Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aotrscommander 08-15-06, 08:31 AM	Okay, this is a DM question, rather than strictly a D&D question. At Easter, I ran an adventure for the group favourite party (Rolemaster Sci-Fi) where the party essentially discovered an unknown alien race at the edge of the galaxy. Long story short, after concluding the adventure, I asked them what their next move was. To my surprise, they wanted to bring it to the attention of basically the highest level characters in the galaxy (whom they have met briefly previously). I had been hoping after the prior meeting and the point that said high level characters are off saving the universe on a regular basis (and are therefore dead busy, that that would be it for a while. (Said high level guys are like the top ruling adventures of their race too.) High level guys disappear back into the background until maybe a cameo sometime in the future. But the PCs, at the first adventure since meeting the high level guys, immediately turn to them when something goes slightly pear-shaped. Heck, the PCs haven't even found out if these aliens were hostile or not (actually if they weren't before they might well be now, since one reckless loon started randomly shooting some of the alien's mindless drones and kicked off a big fight!) This rather struck me as a 'oh help us high level people, we're too wussy and need you to save the galaxy' (and said as much to the players). So I told them, 'fine, but you'll have to write me report detailing what exactly you're telling them so I can judge their response since, given as you guys are a very minor group of adventurers they've met like twice, you're not going to be explaining things to them in person.' Nobody wrote me anything, despite me periodically kicking them to do so. I must stress that I didn't need reams of detail, but enough to give a clear idea of the response that would be generated from the high-level guys. What I am aiming for is not for the high level guys to basically come in and swipe the adventure because the PCs came running to them for help since it a) kind of reeks for my cool plot hooks and b) gives the PCs the impression that they can call for help from these guys and they'll come running at the drop of a hat. That was in Easter. So I ended up handing the players an ultimatum; give me something written soon or we'll be playing something else for the quest at my birthday in October. They complained that they couldn't remember what had happened, since it was so long ago, so I summarised again during our recent Thursday evening session. Finally, I have received something from one of the players (the one who originally said he'd write the report but didn't, actually). I noticed that he seemed to have missed all the salient points (actually some of the things he reported were plain wrong, and not in an 'economical with the truth' way, either. One of the other players phoned me and asked if he wrote a report up if I would check if the events were correct. I told him to check with the first player's report and talk to his fellow players, but said basically, since they'd all left it so long and I'd explained it all again recently, that I wasn't going to bend over backward to help them make their report right. My reasoning is that they have had plenty of time and reminders to organise this report between themselves and haven't. Is that too harsh? I really don't want them to succeed in piquing the high-level team's interest, but I don't want to be unfair about it either. Edit spelling...
Lokathor 08-15-06, 08:48 AM	Nothing harsh. If they don't get the report right, they can send it off anyways. If they don't have anything they can send off, they can just play another adventure.
Archmage Atrus 08-15-06, 08:57 AM	I think you're being harsh. There's no reason why your characters need to write you a real report if its for an in-game reason. Unless you're a 6th grade english teacher, and like handing out written reports, that is. Which, hey, possible. But it was your choice introducing them to 1-800-Deus-Ex-Machina, so now you have to deal with the consequences of players wanting either advice from, or just plain shovelling the adventure to, the higher level supergroup. I mean, seriously, if someone introduced you to Superman, Batman, and the other JLers, and gave you their addresses, would you not call them the next time you learn of an alien invasion? (That's a little unfair - you're not an adventurer. You might be a 6th grade english teacher.) A simple "We want to send a report out to the Justice League" (or whatever your guys call themselves) "detailing what we learned about the Aliens." Should have been more than enough. They could have received a reply with "Proceed with caution, keep us informed," or "Thanks for letting us know, we're not in right now, we're saving the Galaxy from this other threat." Or you could have decided that the super guys all had a free lunch break, and went to handle the adventure just to spite the PCs. (And, of course, not give the PCs any XP for it.) After a while, they'll get tired of being the super leaguer's prop dogs, and start doing things on their own again.
Lokathor 08-15-06, 09:07 AM	But Atrus, just because you might have met the president once doesn't mean that you can send any old thing off to him and have him just get to work on it. High level adventurers that are protectors of the galixy as described simply don't have time to read junk reports because they get reports about trouble all the time. They'd setup some kind of screening process to weed out the useless crap. And really: The way I understand it it seems that the DM is only asking for a single page; and the time given to write this page is Easter to October. If, among a group of 4 people, noone cares enough to write a total of a single page given that amount of time.. yeesh. Either way, the superheros either get the report and save the day without the PCs getting anything but a pat on the back, or the PCs don't send it and they just go on some other adventure.
Tormsskull 08-15-06, 09:12 AM	I'm going to say harsh. Writing a real report can be a little over the top. Add in the fact that there has been a substantial amount of off time between sessions and you're asking your players to take the game way too seriously. Since there has been a significant amount of downtime, I'd recomend cutting them a lot of slack on this report. Have them just tell you the gist of the report they are going to send, and if they include any lies make sure they understand that they are lieing. You'd be surprised how a span of time can mess with what people remember happening. It sounds to me like you already have your mind made up with what you want to happen, and this report is just a way to deter them. If that is what you want to do, simply tell them whatever you want but don't require the report.
