Post/Author/DateTime	Post
smudo 04-01-06, 02:12 AM	I'm DMing a party that just got through with their very first dungeon and are just about to begin their second. In between the two, the party (a paladin, sorcerer and druid) stopped at a local town. While at the town, the paladin bought a horse. She wants to ride it and use it to fight in their next adventure. I'm fine with that, except the next adventure takes place in a giant tomb. Now I'm faced with a dilemma. I was going to be logical and realistic: It's a horse, in a dank, shadowy stone tomb. The sound of the hooves is going to let the enemies know their coming, give them a chance to hide, and scare the horse. The horse might rear up and there's a good chance the paladin will fall and hurt herself. The way I see it, the game's all about choices and consequences: She chose to bring the horse into the tomb, the consequence is that all the enemies know she's coming. I described this scenario to my sister and asked her (just to have a neutral opinion of someone who's not even playing) if I should do it or not, and she said it sounded like I was almost punishing the paladin for buying a horse and bringing it into the tomb. If it seems like that to the other players, they may get upset and not want to play anymore. So, what do you guys think? I haven't been a DM for very long, and this is one of the first major snags I've come up against. I think I've already elminated the 'fight with the horse problem' (it's only a light horse, nor a warhorse. Light horses can't fight....right?).
DaMullet 04-01-06, 02:21 AM	Light horses have VERY weak attacks (under Animal in the MM). I would rule that any Paladin stupid enough to bring a ****ing HORSE into a dungeon deserves to lose a surprise round against anything. Dungeons are echoey. That's why they invented a Move Silently check.
Mitchell 04-01-06, 02:34 AM	Have you considered holding off on the giant tomb and running an overland adventure of some sort? Maybe the tomb is in some perilous forest or something. They can have some fun getting to the tomb, allowing the druid to use their outdoor advantage and letting the paladin play the traditional knight in shining armor... Horse included. It just seems to me that two of the three have ideas to play outside (with the third being suitable indoors or out), while you want to stick them indoors. Hey, it's going to happen. If you feel that you must run the giant tomb adventure, then go for it. The horse may be skittish about entering (hint one), play up the echo of it's hooves (hint two), and see what happens. Just do the paladin a favor and don't kill the horse if they decide to tie it up outside. :)
rockondon 04-01-06, 02:41 AM	I would never bring a horse into a dungeon. I'd park it in the safest nearby place I could find. If the character insists on bringing it into the dungeon I would either put in an obstacle that the horse can't overcome or put them in a narrow hallway and send something at the pc's that they'll have to turn and run from - pity that the passage is too narrow for the horse to turn around....
allenchan 04-01-06, 02:43 AM	Odds are, your Paladin PC will be louder then the horse in question, that doesnt seem like an issue. Secondly, read the handle animal skill. Figure out what tricks it does/doesnt know. ie; does it even know how to fight? Does your Pally have enough handle animal to "Push" it to go into a tomb? Now, apparently your party is low level (otherwise the paladin would simply summon a mount, a far better one, at that). Overall, its a very bad idea, and you should make it clear to the Paladin PC
Rylen 04-01-06, 03:02 AM	Michell's idea is excellent. As a DM, -part- of your responsibility is to ensure the players have fun. Thats why we play role-playing games. Although I admit that we have most fun when we are given challenges and overcome them through wise choices (i.e. not bringing a horse into a tomb), you can still alter your game plan slightly to give the players a chance to play what they want. In this case, it's a scene or two of the Holy Warrior charging into battle on a horse. So, make the journey to the tomb one that includes a few orc raids on a plain, where a paladin on a mount is ideal. After they reach the tomb, the player will likely be satisfied and be smart enough to leave the horse behind and continue on foot.
