Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fend 05-06-06, 02:16 AM	Ok heres the problem. as a DM, i have made a persistant world for my players to adventure in. but when it comes to character Death my players choose to make new characters rather than raise their old ones. to combat this i took the Ressurect and Raise Dead penalty down and instilled a "Flat line at current Level of EXP" + exp gained at time of death. thingy to encourage them to do that rather than make new chars. but it isnt working. right now one of my players who isnt Reknown for good role play is running his item list by me and im begining to stress out... He wants to be a Ranger with a Bag of holding containing infinant numbers of arrows ... He also wants to Craft arrows and have all kinds of Archery Feats. anyway... heres the list hes given me of things he wants his character (Level 10 Elf Ranger) who has Statistics of "18 strength, 19 dex, 16 constitution, 12 intelegence, 13 wisdom, 10 charisma" ... Shortbow +3 Mighty x 4 Greater Bracers of Archery Bag of holding VI full of Arrows Heavy Warhorse spool of endless Rope Grapple hook Artisian tools , Masterworked He wants to be a horse archer, even tho no body in the party uses mounts. Im worried that this characters history of poor role play might turn this class into a horribly Cheesy Un-realistic Character... I dont seem to be this way on my other players, but i am especially stringent on this player for reasons im not sure of yet... the Party currently contains a Cleric of Boccob with a level in barbarian, a Barbarian with a level in Cleric to use wands And a level in Bear Warrior, A Raptoran Storm Wing with an Armor Class of 26 and an assasin. 1 character who is Dead is makeing a new character at current which im not sure of what it is yet. and at current The Player im Writeing this all about has a character which he Calls "Old man" (Very Uncreative character nameing). He wanted to play a short, Blind Old Staff Fighter. But in the end all he made was a Grey area Character - a 4 Foot Tall human who just Classifys as a medium Creature, With Sun Damaged Skin so he only Looks Old Even tho hes only 25. And a Croaky voice. That and he Has a Blind Fold of True Darkness even tho he Claims under it his eyes still function. His character has been... Controversial... and weve clashed many times about it being in the game. To top it Off his current Stats are - 22 Strength. 18 Dex. 16 constitution. 13 intelegence. 10 wisdom. 10 charisma. Can Anyone see why im Stressing out here? Or Do you think im being to harsh?
syntaxerror37 05-06-06, 03:07 AM	Ok heres the problem. as a DM, i have made a persistant world for my players to adventure in. but when it comes to character Death my players choose to make new characters rather than raise their old ones. This is entierly their option. Does it really matter if they come back from the dead or roll up a new character? is it afecting the ballance of your encounters any? Some people like to play a PC till they meet thier fate. Others will want them resurected. Neither is right or wrong, just be happy that all of your players share the same play style in that reguard.
TheChilliGod 05-06-06, 03:07 AM	*Yawn* If there's one thing I know, it's that power is always a relative concept. -See, the sad thing about archers is, as soon as the enemy gets up close (preferably with a nice reach, and a convenient corner to be... well, cornered), they become very much in danger. -These arrows only deal, what, 1d6+8 damage apiece? Damage Reduction/Bludgeoning or Slashing! Ping, ping, the archer is useless. -What about someone who can outclass him in range and damage? Warlocks, for example (If you have the Complete Arcane, of course). Mounted, using Eldritch Spear, and combined with some will-save effect, he'll have the guy out of the match for a while. -Protection Against Arrows. Ta-Daa! -ZOMG Swarms! (Of Diminuitive/Fine creatures, I mean) -Cover, and a high enough AC to make it worth it. Can't stress that one enough. -Kill the horse. A well-placed fireball or two usually does the trick. -Disarming ranged weapons is pretty easy to do. So is sundering them, though not as much. I think that's enough, but you can surely think of enough ways to balance out this archer if you think that it's getting out of control, and you're creative enough. Honestly, if you can't handle a properly-done ranger, who has taken the time to do a pretty-much well-balanced character, then... Well... I dunno. But it wouldn't be happy. Or, you could simply boot the player. You've got plenty enough of players as it is to continue having fun together, why should this guy continue to spoil all of your fun?
