Am I being mean? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I being mean? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bludijin
09-07-05, 12:49 AM I'm starting my first campaign in almost a year and have some ideas that I am quite excited about. I've shared a few of these ideas with other DM friends and they think I am being mean or hard or both on my players and it won't be fun. You see. I want the PC's to start off in an Orc prison with no arms, armor, equipment, para nada. They either have to start an open rebellion, or secretly sneak out. I want to have a Freak Earthquake or such open all the PC's cell doors, and equipment (of low quality) nearby in a guard room.

From there it is their choice. Escaping can mean convincing the tied up wyverns on the roof that the Orcs are bad masters and that they need to escape to stealing away over the channel between the Orc prison isle and the the Orcish mainland...

Now... will this be too difficult for Lv.1 PC's? Should I tone it down a notch and build up to the capture into the prison? Just asking...
weasel fierce
09-07-05, 12:55 AM Why would it be difficult? If the players are smart, they'll realize that violence wont work well in this situation :)
OctoberRaven
09-07-05, 01:00 AM Remember, as a DM, if you have to fudge a roll to avoid a TPK early game, nobody's going to blame you for it.

If they have roleplaying experience they should have a good excersize here. Stress stealth if possible with XP rewards.
Slyde Shadowdart
09-07-05, 01:02 AM Sounds like a cool way to start to me.

Just remember that a good plan should be rewarded. Don't go out of your way to make any one part of it too tough, and the overall adventure won't be. Good luck!
BloodBought
09-07-05, 01:04 AM I wouldn't say you're being mean. Though if you have a party of mostly new players it might be a little more difficult than if you have a party with experienced players. the biggest thing is just to make sure that it's actually possible for the PC's to be able to overcome any enemies without weapons if necessary.
SeidonVanDolf
09-07-05, 01:24 AM If you have experienced players then go for it. It sounds like it could be fun. For newbies this is sick and wrong but for players who know what they are doing this should be a good experience for them and it will give them good character backgrounds, too. I would tell them how they wound up in an orc prison before the adventure starts, though. But it sounds fun to me. :D
OleOneEye
09-07-05, 01:28 AM The best campaign I ever ran started with PCs as slaves with nothing but loin cloths. Well, the wizard had one page of a spell book with read magic stuffed in an inconspicuous area because in those days it was impossible to ever do anything without read magic.

Several years ago, Dragon had a series of articles describing your situation with PCs starting in an orc prison. There was an adventure in Dungeon that went along with it.

Many years ago there was also an adventure for 0 level characters that started with them prisoners on a ship. It wrecked in a storm and they had nothing to start with.

Starting as slaves / prisoners is one of my favorite ways to start a game. As long as you aren't railroading a group of unarmed, unarmored 1st level folks to directly fight a wyvern and 10 fully equiped orcs, but rather giving them viable ways to escape, it should present a memorable game. Enjoy the improvised chair leg weapons and trash can lid shields.
SilverSabre25
09-07-05, 02:26 AM I think it sounds quite enjoyable. In fact, you're causing me to give some thought to the beginnning of my game. I'm starting a new campaign in approximately two weeks, and though the world is designed (well, the currently important parts) I've been looking for ideas more interesting than "you all meet in a tavern and decide to adventure together" or "you've been hired to do this thing." to start them off.

Prisoners would be good, and this would probably lead to more roleplaying than a lot of my other ideas. Which my group is a fan of. Thanks!
VerinBlod
09-07-05, 04:28 AM Sounds a s a good idea as long as you don't make the encounters to strong. And reward good plans. As a player we were once thrown in a situation like this. And that was enormously fun to play. It really stimulates creative thinking and roleplay.