Archmage Atrus 08-15-06, 09:16 AM	The way I understand it it seems that the DM is only asking for a single page; and the time given to write this page is Easter to October. Dude, if my DM gave me homework, I would stand up and leave his game. It's one thing for me to come up with something because I want to do it. But the DM shouldn't ask me for 500 words if I want to send a comunique to a bunch of berks I think might be interested. I don't have time outside of the game session to spend dallying around in the DM's world. I've got classes, jobs, research, writing, and worrying about my own games. If I have some free time and want to write up a report, I should come up with that idea myself and hand it to the DM (maybe for some extra XP if he's into that sort of thing.) But character actions shoudl never be player actions. Unless you're a LARPer. (Which, I will point out right now so as to ensure there is no miscommunication about possible biases, I hate LARPing.) What it boils down to: The DM doesn't require me to hit a target with a sword whenever I want my character to attack. I shouldn't be required to write a report for my character to send one off to these superguys. Whether or not they read the report is entirely up to the DM, regardless of whether or not the PCs write up a nice written work. (Although if I were DMing, and one of the PCs handed me a report that I didn't ask for, I would certainly weight it in their favor when making that decision.) The situation can easily be handled with a few skill checks (Knowledge (Business) if you're playing D20 modern, for example; I'm sure there's an equivalent skill in whatever system you're playing) so the DM doesn't even have to think. If the PCs don't want to handle the alien problem, there's no reason for you to railroad them to.
aotrscommander 08-15-06, 09:22 AM	I think you're being harsh. There's no reason why your characters need to write you a real report if its for an in-game reason. Unless you're a 6th grade english teacher, and like handing out written reports, that is. Which, hey, possible. Writing the report was a necessary evil. Rolemaster being what it is, it is not viable for me to off-the-cuff an adventure, so I need time to prepare. We didn't have time at the end of the previous adventure fo them to decide as a group what to do. Even had we, I would have made them jot it down as they went so that when it came to running I wouldn't have the exact opposite problem in reverse (that I couldn't remember what they'd said and not said). I don't think, seeing as all the work I put in to writing the quests/games, asking the players to collectively write me a couple of paragraphs is unreasonable (especially given the length of time between sessions, Easter - October). Plus, given the fact the PCs may well have started an unnecessary intergalactic war and they know they might have (they still don't know who the aliens are and if they're hostile; all they encountered were drones), I wanted them to think carefully about what it was they were going to tell the other guys; basically give them enough rope to hang themselves (though they are collectively smart enough to avoid that - if they work at it). But it was your choice introducing them to 1-800-Deus-Ex-Machina, so now you have to deal with the consequences of players wanting either advice from, or just plain shovelling the adventure to, the higher level supergroup. I mean, seriously, if someone introduced you to Superman, Batman, and the other JLers, and gave you their addresses, would you not call them the next time you learn of an alien invasion? After a while, they'll get tired of being the super leaguer's prop dogs, and start doing things on their own again. Your other point is valid (and not far from the truth, either!); I did put myself into this situation. However, it was (intended!) to be more along the lines of (say) Static meeting the JL, having a brief adventure, and going back to his own adventures, not calling Batman every time his finds a mystery he can't immediately solve. But that appears to be what I've got. After a while, they'll get tired of being the super leaguer's prop dogs, and start doing things on their own again. I'm not at all sure they would actually, munchkins that they are... But thank you for your opinions.
aotrscommander 08-15-06, 09:24 AM	If, among a group of 4 people, noone cares enough to write a total of a single page given that amount of time.. yeesh. Actually, more like six people!
Kuruk 08-15-06, 10:48 AM	I don't think this is overly harsh. Atrus, how long did it take you to write up your two responses? Between your posting times probably less than 30 minutes total, and if you put all of what you wrote in a word document, it comes out to more than 1 page. (Using Times New Roman 12pt font) You found the time to scan the boards and reply to something no one asked you to do before you had to leave for work/school/errands. Do you really think that asking for a simple 1/2 page to a page of writing as a request from your DM (and probably your friend as well) is such a burden?
Archmage Atrus 08-15-06, 10:55 AM	You found the time to scan the boards and reply to something no one asked you to do before you had to leave for work/school/errands. Do you really think that asking for a simple 1/2 page to a page of writing as a request from your DM (and probably your friend as well) is such a burden? Yes, because I peruse these boards of my own volition. I didn't say they didn't have the free time for it, I said the DM shouldn't require them to spend their free time - which they should be allowed to spend however they want to - in his game. I am both an incredibly fast reader and an incredibly fast writer. (You have to be when you're a law student and are only given 3 hours to write a 15 page response to a 7 page test.) They're not the DM, and while I sympathize with the whole "I spend all this time into my game, why shouldn't they?" mentality, the fact is, they shouldn't have to. They're the players, you're the DM. You spend that free time into your world because 1) you want to, and 2) it's fun to do so. Heck I find myself writing adventures and settings in my free time, even though I know I'll likely never use them. It's just part and parcel of being a good DM. A player is just supposed to know the rules, know his characters, and come to the game prepared to play and enjoy the game. If they want to do something else, that's fine. But they shouldn't be required to do more.
