Am I being unfair? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I being unfair? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
molten_dragon
02-10-08, 05:56 PM One of my players is playing the shifter-variant druid from the PHBII. He said he was interested in taking the Nature's warrior prestige class (gives bonuses any time you wildshape) from Complete Warrior. I looked it over and told him he couldn't, because it requires wild shape as a prerequisite, and he didn't have wild shape. He still wanted to take it, and argued that shifting was almost the same thing, so he should still be allowed. I considered it, but I thought it would be too powerful, since wild shape is limited to a certain number of times per day, whereas the shifting ability is at will, and since the prestige class was balanced with a limited number of uses of wild shape per day, it would be overpowered if he could gain the benefits at will. He was kind of upset by this, but didn't say much else about it. Do you think I'm being unfair not letting him take the class?
Escef
02-10-08, 06:02 PM Do you think I'm being unfair not letting him take the class?

Fair? Yes. However, It would have been better if you could have found a compromise; say, giving him the bonuses a number of times a day equal how often a normal druid would get them.
Etarnon
02-10-08, 09:14 PM it's your game.. As long as you are clear as to what is allowed and not, you are good. Players can bail as they wish upon the hearing of aforesaid rules, of course.

Good luck.
Turin
02-10-08, 09:44 PM Actually, I think that Nature's Warrior is balanced by uses/day only if you are using the normal Wild Shape rules -- remember that the standard Druid / Nature's Warrior can potentially still cast spells while shaped (via Natural Spell), whereas your Shifter Druid / Nature's Warrior cannot. I'd let him take it.
Vaelan
02-11-08, 01:16 AM I'd say it was fair as you listened to his concerns and attempted to make a reasonable decision. I wouldn't say that it was a good call, though.

I considered it, but I thought it would be too powerful, since wild shape is limited to a certain number of times per day, whereas the shifting ability is at will, and since the prestige class was balanced with a limited number of uses of wild shape per day, it would be overpowered if he could gain the benefits at will.
I wouldn't say that Wildshape is meaningfully limited at the levels required to take the prestige class. At level 7, a Druid can wildshape 3 times per day for 7 hours each time. That's 21 hours/day. At level 8, this jumps up to 24 hours/day, otherwise known as all day.

Since your reasoning hinges upon shifting being available more often and that really isn't the case, I'd say it is a bad call.
JancariusSeiryujinn
02-11-08, 01:43 AM I agree with your call. It says Wild Shape, not 'ability to alter form in any way'. If you were gonna let him take it, let anyone who can cast polymorph or shapechange take the class too.
PenderGrass
02-11-08, 02:04 AM He is asking for you to adjust the rules of a non-Core book so he can get what he wants?

You said "no?"

Is that "unfair?"

No.

Will he be able to take your decision without quitting?

If not, you may want to consider whether you want him to leave your game or not. Since he seems to be pretty accusatory towards you, it may not be a bad thing for your game to lose him.

Who knows? Maybe he will come to his senses when he sees you at least looked at a non-Core build and actually considered it. Really, you seemed to have been more than fair in the whole matter.

:dragon:
*****
Tedronai
02-11-08, 02:57 AM You're the DM. You can make any decision you want, and it can be argued that said decision is 'fair.'

This decision MIGHT have screwed over the player in question. It might have only been a minor inconvenience. It might also have saved said player from making a horrible decision, but that's just my opinion.

Was the decision to use the variant rather than the PHB version his, or yours?
How long has this character been in existence?

Did you suggest any alternatives to this route that the character might take to achieve a similar result?
molten_dragon
02-11-08, 06:03 AM The choice to take the variant was his, and right now he just hit 3rd level. I didn't suggest any similar choices to him, but the issue just came up yesterday, so I'll try to find some. It doesn't help that I'm not really sure what direction he wants to take the character in (not really sure he does either). He has come asking if he can take some variant rule or prestige class almost every session since he started. I think maybe I'll do what was suggested and let him take the class but only give him the special benefits a number of times per day that a druid could wildshape.
Tedronai
02-11-08, 07:56 AM The choice to take the variant was his, and right now he just hit 3rd level. I didn't suggest any similar choices to him, but the issue just came up yesterday, so I'll try to find some. It doesn't help that I'm not really sure what direction he wants to take the character in (not really sure he does either). He has come asking if he can take some variant rule or prestige class almost every session since he started. I think maybe I'll do what was suggested and let him take the class but only give him the special benefits a number of times per day that a druid could wildshape.