Good luck with it!
tackleberry
09-07-05, 05:35 AM Sounds like a very exciting and memorable way of throwing these characters together and having a blast while they do it.
You will have to be very careful that you dont look like you are fudging any rolls or going easy on the players as this will rob them of the danger and therefore the whole experience.
I speak from experience because I started a campaign in a very similiar way (slave ship, ended up ship wrecked on a dinosaur infested island at 2nd level with two scimitars and one suit of leather armour between them).
KJW
09-07-05, 08:19 AM I second the idea that you tell the party the concept before you begin the campaign, get some feedback and prepare them for the beginning. Most likely the party will be excited about the prospect, but if there is lots of resistance you might want to reconsider.
SamiPeikko
09-07-05, 08:55 AM Mechanicallyvise this is quite tricky. Some fighters rely on heavy armor, and therefore will have AC of 10 for this session. With lvl 1 most of the characters can be with single digit HP:s. A real orc with positive STR bonus can be quite deadly, so if the alarm is sounded on the PC:s, they have to run for it or surrender.
Maybe goblins or kobolds would be better suited for propable combat encounters in this scenario, as any group of orcs must be avoided. Choose weapons with crit multiplier 2. Also most likely not all of the characters know how to hide or move silently, so do not make it necessary for everyone to succeed.

If you manage to pull it of it will be a great adventure.
Thesen
09-07-05, 09:04 AM Sounds great. Those other DMs are crazy to say you're being mean! That's an excellent way to get a group of adventurers together without using the cheesy - but classic - "...ok, you're in a tavern and an elf walks in...."

I think a prison with no weapons is awesome, but instead of the earthquake thing, why not have them break loose on their own? I mean, maybe the orcs open the their cells on a particular day for a particular reason. Perhaps they are taken outside for excercise. Maybe one of them plays sick. What if another prisoner has a lock pick and offers to break the players out if they help him?

I suggest giving the PCs several ways to escape - without being too obvious - so they have a choice and you have a way to deal with it. You should know the weak spots of the security and make them availabkle to the players. Maybe a certain guard likes playing cards with them. Who knows?

Also, I suggest that the guards are poorly armed. Maybe clubs or whips as weapons and probably little or no armor.

Good luck and have fun!
DmMagnus
09-07-05, 09:21 AM This adventure sounds great! But remember that not all the characters have ranks in move silently!
Good luck!
KoboldSlayer
09-07-05, 09:32 AM If I were playing, I would enjoy this beginning. I would want some leeway to put in my character history: 1. How I got my PC class (apprenticed to a wizard, worked in the local city militia, whatever) 2. How I ended up captured by orcs. (Maybe that militia duty didn't go so well?)

As a DM, I would pay attention to a few things about equipment:
Since level 1 equipment is, pretty much "poor equipment", it's really only a few gold piece's worth, I would kindof hand-select some of the items the orcs have to help out the PCs. For example: If you have a wizard or other spellcaster that studies a book, then you need to make sure that his spellbook is still there. Maybe the orcs kept it to sell later or just hadn't quite got around to using the pages for toilet paper yet. Make sure the cleric of the group, if there is one, has access to a symbol of his deity somewhere along the escape. And give the fighter-types a halfway decent weapon. (That last bit is easy...they can pick up an orc falchion or whatever. Orcs usually have ill-kempt but very lethal weapons with which any fighter would be happy.) Just, basically, don't cripple one character by not giving them a book they need or a holy symbol (which is a component for most divine spells). I'd be more stingy with a spell component pouch, since there are plenty of spells that don't need material components and your spellcasters can just be creative in their use or find things like cobwebs or whatever else they need that's mundane lying around. :) They can make do without most materials, but "making do" without a holy symbol or any spells except the ones immediately in memory will really neuter some classes.
Phrennzy
09-07-05, 10:49 AM I would most definately have a "How and Why" they were captured ready. I'd want to know for sure. That could become the key component for the campaign, as the PCs hunt down whoever did this to them.

The biggest problem will be any wizard. You don't want to completely hamstring him by leaving him with no spells.

If the player didn't take Spell Mastery, you need to allow him some access to some spells.

Perhaps the guy in the cell next door is a wizard with Spell Mastery, and he scribbles notes and they talk until the PC wizard has been able to memorize the spells. Nothing crazy like Magic Missile or sleep - but maybe Mage Hand, Flare, Ray of Frost, Grease, Unseen Servant, Detect Magic, Read Magic - that kind of thing. Make the Wizard PC really think about his use of spells.

And of course, they should be able to find a spell book or scrolls on the premises.

If the group is chock full o' newbies, you can do it, just make the opposition lighter - make the prison a low security, with fewer, lazier guards.

