04, 08:07 PM	Whether or not you are being a jerk is completely up to your players. They think you are, so you are. What you are doing is railroading. It is railroading because everything the PCs try fails, jsut because it does. You gave the lich an item powerful enough to negate all of the PCs plane-shifting abilities, so that you could lead them (read: force them) to the plot you had crafted. this is the very definition of railroading, you have used your boundless capabilities to limit the PCs actions. Another reason it is railroading is that the PCs don't seem to have much to do. sure, they fought the lich, but then what? They watch the lich use his orb on them, they go to a fair, and watch another orb get stolen, then they watch where the thief went, etc. At some point it might be nice if they began influencing the action a little instead of being spectators.
Kalanth 09-26-04, 09:31 PM	I would not think of this as railroading, in fact, I look at it more as a very interesting and quality session. I, for one, will be likely to steal this particular idea and place it in my campaign somewhere. Players will complain, as the others have said, but if this one individual is saying that he is not having any fun becuase there is no choice, then talk to the entire group and try to plot some very choice heavy moments into your next session. Show that you want to make enough effort to keep it fun, but also let them know that your story is important to you as well.
danielinthewolvesden 09-26-04, 10:24 PM	, hauls out a hand held globe of shimmering blue light and recites the words "vanquish thee" and the PCs get banished to the city of brass. The clerics in the party try plane shifting, dispell law/chaos, banishment etc. but those spells fizzle (reason being is that the lich barred their extradimensional means of travel as well as similar spells by others). One of my PCs afterwards was saying how hes not enjoying himself becuz he finds that the campaign is too rigid and forceful. I thought that if they got stuck on a plane, by force, that theyd be willing to try everything they could in order to get back. an inscentive. Said PC says that he finds theres hardly any choice in the game. Am i being a jerk to my PC's or no? Yes. Right there with "no way to help but be shifted and no way to get back except with the plot hook I am giving you" that's where it shifted into a Railroad ride. Let them have some choices, eh?
The Shaman 09-26-04, 10:39 PM	While you've created a very interesting plot, I think you may have crossed the line-in-the-sand between player-free-will and GM-ex-machina, based on this: The clerics in the party try plane shifting, dispell law/chaos, banishment etc. but those spells fizzle (reason being is that the lich barred their extradimensional means of travel as well as similar spells by others). My personal feeling is that if the only way you can get the players to take their characters in a particular direction is by nerfing any means they have of taking a different path, you probably crossed that line. Here's one of the tests I use to see if I'm creating a situation for the players to which they can respond: if I can't achieve the results I want using spells as written from the PHB appropriate to the level of the BBEG, then I'm treading the line between laying a hook and trapping the players in a net. Could the lich have cast existing spells that would effectively nerf the player characters' magic and casters, or did it require "GM intervention" by ruling that the PCs' spells didn't work? I share the concern (but hopefully not the tone) of Star Warrior X regarding the sultan's daughter - no one wants their characters to be bystanders to the action, though it's certainly reasonable to have the players respond to events in the game, such as the theft of something from one NPC by another NPC - but I think that's not nearly as big an issue as giving the players no means out of the predicament except by the plot hook you set for them.
Bloodtide_the_Red 09-26-04, 11:10 PM	I do see a trap here..... The Pc's head off to do the undead army thing and zap, you put them on the other side of the universe. Now I'll bet your thinking cool...you'll have continuing story, the PC's escape from the city of brass THEN go do the undead army thing. Your simply trying to make the story longer. A problem D&D can have is the loss of drama. For example...the see undead army and go stop it. No drama there, just a bunch of battles. Nothing to realy even role-play...just combat. And you naturaly don't want it to be that easy. So you do the little side trek. I can speak from experience that players in general hate side treks. They want to do the task at hand, not run all over the universe doing other stuff. The 'lost in space(Or Delta quadrant, Peagus Galaxy, whatever)' is generaly not a good thing to do. Sure you have lots of fun watching them lost and trying to get home....but it's generaly not so fun for them... ---and the whole 'they can't get home because the Lich is a super uber archmage that can do anything' is railroading....with a big R. It's one thing to put limitations on what they can do....but to stop them from doing anything. And the whole 'only one portal' in the city is just as bad. It's kind of limits on what the characters can do will drive the players crazy. BT
Board_Rider 09-26-04, 11:19 PM	I would not say that you are being a jerk. However I think that instead of making, or at least limiting their powers, to get them into your idea is a bit contrived. However I have done it before because, hey, it is just easier that way. I hope you have a good plan though because that is what matters. It sounds like there is a lot going on and sometimes if too much is thrown the PC's way the Players can get overwhelmed.