I suggest, rather, that you allow the benefits instead for the DURATION that a normal druid could wildshape into the appropriate form (some of the abilities require an 'elemental' form - I also suggest allowing his 'elemental' form to qualify for this), divisible as needed. So, he would have X hours/day of these abilities, rather than X opportunities to 'turn on' these abilities.
MrWildman
02-11-08, 07:06 PM So, let's see.

He chose the shifter variant. I assume he also gave up the animal companion?
He's interested in the Nature's Warrior PrC. It seems like a good fit,with mention of druids who spend "too much time" in non-human form in the opening paragraph. If he takes all 5 levels he can pick 3 abilities from a list of 10. Three of those abilities explicitly require "Form of. . . An elemental!" and could be dropped (or replaced, if you're feeling generous). So he might end up with a nice bonus to AC and natural attacks and some DR (for instance) when wearing an animal's form. Hardly unbalancing. Sure, call it Nature's Warrior (Shifter Variant) with the fiery and watery things replaced by boosts to perception and movement or something.

That being said. . .

If he's asking about variant rules "almost every session" then this is a pattern that you should discuss. Maybe he's entranced by novelty for it's own sake (the "Oooh, shiny!" syndrome). Or maybe his creativity is ignited by all that potential (in which case, hand him a DMG). Or, (cue ominous music) he's just one of those guys that are always springing stuff on you. I've given up on rational communication with those guys, in favor of simply throwing food at them.

Seriously, those guys never learn. They are an endless source of frustration.

"No. The frozen kingdom of Lorsia does not support a Ninja Class"
"So, this guy's an Aztec. And he can turn into a jaguar. And he wears full plate? Huh?"
"Explain to me again how "Waya-Hatha's Cruel Tommyhawk" can be used with Weapon Finesse and can out-damage a scythe?"

If he's one of the first two guys his eager imagination can be harnessed, channeled, directed (bwa-ha-ha). They can be an asset to any group.

