Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oberon_of_Avalon 07-30-03, 08:01 PM	Alright, at the end of the previous adventure, the resident lawful neutral with evil tendancies wizard made a wish to reach selfish goals. He wished to be bestowed with enough divine power to grant him divine rank 1. I told the player that I would make my ruling at the beginning of the next session because we were really pressed for time and the ride I came with was leaving. Now, here's what I plan to do, and I wanted to consult with you people on how to handle this. Here is the situation. 1) By my rulings, a mortal being receiving divine power is incapable of SURVIVING the process if he is granted anything over divine rank 0. 2) The wizard never bothered to think about the fact that deities and creatures with divine rank 1 are not of this plane (ie, they are outsiders; if they were not outsiders to begin with, they became outsiders so that their bodies could facilitate their newfound power) 3) The wizard's wish was worded like this, "I wish to be bestowed with enough divine power to attain divine rank 1." From where it stands, I plan to have the sudden infusion of divine power annihilate him so that only a wish, miracle, or deity of divine rank 2 or higher can restore him to life. But the question about it is, should I carry through with it? Should I tell the player the penalties of his hasty action, or should he only learn after he is engulfed in a column of divine fire?
Dash Branaghan 07-30-03, 08:10 PM	What is divine rank? No seriously, what meta-gaming crap is that? Divine rank is a meta-gaming term. If that is how his character worded his wish, it null and voids the wish automatically in my book. Give him nothing and let him try to figure out why.
Oberon_of_Avalon 07-30-03, 08:17 PM	Well, there wasn't really a way to relate it, so I told him that he could use the term "divine rank" to give me a clear idea on what he was talking about. I was at a loss as well. He could have said "divine power to equal ," but there aren't any divine rank 1 demigods in my campaign, as far as I know. And going any higher than divine rank 1 draws other deities' attention, becuase there ARE divine rank 3 and 4 demigods and they [I]hate competition.
Encard 07-30-03, 08:20 PM	I'd suggest against killing him like that... however, as was just said "divine rank 1" isn't an IC term. Or, let me change that slightly. It can be an IC term, but not a defined IC term. As such, "divine rank 1" can be anything you want. So, why not just rule that IC, "divine rank 1" is translated as "ordinary mortal"? Or perhaps as a level 1 ordinary mortal... then again, that might be too harsh, not sure. *shrug*
meabolex 07-30-03, 08:32 PM	Originally posted by Dash Branaghan Give him nothing and let him try to figure out why. [/B] Heh, that's generous. I wish to be bestowed with enough divine power to attain divine rank 1. This is why wish is a dangerous spell. The power would begin to be bestowed upon him. be·stow tr.v. be·stowed, be·stow·ing, be·stows 1. To present as a gift or an honor; confer: bestowed high praise on the winners. 2. To apply; use: “On Hester Prynne's story... I bestowed much thought” (Nathaniel Hawthorne). 3. To place or stow: “He bestowed [the money]in his pockets with feigned composure” (James Joyce). 4. To store or house. Thus, a huge amount of energy enters the body of the caster. A huge body of energy enters you when you're struck by lightning. A body of energy powerful enough "to attain divine rank 1" would be much more. I wouldn't flat out kill him. 100d6 negative energy against the caster with a fort. save 35 for half damage. "May you get what you wish for"
Oberon_of_Avalon 07-30-03, 08:33 PM	Originally posted by Encard I'd suggest against killing him like that... however, as was just said "divine rank 1" isn't an IC term. Or, let me change that slightly. It can be an IC term, but not a defined IC term. As such, "divine rank 1" can be anything you want. So, why not just rule that IC, "divine rank 1" is translated as "ordinary mortal"? Or perhaps as a level 1 ordinary mortal... then again, that might be too harsh, not sure. *shrug* To me DMs who twist a wish just to screw over their characters are bad DMs. This wish is an exception, since I had to allow OOC terms to determine an IC goal. But there are valid reasons as to why he should explode in a fiery ball of divine light, but the fact that it's a completely home-made campaign and that no one except for myself can possibly know everything about it, it just seemed a little unfair that his wish (which he's worked hard for) should obliterate him and I should just let it happen without giving him a warning or letting him rethink the wording.