Bob Loblaw 08-15-06, 10:56 AM	I think you are being too harsh. As someone already pointed out, you don't require them to actually shoot at the enemy, you shouldn't require them to actually write the report. It would be acceptible to have them make an appropriate skill check (I don't know much about the system you are using) and based on how well, they do, determine if the report is good enough. I have been DMing since 1980, and in that time one of the things I learned is that I will end up putting far more time into the game than anyone else at the table. That is the way it goes. It is part of the job. Besides, everyone has out-of-game things to worry about also (work, school, family, life, etc) and as time goes on, they will tend to forget things that happened a few months ago. Can you, honestly, remember every event from last week? No, why expect the same thing from your players?
Findail 08-15-06, 11:06 AM	Is this a first-contact situation? First contact with an intelligent spacefaring race of unknown capabilities should be one of the most important events in a sci-fi scenario. I think it's entirely prudent and in-character for PC's to pass on this information to the highest-ranking people they can find. I suppose a fantasy equivalent would be "Whoops, we've just released a trapped deity of unknown power, I suppose we'd better tell someone".
pres_man 08-15-06, 11:06 AM	I will say, from my experience as a DM, my perceptions of a situation are much different then the players a lot of times. I often see much more of the "big picture" then they do, they only focus on things that immediately occupy their characters. I will often do a log of the session, giving the basic events that occured without a whole lot of specific detail (unless it is relevant). I would suggest that the party starts working for this group of big bad heroes. The heroes are off doing even more dangerous stuff and tell the party investigate further.
revnk 08-15-06, 11:18 AM	I don't have a problem with asking the players to write a short report. And if they get details wrong, they get details wrong. The high-level NPCs react to what they get, accurate or no. Frankly, information problems (reports that are inaccurate or false) are such a major part of real-world events and history that it might be fun to play along with the logical consequences of what falls out from the PCs' inaccurate message. That said, Archmage Atrus is absolutely right that you created this situation. Sure, if I met the President once, I wouldn't call him about "any old thing." (Then again, that might have more to do with my personal politics and my assessment of the gentleman than any concern about annoying him... in fact, now that I put it that way.... :devil: ) But if I had Batman's cell number and I saw The Joker, Two-Face, The Penguin, and The Riddler getting ready to destroy Gotham again, you can bet your ____ I'd be hitting the speed-dial. Even if I just happened to be a superhero and not a pudgy slacker, I hope I'd still worry about getting in over my head in some situations. So yeah, I'd be dialing up the JLA for advice or backup even if I had the super-strength or could fly around in tights. But Archmage Atrus also suggests some solutions: the epic heroes don't read the report, or they radio back that they're busy and/or that they trust the PCs but should be kept-up-to-date. This is probably the best route. Other solutions in a sf setting may come up, but only if you brought them up earlier so that they don't appear to be spontaneous squashing of player strategies: for instance, if you told the players during their trip to the planet that the world in question is often subject to solar storms that disrupt communications, you could invoke a communications outage to raise a question of whether the epic heroes received or responded--but if you didn't mention the solar activity then, it would be awfully "convenient" to suddenly mention it now. One obvious possibility might be the aliens jamming transmissions, sabotaging comm relays, creating hyperspatial fluxes, etc. (a lot depends on how long-distance communications work in your setting). One last point: if the players are concerned that the challenges they face are too tough, it's always possible they're right. Whenever my players start doing that, I generally try to double-check my own work. (I'm not perfect, and I can get as defensive about my work as the next guy, but I try; thus I sometimes do and sometimes do not, to paraphrase Yoda.) Keep in mind that you can sometimes do a double-check mentally "on the fly" at the gaming table. Sometimes I hold the course, and sometimes I realize the players are right and I adapt accordingly. (At the table, adapting might mean that an NPC arrogantly makes a tactical error that shifts the advantage, or that a planned encounter is delayed, or that an NPC offers a helpful bit of advice, etc. Away from the table, adapting might mean a partial re-write.) Understand, sometimes players are overly cautious or their problems are their own damn fault, and you don't need to "correct" something every time they complain. But it never hurts to evaluate their complaints--and begging for powerful NPC help is often an implicit complaint. (Sometimes it's also good roleplay--after all, calling in a problem would be in-character for many people.) Anyway, hope that helps.
