Am I Expecting Too Much? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I Expecting Too Much? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sorreahdarkhart
07-22-07, 01:14 AM I'm creating an adventure for a group of ECL2 PCs, and I'm wondering if it's a good idea to just start throwing gnolls at them. It's an overall gnoll theme I'm going with, but I'm thinking I might be overestimating the group a little bit. I have the players, but not any PCs to go by, so I'm blindfolded as to how they might turn out. On an ad-hoc style, here are several encounter types I built:

2 gnoll 'skirmishers' (skirimishers are only a 1st level warrior)
3 'skirmishers' (this is the typical security at the adventure site)
2 'skirmishers' and 1 'strongman' (this is a tighter version of the security detail, as the strongmen are 1st level fighters and use chain ropes)
2 'strongmen' (the adventure site is a tower, so I figured as they get closer to the BBEG, they encounter his personal guards)
1 BBEG and 3 'skirmishers' (obviously the last battle, and the BBEG has 3 levels of either fighter/samurai, I can't decide which. I want him wielding a katana and a heavy shield at any rate.)

I'm curious if I'm challenging the party too much, because I'm not too good at calculating the CR encounters. At best, the party information I can provide is there will be four PCs, all at ECL 2. I say ECL 2 because I'm allowing the players to make characters from +1 LA races in addition to the other races.
Sci_fi__Messiah
07-22-07, 01:19 AM Try a couple, and if they're a bit tough on the players don't feel bad about fudging a few rolls or pretending it had slightly lower Hp and AC.

The whole gnoll motif might not work that well for that long. The variety is good but they're still gnolls. Make sure you players don't get sick of the idea.
Lady_Dragon
07-22-07, 02:10 AM Sound like you have a good plan. Like Sci_fi__Messiah suggested, just try a few encounters out on them, and fudge them if they're too difficult. Start low and work up to get a good idea of their builds and strategies. Or you could use maybe 1 gnoll to start off with and include a "pet" of some sort.

If you're worried about variety, don't feel like every encounter has to be gnolls. I deal with the same problem in my campaign. - just replace "gnolls" with "barbarians". Space them out with other monsters or make the combats different by giving them different combat styles or use an interesting terrain.
danielinthewolvesden
07-22-07, 02:24 AM What point buy are the PC's, how many, what classes?
Warduke
07-22-07, 02:28 AM I'm curious if I'm challenging the party too much, because I'm not too good at calculating the CR encounters.

http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm

This should help alot.
sorreahdarkhart
07-22-07, 03:06 AM It does help. Thanks! I'll have to figure out how to utilize it properly, but it helps.

I'll definetely mix it up a little. I wanted to go with an all-gnoll type bandit company, but now that I think of it, and that you guys advise, I'll toss some other monster types in there. The 4th level fighter/samurai is supposed to be the leader of the group, so I was thinking of minions that were smaller CR-wise so he would be the only "really good" NPC. Are gnolls baseline human intelligent? Or are they a little below? I'm considering tossing in a cleric-type NPC as a seperate encounter as well.

I'd probably consider the adventure site as a dynamic encounter setup. If the PCs blow their cover or let the scouting guards alert the tower inhabitants, the PCs would have a harder time getting through the tower because everyone inside has time to prepare for them. I'll have to study and map out the tower so I can consider the possibilites. I expect the PCs to get to the tower without alerting the outside guard mostly. But I should be prepared if that isn't the case.

I'll try to provide any additional PC information when I can. I've definetely got an aasimar for sure, and he possibly might be a paladin. I'm going to review that over with the player when we get together, but that's at least one.
Thanuir
07-22-07, 12:22 PM Warn the players that the encounters may be dangerous, so they should approach with care. Provide opportunities to get help or to let some gnoll-eating beast loose or to get the gnolls fight each other, but don't make those opportunities too easy. That'll ruin the fun.
sorreahdarkhart
07-22-07, 11:57 PM Thanuir, you took the words right from my mouth. When I was working today, I had considered the possibility of an 'animal watcher'. If the PCs were to, oh, say influence the watcher to their side, he'd help the PCs by lending them a few of the pets. I was considering worgs for this, would they be appropriate for the PCs? If they did pull this off, I'm wondering if that might be enough help or maybe a little too much. I'm still looking into it, but that was my best guess without having the Monster Manual on hand.