Sid_Patterson 07-30-03, 08:38 PM	Depends on wether or not evil goes on unchecked in your world. I would think that there is someone up there that would eventually give one of these dumb powermongers their wish...even though they new the person would die from it. Run with it. Fair or no, sounds like the guy is trying to bite off quite a bit and has no respect for the acquiring of power...just the possessing of it.
meabolex 07-30-03, 08:41 PM	Originally posted by Oberon_of_Avalon To me DMs who twist a wish just to screw over their characters are bad DMs. Heh, if you play with fire, you're going to get burned. Wish is arguably the most powerful spell in the game. If you don't use it intelligently and logically, you are essentially turning all that power on yourself. I do not screw over players with wish -- they do a good enough job of that for me (:
Iry 07-30-03, 08:52 PM	Even with conveyed intentions, that term is terribly ambiguious and I would twist it in a positive and meddlesome way. He spent his 5,000 experiance and should be aptly rewarded. So what does he get? He now gains the ability to cast divine spells as a First Level Cleric (Divine Rank 1) with no loss of ECL. Any bonus spells granted by wisdom apply, and an existing diety similar to his goals and alignment has taken an interest in his endeavors and provides him with those spells and maybe a bit of attention. :devil: :angel: Or you could turn him into a pastry.
Heron_Marked_Blade 07-30-03, 08:53 PM	You could, if you wished, get into a deep theological discussion of what "divine" means. :angel: According to many theologians of the Age of Reason, Man has a spark of the divine within him -- it's what sets him apart from animals. First of all, is granting Divine Rank within the bounds of the Wish spell? If it is, why hasn't every Archmage Wished himself into godhood? I personally would not allow this result IMC. Make sure to read the description of the spell carefully. In regard to a Wish, I'd make my players handle it completely in-game. His character is making a wish, therefore his character must word it. He's not making a wish for his character, if you get the difference. I'd suggest you talk to him and ask him how his character worded the Wish. Keep the metagaming out of it. If he thinks it isn't fair, explain to him that metagaming with a spell of that nature isn't fair either. Part of the spell's limitation is that it must be worded according to the character's ability to define the specifics of his request: i.e. to be precise. As has been posted in reply to your question, "Divine Rank 1" is an amount of power that his character will have to specify without resorting to metagame knowledge. Then there are the generic responses to his Wish: - his character is destroyed by the influx of power - the character is turned into a crystal spire by the influx of power -- he gains DR 1, but he is completely immobile - he gains DR 1, but the deity whose followers the character has stolen (if that's how he gets DR) is not happy.... - he gains DR 1 and is removed from the campaign (as he now has business on other planes and can't adventure any more) If his becoming Divine makes his character extremely overpowered, remove it from play. "Thanks, I needed an NPC who could handle some other, campaign-relevant stuff while you roll up a new character..."
meabolex 07-30-03, 08:59 PM	Originally posted by Iry He spent his 5,000 experiance and should be aptly rewarded. So what does he get? What he asks for (: I'm just like this because 99.99% of the players I play with would never ask for anything silly like this. There are guidelines in the Manual of the Planes (to my knowledge) for achieving divine rank (although I think I've heard they're ambiguous). Regardless, the wish spell should not be abused. If it is, abuse will grant abuse (in this case) (:
DrakathTheRatling 07-30-03, 09:23 PM	Either make him a minor NPC god or let him cast as a first level cleric. But you choose his god, so make it good. Really, I think Wish should not exist because it causes way too much debate and confusion.
MinusInnocence 07-30-03, 10:35 PM	Your concern that the players know nothing about the way your world works is perfectly reasonable. However, isn't that sort of like the real world? Remember in Raiders of the Lost Ark when they opened the chest and their flesh boiled away and the spirits flew around and disintegrated all the Nazis? It's sort of like that. No one knows WTF is going to happen when you wish to become a god. It is undocumented specifically because A) Either people are utterly obliterated once the Wish is uttered or B) They get more than they bargained for and are shunted into some other plane of existence where they must deal with the trials and tribulations of a minor Power. Destroy his character. You have already given valid, in-game reasons to counter his blatant metagaming (I don't care if he couldn't adequately explain what he was talking about in-character: that sounds to me like a prime example of a Wish that SHOULDN'T be made). Now, if he had gone about it another way... "I wish for the secret of the Divine Spark and how I might attain it for myself to be revealed to me," I would be MUCH more forgiving. This is good roleplaying. "I wish for Divine Rank 1" is grounds for rolling up a new character.