aotrscommander 08-15-06, 11:46 AM	Thank you all for your continued input. You are correct that I sort of expected them to report the goings to to someone - just not to whom they are reporting to (there are at lest two PCs who have offical contacts in the right places in sone of the other major powers). This itself is not the issue I am most concerned with. In the case of at least one PC it's not necessarily the smartest move either, since he's a wanted criminal. While he's not exactly the galaxies most wanted, said group of high-levels (and their race in general) tend to have a fairly...direct way of dealing with such folk (and the PCs all know this). The fact that this homicidal, gun-happy manic may well have started an interstellar war does not help his case! (This is partly one of those chaotic stupid consequence things!) I should also say that one player (the afore-mentioned character's player actually!) swore blind he'd do a write-up but never did; in hindsight I should have chased some of my more reliable players to do it, and will do so, should the event ever occur again! They are going to be able to send the report anyway; whether it is looked at or not will depend entirely on the contents (I know the character of the high-levels in question, so it's simple case of measured response). What I am concerned about is drawing the line between basically telling them what to put in it (by going over all the things they discovered again) and not being too overbearing by not refreshing their memories about things that they've forgotten since they didn't do it in the first place. To an extent it won't mater too much in the start of the next adventure, since they are still in the area, following one of these alien freighters to see where it goes; but it will be important to the end of that section and to the next one.
Pegasos989 08-15-06, 12:32 PM	I am with the part of you being harsh... I mean, that if my DM said "So you want to report the king about the threat? Sure, write 500 hundred word raport and it might or might not be looked at...", I would certainly not do it! I also think that it was completely logical for them to report first. Their characters might not want to risk their lives with aliens if there is high-level group that can take care of it... I don't think it is "we are to sissy to do anything" but rather "we roleplay our characters"... I also think that it is DMs duty to help player if he does not remeber something his character would. I am not saying that it is ALL your fault - if a player promises to write it, he should. However, I think it is harsh to require that in the first place.
Gottwick 08-15-06, 12:38 PM	Long story short, after concluding the adventure, I asked them what their next move was. To my surprise, they wanted to bring it to the attention of basically the highest level characters in the galaxy (whom they have met briefly previously). I can't even get the attention of a manager to approve fixing an overworked server, and these players think epic heroes have extra time in their day? Give the epic heroes personal assistants like David Spade. "I'm sorry, he's not in right now. And you are ...?"
Exquisite_Flopilidopilies 08-15-06, 03:05 PM	This isn't "harsh." It's never unreasonable to ask for a complete description of what someone's character is doing; since you're running this only once in a while, and it's a complex situation requiring some advance planning, this is of necessity done intersession, in written form. I think people are getting hung up on calling it a "report" (and maybe your players are as well), with the associations the word has for schoolwork. Say, "Okay, I don't need a report, I just need a description of 'what's in the report' instead."
Pegasos989 08-15-06, 03:23 PM	Yeah, well naturally if it means "We give detailed description of our encounter with them at there, there and there and about the scroll we found there", it is reasonable. However, as players have not been able to do it properly, I assume he requires some more complicated and longer report...
aotrscommander 08-15-06, 03:33 PM	This isn't "harsh." It's never unreasonable to ask for a complete description of what someone's character is doing; since you're running this only once in a while, and it's a complex situation requiring some advance planning, this is of necessity done intersession, in written form. I think people are getting hung up on calling it a "report" (and maybe your players are as well), with the associations the word has for schoolwork. Say, "Okay, I don't need a report, I just need a description of 'what's in the report' instead." I think you're right. I should have been a little clearer. I didn't expect the PCs write as if a formal report to their boss (though that would be worht some extra XP!); what I told them I wanted from them was "I need to know exactly what you are telling them." A list of bullet points would have been sufficent. I also would not have done this (or needed to) if it were a weekly session; we could just have sorted it through one evening at the end of the segment, leaving able to write up the next portion of quest for when I ran again. But at least one player only comes to our all-day sessions and not our weekly evening sessions (he lives in another city) so it wasn't practical to have them do this. Also, I say again, there were slightly easier (and safer for at least one member of the party!)options for people to send the information to (I mean damn, there's THREE ex-SPIES in the party! With contacts! But no... Take the hard route, why don'tcha, guys...!) Right. Let's leave aside the debate whether or not the PCs should have actually have had to do this, and concentrate on my main problem; given that they had ample time to do this, and given that I went over it all again one evening recently for them, should I go through it all again (which in all likelihood means they will put it all in, which defeats the object of having them do it in the first place, and removes the possibility of them screwing up), or do I say: 'Enough is enough, chaps. Between the lot of you and given I recounted everything about a week ago (two at the outside!), you should be able to remember enough to put something down without me telling you.' How much should I help them? (I mean, how many times do you read out the description of the same room before getting peeved because while they may be listening, nobody's paying attention?) (I might also add in my defense, that sometimes trying to get ideas for plots for this group (and it' everybody's favourite characters by their own admissions) is like trying to get blood out of a stone! I have asked the question on occasion "is there anything anybody wants to do in the next adventure?" and if I'm lucky, one player will give me a small idea; mostly I'm met with crickets chirruping! In many ways as a group this is great, because it makes it easy to run the long-running weekly campaigns, since they stick to the storyline mostly, but as this game (being played as it is in small segments) is as close to more free-form as we get, sometimes it can be hard! Oh, though the player of the homicidal potential war-starting maniac would love to have a game where he gets to kill/rob/loot people and become a crime lord with the sort of childish glee he gets playing Grand Theft Auto, I have told him - numerous, numerous times, that I am not interested in running this sort of game.)
