Am I being reasonable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I being reasonable? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sornas
12-15-05, 07:12 PM Hello ^_^ I'm the DM for a DnD group at my high school, and as such, we tend to get some people who are...less than mature...

Recently, the party rogue, who is convinced that he can try to kill everything with homemade Moltov cocktails (Which I don't really let work, they don't explode, they just end up setting flammable things on fire), while down at the bottom of a well where an old researcher used to live (I borrowed this storyline from another thread on the boards, in case anyone recognizes it.), ended up deciding that he was going to torch the researcher's storage.

He suceeded, and while the Sorc (Who is also a jerk, but that's aside from the point) was trying to save some old globes and maps and such, the monk (a budding powergamer), ran and got some barrels of water, which he tied to the top of the well (Don't ask me, I guess he was expecting the bottoms to burn out and then douse the fire... o.O).

So, the Sorc was trapped underneath the barrel, and the rogue decided that he would try to cut it down, because he just plain doesn't like him... <.<;

I was getting annoyed at this point, so the rogue's dagger just happened to break off instead of cutting the rope. This was half-spite, half trying to avoid ANOTHER inter-group fight, becuase god knows they don't STOP. >.<

Anyway, so the rogue goes to the general store, hoping to find another dagger, finding that it is closed (This was the middle of the night) he decided to torch the general store...a guard patrol pounced on him before he could get far.

Anyway, my question is, I don't want to have my campaign ruined by this, so I told him I would let him off easy and have them make him wear an intelligent magical collar that would teleport all the wealth he earned to the owner of the store until he paid off his debt. That way he can keep adventuing and pay it off quickly (How much would a general store + it's contained goods cost anyway?). Oh, and it will shock him if he does something stupid, like try to steal money (usually from his teammates) in order to pay off his debt.

However, he is dead set against the idea, and is trying everything he can think of to get out of the situation. I told him that I should have just killed him off and that I had let him off easy, but he is still trying everything he can to get out of it.

Is my solution reasonable here? What should I do in this situation?

And before anyone says it. I can't kick him out, because this is a school group, and he works with some of the special services people at the school, if I was to kick him out, they would be on our group faster than you can say "Ah ****..." They would likely make us take him back, but with an advisor breathing down our necks, forcing me to take any sense of maturity out of my campaign.
WCH
12-15-05, 07:20 PM An intelligent item that can teleport other items... that would probably cost thousands of gp, far more than the cash value of the store. :confused:

Personally I would've had them throw him in jail and told the player to roll up a new character. Or he could attempt to fight them, in which case have him lose, badly. Unless he's lvl 8 or higher in which case he beats the guards, escapes, and Justicars get sent after him.
Gailbraithe
12-15-05, 07:28 PM Is my solution reasonable here? What should I do in this situation?
Reasonable? I suppose. A bit implausible (it strains credulity), but fair enough. You are right though, his character should have been summarily executed. Arson in a city built of dry wood - as I assume this one was - is a hanging offense. He could have easily destroyed half the city.

You should let him get out of it. Let him escape from jail (he finds a loose bar, he Takes 20 on the strength check, presto he's out the window). He goes running free. He feels he got away with it.

Next time he walks into that city, right after he passes through the city gate, a Sneak Attack crossbow bolt nails him square between the shoulders. The poison on the bolt saps his Dexterity to a reasonable level, and has a slow effect. A dozen 3rd level warriors - veteran City Guardsmen - rush out with saps, and beat him unconscious. More draw blades on his comrades, warning them "We don't want no trouble with you, we just want the fire-bug who tried to burn down the city. A crime has been done here, and justice must be served."

Beaten senseless, only conscious enough to have a dim awareness of his surroundings, he feels his arms manacled behind his back and a noose slipped over his neck as he is roughly loaded onto the back of a horse. Gazing up he sees some sort of joist overhead, and the long line of the hangman's noose pointed straight at him. The last thing he hears is "Damnable fire-bug, we ain't botherin' with no courts this time." and a SLAP! as they send the horse charging.

He gets a Fort save or he dies. Then each round, another Fort save til or he dies. Keep making him roll 'em til he's dead. Then he rolls up a new character, and the buzzards get the old one.
Ravenseye
12-15-05, 07:40 PM Is my solution reasonable here? What should I do in this situation?