Dash Branaghan 07-30-03, 10:47 PM	Oberon, I agree with you that DMs who intentionally pervert wishes in a malicious attempt to screw with their players should be stung up by the :cookie: and left in the sun for the day. That said, I still see no reason to destroy the character. Again, you allowed for the term Divine Rank 1, but as Encard pointed out...what is Divine Rank 1? Maybe grant him the Half-Celestial template and all that goes with it appropriate to his level. It will certainly give him more power and a taste of divinity. The next time he wishes for it, make him a full blown Celestial. You can rank it that way. Alternatively, you can grant him Divine Rank 1 but he is suddenly a lackey for a Rank 3 or 4 God and thus relegated to the NPC pile. Then have the NPC appear in a shower of gold and give the party their next assignment. Keep in mind that mortals can attain Divine Rank (if you allow for it, which I have to assume you must). Take a look at the Legends Trilogy in Dragonlance. Even the FR story of Bane, Bahl and Myrkul has them ascending from mortals to godheads. So I don't see the justification of blowing him into lots of tiny fleshy god parts. I don't think killing his character is the solution or even necessary.
Ack'noth Necrom 07-30-03, 11:00 PM	I might be able to help with this but where is Divine rank defined at? I was thinking Dieties and Demigods but i dont have that book, what i will do is give you an alternate route. the way i see divine rank 1 would be equal to the lowest of the imortals. Perhaps his Divine rank would only give him a certain ability such as limited imortality. Limited being that he is only immortal in the sense that he doesnt age or cannot die from old age. While this is definatly not a bad thing it has its own curse if the player has a friend/significant other somewhere that they truly care for, and even if he doesnt currently what happens in the future when he does meet someone and realizes "Hey i cant really die! So eventually im just going to watch my friends and family fade away into history over and over again." I see some character emotional trauma there, and thats always fun to deal with IMO :smirk: But then again you have to think, can a wish spell acctually grant this? I would think not but thats just my call.
Oberon_of_Avalon 07-31-03, 12:20 AM	I think what Dash has suggested is closer to what I'm aiming for. When I said I allowed him to use the term, "divine rank," I didn't mean that his character looks directly at the wish-granting being and says "I wish for divine rank 1." I merely used it as a tool to guage divine power; I assumed his character said something in a more IC-ish way... But I think he would find out rather quickly the difference between being half-celestial and actually being divine. The alternative (annihilating him) is much more unfair in my eyes, and Dash's suggestion would definitely give more incentive to A) be just a *little* bit more defining and B) for me to find a way to ICly define Divine Rank in my campaign.
BobtheMighty 07-31-03, 01:14 AM	I remember there's some rule or clause or variant in Deities and Demigods that basically states that there is a limited amount of Divine Power. For someone to gain/increase their Divine Power (which is termed as Divine Ranks) someone must give up one of their Divine Ranks. See where I'm going with this? Give him the Divine Rank. Then introduce him to the deity that forfeited the Divine Rank for him. It may be unrealistic that a mortal spell could rob a deity of his divine power. So, roleplay the god so that he admits that he gave up the Divine Rank. Why? To teach this petty mortal a lesson. Since this deity is clearly more powerful than the character in question, the diety gives him two options: Give up the divine rank, knowing that he, if only for a moment, possessed divinity, which is far more than any other mortal experiences in her lifetime. Or, the deity utterly destroys the character, regaining his own Divine Rank; whilst leaving the character utterly incapable of being returned from the dead. that might just be how I'd handled it. However, I've never DMed a campaign in which a PC had the opportunity to make a wish, and made it. So, I've never handled wish requests.