Callista 04-01-06, 03:10 AM	Don't kill the horse out of the blue... give the players hints that the horse is giving away their presence and that it doesn't want to go into the tomb. And yes, I second the idea that if they do the smart thing and leave it tied up, the horse should not be killed by a Random Wandering Monster. Think of it this way: If the player weren't thinking in character, he wouldn't have bought the horse. You want him to think in character; therefore you won't smack him in the face (figuratively) as a result of his doing so. I also like the idea of an outdoor adventure. Remember that bandits, etc., will probably focus on the riders, not their mounts; while beasts (wolves, etc.) will take down the smallest (and seemingly weakest) opponents first. This may mean that the horse is actually pretty safe... though it will probably try to throw its rider and bolt the second it gets into a combat situation--especially if it's with something like a wolf! (Enter the second part of the adventure: Using the Druid's skills, the party must find a lost horse... oh, this is also a good way to have them dramatically stumble onto the hidden entrance of your tomb. Especially effective if it's a caved-in passageway--treat as a pit--that someone suddenly disappears into!)
Strife_Aileron 04-01-06, 03:25 AM	I have to agree with what Mitchell suggested. Use your tomb adventure if you really want, but also make sure you have an outdoors adventure leading up to it. After all, you have someone playing a druid, let them shine a little as well. And it will also let your paladin have fun with her horse. Now, I realize that druids aren't just for outdoor aventures, but you can help make it about showcasing what the druid can do with their class abilites and skills. That being said, I'd suggest you make it a point to showcase each of the PCs classes every once in a while. This is a very good general adventure idea and not just for this particular case, by the by. And like someone else said, the paladin can just tie the horse up outside (and don't penalize them for doing that, please. If you have to, give her your written promise that you won't hose her like that). Basically, what I'm saying, is that you have to model your game around the desires of your players. Oh, don't make the game easy for them or anything, but try to run a game that they will enjoy participating in. If that means you have to accommodate a paladin and her horse, then you've got to accommodate a paladin and her horse. Ultimately, I think you should talk to your players and find out what types of adventures they would like you to run. Aboveground or Underground. Urban or Rural. Social or Martial. And others that I can't think of at the moment. Basically, get a rough idea of what they would like, and then you can tailor adventures to what interests them. The down side is that it can mess up what plans you've got for the campaign. The up side is that they will be much more interested in the campaign, and will enjoy it more. I think the up side vastly outweighs the down side..... And a little bit of advice for a (relatively) new DM: just because you want to run an underground dungeon crawl, doesn't mean your players want you to run an underground dungeon crawl.
pres_man 04-01-06, 08:32 AM	This can be handled in a number of ways, such as following the rules on handle animal, ride, and squeezing. Let me ask you this, are characters never suppose to get mounts? I mean if they enter some kind of dungeon setting are they always suppose to leave their mounts behind (to be killed since they are tied up and can't get away from predators, starve to death, die of dehydration)? If a paladin shouldn't have a mount before they call their own, how do they develop their ride skill? Mounted combat feats? Really, any tunnel your typical medium sized creature could walk in, could also allow a horse to squeeze through. I would probably suggest the paladin buy a mule for the time being (less likely to be nervous in a dungeon), which would work good for a pack animal once the paladin can call their own warhorse. As for a light horse not being trained for combat, well their are heavy warhorses, light warhorse, heavy horses, and light horses. Heavy and light warhorses are breed and trained for combat by default. Heavy and light horses are work horses and not trained for combat by default, though they could be later (see handle animal skill).
smudo 04-01-06, 09:10 AM	That whole 'outdoors leading up to the tomb' thing actually a really good idea. I've got a spare outdoors map I've been aching to use, and the druid and paladin would really enjoy that. I can turn it into a pretty fun adventure-within-an-adventure. I like that finding the entrance idea too. I just re-read the notes I made for the dungeon, and I don't really explain how the players find the tomb. They just KNOW it's there and somehow enter it. As for the horse and the tomb, if the paladin realizes that taking a horse into a tomb may not be a good idea and ties it up outside, the horse won't get killed off by some random monster. I agree, that's just a little too cruel for my liking. If she does want to still bring the horse into the tomb, I'm not going to flat outright tell her she can't do that, but I will point out the sound of the hooves and the horse being nervous. All in all this will be a great learning experience for the players.