Duvanok 09-26-04, 11:46 PM	Add another vote for Railroading. I agree with Star Warrior X (et al.). Players should tell the story with their actions and choices. It seems here that you (the DM) have created the story and are making sure it develops exactly as you want by taking away player choice. That's a big No-No. I don't think you are being a jerk (unless you are one of those DMs that does something the players are helpless to avoid just for your own personal amusement). However, IMO, having the lich teleport the pcs to a different plane and not letting them be able to get back by using their own power was where this campaign went wrong. Listen to your players, ALWAYS LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYERS, because they are the ones playing the game. It's your job to make the game enjoyable.
Choronis 09-27-04, 01:30 AM	Thanks all for your comments. The reason I ask is that this is only the second mini quest/campaign that I've ever run so that's why I come looking for opinions and such so that I can find out what I am doing wrong and all. More information on the Lich's Globe. 1) There is a limit to the powers entailed. Since this guy is using the orb and abusing it's power, it will run out VERY soon. 2) Using the orb to banish the PCs used a lot of the orbs energy (for the PCs can provide a lot of resistance to the effects having a VOP monk, 3 clerics and a paladin in the party). 3) The more time spent actually surveying the orb unlocks different powers. The last thing I want to do is railroad the PCs and some of you think I am doing so...I really don't want to. From the last campaign that said PC mentioned earlier ran (to my knowledge since I never played that campaign), there was so many broken aspects the PCs had in the game. The party rogue was able to do 20d6 damage from his crossbow, the sorc was able to wield 6 rapiers of puncturing and the cleric had more than 60 AC. I thought that I'd try and learn from that fatal error and try and add some guidelines to my campaign but, alas, I seem to be failing. Like I said, I'm trying desparately to make this game interesting and fun for all (the combat slashers, the RPers, etc.), I'm just wondering how can I improve my DMing style.
Encard 09-27-04, 01:53 AM	Hmm.. I think having the orb's power be used up after affecting the PCs was actually less of a hindrance to the BBEG than an annoyance to the PCs. It certainly didn't stop the BBEG from using it on them, but now the PCs can't get the nice shiny item. Guidelines are good... On the other hand, having ones that are too rigid or restrictive is a bad idea. As a side note, although what you mentioned with your player's campaign sounds like it'd be pretty overpowered for a low-level campaign, it doesn't all sound necessarily overpowered for a high-level game. The cleric's AC in particular isn't all *that* hard to achieve, if a character aims for high AC. For improving you DMing, well... Main suggestion would be to make sure that there's generally more than one solution to a given problem, preferably that's based on the PCs acting rather than watching and reacting, or being forced down a single path. *shrug* I've certainly heard of much worse things than what you described, though, and you certainly don't seem to have killed the game right now. Just change your plans a bit, maybe, and watch for railroading in the future, I'd suggest.
The Shaman 09-27-04, 01:59 AM	Like I said, I'm trying desparately to make this game interesting and fun for all (the combat slashers, the RPers, etc.), I'm just wondering how can I improve my DMing style. Asking for advice and a critique from other GMs is a great start. Like I said, I think the plot itself is good. It also sounds like you have made big strides from your previous effort. Perhaps you could allow the globe's power to lapse - if the PCs want to remain in the City of Brass, fine, if not, move on to your next adventure. The key is to make the adventure hook attractive to your players, so that they take it obligingly. One other bit of advice: whiney players are found at almost every table - don't let them get you down!
Searchin' 09-27-04, 02:00 AM	To err is human... To err when you're DM is to invite everyone to give you the bash. Key points: Players & DM must have fun at all times. Players & DM must have fun at all times. Players & DM must have fun at all times. Players & DM must have fun at all times. Players & DM must have fun at all times. It sounds like a great plot. It sounds like you just need to create situations where the PCs actions can have a real effect. - Like them divining the location of the other globe... I hate it as a player when I finally get that cool spell only to find that the DM will not provide a situation to use it... see above... :confused: (this post is so random)
Bolorhaig 09-27-04, 02:16 AM	many have hit upon the real problem here: PC perception. if your players FEEL railroaded, then whether or not you're actually railroading them is academic. you're the GM and need to address the fact that something is decreasing their enjoyment of your game. i like your story idea. getting high-lvl PCs to another plane for an extended adventure is a huge pain in the backside, precisely because of the spells that you had to nix arbitrarily. two suggestions (1 is mean and the other is the good one): 1 - try the alternative. write a scenario with LOTS of choice, little direction, little handholding, and sit back n watch for a while how badly the party flounders. then stop the game and ask for a discussion on choice and how dangerous it can be to game play. 2- let the players in on your plot a little. next time you want them stuck in another plane or something similar, tell them as it happens or as they try their first plane shift: "hey guys, this is where the story is and i need those spells to fail. this is a plot device for this scenario, not something to make you feel helpless." don't laugh. it works all the time in my game. good luck
Lxarth 09-27-04, 10:30 AM	2- let the players in on your plot a little. next time you want them stuck in another plane or something similar, tell them as it happens or as they try their first plane shift: "hey guys, this is where the story is and i need those spells to fail. this is a plot device for this scenario, not something to make you feel helpless." don't laugh. it works all the time in my game. I agree...I haven't had to do this yet but if a DM told me that this is just the adventure I have planned for right now, just work with me here...I would be like "um..sure, whatever". But atleast I would know that there is a plan somewhere, and the DM isn't just railroading and screwing me of all my spells. No save vs Planeshift is bad...then auto-fail on the PC's planeshift to get back home is bad too. Sometimes the Player suprise you, but the worst thing to do is say it doesn't happen.