Fend 05-06-06, 03:14 AM	to Syntaxerror : Hard to make Recuring villains or on going Storys if everyone is willing to die and come back as the party's Restock shop :P once when the barbarian cleric got written i completely didnt forsee him giving his spiked chain to the existing cleric (who had a normal one) and now had a +2. also he gave him 2 of the 4 wands of cure light he stocked up on before joining without any Prior role play as to why. :P ofcourse in future ill never let that happen again. Thechilligod : mmm, point was aimed at him being unrealistic was all. but thank you for the tips. i may throw more swarms in they proove for good combats.
Strythium 05-06-06, 03:34 AM	The only serious problem I foresee is that by making new characters each and every time is that character wealth is getting thrown out of whack. It's time for you to assess the characters' wealth and if it is out of control, it's time to do something about it. Spells that can affect equipment and monsters that can do the same might be a reasonable solution. Your other option is simple diplomacy. Talk to your players before the session starts and explain to them what is happening. If the game is heading down a road that later on will lead to the destruction of the game, deal with it head on right now. I do not agree with telling people how to develop and play their characters. I have left games for similar actions by GMs. However, I wouldn't give them a cache of hand-picked magic items to optimize their characters without a good reason as to how they obtained them. As a DM, I require a backstory. I don't expect it to be a literary masterpiece, but I want some sort of explanation and something for me as the DM to dig into to further immerse the character into the game. Ask the players why they don't want to resurrect their existing characters? Are they just greedy, unhappy with their characters or do they not feel a real connection to the game world? I hope my suggestions help. Good luck.
gkp79 05-06-06, 03:41 AM	The solution is dont let new characters come in with any magic items - or at most like a +1 weapon and armor for higher levels. Make them earn their items or sell the old characters recovered loot (if it was recoverable after their death) for 1/2 price and buy new stuff. At least this is how I would handle it. Starting a new characters shouldnt be a free ride to new level-appropriate magic loot selections.
Fend 05-06-06, 03:48 AM	I agree. but my players would hate me. I agree too, they should buy their magical gear in town, not pre-bake. what of Minor wonderous items, and Stat Boosting Items such as "Hat of wisdom" and "Boots of Strength" and "Belt of Intelegence"... Should i remove Them from Getting these ludicrous items all together you think?
Lokathor 05-06-06, 03:56 AM	Bag of holding with infinate arrows? there's a quiver that does that... on the wizards site. Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver. Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes. Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb. As for the stats.. just make him use Point-Buy? TheChilliGod: Protection from Arrows sucks a whole lot. DR 10/Magic is poop at level 10 (converting all X/+Y DR into X/Magic was a slightly bad move in my opinion). Wind Wall is what you need.
hmmmm 05-06-06, 04:05 AM	Why don't you make them start at level 1 if they want to roll up a new character, it could work as I don't think any level 10 would want to be at level 1 again.
Vaelan 05-06-06, 07:17 AM	Why don't you make them start at level 1 if they want to roll up a new character, it could work as I don't think any level 10 would want to be at level 1 again. Probaby because that is the single worst idea anybody has ever proposed. He wants the option to be there, he just wants people to take it a bit less often. I would suggest rewarding characters that have been around longer with various non-mechanical benefits.
Fend 05-06-06, 07:59 AM	Non mechanical?
hmmmm 05-06-06, 08:45 AM	Probaby because that is the single worst idea anybody has ever proposed. He wants the option to be there, he just wants people to take it a bit less often. I would suggest rewarding characters that have been around longer with various non-mechanical benefits. Hmmm I have heard worse.
celtredleg 05-06-06, 10:15 AM	One thing that slows this down is to make them come in one level below the lowest current party member. Also give them the option, the party keeps the old guys stuff, he gets no items. Or the party gives up the old guys stuff, he gets to come in with some items. Right now, the p[arty is running up thier gear list by bringing in new guys all the time.