PhaedrusXY 07-31-03, 01:37 AM	I wouldn't have considered the term Divine Rank 1 "in character" in the first place, and would have asked him to reword the Wish, but that's already been commented on. Here's my suggestion for how to deal with this. Give it to him. Infuse him with the power of a rank 1 god... but have it be more like a possesion. Some powerful deity heard his wish, found it amusing, and saw the opportunity to use him as a pawn. So he gave up part of his own power (a small part) and infused it into the character, but the character no longer has Free Will in all circumstances. Have the granted divine powers be totally fickle, and not work all the time when the character wants them to, or maybe never work when he wants them to, or only work if doing so would further the goals of said deity. Also, have said deity possess him and use him as an avatar part of the time. Have him wake up and not remember days or weeks of his life, only to hear about some crazy escapades that his body was involved in. Or even worse, have him be aware of what he is doing, but be able to do nothing about it. It might be more interesting if this deity's goals have absolutely nothing in common with those of the character. :behold: I would make getting rid of the effects of this "Wish" particularly difficult, requiring the intervention of another deity or powerful artifact, or requiring the character's death to separate the possessing essence from his body (assuming a ressurection spell would only call back the character's soul, not the deific fragment).
KITKATmeeoow 07-31-03, 02:11 AM	Tell him that he feels a little warmth on the inside, but not sure why. Next time he goes up a level, tell him he has to go up in cleric for one level. He wished for a divine rank and cleric is a divine rank. Rank can also mean class in which case the wish could have read it as he wanted divine class 1. If you want to be nicer, give him a free domain and access to the spells from it and the special ability it grants. If he does not have a specific god than you can either pick it for him or let him pick it himself. On a side note, this is why it is so hard to make successful wishes if you ever try to go the selfish route. Your words will get you almost every time. Unless you are the most generous dm in the world, than he had to have some inclination that you would not make him a god just because he cast one wish spell. The main problem with this is if he did become a first level God, while the rest remained mortals, then he would have too much power to be with the rest of the group and would have to be retired. That is most likely something he would not want to see happen.
NestroEmichae 07-31-03, 02:36 AM	Someone earlier suggestion using him as a storage device. I agree. Some deity wants to protect it's divinity from a rival and has decided to hide divine ranks in mortals, divine ranks it can recall at any time, even if mortal. That guy was one of the lucky few to end up storing the power. Of course, he can never use it...
Volk 07-31-03, 03:13 AM	I agree, store the power in the player, hurt him a bit (but don't kill him) and make his 'divine power' more of a burden than a blessing. You could use this as a start for a new high level adventure. For instance, what does the god whose power was 'stolen' think about all this? Or maybe some cultists are suddenly very interested in making this PC part of their underground shrine (think pyramids or whatever). To compensate for the fact that this player -did- spend all that XP and 'wasted' a wish, you might want to give him something in return. Some ability he didn't have, but which is now available to him. Just stay within the bounds of what is reasonable for a wish and, for every penalty you give him, compensate with some boon.
Mooon 07-31-03, 03:57 AM	1. You can grant him the wish, but then the other demi-gods will follow him whereverer he goes.... because the lack of power from some god that the wish took power from. 2. You can grant him the wish, but he is trapped on a other plane, and out of the champain. (he becomes a new "pet" npc for the dm for a new campain) 3. He gets the wish, and dies of the tremendous pain/power thats flouts into his body. 4. The wish doesn't get trough, because some "other" demi-god/god prevents this wish. 5. The wish doesn't get trough, because his deity don't want to loose hime as a "prayer" "worshipper", or just don't want competition.
fenrisvulfe 07-31-03, 06:21 AM	You can also try this... When he recieves this divine power, he immediately becomes aware of something, something immense, something powerful, something burgeoning with energy and knowledge and power. Something he is not ready for. It begins to overwhelm him, and overtake him, he feels himself being consumed with this power and somewhere, on a level far beneath his consciousness he recoils from it, and seals it away, but along with his mind. In the process, he forgets everything. He loses his spells, his memory, his identity, everything. His alignment reverts to True Neutral, as he does not even know who he is. However, his identity has not been erased, but simply concealed. Over time, then, allow him to regain his power, and perhaps even obtain a little godhood, but first he must sacrifice everything he has. Or, if you want a quicker solution, just kill him.