VrecknidjX 04-01-06, 09:36 AM	Your latest post is the one I'm replying to. The druid and the paladin's horse will probably get along just fine over the course of this overland adventure. The paladin might even secretly be a little jealous that the druid has such a good relationship with the horse. Then, as they approach the tomb, have the horse refuse to enter if the paladin tries to go in with the horse. Horses aren't dumb, they just don't speak common very well. Horses (and lots of other animals) have to learn by repeated experience that things like tunnels going under roads can be safe. So, the druid (who is both an expert on natural things, and close to the horse) can then explain to the paladin that the horse is scared of going in, and that everyone would be better off if the horse stayed outside. If the paladin was being particularly thick-headed and really kept pushing to go in, you could hint to the druid's player that the druid finds it a sacrilege against nature to force an innocent natural creature like a horse to go into a tomb, which could, in fact, be filled with undead--the very antithesis of nature. The druid could put up an equal stink and refuse to go in with the paladin if the paladin were to so recklessly risk the life of the horse this way. Just a thought. Dave
Ysera_the_destroyer 04-01-06, 12:45 PM	once a realy *****y and emo player in a campaign I played wanted to bring his camel animal companion into a dungeon and the dm wouldn't let him so he quit the campaign. It was really funny his reaction.
ashcat_lt 04-01-06, 12:45 PM	First off, make sure the paladin is paying big money for a good horse. A fully outfitted palading will weight too much for a light horse, and would look rather silly. Make her buy a heavy warhorse trained for battle, then let her do what she wants with it. A well trained horse with a competent handler will not have any more problem in a dungeon than anywhere else. This is a fantasy setting and I think it's safe to assume that some people actually train horses for exactly this sort of thing. Just make sure she pays (in gold) for it. On the note of leaving it outside, I've lost all kinds of horses during my career. My last group and I considered horses to be expendable, like iron rations. If you want the horse to be standing outside the dungeon when you come back out, you've got to leave someone behind to take care of it. Unless the area is crawling with really nasty critters it could be something as simple as the paladin's teenage squire who feeds and waters the thing, or follows it around while it's hobbled for grazing, and then ties it up and builds a fire nearby when night comes. Between fire, hooves, and man scent, no natural animal will mess with them. Tied up on it's own the horse will either: a- starve when it's eaten everything it can reach b- break it's tether and wander off to find fresh grazing c- be a sitting duck for wolf packs, hunting cats, etc.
The Abominable Darkling 04-01-06, 12:58 PM	(it's only a light horse, nor a warhorse. Light horses can't fight....right?). You might find the rules helpful in adjudicating this situation: Light horses, ponies, and heavy horses, however, are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a horse. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full round action and you can’t do anything else until your next turn. Also, I'd point out that horses aren't any worse at moving silently than player characters. In fact, they're quite a bit better than most. Finally, dungeon monsters generally know that the players are coming anyway for several reasons: (1) the players generally carry a light source, (2) most of the players are terrible at making Move Silently checks, and (3) the PCs frequently stop to fight or converse (both of which are very easy to hear).
Rylen 04-02-06, 10:19 PM	Tied up on it's own the horse will either: a- starve when it's eaten everything it can reach b- break it's tether and wander off to find fresh grazing c- be a sitting duck for wolf packs, hunting cats, etc. This is a bit harsh. The horse can survive several -days- outside tied up, especially if it's tied up with plenty of slack and near a stream. And the chances of a wolf-pack eating it in the 12 to 24 hours the party is inside the tomb is low enough that it makes plenty sense to say "the horse survived outside." After all, it's getting bogged down in the petty details like wandering wolf-packs that will push the paladin to taking the horse inside the tomb with her, which is exactly what we're trying to avoid.
