Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Han Duo 06-19-06, 11:05 AM	I placed my group (four level 5 PCs) in a scenario where they had to go against a room with three wizard's apprentices, each level 6 (sitting behind desks studying). They handled the situation by having two PCs sneak up to two of the wizards, and then surprise and sneak attacking them. One died instantly, the other was reduced to 3 hits. Then the rest of the group stormed in, and engaged the third wizard. The two wizards that were left attempted to cast a spell (both a summoning spell), but that provoked attacks of opportunity. The 3 hit point wizard was killed because of this, the one remaining wizard was almost killed, but failed a concentration skill check. The next round the group put an end to the last wizard. So the whole action took about three rounds, and the wizards were not able to cast a single spell between them. Am I playing them wrong? Am I overlooking a way to quicker cast spells, or to cast them without provoking an attack of opprtunity? How would you have played the wizards?
sorvikcorsair 06-19-06, 11:11 AM	It sounds as if the 3 enemy wizards (just assuming) were completly oblivious to the PCs presence. Can you discribe the situation a bit more that led to the wizards? Ie. dungeon, tower, keep, long adventure, etc.
CaviosDaryll 06-19-06, 11:11 AM	If you wanted them to cast quicker spells, you could have given them the feat Quicken Spell (assuming the spell did not go above their maximum casting ability from the bonuses).
Steel Cobra 06-19-06, 11:11 AM	As for what happend, I kinda expected that. But why didn't he just make a touch attack aginst the party member. Also you prepared for this all wrong, wizards are people that you need in the back with some wall of people to stop the intruders from coming and killing them. The MMORPG term is "Glass cannons" and I think that works in more then one sence. Just remember that, and you'll be fine.
Illion the Red 06-19-06, 11:18 AM	Well, sneak attacking a wizard is probably the best way to take one out. Give your players a nod on that one. That should have been a surprise round - only allowing one standard action per individual which means that they should have made the choice between moving or attacking. The two rogues (assumtion is that their move silently and hide rolls beat the wizards' listen and spot rolls in order for them to get in place) had moved prior to the surprise round and should have been able to get in a single sneak attack each. At this point initiative should have been rolled. This is where it is super-dangerous for the wizards because if they lose inititive, they are likely dead. The two remaining wizards should have made 5-foot steps to get out of the threatened area of the rogues and cast their spells without provoking attacks of opportunity. If the PCs won initiative, the wizards would have had little chance of surviving, no matter how you played them. Now the bigger question is this: Why were three sixth-level wizards just sitting in the room studying without any sort of magical protection? Were they in a situation in which they would never expect an attack?
Han Duo 06-19-06, 11:22 AM	It sounds as if the 3 enemy wizards (just assuming) were completly oblivious to the PCs presence. Can you discribe the situation a bit more that led to the wizards? Ie. dungeon, tower, keep, long adventure, etc. It was a spacious room in the third level of a dungeon. The first two levels are used by the bad guys, and the third and fourth level of the dungeon are the property of a half fiend wizard and his apprentices. Those levels are supposed to be closed to anyone (even the other bad guys), so the wizards can study without being bothered. Of course the PCs found their way into those levels, and stumbled upon the study room and the apprentices (who only get a visitor once every year or so). So the wizards were quite oblivious to their presence. If you wanted them to cast quicker spells, you could have given them the feat Quicken Spell (assuming the spell did not go above their maximum casting ability from the bonuses). A quickened spell is 4 levels higher if I remember correctly, so the wizards would be unable to cast anything that was quickened (they are class level 6 wizards). Also you prepared for this all wrong, wizards are people that you need in the back with some wall of people to stop the intruders from coming and killing them. The MMORPG term is "Glass cannons" and I think that works in more then one sence. I think you are about right. Perhaps I was expecting that three wizards could put up more of a fight :)
Han Duo 06-19-06, 11:27 AM	The two remaining wizards should have made 5-foot steps to get out of the threatened area of the rogues and cast their spells without provoking attacks of opportunity. This is one of the things I did wrong :) If the PCs won initiative, the wizards would have had little chance of surviving, no matter how you played them. The PCs did indeed win initiative (only one of them was later then the (remaining) wizards). Why were three sixth-level wizards just sitting in the room studying without any sort of magical protection? Were they in a situation in which they would never expect an attack? They did not expect an attack, but they probably would have had some form of magical protection. What would you suggest? I am still a newbie DM when it comes to DMing wizards, so don't hold back with your suggestions :D
2nd Ed Paladin 06-19-06, 11:36 AM	couple things: If the wizards should have known the PCs were in the area they would not have been studying as they were. If they didn't know, that is the element of surprise. Remember to cast defensively a level 6 wizard should have at least a modifier of 10 against DC of 15. This way wizards won't be subject to AOOs. The summon spells have a full round casting time. Even if they manage to cast it they will likely be dead by the next round. I lwould have used disabling type spells like hold person or charm person if memorized. Anyway, live and learn
Illion the Red 06-19-06, 11:42 AM	When I run wizards hiding in a dungeon of some sort, they tend to set up simple things such as alarm spells as a matter of course. I also have a tendency to have them realize their situation. In your case, the one remaining wizard would have made a sense motive check to see if surrender was an option. If not, then he would take as many down with him as possible...the ground-zero fireball is a common way to do this.