philopharynx 09-27-04, 10:37 AM	Here's my take on it - instead of using the city of brass, I'd have made it a demiplane which is not co-terminous with normal planes. the spells would have failed, but by making knowledge planes and knowledge arcana rolls they might figure that out. It also gives them some hope to figure out how to get home. I wouldn't have had it be no save. I would have had it be a hard save, and leave the portal open (one way) so that the people could follow those that hadn't made the save.
Choronis 09-27-04, 01:11 PM	No save vs Planeshift is bad...then auto-fail on the PC's planeshift to get back home is bad too. Sometimes the Player suprise you, but the worst thing to do is say it doesn't happen. Maybe I should clarify a bit... Even though I haven't had the PCs do so yet (because I forgot to do it when the Lich banished them) is to have them make a Will save. Depending on the number they get on the Will save will find out how much they resisted the orbs effects. The higher the numbers the PCs roll for it, the better for them since that would've cost a lot of energy (again, depending on the save). SPOILERS FOR MY GROUP, DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER! Ah hem.... Here's my plan that I had for the rest of my campaign: The Grand Sultan asks the PC's to find his orb and return his daughters head as proof of her death. If they return it, said PCs get really nifty items that I personally crafted (and ones that benefit the PCs). When the PCs travel to the small island to the northwest, they see the Sultans daughter, Jasmine, trying to use the orb to be able to channel its power to the inactive portal. If the PCs approach her, they see that she is rather hostile and she challenges them to a fight (if they try and RP it, there is some connection to the Lich that the PCs find in her). If the PCs kill her, they find the orb has obtained enough energy to activate the portal throughout their battle (Jasmine placed the orb in the key slot before fighting the PCs). PCs have the choice of taking the orb and going through the portal. When they go through the portal, they end up in their town, just minutes before the Lichs Undead Army starts attacking the city.
Phrennzy 09-27-04, 02:41 PM	Here's my plan that I had for the rest of my campaign: The Grand Sultan asks the PC's to find his orb and return his daughters head as proof of her death. If they return it, said PCs get really nifty items that I personally crafted (and ones that benefit the PCs). Wow, he wants his own daughter whacked? What is this, the planar Mafia? When the PCs travel to the small island to the northwest, they see the Sultans daughter, Jasmine, trying to use the orb to be able to channel its power to the inactive portal. If the PCs approach her, they see that she is rather hostile and she challenges them to a fight (if they try and RP it, there is some connection to the Lich that the PCs find in her). If the PCs kill her, they find the orb has obtained enough energy to activate the portal throughout their battle (Jasmine placed the orb in the key slot before fighting the PCs). PCs have the choice of taking the orb and going through the portal. That's not even a choice. They will take the broad's head back to Poppy and get their reward. Surely the Sultan of the City of Brass - I'm guessing that he IS an efreet, right? - can send these poor mortals back to their own plane, right? When they go through the portal, they end up in their town, just minutes before the Lichs Undead Army starts attacking the city. Here's where I would have the DM fun - send the PCs back to the Prime plane but not where they thought they'd end up. Let them fly/teleport/whatever to get home. And I'd have them return just as the Lich is attacking - that's a good call. Just as the first wave is reaching the walls, the PCs appear on the scene. Then it's an all out fight. But keep in mind that large scale fights suck to run. I'd give the PCs the idea of tackling the elite undead units. Perhaps the local leader can explain that their clerics and warriors can handle the zombies, skeletons, ghouls, etc, but he KNOWS that if that group of spectres, or that trio of vampires, or the Stone Giant Wights get into the city, everyone dies. He pleads for the PCs to hit those targets. And then of course there is targeting the Lich. Smack him down and his army goes poof! No more control. Which of course could be a bad thing...
