Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ransolot 02-04-07, 12:42 PM	Now, I'll be the first to come right out and say, I dont know ALL the rules. But, I had a session yesterday and I was bored as hell. It seems to me that my PC's can take out anything I can put against them without even trying. Now, thats not to say that Im putting CR's 5 levels above them against them, but tell me if this seems a bit off from yesterdays session. This is a very standard party they have here. A 14 Wizard, a 15 Cleric, a 14 Fighter and a 14 Ranger. Now, they went up against two White Dragons, a Adult CR10 and a Old one, CR 15. They blew through these dragons like they were made of toilet paper. Now I know this brings up many questions. Feel free to ask them here and I will get back to anyone that posts them. If I can get to the bottom of whats going on, it may make our sessions much more fun. Thank you very much everyone :D
Fencerboy 02-04-07, 12:48 PM	Is it possible that your players were particularly well equiped to deal with Cold monsters (i.e. flaming weapons)? Try taking down every magic or otherwise item that your players possess so you can plan, not to thwart them, but to challenge them more. Also, were the characters fighting on their terms or the dragons? White dragons may be the dumbest of dragons, but Old ones still know their stuff. Your characters may have been warned to much of the coming encounter and been a little too prepared.
Comus 02-04-07, 12:50 PM	If that was the only encounter they had that day, I'm not surprised they just walked through it. The D&D game is based on the assumption that characters will fight four CRs of equal level in a day. Now, that CR10 dragon is just a roadbump for the 14th level party. They could probably kill it in the surprise round. The CR 15 is about good for one of a partys daily encounters, which should only take up about 20-25% of their resources. Frankly, even with the dragons working together, the party wasn't in much danger. The CR was such that they weren't supposed to be too badly challenged. So don't feel bad they walked over it. If you want a boss-type encounter, consider upping the CR by another two notches.
Thevail 02-04-07, 02:19 PM	I have a question, are the AC's of the players really high? I ask this because that got to be a problem in one game I'm in. We just started cake-walking everything since nothing could hit us. Also it has a few side effects, like being able to "set-up" an ideal situation for all of our spells and attacks since we weren't even worried about Attacks of Opportunity. We were 16th level, a party of 5, and we assassinated an old dragon in one round. It's a massive damage thing. For more excitement, try giving the other side numerical superiority. It sucks getting flanked and grappled. You can also keep the CR's the same, but add in a few terrain modifiers, slippery ice, low visibility, etc.
Valeron 02-04-07, 02:52 PM	Really not much you can do if your players are well geared and experienced, but there is always some stuff you can do to give them a bit of a challenge. Now I dont know what kind of campaign your running, but here are just a few suggestions. Send them up against a party of evil adventurers made as PC's you would like to play yourself, only problem with that though is you have to be prepared to give them the loot from said adventurers hehe. Another thing I found pretty good a few weeks back in my game was sending the players up against a mind flayer and his minions, only twist is the area they were fighting them in was under a permanent silence spell. Which made it somewhat off a challenge, due to the silence the players were not allowed to communicate in character or ooc. They got a bit frustrated when they tried casting spells with verbal components and such, but in the end it proved to be quite a good and interesting fight. But anyways just try throwing them some curveballs, just use your imaginations to make some new challenges for them. Monsters with class levels are always good, modify the terrain for your purpose etc. Be sneaky ;) Now im not saying make something so hard that you get a TPK, but I know for a fact that my players atleast really enjoy themselves much more if they have a hard fight themselves.