Han Duo 06-19-06, 11:44 AM	Remember to cast defensively a level 6 wizard should have at least a modifier of 10 against DC of 15. This way wizards won't be subject to AOOs. Could you elaborate a little bit? A modifier in what exactly? The summon spells have a full round casting time. Even if they manage to cast it they will likely be dead by the next round. I lwould have used disabling type spells like hold person or charm person if memorized. Didn't even think about that. Just assumed that every spell had a casting time of one round (probably played too many other RPGs before I switched to DnD). Definitely have to think about that next time.
The man they call Boxhead 06-19-06, 11:46 AM	Yep, by the RAW a wizard can take a 5 foot step and avoid attacks of oppertunity. I've houseruled against it personally, but they can always cast defensively, DC 15+spell level. Combat Casting is a great feat, and with max ranks in Concentration (also a good idea, usually), you're looking at a bonus of 13+CON Mod, which really ought to succeed pretty often.
Emjaysmash 06-19-06, 11:48 AM	The wizards are in this enclosed room for a long time right? and no-one from the outside (even their villian allies) are allowed to come in, 'cept once or twice a year, right? Should of just had an alarm spell cast on the door, or area around it. then the Wizards could be prepared. well thats my 2 cents.
Han Duo 06-19-06, 11:49 AM	When I run wizards hiding in a dungeon of some sort, they tend to set up simple things such as alarm spells as a matter of course. I also have a tendency to have them realize their situation. The alarm spell will definitely be set in the next room full of wizards :) In your case, the one remaining wizard would have made a sense motive check to see if surrender was an option. If not, then he would take as many down with him as possible...the ground-zero fireball is a common way to do this. Next wizard will beg for his life... but will probably only get his head severed by the PCs (the bloodthirsty bunch they are).
Illion the Red 06-19-06, 11:51 AM	Next wizard will beg for his life... but will probably only get his head severed by the PCs (the bloodthirsty bunch they are). Have the wizard ready an action to defensively cast the fireball if attacked as he begs for his life.
Pegasos989 06-19-06, 11:52 AM	I would see situation like this: 2 wizards down almost immdiately -> the third one surrenders. If the intruders have gone through several levels of guards, killed two equal skilled guys in a few seconds, I would not see situation as something that I would try to fight. Even if they might not accept it, it is better than summoning one CR 3 creature. That said, if they would fight, 5 foot step before casting(or defensive casting if no space available). I would propably have him cast invisibility as the first spell. Then trying to escape a few dozen feat and fireball them.