Phrennzy 09-27-04, 02:50 PM	Oh yeah, to answer the question of "Jerk or not", no, you aren't being a jerk, but you are railroading. The City of Brass is chock full of efreet who could plane shift the PCs home. The Lich should not be powerful enough to block their planeshifting abilities. You can absolutely give the PCs only one storyline to follow. But when you do, make sure that you allow them to follow it with whatever means they have at their disposal. It sounds as though they are getting into high levels, and that's when DMing is REALLY hard. You have to deal with powerful spells: Teleport/Planeshift - cross country travel is super easy now. Raise Dead/Ressurrect - death isn't that scary Restoration - neither is level drain I see the Lich's orb of B.S. as a way for you to prevent these powerful spells from working. Don't do it. If the Lich planeshifts the group, and they planeshift back, let them. They played long and hard to earn those Uber-spells. Don't take them away just because you can't think of a way to make the plot move along. If the PCs confront the lich, have him buffed and ready. Put them in the position of having to fight the lich or save the town - perhaps those vampires have gotten in and are killing the clerics, which means the zombies and ghouls can being rushing in (or slowly ambling in, in the case of the zombies) and eating the townsfolk. If the PCs are good, they will pull away and fight to save the townsfolk - which is when the Lich either plays his big cards or runs. If the PCs indicate that killing the Lich will stop the undead attack, remind them that the Lich's destruction only results in an uncontrolled undead army. Then let them choose.
CrippleMrOnion 09-27-04, 05:25 PM	Though I stick to my argument that you're not railroading (simply because I've been accused of railroading by tons of readers of posts who had NO idea what the actual situation was since my player posted it, not me), I think that Phrenzy brings up a lot of good points about the logic of their inability to planeshift back. To make it up to them I would suggest the following. First, make sure that they have some ties to the town getting attacked, because due to their previous encounter with the Lich, they may not want to stick around to fight him again. On that note, I'd have them appear in the middle of the attack, taking the attackers unaware (this will help them feel a little better about the situation). Finally, I would suggest that you have the Sultan tell them that once both have been used, neither can work any more. So the Lich, who may have used it 100000 times, won't suspect that their returning has rendered his "surprise weapon" obsolete. I'd also suggest that he attempt to use it twice; he might think he just screwed it up. This will really let the PCs feel better about the adventure that they might have been annoyed about and give them a leg up on whipping the Lich for doing what he did. Still, railroading, no; plot twist, yes. BUT, too many plot twists becomes railroading.
spasheridan 09-27-04, 05:44 PM	Carrot and Stick! Carrot and Stick! See, when you make a plot hook like this, you need to put a carrot and a stick in the hook. You did a great job of that with the sultans daughter. You only used a stick with the orb though. If I had wanted to run this little section of sillyness I would have done 2 things differant: 1) Battle with the lich. Battle would have been done a little differant, something to show the PC's that the lich was TOUGH and they needed a special item to smack the lich. The lich would have eventually been annoyed that the PCs were smashing his amry that he would have contemptiuosly banished those interlopers away with the orb of efreetness. 2) THose wily efreets, annoyed at being used by the evil lich, would have brought the PCs to the city of brass, not the plane of planar smack that the lich was sending them to. An efreet would have been there to greet the PCs and said somehting like "Hey, I hate that lich, and if you promise to destroy the orb he has I'll help you get the lich smacking item of doom. Otherwise it's off to the plane of planar smack for you..." Then the PC's would get to choose to go to the plane of planar smack and hopefully planeshift out of there before they get .. um.. smacked, or the PC's could go for the carrot and get the lich smacking item of doom. THe key is offering a bit of carrot with every stick... makes the PC's happy about stuff. I have to say though that in most cases when DMs present me with a hoop to jump through I go around the hoop. DM's always trap the hoop, so just dimension door, tunnel, teleport, fly, or whatever AROUND the hoop.... BUT if I knew I could get a carrot for jumping through the hoop I would glady hop right through.
Amaron Blackthorn 09-27-04, 05:52 PM	What level is the party?
Baba Yaga 09-27-04, 08:26 PM	I don't think you're being a jerk but too rigid with your linear campaign. The PCs will NEVER do what you want them to, and that includes following your linear campaign. Go with the flow. If they got to the lich too early with methods you didn't anticipate, so be it. Get over it and use your DM ideas the players didn't from this campaign elsewhere. Having said that. I can see why they feel trapped. It sounds as if you had a conclusion to the adventure with a confrontation with the Lich. Then, you shift them off to the City of Brass with a "sphere" or "orb"? What is the Orb? Why does it block all planar travel? Why does the Sultun and his daughter have one? Nobody in the City of Brass can shift them back? Seems a bit contrived. You should just bring them back and dump the City of Brass hook.