Be sure that you do NOT have only one way out, and be willing to go with the flow. You might have 6 different ways for them to escape, but they will come up with a 7th. Be open to it.
triss_erventine
09-07-05, 11:31 AM One time one of my players who is also a dm in his own right we share the group sometimes he will be the player and i the dm and other times he will dm and i will play and on just one instance
we were all level one and started in an orcish prison we were actually captured i know that the party as a whole were in different places when we were captured
we were thrown in a dungeon chained together and would be forced to mine the collapsed tunnels of some old temple looking for something that the orcs masters desired. My character at the time was a half-orc rouge. I remeber how fun it was when after hushed conversation between the group how to escape. The look on the orcs face and on the dms was pricless when we turned against are gaurds with the picks that they had us using to mine the temple ruins for them. After a quick struggle as time was a factor we took the picks and broke the chains that bond us together. Then we took the weapons off the six gaurds we felled and passed them around as was needed by the party and thus planned our dareing escape from the orc infested temple and into the country side. Sounds like your doing a good job keep up the work but maybe as some advice let the characters pick out some starting goods some simple armor and weapons and after they fight thru a good portion of the prison with orchish weapons have them pick up there own equipment in a store room.
BEST OF LUCK sounds like a lot of fun
Triss Erventine
gleep
09-07-05, 11:33 AM I'd say that you were being just a little cruel by starting with one of the Classic Cliches (tm), but hardly mean. You want some mean? Have them find a catch of cursed weapons. Have their guards be ogres instead of orks. Trolls would work well, too. Have their real weapons hidden inside a mimic. Instead of jail bars, have them surrounded by ropers that can just barely reach them. Have their thumbs lopped off before they were tossed in their cells, giving them hefty penalties to all their rolls.

There's so many ways to be mean, here. The possabilities to torture your players with are too grand to mention! Show those players what mean really is! Give them terror! Horror! Don't stop until their tears smear their character sheets beyon comprehension!

So, I'm thinking of starting a openrpg campaign on vaev1. Anyone want to join in? :D

--gleep
Jagnis
09-07-05, 05:18 PM So, I'm thinking of starting a openrpg campaign on vaev1. Anyone want to join in? :D

Can't be worse than our DM, 14 PC deaths in one dungeon... damn those hellwasps!
Rabscuttle
09-07-05, 08:44 PM Whether or not you're being mean will depend on the options that they have for escape.

I've used the same scenario in order to give my players a break - after they tried to jump far too many orcs for their experience level. They ended up sneaking out a chimney with loinclothes and one shortsword between the six of them.

It's gratifying that there is still the occasional tear over all the weapons, magic & gold they lost.
Gallameed
09-07-05, 10:40 PM I love this idea and was going to start my first ever D&D FR's campaign like this, using "The Scar" 1st level adventure from Dungeon Magazine.

But I chickened out, because the players and I were only new to D&D 3rd ed at the time and I was going to have to convert it from a 2nd ed AD&D to 3rd ed.

So I went with the Sunless Citadel instead.

I've got The Scar adventure in front of me now and looking at it, I am glad I left it till now, theres no way I could have done it justice back then. However, now would be a very good time to run it!

I think having the PC's all start as slaves is excellent, it immediatly forces them into a "team" and pits them against the orcs! Also having experienced players will make it really fun to play. "The Great Escape!" ;)

Make sure you have a few orcs who are characters in their own right:

A large sadistic orc called "Redtooth" who loves pulling slaves along by the ears and has breath like fresh dung.

Another (weedy-orc) who walks with a limp and has a high-pitched voice that tells tales on people and always has his whip in hand.

An orc called "Nibz" who has a taste for man-flesh and always gets first dibs on any slaves who die through exhaustion and sometimes they dont even die they just "go missing". He sometimes licks your PC's and winks at them.

Maybe an orc who's not so much evil as really, really dumb, someone the PC's might actually like for an orc, someone the other orcs treat as badly or worse than the slaves?

You could give the players a hand out on their guards or somethin before starting play. So when you say:
"The familiar sound of iron-capped boots stomping down the corridor alerts the orcs playing dice outside your cell, they scramble to their feet, trying to look busy...

...Redtooth is coming to "checkup" on you..."