runestar 06-19-06, 11:52 AM	At 6th lv, mage armour lasts for 6 hours. I think it is fair to assume that the wizards can keep them up for a good part of the day, so maybe assume that they are up at all times? :P As mentioned earlier, 5-ft steps or casting defensively can help prevent AoOs and vastly increase your chances of getting a spell off. They will have 9 ranks in concentration, assume con14, either skill focus: con or combat casting against a dc18 con check for a 3rd lv spell... :) It's not really that hard. Next is their spell selection. When faced against so many foes, their 1st spell will probably be one that can affect as many foes as possible. Summon monster is generally a poor choice since the fighter can off it and the rest of the party just closes in. Mass-affect spells like suggestion/fireball work well. Alternatively, they might resort to spells like invis which allow them to escape, regroup and coordinate their attacks. Also, you could have had the room warded against intruders, maybe with the humble alarm spell, or have their familiars keep watch for them so they can study without fear. :P
2nd Ed Paladin 06-19-06, 11:57 AM	Could you elaborate a little bit? A modifier in what exactly? Didn't even think about that. Just assumed that every spell had a casting time of one round (probably played too many other RPGs before I switched to DnD). Definitely have to think about that next time. Sorry, i'll explain a little more. As the above poster mentioned the action to cast defensively has a DC of 15. Succeeding means you don't provoke an AOO. If you fail you lose the spell. The check made is a concentration check so: lvl 6 wiz has a max skill point of 9 and I assumed 1 point from CON, therefore a total concentration modifier of 10. If the caster takes combat casting it would add 4 while casting defensively. Another option is skill focus concentration, which adds 3 ranks to the concentration skill. EDIT: Assuming a wizard has taken one of these feats defensive casting becomes automatic by level 7 or level 8, assuming no CON modifier. Also, as mentioned above, taking a 5ft step away, if possible, before casting can avoid AOOs.
Pegasos989 06-19-06, 12:05 PM	Yep, by the RAW a wizard can take a 5 foot step and avoid attacks of oppertunity. I've houseruled against it personally, but they can always cast defensively, DC 15+spell level. Combat Casting is a great feat, and with max ranks in Concentration (also a good idea, usually), you're looking at a bonus of 13+CON Mod, which really ought to succeed pretty often. Have you also houseruled that archers can't take 5 ft steps before shooting, if melee guys are nearby? It seems quite unfair to disallow 5ft. steps
Illion the Red 06-19-06, 12:11 PM	Have you also houseruled that archers can't take 5 ft steps before shooting, if melee guys are nearby? It seems quite unfair to disallow 5ft. steps I agree that is sounds pretty rough for anyone who isn't primarily focused on melee. If I wanted to (and I REALLY don't) nerf the 5' step, I'd make it a 5' leap requiring a DC 10+ terrain modifiers check against either Jump, Tumble, or maybe even Balance.
The man they call Boxhead 06-19-06, 12:22 PM	Have you also houseruled that archers can't take 5 ft steps before shooting, if melee guys are nearby? It seems quite unfair to disallow 5ft. steps Yep, it seemed stupid to me that whenever a spellcaster or archer wants to avoid an attack of opportunity they can just step out of the way. It makes concentration checks something that actually gets used, as well as forcing ranged attackers to worry about what they're doing more of the time. I base attacks of opportunity off of whatever action people have chosen to do in a round, rather than the particular 5 foot square they happen to be in when they do it. It makes combat something more of a simultaneous affair.
Pegasos989 06-19-06, 12:46 PM	Yep, it seemed stupid to me that whenever a spellcaster or archer wants to avoid an attack of opportunity they can just step out of the way. It makes concentration checks something that actually gets used, as well as forcing ranged attackers to worry about what they're doing more of the time. I base attacks of opportunity off of whatever action people have chosen to do in a round, rather than the particular 5 foot square they happen to be in when they do it. It makes combat something more of a simultaneous affair. I can see your logic here. I still disagree as I think that this hurts especially low-level spellcasters too much. Also, I find it adds a small tactical aspect when melee characters try to postion themselve so that the wizard can't leave threatened are with 5 foot step and the wizard tries to position himself so that he can. But well... With that explanation, I no longer think that this houserule is completely ****** ** ***** ** *** *** carrot. (you can try to imagine what there is meant to read, I have no idea!)
Steidas 06-19-06, 01:39 PM	I hoped you also nerfed the 5 step for fighters then. Than I HOPE they don't fight too much >LARGE creatures. BTT, arcane lock the door or something. Have an alarm there, a little bell. I dunno. Isn't the door closed or anything? When mages are cornered, they USUALLY run. If they don't, it's because two can fireball and the third one can teleport all three outta there.