Polymorph 09-27-04, 11:30 PM	Polymorph's Guide To NOT Railroad Your PCs The Two Deamons 1) Your Players will never know all that is going on behind the courtain, so they will not understand why certain things happen and think them to be random. This takes away a lot of credibility of your world. Your Players will beliefe that you don't put much effort into your campaign, so they will do the same. 2) Your Players think that they can read you. They will try to name what NPCs are "important" and what plot hooks are just "sidequests". If you really are easy to read and your "mainquest" is easily identifyable, the effect on the credibility and playermotivation can be devastating. Knowing exactly what they have to do, to "trigger the next event" easily creates the feeling of being railroaded too. What you can do about them... 1) Your Players have to know about what's really going on in order to understand the motivations of your NPCs. It's important not to throw the information at the PCs in a too obvious manner. A BBEG trapping the PCs in a dangerous situation and then explaining his evil plans is a good example for a way too obvious approach, however, this is still better than leaving the Players without any information at all. Note that you don't have to expose more than the upper layers of an NPCs motivation. When the PCs find out more and more about him/her later, you can add more drama into your game. 2) Say this out aloud whenever preparing for the next session: "This is not my story. It belongs to my Players." By all means, the PCs should be the most important characters in your campaign. Every session, their actions determine the course of the rest of the campaign, so don't plan ahead too much in order to stay flexible. However, you should keep the vision you have for the campaign in your head and grant them choices accordingly in order to not let the campaign get out of hand. Even though their choices can not be unlimited, it is your duty to preserve that image. Players tend to find talking to random people more interesting than talking to obvious "story NPCs". A frequent DMing mistake is to only prepare character and background for NPCs that are somehow related to the story. Implementing a lot of NPCs, for the PCs to just chat with is the best way to hinder them from categorizing your NPCs in "important" and "random". Of course, these "random" NPCs should be worked out just as well as the others and can excelently be used to bring the Players in closer contact with the gameworld. The same rule applies for events. Don't let every event have a major immpact on the story. If a usual DM tells his players "You see a tiny bird fly across the sky", they will get incredibly suspicious, follow the bird arround and wonder if it is a polymorphed wizard or a druid in wildshape. You don't want them to react like that, so add a lot of events, that do not carry a storyhook. This will make them think, that every event might be a hidden quest, but they can decide which ones to investigate. Special Tips: Encouraging creative solutions helps a lot to give the Players the feeling of freedom. Even if there are no rules for a certain idea, you can always rule 0 on the fly to make something possible. So if the PCs come up with things you didn't think about, don't say "it doesn't work" right away. If they keep thinking beyond the numbers on their character sheets, they should be rewarded for it. (for example with bonus Xp) Let the PCs feel the consequences of their doings. No matter if these consequences are beneficial or not. Players will always be happy to see, that they can change the world arround them. For example the party Cleric keeps donating all his money to his church. Two years later, he returns from his journeys to help defend the city as war draws near and hears, that his donations have been used to fortify the city walls and equip the Watchtowers with Catapults. Especially because his actions resulted in a great benefit for his present situation, the Cleric will be full of joy. Granting the Players the freedom of choice and creating a world that feels alive and not centered on the PCs means a bit more preparation work for you, but i am sure that it will improve the gaming experience for both you, and your Players.
darczero 09-27-04, 11:40 PM	Generally, the more rolls they can make, the happier they are, so you might have considered having the banishing have a save, or the casting of the "fizzled" spells a check (them v. Lich's roll). PC's get VERY annoyed when the spells they cast fizzle. I agree; most players like to have a chance to succeed, even when that success is only on a roll of 20. A few levels down the road, they might be able to make that same roll on a 10 or 15, after all. In general, try not to leave only one option. Give your players other chances to succeed at what they want to do, unless doing so would ruin the plot you have worked out. Also, reward creativity; if the players come up with something that isn't basically just a quote from the rule books, then give them the benefit of the doubt.
Bloodtide_the_Red 09-27-04, 11:52 PM	.......................More information on the Lich's Globe. 1) There is a limit to the powers entailed. Since this guy is using the orb and abusing it's power, it will run out VERY soon. 2) Using the orb to banish the PCs used a lot of the orbs energy (for the PCs can provide a lot of resistance to the effects having a VOP monk, 3 clerics and a paladin in the party). 3) The more time spent actually surveying the orb unlocks different powers............................. It's generaly a bad idea to give NPC's this kind of rlue-breaking Artifact. You should try to stick to by-the-book items. BT
danielinthewolvesden 09-28-04, 02:42 AM	The Grand Sultan asks the PC's to find his orb and return his daughters head as proof of her death. If they return it, said PCs get really nifty items that I personally crafted . If you expect a bunch of gameboys to kill a female NPC on the behest of another NPC, you're very likely mistaken. Unless they are Assassins or something? :rolleyes:
Choronis 09-28-04, 03:25 AM	First of all, I would like to thank everyone here who contributed because it will definately make my next game much better (ugh....even my first one was better than this crap junky). I think I know why it sucked so much: I tried implementing too many of my ideas into one game. If you expect a bunch of gameboys to kill a female NPC on the behest of another NPC, you're very likely mistaken. Unless they are Assassins or something? :rolleyes: The Grand Sultan mentioned to the PCs that Jasmine had been getting on his nerves as well as the very questionable acts she's been performing and the Sultan thinks that she might be under the influence of the Lich. And for those that are curious, the party consists of the following: Level 10 Human VOP Monk, Level 9 Gnome Cleric of Ehlonna, Level 9 Human Cleric of Valsharoon, Level 8 Half-Elf Paladin of St. Cuthbert, Level 8 Elven Wilder and a Level 7 Human Bard/Cleric.