Keep us posted on how things go! :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bludijin 09-07-05, 12:49 AM	I'm starting my first campaign in almost a year and have some ideas that I am quite excited about. I've shared a few of these ideas with other DM friends and they think I am being mean or hard or both on my players and it won't be fun. You see. I want the PC's to start off in an Orc prison with no arms, armor, equipment, para nada. They either have to start an open rebellion, or secretly sneak out. I want to have a Freak Earthquake or such open all the PC's cell doors, and equipment (of low quality) nearby in a guard room. From there it is their choice. Escaping can mean convincing the tied up wyverns on the roof that the Orcs are bad masters and that they need to escape to stealing away over the channel between the Orc prison isle and the the Orcish mainland... Now... will this be too difficult for Lv.1 PC's? Should I tone it down a notch and build up to the capture into the prison? Just asking...
weasel fierce 09-07-05, 12:55 AM	Why would it be difficult? If the players are smart, they'll realize that violence wont work well in this situation :)
OctoberRaven 09-07-05, 01:00 AM	Remember, as a DM, if you have to fudge a roll to avoid a TPK early game, nobody's going to blame you for it. If they have roleplaying experience they should have a good excersize here. Stress stealth if possible with XP rewards.
Slyde Shadowdart 09-07-05, 01:02 AM	Sounds like a cool way to start to me. Just remember that a good plan should be rewarded. Don't go out of your way to make any one part of it too tough, and the overall adventure won't be. Good luck!
BloodBought 09-07-05, 01:04 AM	I wouldn't say you're being mean. Though if you have a party of mostly new players it might be a little more difficult than if you have a party with experienced players. the biggest thing is just to make sure that it's actually possible for the PC's to be able to overcome any enemies without weapons if necessary.
SeidonVanDolf 09-07-05, 01:24 AM	If you have experienced players then go for it. It sounds like it could be fun. For newbies this is sick and wrong but for players who know what they are doing this should be a good experience for them and it will give them good character backgrounds, too. I would tell them how they wound up in an orc prison before the adventure starts, though. But it sounds fun to me. :D
OleOneEye 09-07-05, 01:28 AM	The best campaign I ever ran started with PCs as slaves with nothing but loin cloths. Well, the wizard had one page of a spell book with read magic stuffed in an inconspicuous area because in those days it was impossible to ever do anything without read magic. Several years ago, Dragon had a series of articles describing your situation with PCs starting in an orc prison. There was an adventure in Dungeon that went along with it. Many years ago there was also an adventure for 0 level characters that started with them prisoners on a ship. It wrecked in a storm and they had nothing to start with. Starting as slaves / prisoners is one of my favorite ways to start a game. As long as you aren't railroading a group of unarmed, unarmored 1st level folks to directly fight a wyvern and 10 fully equiped orcs, but rather giving them viable ways to escape, it should present a memorable game. Enjoy the improvised chair leg weapons and trash can lid shields.
SilverSabre25 09-07-05, 02:26 AM	I think it sounds quite enjoyable. In fact, you're causing me to give some thought to the beginnning of my game. I'm starting a new campaign in approximately two weeks, and though the world is designed (well, the currently important parts) I've been looking for ideas more interesting than "you all meet in a tavern and decide to adventure together" or "you've been hired to do this thing." to start them off. Prisoners would be good, and this would probably lead to more roleplaying than a lot of my other ideas. Which my group is a fan of. Thanks!
VerinBlod 09-07-05, 04:28 AM	Sounds a s a good idea as long as you don't make the encounters to strong. And reward good plans. As a player we were once thrown in a situation like this. And that was enormously fun to play. It really stimulates creative thinking and roleplay. Good luck with it!
tackleberry 09-07-05, 05:35 AM	Sounds like a very exciting and memorable way of throwing these characters together and having a blast while they do it. You will have to be very careful that you dont look like you are fudging any rolls or going easy on the players as this will rob them of the danger and therefore the whole experience. I speak from experience because I started a campaign in a very similiar way (slave ship, ended up ship wrecked on a dinosaur infested island at 2nd level with two scimitars and one suit of leather armour between them).