The man they call Boxhead 06-19-06, 01:39 PM	I can see your logic here. I still disagree as I think that this hurts especially low-level spellcasters too much. Also, I find it adds a small tactical aspect when melee characters try to postion themselve so that the wizard can't leave threatened are with 5 foot step and the wizard tries to position himself so that he can. But well... With that explanation, I no longer think that this houserule is completely ****** ** ***** ** *** *** carrot. (you can try to imagine what there is meant to read, I have no idea!) Fair enough, I find that it adds a different level of tactics as spellcasters have to use allies and try to find places to cast from where they won't provoke an attack of opportunity (or they make a concentration check). Different flavour, but it makes more sense to me as I've never really imagined any spell taking less than 6 seconds to cast, so you start waving your arms as you move into position. By the same token archers start shooting as they back off, the 5' step being done as they shoot, rather than before.
Finlos 06-19-06, 01:54 PM	Yep, it seemed stupid to me that whenever a spellcaster or archer wants to avoid an attack of opportunity they can just step out of the way. It makes concentration checks something that actually gets used, as well as forcing ranged attackers to worry about what they're doing more of the time. I base attacks of opportunity off of whatever action people have chosen to do in a round, rather than the particular 5 foot square they happen to be in when they do it. It makes combat something more of a simultaneous affair. This might be something you're not aware of but from d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm), "You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round." (Page 160 of the PHB). Finlos
Bruunwald 06-19-06, 02:22 PM	Part of the reason your wizards were oblivious was that the party successfully snuck up on them. So that's actually fine, you didn't do anything wrong. The party just got lucky in that sense. Things you could have done differently for a more satisfying encounter might be: 1. Provide the apprentices with wands or other devices for a quick retaliatory attack. 2. Create a secret passage to be used for quick getaways (perhaps one of the apprentices could have ducked out real quickly, to summon more help). 3. Don't cast summoning spells right away, since they take a round to cast. As for buffing the apprentices, this is the downside to being caught completely unawares. No time for buffing. Of course, you make much more of your NPCs' resources when you are able to see the party coming, and prepare them with spells and what-not. So, when plausible, add an alarm of some kind somewhere, so that your NPCs will be better able to react. Otherwise, don't worry about it. Sometimes sneaking up works. Just make sure the BBEG wizard attempts the appropriate level of rage-induced revenge. --EDIT-- Ooh! I just caught the bit about forgetting the five-foot-steps.
The man they call Boxhead 06-19-06, 04:00 PM	This might be something you're not aware of but from d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm), "You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round." (Page 160 of the PHB). Finlos Yep, and? If people want to ready an action, they have a great shot at disrupting spellcasting. I still feel that it's more important what you are doing in a round than which square you happen to be in. Just my opinion.
Finlos 06-19-06, 04:09 PM	Yep, and? If people want to ready an action, they have a great shot at disrupting spellcasting. I still feel that it's more important what you are doing in a round than which square you happen to be in. Just my opinion. The end result is pretty much the same -- a disrupted spell. Some people like to play 'by the grid' which would give ranged PCs / NPCs a distince advantage if the other guy takes a 5-foot step and gets a spell off because you can't retaliate. My point was basically to remind people that a 5-foot step can be part of a readied action should you (or anyone) be a 'by the grid' player. Finlos
Bruunwald 06-19-06, 04:30 PM	I think, if I understand him, that Boxhead is talking about what occupies your time in a round, versus your ability to take an AoO. In other words, maybe you're concentrating too hard on what you are doing to be allowed to divert your attention away. He does this because he sees the actions of Fighter A as being simultaneous in the round to the actions of Fighter B and Wizard C. If Fighter A is busy with a full round action against Fighter B, he probably is not going to be able to divide his attention to swiping at Wizard C. It's totally arbitrary on Boxhead's part, to determine if what Fighter A is doing occupies too much of his attention to divert, since Wizard C is acting at the exact same time he is. I actually agree, to a point. AoOs are, in my mind, one of the most dubious and tiring rules in d20. Everybody thinks they are entitled to one, all the time, and we are encouraged to play even mindless automatons as taking them. But, really, would a skeleton think that far ahead that it was on its ready against a wizard casting a spell? Would a golem? Personally, I don't think so. If I could, I would rule that to get a single AoO, you need a feat in the first place, called something like Quick Thinking, or whatever. Combat Reflexes would the second feat in the chain. Alas, I would have a mutiny on my hands, but I do dumb down creatures in the game that I don't think should be entitled to them, and I do remind my players sometimes that after their four-attack Full Round Attack option, plus five-foot-step, while they remain pressed on three sides by multiple-armed foes, it is only because I am a nice guy that I allow them to take a swing at someone leaving a square BEHIND THEM. I mean, come on, in that context, you can see how not everybody should always be entitled to a free attack.