danielinthewolvesden 09-28-04, 02:07 PM	An Exalted and a Paladin killing some girl because her evil father sez so? Because she's "been getting on his nerves"??? Say it ain't so, joe! :mymy: IF the Exalted wants to keep his status, he'd better not- even if she is "under the influence of the Lich". Especially if she may be charmed or Dominated. Both he & the Pally should try and get her out of the Liches clutches then to repent & reform, not kill her.
Amaron Blackthorn 09-28-04, 02:11 PM	Rescue her and try not to do very much harm, if it can be avoided?
fistanthius 09-28-04, 02:27 PM	You could just have them roll up PCs and ask them what do they do. Wing the whole thing and don't build any story or anything. Just use random encounters the whole time. They'll appreciate your stories after this session. :D
Kainy 09-29-04, 01:59 AM	I read it somewhere in the DMG, I think... "Don't be afraid to make evil opponents, well, evil." Yes, this could be considered railroading... if there were no other way back. However, the clerics could put their heads together, pray like maniacs, and maybe be given passage back to the PMP. Have they tried asking their gods directly (commune... etc.) yet? Has the monk meditated on a way back? Or are they only trying simple mechanical ways back? Could the party ATTACK the sultan and MAKE him send them home (or try to), regardless of how bad an idea it may be? The players, I think, have options. Just having the knowledge of the daughter running away sure is an easy lead for something that will, more likely than not, get them home. However, that lead doesn't rule out all other possibilities. As an evil lich, with a group of holy warriors opposing me (vop monk, three clerics and a pally, I'd be shaking in my horribly decayed boots) I'd sure want to get them on another plane, with no spell means of return, if I at all could. Maybe the lich prepared for this? Killing the lich that sent them galavanting about the freaking planes will feel GOOD. The hard work they put into returning will feel like an accomplishment. So I don't think it's a bad thing, I just think that it's frustrating for the player, so he's calling it something that, really, it isn't. I mean, one of my characters is currently stuck in Xanth, and while I dislike it, since he's a ******* samurai, and not big into talking with creatures whose very existence depends on puns... I didn't HAVE to go there. My character's sense of honor dictated that he seek to undo the damage he had caused, and this is the road I've traveled, but MAYBE not the only one.
JabberWocky 09-29-04, 02:06 AM	If the Paladin and an Exalted character kill a girl who is not herself evil, but doing evil acts under the influence of some greater evil, and they do not try to redeem her or free her from the controlling evil (possibly by subduing her and then attempting to take down the Big Bad Evil Guy), BAM! instant loss of powers. Sorry, that's the way it is. Just because we live in a Choatic Greedy society doesn't mean we still shouldn't know how to think in a Lawful Good way.
deusxmachina 09-29-04, 04:07 AM	I see the Lich's orb of B.S. as a way for you to prevent these powerful spells from working. Don't do it. lol. That was my first thought about that part. "That lich's orb sure is a bunch of BS."
RainCloud 09-29-04, 05:31 AM	IMO, it seems like a nice turn towards actual roleplaying. And some munchkins dont like that. Also IMO, anything that slaps the PCs in the face and get a campaign back on track is great. Railroading or not. I had a situation worse than this once. I let the PCs do whatever they wanted. Pretty soon they COMPLETELY neglected the campaign altogether and it became a "Let's see what we can kill" campaign. I threw clue after clue of what to do, nothing mattered..."Let's see what we can kill!" So! I said %$^& this! A PC was leaving, a CE assassin. He was a member of a guild of assassins (which just so happened to be the operation of the BBEG) Eventually the party became such a pain to the assassin guild, the guild asked the PC Assassin to turn in his friends. He decided to do so as he was having plans to go out on his own (building his own little crime sindicate in another town). So he figured by handing over the PCs, they would tear the place out from the inside. So as his leaving act, he betrayed the party (with "good" intentions). Anyway, as anyone can imagine - a party in a GUILD! of assassins with the BBEG were going to die. So after a few cool hopeless fights where the BBEG tortured them, killed them, resurrected them, and killed them again - they were found in a heap of rotting corpses in the wild. Raised by the elven people of a lost kingdom (thanks to PC refusal to help), they began the road to the campaign... well, one PC in particular yelled railroading and still cites this. But once again IMO, eat me! :P
RainCloud 09-29-04, 05:34 AM	lol. That was my first thought about that part. "That lich's orb sure is a bunch of BS." Hrm...DM...lich...Feat Craft Wondrous Item... DM...Lich...Wondrous Item... Hrm...