Pegasos989 05-06-06, 10:58 AM	Just enforce the guideline in DMG. p.42, making a new character "Under most circumstances, a new character should begin play at the beginning of the level lower than the player's previous PC. For example, if a player wants his 9th level paladin to ride off into the sunset, his new character starts with 28,000 exp, the beginning of eight level." This, especially with your houserule, makes character resurrecting much better option. And don't care if the player whines about his character becoming weaker; that is the very idea of why you are not meant to die. :D
Rab-Ka-La 05-06-06, 04:04 PM	If the DM is willing to be a doormat, the players will gladly walk on him. I have used a house-rule since first edition about bringing in new characters. Players that suffer a character death or want to scrap a character can bring in a new one 2 levels below the party average. Dying is supposed to be a bad thing! Do not let them bring in such powerful characters. Starting equipment should also be curtailed in some manner. Set guidelines such as no one item of more 1/4 of starting gold value can be bought without DM permission. I tell my players that to keep out particularly irritating items. Also, house-rule that starting items are useless to other characters in immature groups. Many years ago I had a group try this, one guy showed up with ten prerolled characters and repeatedly killed his character after giving or willing his items to the others. Have the party meet a friendly druid who expounds the wonders of reincarnate and offers to reincarnate their dead for services rendered. It has a minimal cost comparatively and can add many interesting twists that will make the old boring characters seem new and fresh ( especially with creative DM's options ) . Perhaps, you should also set some other guidelines about character creation. Stat generation must be witnessed by the DM, use a point buy system, or just give everyone the same set of scores to assign. This can stop the supposed immaculate rolling and ever escalating fudging that some players feel the need to try in order to make the perfect munchkin. It will start to put the power gamers on an even field with the others. And of course, insist upon a well thought out background story. The players will not hate you, they will learn to respect you!
Vaelan 05-06-06, 11:06 PM	Non mechanical? Indeed. The most common non-mechanical benefit is simple reputation. It won't make you hit harder, but it has a number of benefits. Hmmm I have heard worse. I don't believe you.
Zendu 05-06-06, 11:46 PM	Ok heres the problem. as a DM, i have made a persistant world for my players to adventure in. but when it comes to character Death my players choose to make new characters rather than raise their old ones. to combat this i took the Ressurect and Raise Dead penalty down and instilled a "Flat line at current Level of EXP" + exp gained at time of death. thingy to encourage them to do that rather than make new chars. but it isnt working. right now one of my players who isnt Reknown for good role play is running his item list by me and im begining to stress out... He wants to be a Ranger with a Bag of holding containing infinant numbers of arrows ... He also wants to Craft arrows and have all kinds of Archery Feats. anyway... heres the list hes given me of things he wants his character (Level 10 Elf Ranger) who has Statistics of "18 strength, 19 dex, 16 constitution, 12 intelegence, 13 wisdom, 10 charisma" ... Shortbow +3 Mighty x 4 Greater Bracers of Archery Bag of holding VI full of Arrows Heavy Warhorse spool of endless Rope Grapple hook Artisian tools , Masterworked He wants to be a horse archer, even tho no body in the party uses mounts. Im worried that this characters history of poor role play might turn this class into a horribly Cheesy Un-realistic Character... I dont seem to be this way on my other players, but i am especially stringent on this player for reasons im not sure of yet... the Party currently contains a Cleric of Boccob with a level in barbarian, a Barbarian with a level in Cleric to use wands And a level in Bear Warrior, A Raptoran Storm Wing with an Armor Class of 26 and an assasin. 1 character who is Dead is makeing a new character at current which im not sure of what it is yet. and at current The Player im Writeing this all about has a character which he Calls "Old man" (Very Uncreative character nameing). He wanted to play a short, Blind Old Staff Fighter. But in the end all he made was a Grey area Character - a 4 Foot Tall human who just Classifys as a medium Creature, With Sun Damaged Skin so he only Looks Old Even tho hes only 25. And a Croaky voice. That and he Has a Blind Fold of True Darkness even tho he Claims under it his eyes still function. His character has been... Controversial... and weve clashed many times about it being in the game. To top it Off his current Stats are - 22 Strength. 18 Dex. 16 constitution. 13 intelegence. 10 wisdom. 10 charisma. Can Anyone see why im Stressing out here? Or Do you think im being to harsh? I dont want to be harsh on you, but your complaining about a good thing. First off, you dont like the fact that they can re-roll, but havent imposed even a -1 level rule to discourage it. Compaired to the last character this one at least makes some degree of sense, on top of being incredibly mediocre. Hes a coreclassed ranger using a bow...whooptie crap, he could do more damage with a greatsword. Why are you freaking out, your other characters make less sense than this one, a cleric of knowledge with the only class that doesnt have literacy, and another character with a level of cleric on his barbarian (instead of the logical ranger one). Also 26 ac at level 10 is no great shakes, a fire giant can hit him on a 6 or better (70% success) a character with 0 armor and a cloak of displacement can almost do that well. So compaired to other characters in the party, this one is normal, if not a bit cliche. Also, what are you even being harsh about?