FeceMan 06-19-06, 04:33 PM	Special You can use Concentration to cast a spell, use a spell-like ability, or use a skill defensively, so as to avoid attacks of opportunity altogether. This doesn’t apply to other actions that might provoke attacks of opportunity. The DC of the check is 15 (plus the spell’s level, if casting a spell or using a spell-like ability defensively). If the Concentration check succeeds, you may attempt the action normally without provoking any attacks of opportunity. A successful Concentration check still doesn’t allow you to take 10 on another check if you are in a stressful situation; you must make the check normally. If the Concentration check fails, the related action also automatically fails (with any appropriate ramifications), and the action is wasted, just as if your concentration had been disrupted by a distraction. A character with the Combat Casting feat gets a +4 bonus on Concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability while on the defensive or while grappling or pinned. SRD powers.
Wisedragon 06-20-06, 04:24 AM	The wizards should have prepared explosive runes that morning :D But summoning was a bad idea, I would have done a darkness spell than spammed them with fireballs, magic missles, etc.
sag3 06-20-06, 05:46 AM	Alarm spell on the door or arcane lock even a simple bell trap (think shop door) are easy ways to give your wizards a better chance. Summon taking a full round is a bad move. Casting on the defensive is important. Darkness, invisibility, mirror image, displacement are all good firsts giving you at least 50% miss chance to live out the other side of the next round. Five foot step and web could be enough to keep them safe to line up some other spells. Fear and confusion can deal with trouble some rogues and also trouble the rest of the party. Deep slumber is not a bad spell for mid level foes. The problem with using spell casters as the DM is you need to know spell casters. You need to really work out what they have planed for any trouble remember they are smart people. Use PCs for information about tactics you might use for NPC's. Next time have one of the evil guys run away and go bash on the door "we have trouble" sure, he might end up dead at the spell casters hands but your spell casters will be more spectacular. Dont make the same mistake with your high level spell caster. Remember scrolls can make for some nice ways slowing PCs down if you know they are coming a spell like grease or web doesnt need to be high level to let you line people up for other spells. Given the conditions after the rogues sneak attacks. Round one Wizard 1 (w1) Five foot step from the rogue casts deep slumber (lev 3) on two rogues on the defensive if needed. Wizard 2 (w2) Five foot step from rogue casts invisibility sphere if they are both sleeping. More defensive darkness (lev2). Consider blindness (lev 2) or if your going to a more offensive nature scorching ray (lev2) depending on flavor of these wizards. Once the first round has gone past its hard to say what they would do. So badly wounded fleeing could be the best option. If you are looking to keep them there in combat under darkness area effect spells are the way the go perhaps a web(lev2) or grease (lev1) to slow people down before removing the darkness. Under darkness or invis they would be able to cast some of their defence spells. Mirror image (lev2) most likely. The wounded wizard might use vampiric touch(lev3) once darkness has been lifted to get HP back. Here are a few ideas but before you use any powerful NPCs its important to try to work out some plans for them. Plans should be two fold things go well, things go bad. Even fighters you need to know their feats and tactics to keep the battle interesting.