Wuggadad 08-16-06, 12:14 AM	I don't see what the problem is. As the GM you informed the players what it would take to get the attention of the Epic Heroes. You reminded them. You even provided a recap. As a GM myself, I would simply inform the party, "Everybody decided to make no special effort to contact the Epic Heroes. Everybody decided to send an ordinary report, created by NPCs, and send it through channels. Time now passes." At which point you have the complaints about the party members not remembering the last session. Inform them that they could have taken notes. They could have handled the report in a timely fashion. They chose not to. Time having now passed, if the party sends a second report, that will point to their inadequecies in their first report. Ask them what would happen in real life to officers who sent off a report, and then several weeks later sent off a much more alarming report on roughly the same data. If you are going to make a threat or announcement, you should follow through.
Wuggadad 08-16-06, 12:21 AM	With regards to Archmage Atrus, if one of my players said, "I can't be bothered to think about your campaign outside of gaming" I would not be favorably disposed towards them, and would seek to replace them as early as possible. As a GM, I put a lot of thought into my campaign. I want players who put a lot of thought into their characters. There is certainly room for campaigns where everything is a series of combat encounters like a computer game, I just don't care to participate in those. It is a different gaming niche.
SnowSage 08-16-06, 01:25 AM	Right. Let's leave aside the debate whether or not the PCs should have actually have had to do this, and concentrate on my main problem; OK, dude, you specifically asked "Is giving this assignment and the reactions to it I have told you of unreasonable" and I paraphrase there. Therefore, you cannot say here "OK, most people think I'm a jack%^&, so I'm gonna turn the forrum away from the question I asked in the first place and stear it in another direction." Here's my answer: If my DM told me to write a darn thing up for him, or even asked the party to do it cumulatively in reality, I would find another game to play in, and promptly leave. As a PC it is my job to play my charracter, and have fun so that other people can play their charracters and have fun, too. Any and all obligations you have to your DM, excluding your charracter sheet, can be conveyed in verbal form, and typically in generalizations and dice rolls. If you don't like being the only person who does any work outside of the session, go back to being a PC and leave the DMing to people willing to bend with, and be reasonable with their players.
The.End 08-16-06, 01:40 AM	I don't think it's harsh at all.
aotrscommander 08-16-06, 05:40 AM	OK, dude, you specifically asked "Is giving this assignment and the reactions to it I have told you of unreasonable" and I paraphrase there. Therefore, you cannot say here "OK, most people think I'm a jack%^&, so I'm gonna turn the forrum away from the question I asked in the first place and stear it in another direction." Here's my answer: If my DM told me to write a darn thing up for him, or even asked the party to do it cumulatively in reality, I would find another game to play in, and promptly leave. As a PC it is my job to play my charracter, and have fun so that other people can play their charracters and have fun, too. Any and all obligations you have to your DM, excluding your charracter sheet, can be conveyed in verbal form, and typically in generalizations and dice rolls. If you don't like being the only person who does any work outside of the session, go back to being a PC and leave the DMing to people willing to bend with, and be reasonable with their players. No, I didn't, I just wasn't especially clear about what I was asking (my bad). My intention was to garner opinions on whether or not I should repeat the information the players have been given again, or not. Granted, I didn't say that very clearly. Sorry. Nevertheless, the debate on the question about the report is interesting, and will shall can continue as you desire. But could I ask then, everyone, that during the debate on whether or not I should have done this in the first place, you could also repond to the question above (even it's it's just to say 'obviously as you shouldn't have done it in the first place, you should now help them')? It would be most appreciated. Ultimately, though - especially in this particular series of quests, I expect some player input occasionally outside of the game. As you seem to be dead set against doing any work outside your game aside from actual playing, may I ask you what happens when your DM asks you to write him some character background? Or if you have leadership and/or end are owing a castle or something? What I asked for, which was not the formal report that people have been interpreting it as (again, my bad for not stating correcly), was the PCs to write down exactly what information they were sending these guys so that, umpteen months down the line, I could write the next quest based on that information. Given that the players can't even remember what happened in the adventure without prompting, asking them to remember what they told somebody else would have gotten nowhere even faster! I don't see what the problem is. As the GM you informed the players what it would take to get the attention of the Epic Heroes. You reminded them. You even provided a recap. As a GM myself, I would simply inform the party, "Everybody decided to make no special effort to contact the Epic Heroes. Everybody decided to send an ordinary report, created by NPCs, and send it through channels. Time now passes." At which point you have the complaints about the party members not remembering the last session. Inform them that they could have taken notes. They could have handled the report in a timely fashion. They chose not to. Time having now passed, if the party sends a second report, that will point to their inadequecies in their first report. Ask them what would happen in real life to officers who sent off a report, and then several weeks later sent off a much more alarming report on roughly the same data. If you are going to make a threat or announcement, you should follow through. They aren't even part of an organisation; they're just adventurers! But you have a point about NPCs; I perhaps should have used a more typical* threat; "well, if you guys don't [write the 'report'], the sixteen-years old mall-rat mutant Jubilee clone NPC will!" That usually spurs them through sheer terror to do something! I mean, can you imagine: "So like, anyway we met these alien dude, and they were like, weird fungus things... [long, long run-on paragraphs and sentences of roughly what happened, complete with fashion critiques and interpersed with numerous 'totally's and 'like's]...and then Liam, like, totally freaked and started shooting them and they like, started attaking us and...oops, I totally wasn't supposed to say that, was I?" It'd be enough to make your eyes bleed. *For this party!