KJW 09-07-05, 08:19 AM	I second the idea that you tell the party the concept before you begin the campaign, get some feedback and prepare them for the beginning. Most likely the party will be excited about the prospect, but if there is lots of resistance you might want to reconsider.
SamiPeikko 09-07-05, 08:55 AM	Mechanicallyvise this is quite tricky. Some fighters rely on heavy armor, and therefore will have AC of 10 for this session. With lvl 1 most of the characters can be with single digit HP:s. A real orc with positive STR bonus can be quite deadly, so if the alarm is sounded on the PC:s, they have to run for it or surrender. Maybe goblins or kobolds would be better suited for propable combat encounters in this scenario, as any group of orcs must be avoided. Choose weapons with crit multiplier 2. Also most likely not all of the characters know how to hide or move silently, so do not make it necessary for everyone to succeed. If you manage to pull it of it will be a great adventure.
Thesen 09-07-05, 09:04 AM	Sounds great. Those other DMs are crazy to say you're being mean! That's an excellent way to get a group of adventurers together without using the cheesy - but classic - "...ok, you're in a tavern and an elf walks in...." I think a prison with no weapons is awesome, but instead of the earthquake thing, why not have them break loose on their own? I mean, maybe the orcs open the their cells on a particular day for a particular reason. Perhaps they are taken outside for excercise. Maybe one of them plays sick. What if another prisoner has a lock pick and offers to break the players out if they help him? I suggest giving the PCs several ways to escape - without being too obvious - so they have a choice and you have a way to deal with it. You should know the weak spots of the security and make them availabkle to the players. Maybe a certain guard likes playing cards with them. Who knows? Also, I suggest that the guards are poorly armed. Maybe clubs or whips as weapons and probably little or no armor. Good luck and have fun!
DmMagnus 09-07-05, 09:21 AM	This adventure sounds great! But remember that not all the characters have ranks in move silently! Good luck!
KoboldSlayer 09-07-05, 09:32 AM	If I were playing, I would enjoy this beginning. I would want some leeway to put in my character history: 1. How I got my PC class (apprenticed to a wizard, worked in the local city militia, whatever) 2. How I ended up captured by orcs. (Maybe that militia duty didn't go so well?) As a DM, I would pay attention to a few things about equipment: Since level 1 equipment is, pretty much "poor equipment", it's really only a few gold piece's worth, I would kindof hand-select some of the items the orcs have to help out the PCs. For example: If you have a wizard or other spellcaster that studies a book, then you need to make sure that his spellbook is still there. Maybe the orcs kept it to sell later or just hadn't quite got around to using the pages for toilet paper yet. Make sure the cleric of the group, if there is one, has access to a symbol of his deity somewhere along the escape. And give the fighter-types a halfway decent weapon. (That last bit is easy...they can pick up an orc falchion or whatever. Orcs usually have ill-kempt but very lethal weapons with which any fighter would be happy.) Just, basically, don't cripple one character by not giving them a book they need or a holy symbol (which is a component for most divine spells). I'd be more stingy with a spell component pouch, since there are plenty of spells that don't need material components and your spellcasters can just be creative in their use or find things like cobwebs or whatever else they need that's mundane lying around. :) They can make do without most materials, but "making do" without a holy symbol or any spells except the ones immediately in memory will really neuter some classes.
Phrennzy 09-07-05, 10:49 AM	I would most definately have a "How and Why" they were captured ready. I'd want to know for sure. That could become the key component for the campaign, as the PCs hunt down whoever did this to them. The biggest problem will be any wizard. You don't want to completely hamstring him by leaving him with no spells. If the player didn't take Spell Mastery, you need to allow him some access to some spells. Perhaps the guy in the cell next door is a wizard with Spell Mastery, and he scribbles notes and they talk until the PC wizard has been able to memorize the spells. Nothing crazy like Magic Missile or sleep - but maybe Mage Hand, Flare, Ray of Frost, Grease, Unseen Servant, Detect Magic, Read Magic - that kind of thing. Make the Wizard PC really think about his use of spells. And of course, they should be able to find a spell book or scrolls on the premises. If the group is chock full o' newbies, you can do it, just make the opposition lighter - make the prison a low security, with fewer, lazier guards. Be sure that you do NOT have only one way out, and be willing to go with the flow. You might have 6 different ways for them to escape, but they will come up with a 7th. Be open to it.