Naeron 09-29-04, 10:14 AM	There were better ways that you could have run this that avoid the pitfalls of railroading. Although your campaign has probably passed the point where it could be backtracked to this I thought I should post this so that other people can, hopefully, avoid some of the pitfalls. The ability to send a group of people to another plane and prevent them from returning by any means, using the method you used, is beyond the abilities of mortal magic. However you can "legally" achieve pretty much the end result you want by using existing spells and working back from the result to get appropriate methods. The Result you wanted was the PC's stranded in the City of Brass with an incentive to go after the Sultans daughter. So the Orb that the lich used needs to either be an epic item or an artifact (because it is obviously manifesting some serious powers) and I'd go for the latter option. So lets say that the Orb manifests a twinned, slighly higher level version of the Plane Shift spell that affects up to 8 targets within short range and (due to its horribly high level creator) operates at caster level 30 with 2 Will Save's at a DC of 40. This is a "legal" epic item power (although expensive as its effectively a 12th+ level spell). Two DC40 saves makes it a pretty remote chance for any PC to not get plane shifted. (Althernatively you could have 9th level version of planeshift that removes the save, but this does allow the PC's the possibility of replicating it). The Orb then finishes them off with an Extended higher level Dimensional Lock/Anchor (that affects multiple targets and lasts 1 day/level) that lasts 60 days. As its caster level 30 is should overcome and party SR and greater dispelling can't breach it its +20 maxmimum cant overcome the spells DC41. The price of the Orb is lessened because it can only be used a certain number of times a month(say) and it may have limited charges (like a staff) and it may have a limit on the total number of people it can be dimensionally anchoring at one time - the limits are up to you. The result is that every party member really should end up in the City of Brass and be stranded there for 60 days which will effectively give you what you want. However they have a number of options to pursue to resolve this. They could just wait until the dimensional anchor runs out, or they could bargain for a Wish or Disjunction to get rid of the spell or they could try for access to another Orb (because a) any of the Orbs can cancel the effects of the other Orbs or b) its anchor effect is bypassed by any orbs plane shift/open portal effect). So doing a service for the Sultan, or any other very powerful inhabitant, would be a good idea as he could get the wishes/disjunctions together to break the dimensional anchors as would going after the daughter as recovering the Orb would allow them to plane shift themselves or return it to the Sultan who will then plane shift them using the orb. This approach pretty much gives you an absolute outcome that the party end up stranded in the City of Brass but gives them a flexible path with a number of options to get back. It also makes the Orbs powerful minor artifacts that replicate existing magical spells with more powerful effects.
danielinthewolvesden 09-29-04, 03:20 PM	IMO, it seems like a nice turn towards actual roleplaying. And some munchkins dont like that. Also IMO, anything that slaps the PCs in the face and get a campaign back on track is great. Railroading or not. . So after a few cool hopeless fights where the BBEG tortured them, killed them, resurrected them, and killed them again - they were found in a heap of rotting corpses in the wild. well, one PC in particular yelled railroading and still cites this. But once again IMO, eat me! :P Worst. DM. Ever. :nonono:
Kainy 09-29-04, 05:50 PM	The assassins couldn't have resurrected the PCs. You get to choose whether you're resurrected or not, and get quite a bit of relevant info about the cleric casting the resurrection spell on you (alignment, patron..), as well as the name and effects of the res spell that's affecting you... as far as I remember.
MysterYvil 09-29-04, 06:14 PM	...ALWAYS LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYERS, because they are the ones playing the game. It's your job to make the game enjoyable. (emphasis mine)Only when the players are taking their job (seeing the situation purely through their characters' eyes, not through the lens of "it's not fair" metagaming) is it a DM's "job" to make things enjoyable. Further, I disagree with those who class the original poster's storyline as railroading. The PC's have several options, they probably just haven't considered them all. For example, they could simply take up residence on the plane they were sent to, an avenue rife with good gaming opportunities. Finally, as far as "nerfing" the PC's pet powers, playing the game without some mystery (i.e. powers that don't cleave to the rules) can turn it into an bland exercise in which players know all the monsters, spells, powers, rules, etc. I've found that having a very occasional "outside the box" encounter intrigues the players, and restores some of the wonder to the game.