Wuggadad 08-16-06, 02:48 PM	Ah, the whole idea of relying on NPCs to do your reports or PR... "According to this report, Ensign Redshirt single handedly saved the galaxy from your incompetance. And here are your signatures on the report." As a GM in that situation, I would say, "The report has been sent. This is what actually happened. There may be some discrepancies in the report. >:) " Party is not in a position to claim, "But that isn't what happened, or what we did!" because they didn't take notes. Parties which do not take notes allow the GM to subtly rewrite the history of the campaign. Need a different explanation for a bad guy's plotting? No problem! Just insert stuff into the recap that didn't actually happen, but how would the players know? Mu ha ha Mu ha ha.
aotrscommander 08-16-06, 06:01 PM	One of the other players has told me he is currently working on a different version of the 'report'; he says he's trying to make it more blow by blow... should be amusing, since he that he was trying to work out how to implicate the frothing nutter... not that implicating take much effort, the truth would do!
Masterfulks 08-16-06, 06:23 PM	Unless it's a short email that a player wants to send, a report is too much. They should just be able to tell you verbally whats in the report without writing it. Have your super powerful galaxy guys just refuse to answer them. Or have them contracted to handle the situation. Or move the galaxy guys to a different plane where they can't be reached for the time. Or kill them off.
Kradlo 08-16-06, 06:53 PM	What I gather from your description of the situation may be that the players are not as motivated or interested in your campaign as you are. There could be any number of reasons for this. Perhaps the genre doesn't appeal to them as much as it does to you. Perhaps it's simply the passage of time that's causing an ebb in their enthusiasm. It happens in many gaming groups. Having your players write a report may not rekindle their enthusiasm for the game. If it feels like a homework assignment, you'll turn them off. But let's assume that the lack of response is due to the current state of the campaign, and not general disinterest in gaming. You have an issue with them calling for the high level savior of the universe. Players that have access to a powerful resource would be rather foolish to pass up a chance to make use of that resource when needed. You gave them access, and they're making use of it. If you really want to make them go it alone, you could have the savior of the universe show up to save the day, and get killed in a sudden, graphic and horrifying manner. Think of Captain Amazing in Mystery Men. It not only means the players are on their own, it also means that the brown matter has really hit the rotating blades. Play the drama to the hilt. From the sounds of it, you're doing space opera, so play it up. You'll need some kind of strange experimental device to be a focal point to the adventure. Will this device, powered by forces that can barely be understood much less controlled, be the means to the salvation of the universe, or its ultimate destruction? Have a plot device that may require a PC to sacrifice himself to save the others. "The aliens are coming, and you have to go through the star gate. I can hold them off, but only for so long. Once you're through, close the gate and destroy it so they can't reopen it. Remember to raise a glass of Antarran ale to me sometime." You've got to renew your players' interest in the game. Make things more exciting, and really make them the stars of the campaign. With Captain Amazing dead, the fate of the galaxy rests in their hands. Work on the pace of the game as well, and think in terms of cliffhangers. If the PCs stop at a boring point in the game, they'll remember boredom. Bring them to a dramatic point, and then call the game until next week. Your players will be buzzing with excitement until they can play again.