Derren S. 07-31-03, 07:29 AM	This wish is clearly to powerfull for a 9th level spell. A wish can't do somthing which is even nearly near the desired effect. So the wish fizzles.
Arilou_skiff 07-31-03, 08:03 AM	I'd not give him a Divine Rank... I might blast him into oblivion or possibly do something other horribly nasty thing, however, I would UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES allow a wish to grant a Divine Rank. (Except possibly a Wish cast at the Altar of Divinty in the Plane of Ultimate Power or some other very special occassion) But wait, does it say the wish has to be fulfilled immediately....?
White Mage 07-31-03, 08:16 AM	1) give him the knowledge of how to become divine. Nice plot hook. 2) You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) In this case partial fulfillment seems the best option: give him divine power for only a couple of seconds. The vast knowledge and insight he gains for such a short time is just enough to either use a commune, greater scrying , vision or legend lore like effect or he can use his power to have a slain ally raised from the dead with his own power.
Chobemaster 07-31-03, 09:45 AM	I would just say no. all the solutions here are going to make the game less fun for everyone. Any reasonable player is going to accept that, and knows that he's overreaching to see what he can get away with.
Erus 07-31-03, 09:58 AM	Originally posted by Oberon_of_Avalon To me DMs who twist a wish just to screw over their characters are bad DMs. This wish is an exception, since I had to allow OOC terms to determine an IC goal. Agreed on the evil DM thing, Unless it is a granted wish from a nasty source but... The wish should fizzle, I dont' remember where, (maybe 1st Edition stuff) but it was stated that if you have to use OOC words in your wish, the wish is invalid. The character wouldn't know to wish for such things I wish for a Strength of 20! - Invalid I wish to be as Strong as a Black Bear! - valid I am unfamiliar with the Divine rules in the manual of the planes as I've not used them, but I would assume that this is not something you can get with a level 9 spell or less. Personally I would have trouble killing his character though, and my answer was to simply have the wish fizzle... right up until I read White Mage's idea 1) give him the knowledge of how to become divine. This could solve your problem, and not completely PO your player. Erus.
Findail 07-31-03, 10:05 AM	As has been mentioned, it's clearly beyond the power of the spell. There's a set of guidelines on what a Wish can accomplish. You can Wish for a Fireball effect, but not a Meteor Swarm. You can Wish for a +1 longsword, but not a Staff of the Magi. You can Wish for a +1 stat increase, but not "the strength of a Cloud Giant". You can't Wish for demigodhood. Furthermore, I think it's reasonable to assume that the character would know that. What level of Wizard is he, and what's his Intelligence? If so, then you could either rule that the Wizard doesn't go through with it, or you could rule that the Wizard wishes for knowledge of how to eventually attain demigod status. Apparently there's a way to do it (some deities were once mortals), and the PC can now begin a series of quests for whatever he needs.
Vyvyan Basterd 07-31-03, 10:24 AM	Originally posted by Oberon_of_Avalon 3) The wizard's wish was worded like this, "I wish to be bestowed with enough divine power to attain divine rank 1." If you think perverting his wish in a destructive way is too evil, then pervert it in an innocous way. The way he has worded the wish it can be interpreted that he now has the potential to attain a "divine rank" of 1. Explain that most mere mortals can only ever hope to attain a divine rank 0, but his wish has bumped his potential by one. He will still have to earn the divine ranks in whatever way you have designed for your campaign world. And if he tries to use further wishes to bump his potential higher, the demi-gods you described would take notice of this potential rival and take care of him while he is still mortal.
bitnine 07-31-03, 10:46 AM	I'd certainly bestow him with Divine Rank 1; it would be presented right to him. I'd have a minor deity appear before him, and he'd be granted the knowledge that he is presented with this awesome power, and all he needs to do is kill the being before him and take its power. That way, he'd be in a tight spot (depending on how you run the deity), but it isn't like killing him outright. The deity could even be lawful/good-aligned enough to simply demand that this misguided mortal repent his hubris and dedicate his actions towards good works (and might just keep him to that). Anyways, that's what I would most likely do.