StrahdVonZarovich 09-29-04, 11:15 PM	Could someone explain to me, what in the nine hells of Baator is a VOP Monk ?
Frodo Lives 09-29-04, 11:43 PM	The next time a player yells "railroading!" sit down and explain to him/her/them what choices they did make and that if they did it differently then the outcome as well as the flow of the story could have changed. Sometimes players don't realize that the choices they did make effect the game, and don't realize that they could have done things differently. It's all a matter of perspective. Like a previous post said, the players don't know everything that is happening behind the curtain. While you certainly don't have to let them have a peek and ruin the surprise, you could let them know what choices they did make and let them know when they happened without revealing what could have happened if they choose differently. IE if you tried to revive and interigate one of the unconsious orcs instead of slaying them all you could have found out more information, If you went around and tried a back door then the fight would have been easier, If you tried to negotiate with the Sultan to send you home instead of wanting a monetary treasure, If you didn't attack the lich directly but instead tried to learn more about his plans first....... This could relieve some of the misconceptions about the lack of choices they did have, if indeed they had any, which is almost always the case.
Lordofthebean 09-30-04, 01:01 AM	Does Jasmine by any chance have a tiger, perhaps by the name of Raja? Sorry, I'm a cynical being at heart. It comes with the coffee. Your plots seems good, I'm always in favor of extraplanar adventures (the material plane gets boring both for the DM and the PCs). However, you have to take everything a player says with a grain of salt, especially when they have higher level characters. PCs enjoy their flashy abilities. That being said, a giving PCs little choices ("do you want to go right or left") that don't matter in the grand scheme of things can still lead to railroading. Be aware that when it comes to big encounters and choices, the PCs should have some options.
danielinthewolvesden 09-30-04, 04:16 AM	Could someone explain to me, what in the nine hells of Baator is a VOP Monk ? A Monk with the Vow Of Poverty Feat from BoeD. It is a very powerful and very limiting feat where basicly you can't have any significant material possessions (and no magic) and you get many powers instead. Generally, mostly monks take it. But you must be EXALTED, which means- somewhat more GOOD than a Paladin. Tough code to live by. Paladins can & often should kill Evil. Exalted must try and give them a chance to repent, be redeemed and convert. Of course, if the BBEG is trying to kill them, they can kill them back.
MortalPlague 09-30-04, 05:38 AM	2- let the players in on your plot a little. next time you want them stuck in another plane or something similar, tell them as it happens or as they try their first plane shift: "hey guys, this is where the story is and i need those spells to fail. this is a plot device for this scenario, not something to make you feel helpless." don't laugh. it works all the time in my game. good luck I strongly disagree here. As a DM, I try very hard to maintain the illusion of a real, living game world, and I try to make sure my players could do pretty much anything. They wouldn't, but if they wanted to, they could just wander away from the quest and do something entirely different. Were I a player and I had the DM tell me that the story required me to fail a certain ability or something, it would be utterly stifling for me. I'd play along, but I'd be pretty disappointed. I've had a number of players really surprise me with absolutely brilliant methods of getting around problems, and most of the time, I say go for it. If they have the ability, or have the sheer luck to pull something off, let them do it. Telling them they can't because the story says so seems like railroading to me...
tompulsar 09-30-04, 06:32 AM	Okay here goes. Let me just start with a small word of advice. I think the best way to get PCs to follow a plot hook (at least with my group) is to literally let them follow the plot hook. If that lich had opened a portal with his minor artifact globe thing and stepped through into a city (visible to the players) filled with shimmering red light and tall brass domes, just how much thought would they have have taken before running right after him. Leave the path clear and open. I've noticed that one thing players hate most is to be denied a victory. You don't really have to give it to them but it gets them where you want them to be. Okay now the real reason I posted. :devil: How to be a real jerk. If you just feel like being a total rat-bastard (and sometimes I do) punish them for following the hook you gave them. Have the nice big Lawful Evil sultan reward them for thier service to him with a nice big murder charge. Assassinating royalty in a serious crime after all. Watch them cringe as 10 or 12 palace guards move in for the arrest/kill MWUHAHAHAHAHAH! How dare they accuse you of railroading now they will suffer the ultimate punishment! COURT TV!!!!
White Dire Wolf 09-30-04, 07:44 AM	Worst. DM. Ever. :nonono: Well. Even the player who called foul would beg to differ. But it was my first ever camp and it was a quick easy fix to SAVING the campaign. And since ir was a campaign designed from 1st to go into epic levels, I was NOT going to build another one - and I'm the only DM. I made my choice, I stick by it. (did I mention that it was the party Assassin who made the crucial decision tho?) Anyway. You stick to your 2 second judgement, I'll hold by mine. ** Damn log in...