aotrscommander 08-16-06, 07:37 PM	What I gather from your description of the situation may be that the players are not as motivated or interested in your campaign as you are. snip That's not quite the case! If it was merely player to character apathy, I would be more understanding! But the players jump up and down when I say I'm going to run this party. I have had the same set of core players for years, and this party is the group's favourite; I'm not just saying that as DM, either. As I said in the first post, the impetus for getting them to finally get their collective butts in gear this was that if they didn't, we wouldn't be playing THIS group at our next session but I'd run another party. Have a plot device that may require a PC to sacrifice himself to save the others. "The aliens are coming, and you have to go through the star gate. I can hold them off, but only for so long. Once you're through, close the gate and destroy it so they can't reopen it. Remember to raise a glass of Antarran ale to me sometime." If I mentioned that, I'm pretty sure they'd lynch me. No, wait, I'm SURE they'd lynch me. If you really want to make them go it alone, you could have the savior of the universe show up to save the day, and get killed in a sudden, graphic and horrifying manner. Think of Captain Amazing in Mystery Men. It not only means the players are on their own, it also means that the brown matter has really hit the rotating blades. Trouble is, anything strong enough to do that would be able to make mincemeat out of the players (when I say high level, I mean like really high level; they are like, 10 TIMES the level of the PCs) and worse leave it open for the equally high level enemies of the high-level team who also know about the PCs; as they are currently fighting the high-levels, they don't consider the PCs to be worth dealing with. If the high-level guys die, the PCs might find themselves at the top of the priority list as 'last people to kill before everyone in the universe dies'! Plus, it never hurts for the PCs to know that in this case they are most definately NOT the big heroes who save the universe (they get enough of that in our other games!) They are at best, the guys who have, on occasion, contributed to saving the universe in an important, but indirect fashion. My group are actually very good for me to DM for, since they are pretty much prepared to run any old thing I care to throw at them*. Since the group's inception, I have only had one campaign idea not function as well as I hoped; partly that was due to one or two players struggling with the concept; I abandoned the quest to amused cat-calls from some of other players. The other big reason was related to the problem I've having here: they weren't giving me enough input! So you are partly right; I take my gaming more seriously (re: obessively!) than some of them do. Heck, no, more than all of them; they do silly things like go out to socialise (re booze) and get girl/boy friends, where I don't (partly because I don't drink, partly because I'm an anti-social git - by choice, I might add!) While I thank everyone for their helpful suggestions about what the response ought to be from the high-levels, I must stress that I know exactly how they will react to a stimulus; what I am trying to get the PCs to do is determine what stimulus they are sending out. It might be as simple as they leave out critically important data (which means it's just ignored) or they might be able to put in enough data to pique the character's interest. What I'm trying to decide is how much help I should now give them: a) none at all, maybe resulting in the first responce (which may not be totally correct in light of character knowledge) or b) go through it all in detail again, leading almost certainly to the latter option without them having to work for it. It is entirely possible for the PCs to enlist the help of the high-levels; but I want to make it difficult for them to do so. *Where 'any old thing' is a given value of 'more hours of work than I care to easily reiterate'.
DericFeld 08-16-06, 07:39 PM	I don't really see the problem everyone has in with this report. The players aren't be forced to write it when given the option they could have said " Just tell them we have a problem with some fungus." or even chosen to not send to report after all. I remember playing a game where my DM felt that a wish spell could in fact do absolutely anything we could ask for (tossing the rather strict 2nd ed rules out the window.) the catch was that casting a wish was actually forcing the gods to bend to your will. They didn't like that and reacted by looking at wishes like lawyers so a wish to get 5 points to strength cost 6 to CON in return. We used to have a lot of fun writing out our wishes trying to take every contingency into account. Again we didn't have to do this the other options were to take what we got o just leave well enough alone and sell those three wish rings to other fools. It’s the same situation if they write the report the might get a desirable effect if they schlep it together it gets lost in the super NPC's in box or they find another solution. Oh and I say don't help if you leave things off in real life the facts do get fuzzy and we just need to deal with it the chars should suffer the same fate. And as you said they do have other better options at their disposal that they can fall back on.
SnowSage 08-17-06, 11:24 PM	As you seem to be dead set against doing any work outside your game aside from actual playing, may I ask you what happens when your DM asks you to write him some character background? Or if you have leadership and/or end are owing a castle or something? ah, good points, however, as I said, Charracter sheets are the only nessisary writen device. I wrote up a backstory for my first campain, In which I played a half-human, quarter elf, quarter dragon fighter using homebrew racial stats my DM had helped me to make and balance. I was playing the charracter because I have a half-elf, half-dragon sorceror sheet lying around from a campain I was planning on playing in several years ago, but never got around to, so I decided my new guy would be his son. I wrote up the entire backstory, slaving away at it with all my creative talents {I'm one of thoes guys who doesn't do a damn thing for his english classes, but when he does people find it better done than his teacher's work. Yes, I am still in high school, but what do you expect, I'm only 16.} It took me days, and then I gave it to the DM, a full binder's worth, four days before the first session. He glanced at it, and asked me to paraphrase it verbally. I was hurt, but I did so, and found I conveyed everything I needed to reasonably well. Ever since, that same theory of paraphrasing verbally has worked for every DM I have had, and I see no reason why it should stop now. This is my philosophy on all stories in any way related to my charracters, and even when I play with older groups who are far more serious than my orrigonal ones, I find it still works. To answer the other questions: yes. When I take leadership or have some great castle or other such fortress under my control, I do the nessecities: Roll up a charracter for the cohort, roll up charracters for the followers/servants/usual visitors, and pass them with the DM. The rest, I do with backstory work {as prior stated, verbal summery} and in game roleplaying.