Look forward to college and new more mature gamers?

All kidding aside, I think the key for you is to make sure you don't dig yourself into a hole, and don't let your gamers walk all over you. Whether or not you want to run a game with a bunch of evil firebug characters is unimportant. The important part is that you play it consistently and if a character keeps doing dumb things, they need to pay for it.

Look at it like this. What would you do if the rogue decided to jump off a 200 foot cliff. A running jump. With his eyes closed. Into lava.

You'd say "roll up a new character, and try and not make this next one extra crispy"

No amount of whining would keep you from saying "Look you jumped off a 200 foot cliff into liquid hot MAGMA. He's dead. Get over it. Roll up a new character." If you keep giving him outs, instead of repercussions, he's just gonna keep doing annoying things.

Heck, he might no matter what.

In this situation I think you're being reasonable, though I'd have been harsher. Let him know that the city/country/international authorities won't stand for his actions and that if he does anythign 'untoward' he'll pay for it. If he wants to do something to break the law, or do something stupid, then let him know...if they find out it's him they'll come after him. If he's running around setting fires in wooden cities, and so on...the city guard won't let him last long.

The main thing is set boundaries and keep them. You don't need to bend the rules. If he says "i'm setting fire to the shop" let him, and have the city guard round the corner and set the alarm. Have half the city burn to the ground over the next few hours, have him caught trying to escape the quickly spreading flames, crisped bodies of children that he has to climb over, suffocation hazards, fire exploding...Then after he escapes have the guards come after him...after that if he's still alive, have a reward put on his head and have it double every game week he's still alive. Have the CR of the people comign to get him rise with the reward. Have him realize that his actions have consequences.

If he complains...

"you just jumped 200 feet into lava. You're dead, dude. Roll up a new character."
WCH
12-15-05, 07:43 PM More accurate mechanic for hanging: Fort DC 15 or instant death from neck snapping. After that, Fort DC 15 or 1d3 Con damage per round until out of Con and therefore dead. You only die instantly from hanging if your neck breaks... otherwise it takes a while.
CryoSilver
12-15-05, 08:06 PM Why don't you try a Mark Of Justice, which is essentially a triggered Bestow Curse?
b5201
12-15-05, 08:17 PM Wait what can those people do to you if kick him out.
Sornas
12-15-05, 08:36 PM Wait what can those people do to you if kick him out.

Well, they can MAKE us take him back, under the condition that they will put an advisor there to monitor his behavior, but with someone like that around, I can't be mature about things, such as language, violence, etc.

Thanks for the replies everyone, I think if he doesnt agree with the collar idea IC, I will then just have him locked up for a while, after a bit, I may let him try to pick the lock with a fork or something, but then he will be wanted, and probably quickly killed...I think I can try to work my way through the stuff with the special services people, but we will see ^^;;
Gailbraithe
12-15-05, 09:04 PM More accurate mechanic for hanging: Fort DC 15 or instant death from neck snapping. After that, Fort DC 15 or 1d3 Con damage per round until out of Con and therefore dead. You only die instantly from hanging if your neck breaks... otherwise it takes a while.
:thumbsup:
Rico_Huerta
12-15-05, 09:22 PM have the town place a geas/quest on the rogue for something like money to replace the store, or something the village needs accomplished
Always-Late
12-15-05, 09:33 PM Have his face branded and then have him exiled from the city for forever.

Make it some sort of non-healable non-regeneratable brand that the city reserves just for this purpose. A giant "A" for arsonist, or "I" for idiot, or "TI" for total idiot. (Seriously, some wizard must have come up with some way for this to work.)