Cantankerous 06-20-06, 06:01 AM	Wait a minute. There were no doors? They were caught totally flatfooted, surprised? Why? What bunch of 6th level people would be so imbecilic if they weren't in an UTTERLY secure area. Where were their familiars? Any Alarm spells up and running? Why the hell not? Why would anyone be simple minded enough to do something that provoked an attack that they couldn't respond to on the chance that they MIGHT survive long enough to get help? Why didn't these guys just start sligning Grease spells and Scorching Rays and things that are quick, damaging and give them an instants breather to figure out what to do next? Why not a Mirror Image, so that you've got time do something more forceful later? These boys were run HORRIBLY. Isshia
Robaticus 06-20-06, 09:14 PM	1. Provide the apprentices with wands or other devices for a quick retaliatory attack. Wands, staves, flasks of alchemists fire, tanglefoot bags, rings of invisibility -- at level six, it is to be expected that these guys have some better items, maybe even a wondrous item or two. This would also, by the way, make nice loot for the party. Also, give the wizzies a couple of pots of Cure Serious. I'm not sure about you, but at higher levels (particularly if my PCs are running amock in my dungeon), I give my NPCs the -10 rule as well, so potentially one of my surviving NPC wizards could pour a Cure Serious potion down the throat of one of his compatriots. Why is it that everyone arms their fighters to the teeth, then plops their wizard in with nothing but memorized spells? This was often true for one of my parties of PCs as well. Three minutes into battle, and the wizzie was sitting out tossing darts at the bad guy, because he was all out of spells for the day. The fighter is plucking away at 1d8+4 each hit, and the wizzie is hitting once out of every 10 throws for 1d4+0. Sheesh! (sorry for the rant) -Rob
Thurbane 06-21-06, 02:49 AM	1.) They should have had better defenses set up: warding spells, guardian creatures, better locks on the doors, traps etc. 2.) If someone is toe-to-toe with them, they should always cast defensively. The Concentration check to cast defensively is seldom higher than the one required after a successful hit, and even if it fails, they havent provoked an attack of opportunity. 3.) They probably should have tried fatser, defensive spells instead of summonings. Blink, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Displacement etc. Failing that, they should have cast something to try and incapacitate the attackers: Web, Grease, Daze, Hold Person, Slow etc. 4.) If they had them available, they should have tried to use magic items that cannot be disrupted, the way that spellcasting can.
Dysartes 06-21-06, 03:04 AM	Here's a question for all of you, though - if the spellcasters are studying, in a room they view to be fully safe, how many of their spells would be combat-related, and how many would be utility-based? It doesn't make that much sense to me for them to have an arsenal of damage and other combat-related spells if they're reading up on how to cast Gentle Repose, for instance, or Secret Page. Of course, if part of their tuition programme involves an afternoon spent hurling combat spells at target dummies, then it makes a little more sense to me :) As for how this could have been done differently, Alarm spells in the corridors outside (min 60-100ft away, plus others at all known enterances to the level would have given them (and potentially the BBEG) a heads-up on what's going on - after all, if no-one comes down here, you're not likely to get many false positives. Some magic items (wands/scrolls - reading from the books working akin to a scroll? - potions or wonderous items) could have made a big difference to this encounter, too.
Robaticus 06-21-06, 07:43 AM	Here's a question for all of you, though - if the spellcasters are studying, in a room they view to be fully safe, how many of their spells would be combat-related, and how many would be utility-based? It doesn't make that much sense to me for them to have an arsenal of damage and other combat-related spells if they're reading up on how to cast Gentle Repose, for instance, or Secret Page. Yeah, this is one that I struggled with, as I was thinking about it. Your standard wizzie has a high Int, so they're going to have knowledge of past "invasions into ''safe'' dungeons", so I guess it would rely upon how wise they are. Regardless, you would expect that if they've survived up to CL6, that they've got some experience, so they should be expecting *something* to happen. Even if they don't have any defensive or offensive spells prepared, they should have the aforementioned magic items in possession for those dire situations. If I were personally one of the wizards, and I didn't need two of the spell slots for my research, I'd probably reserve one defensive and one offensive slot "just in case." -R
Vaelan 06-21-06, 07:49 AM	There are two common ways to play Wizards. One, you give them every tactical advantage and wonder why they wrecked the party despite only being CR Whatever. Two, you don't give them any tactical advantages and wonder why the party wrecked them despite them being CR Whatever. Even the mightiest of Wizards can be felled by a competent party if caught entirely, or at least severely, unprepared. The middle ground is slim, which is why every NPC Wizard in my campaign setting has utterly ridiculous home defense systems.