triss_erventine 09-07-05, 11:31 AM	One time one of my players who is also a dm in his own right we share the group sometimes he will be the player and i the dm and other times he will dm and i will play and on just one instance we were all level one and started in an orcish prison we were actually captured i know that the party as a whole were in different places when we were captured we were thrown in a dungeon chained together and would be forced to mine the collapsed tunnels of some old temple looking for something that the orcs masters desired. My character at the time was a half-orc rouge. I remeber how fun it was when after hushed conversation between the group how to escape. The look on the orcs face and on the dms was pricless when we turned against are gaurds with the picks that they had us using to mine the temple ruins for them. After a quick struggle as time was a factor we took the picks and broke the chains that bond us together. Then we took the weapons off the six gaurds we felled and passed them around as was needed by the party and thus planned our dareing escape from the orc infested temple and into the country side. Sounds like your doing a good job keep up the work but maybe as some advice let the characters pick out some starting goods some simple armor and weapons and after they fight thru a good portion of the prison with orchish weapons have them pick up there own equipment in a store room. BEST OF LUCK sounds like a lot of fun Triss Erventine
gleep 09-07-05, 11:33 AM	I'd say that you were being just a little cruel by starting with one of the Classic Cliches (tm), but hardly mean. You want some mean? Have them find a catch of cursed weapons. Have their guards be ogres instead of orks. Trolls would work well, too. Have their real weapons hidden inside a mimic. Instead of jail bars, have them surrounded by ropers that can just barely reach them. Have their thumbs lopped off before they were tossed in their cells, giving them hefty penalties to all their rolls. There's so many ways to be mean, here. The possabilities to torture your players with are too grand to mention! Show those players what mean really is! Give them terror! Horror! Don't stop until their tears smear their character sheets beyon comprehension! So, I'm thinking of starting a openrpg campaign on vaev1. Anyone want to join in? :D --gleep
Jagnis 09-07-05, 05:18 PM	So, I'm thinking of starting a openrpg campaign on vaev1. Anyone want to join in? :D Can't be worse than our DM, 14 PC deaths in one dungeon... damn those hellwasps!
Rabscuttle 09-07-05, 08:44 PM	Whether or not you're being mean will depend on the options that they have for escape. I've used the same scenario in order to give my players a break - after they tried to jump far too many orcs for their experience level. They ended up sneaking out a chimney with loinclothes and one shortsword between the six of them. It's gratifying that there is still the occasional tear over all the weapons, magic & gold they lost.
Gallameed 09-07-05, 10:40 PM	I love this idea and was going to start my first ever D&D FR's campaign like this, using "The Scar" 1st level adventure from Dungeon Magazine. But I chickened out, because the players and I were only new to D&D 3rd ed at the time and I was going to have to convert it from a 2nd ed AD&D to 3rd ed. So I went with the Sunless Citadel instead. I've got The Scar adventure in front of me now and looking at it, I am glad I left it till now, theres no way I could have done it justice back then. However, now would be a very good time to run it! I think having the PC's all start as slaves is excellent, it immediatly forces them into a "team" and pits them against the orcs! Also having experienced players will make it really fun to play. "The Great Escape!" ;) Make sure you have a few orcs who are characters in their own right: A large sadistic orc called "Redtooth" who loves pulling slaves along by the ears and has breath like fresh dung. Another (weedy-orc) who walks with a limp and has a high-pitched voice that tells tales on people and always has his whip in hand. An orc called "Nibz" who has a taste for man-flesh and always gets first dibs on any slaves who die through exhaustion and sometimes they dont even die they just "go missing". He sometimes licks your PC's and winks at them. Maybe an orc who's not so much evil as really, really dumb, someone the PC's might actually like for an orc, someone the other orcs treat as badly or worse than the slaves? You could give the players a hand out on their guards or somethin before starting play. So when you say: "The familiar sound of iron-capped boots stomping down the corridor alerts the orcs playing dice outside your cell, they scramble to their feet, trying to look busy... ...Redtooth is coming to "checkup" on you..." Keep us posted on how things go! :)