DarthMarasmus 05-07-06, 12:24 AM	TheChilliGod: Protection from Arrows sucks a whole lot. DR 10/Magic is poop at level 10 (converting all X/+Y DR into X/Magic was a slightly bad move in my opinion). Wind Wall is what you need. Which is why I still use the 3.0 DR rules. For a +1 sword to damage a great wyrm just as badly as a +5 is ludicrous, it almost defeats the purpose of a +5 weapon!
Fend 05-07-06, 03:00 AM	I dont want to be harsh on you, but your complaining about a good thing. First off, you dont like the fact that they can re-roll, but havent imposed even a -1 level rule to discourage it. Compaired to the last character this one at least makes some degree of sense, on top of being incredibly mediocre. Hes a coreclassed ranger using a bow...whooptie crap, he could do more damage with a greatsword. Why are you freaking out, your other characters make less sense than this one, a cleric of knowledge with the only class that doesnt have literacy, and another character with a level of cleric on his barbarian (instead of the logical ranger one). Also 26 ac at level 10 is no great shakes, a fire giant can hit him on a 6 or better (70% success) a character with 0 armor and a cloak of displacement can almost do that well. So compaired to other characters in the party, this one is normal, if not a bit cliche. Also, what are you even being harsh about? Your Right. he is very Cliche. but i have done some work with the player over night to enrich his character. his name is now "Erlwin" the Aussy Elven Ranger. He uses a Mighty composite longbow +4 with a quiver of infinant +1 Arrows and a Mighty Dagger Whip +4. His Chain shirt is glammered to appear like that of ... ehem... Steve Erwin's Uniform and he has an Acubra Hat.... Yes im Very sure many of you out there have just fallen of your chair. But in this case im sure hell have more fun playing it than the cliche' Ranger with a bow. Now he has 2 Cliche's. :P Also The Barbarian with the level in Cleric Actually worships Kord, the god of Strength. (i use many pantheons). hes more so a shaman than anything. And the Cleric Of Boccob used to be a pure cleric till he had an incredible Survival trial on the elemental plane of fire which nearly killed him 3 times (without involving any monsters). he thought it was only fitting he take a level in barbarian to show the adrenalin rush and his characters Will to survive. tho he cannot use rage and cast spells, hes a strong combatant with a spiked chain and trip anyway. DarthMarasmus: Which is why I still use the 3.0 DR rules. For a +1 sword to damage a great wyrm just as badly as a +5 is ludicrous, it almost defeats the purpose of a +5 weapon! I COMPLETELY agree with this! Completely , Totally and Utterly. It completely Nullifies the Strenghts of Certain deamons, like Bezerkiras and Pit fiends. Hell By Removing The 3.0 DR System From DnD it makes it Crummy. If This is the Case i Say that +1 Enchants should be FAR more Expencive to compensate for the fact it just happens to be "The bane of everything"... Except silver and Cold iron etc.