Well, maybe regeneratable, but who'd regenerate him?
jagraham
12-15-05, 10:06 PM I see a lot of posts where immature players wreak havoc on the town. In beginning games, there should be no open ended, "so what do you do now?" situations. They turn on the townsfolk and each other because nothing else is within range of their weapons and spells. Don't try to teach anybody a lesson, they will resist more. Get they party into the wilderness and on their way into a dungeon. Everything they meet will be fair game. You are the Boss...if they are hesitant to go, say that they spend a month doing nothing, deduct a months gold upkeep, and then ask them if they want to head for the dungeon (repeat if necessary).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sornas 12-15-05, 07:12 PM	Hello ^_^ I'm the DM for a DnD group at my high school, and as such, we tend to get some people who are...less than mature... Recently, the party rogue, who is convinced that he can try to kill everything with homemade Moltov cocktails (Which I don't really let work, they don't explode, they just end up setting flammable things on fire), while down at the bottom of a well where an old researcher used to live (I borrowed this storyline from another thread on the boards, in case anyone recognizes it.), ended up deciding that he was going to torch the researcher's storage. He suceeded, and while the Sorc (Who is also a jerk, but that's aside from the point) was trying to save some old globes and maps and such, the monk (a budding powergamer), ran and got some barrels of water, which he tied to the top of the well (Don't ask me, I guess he was expecting the bottoms to burn out and then douse the fire... o.O). So, the Sorc was trapped underneath the barrel, and the rogue decided that he would try to cut it down, because he just plain doesn't like him... <.<; I was getting annoyed at this point, so the rogue's dagger just happened to break off instead of cutting the rope. This was half-spite, half trying to avoid ANOTHER inter-group fight, becuase god knows they don't STOP. >.< Anyway, so the rogue goes to the general store, hoping to find another dagger, finding that it is closed (This was the middle of the night) he decided to torch the general store...a guard patrol pounced on him before he could get far. Anyway, my question is, I don't want to have my campaign ruined by this, so I told him I would let him off easy and have them make him wear an intelligent magical collar that would teleport all the wealth he earned to the owner of the store until he paid off his debt. That way he can keep adventuing and pay it off quickly (How much would a general store + it's contained goods cost anyway?). Oh, and it will shock him if he does something stupid, like try to steal money (usually from his teammates) in order to pay off his debt. However, he is dead set against the idea, and is trying everything he can think of to get out of the situation. I told him that I should have just killed him off and that I had let him off easy, but he is still trying everything he can to get out of it. Is my solution reasonable here? What should I do in this situation? And before anyone says it. I can't kick him out, because this is a school group, and he works with some of the special services people at the school, if I was to kick him out, they would be on our group faster than you can say "Ah ****..." They would likely make us take him back, but with an advisor breathing down our necks, forcing me to take any sense of maturity out of my campaign.
WCH 12-15-05, 07:20 PM	An intelligent item that can teleport other items... that would probably cost thousands of gp, far more than the cash value of the store. :confused: Personally I would've had them throw him in jail and told the player to roll up a new character. Or he could attempt to fight them, in which case have him lose, badly. Unless he's lvl 8 or higher in which case he beats the guards, escapes, and Justicars get sent after him.
Gailbraithe 12-15-05, 07:28 PM	Is my solution reasonable here? What should I do in this situation? Reasonable? I suppose. A bit implausible (it strains credulity), but fair enough. You are right though, his character should have been summarily executed. Arson in a city built of dry wood - as I assume this one was - is a hanging offense. He could have easily destroyed half the city. You should let him get out of it. Let him escape from jail (he finds a loose bar, he Takes 20 on the strength check, presto he's out the window). He goes running free. He feels he got away with it. Next time he walks into that city, right after he passes through the city gate, a Sneak Attack crossbow bolt nails him square between the shoulders. The poison on the bolt saps his Dexterity to a reasonable level, and has a slow effect. A dozen 3rd level warriors - veteran City Guardsmen - rush out with saps, and beat him unconscious. More draw blades on his comrades, warning them "We don't want no trouble with you, we just want the fire-bug who tried to burn down the city. A crime has been done here, and justice must be served." Beaten senseless, only conscious enough to have a dim awareness of his surroundings, he feels his arms manacled behind his back and a noose slipped over his neck as he is roughly loaded onto the back of a horse. Gazing up he sees some sort of joist overhead, and the long line of the hangman's noose pointed straight at him. The last thing he hears is "Damnable fire-bug, we ain't botherin' with no courts this time." and a SLAP! as they send the horse charging. He gets a Fort save or he dies. Then each round, another Fort save til or he dies. Keep making him roll 'em til he's dead. Then he rolls up a new character, and the buzzards get the old one.