Mobar2006 04-03-06, 01:31 AM	This is a bit harsh. The horse can survive several -days- outside tied up, especially if it's tied up with plenty of slack and near a stream. And the chances of a wolf-pack eating it in the 12 to 24 hours the party is inside the tomb is low enough that it makes plenty sense to say "the horse survived outside." After all, it's getting bogged down in the petty details like wandering wolf-packs that will push the paladin to taking the horse inside the tomb with her, which is exactly what we're trying to avoid. Here's a thought, if you haven't thought about who built the tomb, what if its a tomb built by centaurs? Then it would be built to accomadate with ease an animal as big if not bigger than a clydesdale. Sounds like you've got a good group and a good start on your DMing career. Kudos!
Varia 04-03-06, 01:35 AM	I wouldnt eat the horse the first time, but it should happen sometime if they keep tethering unguarded mounts outside strange dungeons. Be sure to show the animals distress when the players return if it was left without proper food or water, as a hint. And in a level or 2, when the horse is not a big financial loss, maybe eat it if its still being left unguarded and unhidden. Or stolen. After all, while its (probably) not an issue outside a crypt, with larger dungeons with living residents there should be some traffic in and out, and a returning occupant might well find and steal an unattended, unconcealed horse while the group is inside causing trouble. You can even annoy the paladin later on by having someone ride by on the stolen horse 6 months later for a bit of roleplaying fun, especially if the new owner bought it legitimately, and the paladin cant prove to a court that it was stolen from him. *Hugs* Varia
Neeek 04-03-06, 02:19 AM	I would recommend you point out to your player that, in the future, if she wants to fight mounted in dungeons, that she be a halfling and ride a dog. As the halfling/dog combo is small enough to go anywhere a human can, and makes as little noise as said humans, they can more easily travel through such terrain. For the moment, just inform the player of the consequences of pursuing such an action, straight up.
Caligula 04-03-06, 09:24 AM	Smudo, I think you are being very realistic and that you are being a very good DM! Being a good DM does not mean you always have to make your players happy! Being a good DM means you have to be fair! You are 100% spot on when you say that roleplaying is about making decisions and facing the consequences for those decisions. The player in this case, that chooses to bring the horse inside the tomb obviously has made a very stupid decision. Your interpretation that the horse will make lots of noise and get scared for creatures inside the tomb is correct. However, be sure to make it clear to the player. Tell him that the sound of the horses hooves against the stone floor echoes loudly. Tell him that he has problems holding the horse still, that the horse seems extremely nervous. Have him making dex-checks to control the horse when they enter combat, making him loose his action the first round, or loose the horse! Listen to your intuition more often because your judgement in this case was excellent!
Epicweaver 04-03-06, 09:42 AM	My 11th level group have owned and lost at least a hundred horses of varying sorts over the course of their careers.... Horses just become collateral damage 6th+... unless it's a paladin mount anyways. I figure you should run the tomb, but give them an encounter or two on the way so the paladin can see how the mount works. The paladin must then decide whether to bring it into the tomb or not.
Witch 04-03-06, 09:51 AM	Being a good DM does not mean you always have to make your players happy! Being a good DM means you have to be fair! Actually it's a balance between the two :)
OravennasBrother 04-03-06, 11:32 AM	Horses can be resistant to entering a cave, so just have the animal balk at the entrance. Ask the Paladin for an Easy (5 TN) Handle Animal Check and inform him that his character knows that taking a horse underground is liely to result in a broken leg for said hore - if he can even convince it to enter a dark cavern. Even if the PLayer doesn't know any better his character will.
KublaiKhan 04-03-06, 11:50 AM	Y'all are forgetting one thing what with this "must leave horse outside to get eaten" business: Hirelings. This is the sorta thing they're made for--to sit out in the woods and take care of horses, while the big-shot adventurer types go inside to get their rear-ends kicked. If they've left town already, have 'em meet some guy on the road who's "done this before" for "another buncha crazy adventuring types" who "tipped well" because the horses "were in even better condition--I even cured one of 'em of spavins!" Have the NPC tell 'em right out that horses don't like going into dungeons, and it's near impossible to keep 'em from getting spooked in there. Then the PCs will have to either be idiots, or get a clue. Meanwhile, the paladin type can use his horse on the way to the dungeon, to take care of the random monster battles.