ZombieDragon 02-04-07, 02:57 PM	It's probably a wealth issue. { DMG pg 135 } If you use the treasure calculator or published adventures, they both seem to give out far too much gold. If the party has extra resources they will be a stronger group and as such require a higher CR. Remember tombs and wishes and things that aren't still on their sheet count towards wealth too. It could be a stat issue. If they started with extra high stats over time this becomes worse if they are maxing things out and magic item hungry. This will also make them a tougher group. It could be a stacking issue. They may be stacking bonuses that are named the same and therefore don't get stacked but overlaped. The battle was 1 EL over the party and as such one of 2 or 3 for the party a day. A nice Encounter Calculator : http://www.geocities.com/edymnionii/EPLvsEL.html
Edymnion 02-04-07, 03:24 PM	Yes, the problem you are having, as far as I can tell, is that you don't understand how the CR system works. An equal CR to party level encounter is not supposed to be difficult. It is supposed to be, by default, something the players will beat the snot out of with only minimal risk. As in, your party should be able to take down four CR 14 encounters IN A ROW before they actually get into real trouble. Remember, equal CR to party level = easy fight. If you want a hard fight, you have to go 2-5 CRs over their heads. Things 2-5 CRs under them you might as well not even throw in as a serious attempt to challenge them, as they won't even bat an eye at them.
Ransolot 02-05-07, 06:11 PM	Wow. I must say, this has all so far been GREAT advice and I now know more and have a better idea of what to do. I already have great ideas and a better grasp and understanding of what I need to do as a DM. And as a note, ZombieDragon, the link you had for new DM's gave some really, really good ideas. Now, I am not a new DM, I have done it for years, but to fall back and take a look at the basics is always a good thing. There are things in there that I had totaly forgot about. Thanks for the link. Now, with that being said, let me add this and see if anyone has good advice on how to deal with this type of situation: The people I play with are really good at what they do. And someone here on this post nailed it. The players had much to easy of a time with being prepared for the White Dragons: The caught insight to a Dragon being in the area, the Wizard casted Mords Mansion and the waited inside untill they had all ends prepared for the battle. This as a DM took me for a loop that I didnt expect. I tried to have the Dragon dispell the mansion, with no luck. So, what is a good way to get them out of that type of situation without having to do the "Well, looks like the dragon is gone guys" so out they come to have "Oh wait, there he is" type of thing. I like to take my players by surprise. I heard "Well, I saw that coming" in another situation one time and that kinda got under my skin. Not becuase of them by any means, just that I know I didnt do my job the way I like to do it. Anyhow, just a bit more fat to chew that may help me out even more. Thanks
Mock26 02-05-07, 06:29 PM	I think that maybe you underplayed the dragons. My philosophy, as a DM, is plan every encounter with the intent to kill the group. I'm not saying that I want a TPK with every encounter nor am I saying to plan a TPK. I'm just saying that in a fight the monsters would do everything within their power to win, and that usually means killing their opponents. Part of this entails using their minds as well as their physical abilities. How did you play the dragons? Were both of them on the ground fighting the group with their melee attacks? What tactics did they use? Did you do any fly-by attacks to use their breath weapons to attack the group? Did they attack from two different directions at the same time to divide the attention of the group? Did you drop some large heavy objects on the group to try and soften them up? As for the Mansion, I would have simply had the dragons leave the area and then spy on the group from afar, wait for the spell to end, and then follow the group for a while and ambush them. It was a bad tactical move to simply have the dragons wait around. Another option would have been to have them uproot a whole lot of trees and pile them up around the area where the mansion was and build a makeshift barricade that the characters wouldn't have been able to get out of. Remember to always play with the intentions to kill, because that is what the monsters are trying to do. Even if you do this within the realms of the CR system you can create some incredibly challenging encounters that your players will not only enjoy, but they will probably remember them for years to come. Some of my fondest memories of nearly 3 decades of playing are ones where, even though we were evenly matched against the monsters, they used superior tactics and trickery to defeat the players. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
Senevri 02-05-07, 06:42 PM	That was an easy encounter. If you want something challenging, put them against 4 CR 14 dragons. That encounter should have a 50/50 chance of killing them, basically.
Gottwick 02-05-07, 06:59 PM	I agree that the encounter shouldn't have been tough. Beware sending in monsters with CR's four levels below the PCs. PCs can often kill such targets in one or two attacks. Was this outdoors? If so, can all four PCs fly at will? You might have underused the dragons, depending on the situation. Start hitting the PCs harder. Add HD or templates to boost the monsters' offense or defense. More importantly, I think you should give yourself more options. If the battle starts to go bad, that's what reinforcements are for. Or contingency spells, or one-use-per-day abilities.