Merloth 05-07-06, 09:30 AM	I really don't see the problem here. Are you really complaining about a player who wants to roll up a new character rather than resurrecting the old one? Unless your intended storyline HAS to include the now dead character, I really don't see the problem at all. You can always tweak your intended plot by a few changes. And if roleplaying is a problem with this guy, there are several ways to fix it. You could, for instance, include stuff from his background in your campaign and make him take some really hard choices...
Fend 05-07-06, 11:09 AM	nah that wasnt the problem at all. My problem was That he was planning a character for later (not written in yet) And he'd fallen into a rut grey area thinking. for instance - old man - his current character: First up the Name "old man' ... Open forum. He wanted to play a short old looking crazy guy with a blind fold. to pull this off he made a 4 foot tall human so he wouldnt count as a small creature, and said he was just horribly sun Damaged. and to make sure he had no penaltys for being blind he has a Blindfold of True Darkness. the problem here is that during gameplay he actually see's better than the other members of the group and can see invisible creatures. yeah i know, self inflicted... but then theres his stat line. 22 strength. enough said. His new character, now that ive worked with him should be fine... which leads me to my next question. In the Arms and equiptment Guide - the Dagger whip Says It is not Hampered by Armor or Natural Armor. does this mean that a Dagger whip is Essentially a 15 foot Ranged Touch Attack? and, can anyone else see this as being a Tad unrealistic against a man Clad in Adamantine Fullplate? or Magical armor?
KirkBb 05-07-06, 11:25 AM	The whip dager is not like a ranged touch attack that line is in there because the normal whip cant work on opponents with a +1 armor bonus or those with a +3 natural armor bonus
hisnamehere 05-07-06, 11:56 AM	Especially with your last comment on said character's 22 Strength, I am beginning so suspect that part of the problem here is that you are a bit unaccustomed to a mid- to high-level game. A Str of 22 is entirely possible at level 10 (18, +2 for race [half-orc], two +1 inherent bonuses for levels 4 and 8). And that's not considering magical enhancement. Speaking of magical enhancement. I agree completely with the house-rule of not allowing new characters to have high-powered magical items. Definately enforce a gp cap for magic items. It just makes sense - the character wasn't walking around for 8 levels with no magic items and then once reaching 9th level and the correct character wealth just happen upon that super-mega-awesome sword/bow/staff/whatever that eats up all his/her wealth. That might make for an interesting character design (say, a samurai whose only wealth is his family's ancestral and highly powerful katana) but shouldn't be the norm. Also, never (or rarely) let a newly rolled character have a unique or personally crafted item (or spell or whatever). The new character should not outshine the existing (or recently deceased) characters. They should have a suitably cool "grand entrance" scene where they prove their inherent worth to the party, but should have to work at finding a place within the group for the most part. If your character dies, your new character shouldn't be better than the dead one. As many have said, dying should not bring rewards (unless you die valiantly/heroicly/epicly/etc.). There is a reason we all avoid death - we see it as a punishment not a reward. The characters (and players) should see that as well. Never overestimate your player's character's power. You are the DM. You are there the make sure that the party is suitably and efficiently challenged at any level of power they achieve. If you are running a level 10 group of PCs but they are achieving feats of bravado on par with level 11 or 12, make sure that the challenges are set accordingly - don't send them hordes of CR 10s if they are perfectly capable of handling CR 10+s. And the players don't even need to know you're doing it. Do it and they will be happier for it, 'cause they'll be achieving more. The best way of doing this is giving lesser threats greater resources (i.e. class levels, magic items, minions, traps, etc.). Sadly, there is no sure-fire cure of poor imagination. The most you can do is encourage your players. Definately demand some rational behind characters. They want to have a pillar of good and a depth of evil PC in the group - let em. But make sure they know they now have to come up with a suitable backstory to support the situation. It's not your job to make their characters believable, but it your job (or at least the fun of DMing in my opinion) to make your campaign make sense. If you players' characters are endangering the fabriks of your reality, let them know and give them some suggestions on how to fit it better. Nothing is impossible, but many things are unlikely, and the players need to respect that if you want a campaign that makes sense. Enough ranting. I hope it wasn't too lecturing. I hope is was helpful.