Ravenseye 12-15-05, 07:40 PM	Is my solution reasonable here? What should I do in this situation? Look forward to college and new more mature gamers? All kidding aside, I think the key for you is to make sure you don't dig yourself into a hole, and don't let your gamers walk all over you. Whether or not you want to run a game with a bunch of evil firebug characters is unimportant. The important part is that you play it consistently and if a character keeps doing dumb things, they need to pay for it. Look at it like this. What would you do if the rogue decided to jump off a 200 foot cliff. A running jump. With his eyes closed. Into lava. You'd say "roll up a new character, and try and not make this next one extra crispy" No amount of whining would keep you from saying "Look you jumped off a 200 foot cliff into liquid hot MAGMA. He's dead. Get over it. Roll up a new character." If you keep giving him outs, instead of repercussions, he's just gonna keep doing annoying things. Heck, he might no matter what. In this situation I think you're being reasonable, though I'd have been harsher. Let him know that the city/country/international authorities won't stand for his actions and that if he does anythign 'untoward' he'll pay for it. If he wants to do something to break the law, or do something stupid, then let him know...if they find out it's him they'll come after him. If he's running around setting fires in wooden cities, and so on...the city guard won't let him last long. The main thing is set boundaries and keep them. You don't need to bend the rules. If he says "i'm setting fire to the shop" let him, and have the city guard round the corner and set the alarm. Have half the city burn to the ground over the next few hours, have him caught trying to escape the quickly spreading flames, crisped bodies of children that he has to climb over, suffocation hazards, fire exploding...Then after he escapes have the guards come after him...after that if he's still alive, have a reward put on his head and have it double every game week he's still alive. Have the CR of the people comign to get him rise with the reward. Have him realize that his actions have consequences. If he complains... "you just jumped 200 feet into lava. You're dead, dude. Roll up a new character."
WCH 12-15-05, 07:43 PM	More accurate mechanic for hanging: Fort DC 15 or instant death from neck snapping. After that, Fort DC 15 or 1d3 Con damage per round until out of Con and therefore dead. You only die instantly from hanging if your neck breaks... otherwise it takes a while.
CryoSilver 12-15-05, 08:06 PM	Why don't you try a Mark Of Justice, which is essentially a triggered Bestow Curse?
b5201 12-15-05, 08:17 PM	Wait what can those people do to you if kick him out.
Sornas 12-15-05, 08:36 PM	Wait what can those people do to you if kick him out. Well, they can MAKE us take him back, under the condition that they will put an advisor there to monitor his behavior, but with someone like that around, I can't be mature about things, such as language, violence, etc. Thanks for the replies everyone, I think if he doesnt agree with the collar idea IC, I will then just have him locked up for a while, after a bit, I may let him try to pick the lock with a fork or something, but then he will be wanted, and probably quickly killed...I think I can try to work my way through the stuff with the special services people, but we will see ^^;;
Gailbraithe 12-15-05, 09:04 PM	More accurate mechanic for hanging: Fort DC 15 or instant death from neck snapping. After that, Fort DC 15 or 1d3 Con damage per round until out of Con and therefore dead. You only die instantly from hanging if your neck breaks... otherwise it takes a while. :thumbsup:
Rico_Huerta 12-15-05, 09:22 PM	have the town place a geas/quest on the rogue for something like money to replace the store, or something the village needs accomplished
Always-Late 12-15-05, 09:33 PM	Have his face branded and then have him exiled from the city for forever. Make it some sort of non-healable non-regeneratable brand that the city reserves just for this purpose. A giant "A" for arsonist, or "I" for idiot, or "TI" for total idiot. (Seriously, some wizard must have come up with some way for this to work.) Well, maybe regeneratable, but who'd regenerate him?
jagraham 12-15-05, 10:06 PM	I see a lot of posts where immature players wreak havoc on the town. In beginning games, there should be no open ended, "so what do you do now?" situations. They turn on the townsfolk and each other because nothing else is within range of their weapons and spells. Don't try to teach anybody a lesson, they will resist more. Get they party into the wilderness and on their way into a dungeon. Everything they meet will be fair game. You are the Boss...if they are hesitant to go, say that they spend a month doing nothing, deduct a months gold upkeep, and then ask them if they want to head for the dungeon (repeat if necessary).