aotrscommander 08-18-06, 09:45 AM	ah, good points, however, as I said, Charracter sheets are the only nessisary writen device. I wrote up a backstory for my first campain, In which I played a half-human, quarter elf, quarter dragon fighter using homebrew racial stats my DM had helped me to make and balance. I was playing the charracter because I have a half-elf, half-dragon sorceror sheet lying around from a campain I was planning on playing in several years ago, but never got around to, so I decided my new guy would be his son. I wrote up the entire backstory, slaving away at it with all my creative talents {I'm one of thoes guys who doesn't do a damn thing for his english classes, but when he does people find it better done than his teacher's work. Yes, I am still in high school, but what do you expect, I'm only 16.} It took me days, and then I gave it to the DM, a full binder's worth, four days before the first session. He glanced at it, and asked me to paraphrase it verbally. I was hurt, but I did so, and found I conveyed everything I needed to reasonably well. Ever since, that same theory of paraphrasing verbally has worked for every DM I have had, and I see no reason why it should stop now. This is my philosophy on all stories in any way related to my charracters, and even when I play with older groups who are far more serious than my orrigonal ones, I find it still works. I guess then it depends on your DM. I am a consistancy freak; I like everything to be RIGHT. All my quests are written up in advance (I don't do off-the-cuff well). You may have been a tad overzealous (a full binder may have been a little excessive), but I, personally, would have still made the effort to read it, even if not immediately (and then, assuming that you didn't know the campaign world as well as me, the DM, made any tweaks to fit it in the world if necessary). Generally, verbal information is fine - but someone has to record unless you've got a photographic memory (especially if it applies to something months in advance); if I can't remember what's been said, my players aren't either. Heck, half the time some of them can't remember what happened the previous week (sometimes I can't)! As in this specific case, the PC have the potential to gain something out of it, I am not going to be responcible for handing to the players on a silver platter - if they want it, they will have to work for it.
SnowSage 08-18-06, 02:28 PM	I guess then it depends on your DM. I am a consistancy freak; I like everything to be RIGHT. All my quests are written up in advance (I don't do off-the-cuff well). You may have been a tad overzealous (a full binder may have been a little excessive), but I, personally, would have still made the effort to read it, even if not immediately (and then, assuming that you didn't know the campaign world as well as me, the DM, made any tweaks to fit it in the world if necessary). Generally, verbal information is fine - but someone has to record unless you've got a photographic memory (especially if it applies to something months in advance); if I can't remember what's been said, my players aren't either. Heck, half the time some of them can't remember what happened the previous week (sometimes I can't)! As in this specific case, the PC have the potential to gain something out of it, I am not going to be responcible for handing to the players on a silver platter - if they want it, they will have to work for it. Yeah, that's true. You seem like the kind who loves to plan, and there's nothing wrong with that. all my experience is improv. My DMs, and I myself, when I DM, prefer to understand that the unexpected is going to happen one way or another, so instead of wasting our time making an entire dungeon a month in advance when the PCs might thwart the attempt to kidnap the prince, we tend to make plot guidelines, plan the stats and reasons for the combat encounters, and make the rest up on-the-fly. Different styles of DMing produce different ideas on almost everything game related. And yeah, I know it was a bit long... I just got lost in the story as I wrote it and wanted to keep going. I kinda knew Ed wouldn't read the whole thing... but I expected him to at least skim it after I had spent so long on it... but that was my own faul... good luck with your campain!
aotrscommander 08-18-06, 03:17 PM	Yeah, that's true. You seem like the kind who loves to plan, and there's nothing wrong with that. all my experience is improv. Ah. I think SnowSage, you may have hit on a pertinant point; improv verses planning. In an improv campaign, the DM has to do a lot less work pre-game (that being sort of the major advantage). Perhaps then players (and DMs) who play these sort of games as a matter of course feel less inclind to do stuff out of game time. Whereas those of us that spend a massive amount of time preparing stuff feel justified in asking the players to do some pre-game work as well (occasionallly). So, a question; (especially to all those who have disagreed with my asking for the 'report' in the first place); do you play mainly off-the-cuff games, or do you have to prepare? I'm curious now.
SnowSage 08-18-06, 03:34 PM	Ah. I think SnowSage, you may have hit on a pertinant point; improv verses planning. In an improv campaign, the DM has to do a lot less work pre-game (that being sort of the major advantage). Perhaps then players (and DMs) who play these sort of games as a matter of course feel less inclind to do stuff out of game time. Whereas those of us that spend a massive amount of time preparing stuff feel justified in asking the players to do some pre-game work as well (occasionallly). So, a question; (especially to all those who have disagreed with my asking for the 'report' in the first place); do you play mainly off-the-cuff games, or do you have to prepare? I'm curious now. well, you have my answer. Personally, I wouldn't do it any other way... improv is fun, and it's something my friends and I are good at, so it works... but if you like planning, hey... it's a different style, but it's a perfectly acceptable one if it's the way you like it.