anders 04-03-06, 12:45 PM	Just make the entrance and the corridors medium sized (5x5 squares). The horse is large (10x10) Just point out the fact that in order for the horse to enter, it would have to squeeze -- something which prolly is very unconfortable. (also invokes combat and movement penalties) And a horse does not make more sound than a human according to the rules. Its all about the move silently roll, and a horse has above average dexterity. The paladin on the other hand would prolly have armour check penalties from heavy armour etc. I'd say let the player leave the horsie outside. But expect, that once the paladin DO gte his paladin mount, he would want to bring it anywhere. Since the mount is like half the pallys combat strength anyway.
ashcat_lt 04-03-06, 01:30 PM	Y'all are forgetting one thing what with this "must leave horse outside to get eaten" business: Hirelings. I'm pretty sure that's pretty close to what I said. I also said that it should be possible to find a horse which has been trained for combat and underground/indoor maneuvering. Possible doesn't mean easy or cheap, but it avoids the whole question of leaving the thing outside. An average human paladin in anything heavier than chainmail with a shield, weapons and other gear will be too heavy for anything less than a heavy warhorse. If it's a female pally she might be able to just barely come in under the max light load for a light warhorse, but not if she wants to put barding on the horse (which should be a priority). I figure if he's paying 400gp for a horse, it really had ought to be fairly well trained. Just make sure it's got the right tricks, and you're good to go. Slight tangent now: I've gone and done the math, and it looks like our pally will be too heavy even for a heavy warhorse if he wants to put chainmail barding on the thing. 180(pally naked)+40(pally chain)+80(horse chain)=300=heavy warhorse max light load. This is before even a saddle, let alone weapons and other gear! Somehow this doesn't seem quite right to me. I guess you'll have to hold the saddle on with a belt of strength.
pres_man 04-03-06, 02:12 PM	Being a good DM does not mean you always have to make your players happy! Being a good DM means you have to be fair! Indeed and being fair usually means following the rules as written fairly closely. Let us look at a warhorse (light or heavy), being a warhorse they will have been trained with combat riding. Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. ... Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose. Now what do these tricks allow, specificly come and heel? Come (DC 15): The animal comes to you, even if it normally would not do so. Heel (DC 15): The animal follows you closely, even to places where it normally wouldn’t go. So it looks like your typical warhorse would still go into a tomb, having been trained to follow, even into places a normal horse wouldn't go. There does not seem to be any reason if one wanted to be a "fair" DM to not allow PCs to bring the mounts into a tomb. And as pointed out, using the move silently correctly this would not make it any more likely to be detected then just having your typical paladin along. Really, I fail to see how it is a stupid decision by the PCs. A fair DM would follow the rules, that is a warhorse would go into a tomb if commanded to. A warhorse would be no more likely to give away the party's presense then anyone else without ranks in move silently. A large creature having to defend and fight in 5' wide passage way would have to squeeze and thus would take penalties to its AC and attacks. The ride skill should be used to control a mount in combat (assuming the rider is mounted).
Kevtar 04-03-06, 03:09 PM	That's the problem with paladins and mounted characters in general: I WANNA USE MY HORSE! Imagine the difficulties with riding a horse, particularly charging with a horse in a dungeon. How high are the ceilings? How wide are the hallways? What are the dimensions of the rooms? A 20x20' room sounds like a large room until you stick a horse that is 16 Hands high and nearly 1000Kg (granted, that's a LARGE horse, but we're talking High Fantasy here!) Now, get that horse to charge and turn in that room. Shoot, see if the paladin doesn't mash his noggin against the ceiling when he's on top of his horse! Perhaps simply listing the physical implausibilites about using a horse in a dungeon will be enough to convince the player that it's not going to work. However, that said, there should definitely be some other instances where using a horse is plausible, in fact, maybe you should have an encounter where a horse is absolutely necessary! I agree with the previous suggestions that it's really all about having fun, but have fun that makes sense.