But those guys? Life's too short.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
molten_dragon 02-10-08, 05:56 PM	One of my players is playing the shifter-variant druid from the PHBII. He said he was interested in taking the Nature's warrior prestige class (gives bonuses any time you wildshape) from Complete Warrior. I looked it over and told him he couldn't, because it requires wild shape as a prerequisite, and he didn't have wild shape. He still wanted to take it, and argued that shifting was almost the same thing, so he should still be allowed. I considered it, but I thought it would be too powerful, since wild shape is limited to a certain number of times per day, whereas the shifting ability is at will, and since the prestige class was balanced with a limited number of uses of wild shape per day, it would be overpowered if he could gain the benefits at will. He was kind of upset by this, but didn't say much else about it. Do you think I'm being unfair not letting him take the class?
Escef 02-10-08, 06:02 PM	Do you think I'm being unfair not letting him take the class? Fair? Yes. However, It would have been better if you could have found a compromise; say, giving him the bonuses a number of times a day equal how often a normal druid would get them.
Etarnon 02-10-08, 09:14 PM	it's your game.. As long as you are clear as to what is allowed and not, you are good. Players can bail as they wish upon the hearing of aforesaid rules, of course. Good luck.
Turin 02-10-08, 09:44 PM	Actually, I think that Nature's Warrior is balanced by uses/day only if you are using the normal Wild Shape rules -- remember that the standard Druid / Nature's Warrior can potentially still cast spells while shaped (via Natural Spell), whereas your Shifter Druid / Nature's Warrior cannot. I'd let him take it.
Vaelan 02-11-08, 01:16 AM	I'd say it was fair as you listened to his concerns and attempted to make a reasonable decision. I wouldn't say that it was a good call, though. I considered it, but I thought it would be too powerful, since wild shape is limited to a certain number of times per day, whereas the shifting ability is at will, and since the prestige class was balanced with a limited number of uses of wild shape per day, it would be overpowered if he could gain the benefits at will. I wouldn't say that Wildshape is meaningfully limited at the levels required to take the prestige class. At level 7, a Druid can wildshape 3 times per day for 7 hours each time. That's 21 hours/day. At level 8, this jumps up to 24 hours/day, otherwise known as all day. Since your reasoning hinges upon shifting being available more often and that really isn't the case, I'd say it is a bad call.
JancariusSeiryujinn 02-11-08, 01:43 AM	I agree with your call. It says Wild Shape, not 'ability to alter form in any way'. If you were gonna let him take it, let anyone who can cast polymorph or shapechange take the class too.
PenderGrass 02-11-08, 02:04 AM	He is asking for you to adjust the rules of a non-Core book so he can get what he wants? You said "no?" Is that "unfair?" No. Will he be able to take your decision without quitting? If not, you may want to consider whether you want him to leave your game or not. Since he seems to be pretty accusatory towards you, it may not be a bad thing for your game to lose him. Who knows? Maybe he will come to his senses when he sees you at least looked at a non-Core build and actually considered it. Really, you seemed to have been more than fair in the whole matter. :dragon: *****
Tedronai 02-11-08, 02:57 AM	You're the DM. You can make any decision you want, and it can be argued that said decision is 'fair.' This decision MIGHT have screwed over the player in question. It might have only been a minor inconvenience. It might also have saved said player from making a horrible decision, but that's just my opinion. Was the decision to use the variant rather than the PHB version his, or yours? How long has this character been in existence? Did you suggest any alternatives to this route that the character might take to achieve a similar result?
molten_dragon 02-11-08, 06:03 AM	The choice to take the variant was his, and right now he just hit 3rd level. I didn't suggest any similar choices to him, but the issue just came up yesterday, so I'll try to find some. It doesn't help that I'm not really sure what direction he wants to take the character in (not really sure he does either). He has come asking if he can take some variant rule or prestige class almost every session since he started. I think maybe I'll do what was suggested and let him take the class but only give him the special benefits a number of times per day that a druid could wildshape.
Tedronai 02-11-08, 07:56 AM	The choice to take the variant was his, and right now he just hit 3rd level. I didn't suggest any similar choices to him, but the issue just came up yesterday, so I'll try to find some. It doesn't help that I'm not really sure what direction he wants to take the character in (not really sure he does either). He has come asking if he can take some variant rule or prestige class almost every session since he started. I think maybe I'll do what was suggested and let him take the class but only give him the special benefits a number of times per day that a druid could wildshape. I suggest, rather, that you allow the benefits instead for the DURATION that a normal druid could wildshape into the appropriate form (some of the abilities require an 'elemental' form - I also suggest allowing his 'elemental' form to qualify for this), divisible as needed. So, he would have X hours/day of these abilities, rather than X opportunities to 'turn on' these abilities.
MrWildman 02-11-08, 07:06 PM	So, let's see. He chose the shifter variant. I assume he also gave up the animal companion? He's interested in the Nature's Warrior PrC. It seems like a good fit,with mention of druids who spend "too much time" in non-human form in the opening paragraph. If he takes all 5 levels he can pick 3 abilities from a list of 10. Three of those abilities explicitly require "Form of. . . An elemental!" and could be dropped (or replaced, if you're feeling generous). So he might end up with a nice bonus to AC and natural attacks and some DR (for instance) when wearing an animal's form. Hardly unbalancing. Sure, call it Nature's Warrior (Shifter Variant) with the fiery and watery things replaced by boosts to perception and movement or something. That being said. . . If he's asking about variant rules "almost every session" then this is a pattern that you should discuss. Maybe he's entranced by novelty for it's own sake (the "Oooh, shiny!" syndrome). Or maybe his creativity is ignited by all that potential (in which case, hand him a DMG). Or, (cue ominous music) he's just one of those guys that are always springing stuff on you. I've given up on rational communication with those guys, in favor of simply throwing food at them. Seriously, those guys never learn. They are an endless source of frustration. "No. The frozen kingdom of Lorsia does not support a Ninja Class" "So, this guy's an Aztec. And he can turn into a jaguar. And he wears full plate? Huh?" "Explain to me again how "Waya-Hatha's Cruel Tommyhawk" can be used with Weapon Finesse and can out-damage a scythe?" If he's one of the first two guys his eager imagination can be harnessed, channeled, directed (bwa-ha-ha). They can be an asset to any group. But those guys? Life's too short.