I was considering making the watcher an old, disgruntled gnoll (there's that theme again). I was also considering having him provide some comic relief in an otherwise dangerous location. Are there any thoughts about that? While I'm not going for an outright laugh-fest obviously, there must some sort of balance I should be gunning for. At least, that's how it seems.
danielinthewolvesden
07-23-07, 01:13 AM I
I'll try to provide any additional PC information when I can. I've definetely got an aasimar for sure, and he possibly might be a paladin. I'm going to review that over with the player when we get together, but that's at least one.

Yes, more info is crucial before you can give reliable answers. A 36 pt build is considerabel different than a 25pt build. Allowing ToB means the Tanks will be more powerful and so forth.
sorreahdarkhart
07-23-07, 01:21 AM I don't what the technical term for it is, but I've been taught using the "roll 4d6, take out the lowest #" style of building a character. So I figure that's what I'll be using, as it's comfortable with the rest of the group.

I'm still considering it, but I might allow Tome of Battle. I liked the whole idea of martial manuvers, but since playing it properly assumes miniatures (something that I lack), I might forgo it.
Gareshra
07-23-07, 01:38 AM I say for your first encounters vary the difficulty within a certain range, then make a note of which encounters seemed most balanced for your party. Also, roll fudging while you're scoping out their competence in battle is perfectly acceptable.
danielinthewolvesden
07-24-07, 02:56 AM I don't what the technical term for it is, but I've been taught using the "roll 4d6, take out the lowest #" style of building a character. So I figure that's what I'll be using, as it's comfortable with the rest of the group.

I'm still considering it, but I might allow Tome of Battle. I liked the whole idea of martial manuvers, but since playing it properly assumes miniatures (something that I lack), I might forgo it.

Well, that is fine unless one players rolls a just barely legal playable PC, and the other guy gets 17,18, 15, 16, 14, 17.

You need Minis for 3.5. Really. You do not need nicely painted little guys but get something. Pawns. Coins. Dice. Small pebbles. Ask the players ifany of them has anything. One figure for each PC and coins/dice/pebbles for the monsters is fine.
sorreahdarkhart
07-24-07, 11:18 PM I've often thought that the point buy system sounded too "BESM-ish" for my liking. Since I played BESM before playing D&D, it sounded like "oh, let's be like BESM!" (understand, I didn't know any better, so forgive and forget) Considering your point daniel, however, it's probably for the better I go with point buy. We've never been on the lucky side with dice (well, except me when I'm at work, then I'm on fire for some reason), so it makes sense.

As for minis, I should've mentioned I have a few. I'm very clearly new to D&D (even I played it in high school... eep), and War Drums was some of the first miniatures I bought. I don't have a lot, and I'm a bit jerky about using pieces that aren't what the PCs are, like using a orc mini to represent, oh, like a tiefling or something. I'm picky about that kind of stuff. I do have a Gargantuan Red Dragon that sits next to my computer (it was a gift, after the giver found out I bought what he was originally giving). It brings me glee.

I considered the gnoll deal a little more at my job today, and I thought of something more devious. What if the BBEG wasn't who he says he is? I was considering the idea that maybe some malign force replaced the gnoll leader with a evil version of him or something. I was thinking that perhaps the new BBEG tied up the old one and left him in a room in the tower somewhere. The PCs would find this guy and find out what's going on, and beat the tar out of the new BBEG. They could get the hint that something's not right with the leader from the animal keeper, and finding the leader tied up would confirm it. Of course, I'd need some sort of identification for the misplaced leader, so they would know who he is. And then there's the other BBEG... I'm not sure what exactly to make him/her, aside from the fact they have to look like him. I'm thinking a glamer or changeling of some sort?
nightside_samurai
07-24-07, 11:53 PM As for minis, I should've mentioned I have a few. I'm very clearly new to D&D (even I played it in high school... eep), and War Drums was some of the first miniatures I bought. I don't have a lot, and I'm a bit jerky about using pieces that aren't what the PCs are, like using a orc mini to represent, oh, like a tiefling or something. I'm picky about that kind of stuff. I do have a Gargantuan Red Dragon that sits next to my computer (it was a gift, after the giver found out I bought what he was originally giving). It brings me glee.

The way I've supplemented my need for minis is by buying the booster packs for the D&D Miniatures game. I don't play the game myself but the miniatures are good quality and durable so I don't have to paint them myself and they work well for monsters and PCs.
danielinthewolvesden
07-25-07, 12:57 AM Oh gosh, if you want cheap figs go to eBay. Folks there will be happy to sell you complete sets of Commons or Uncommons, or multiple commons- all at prices below buying blind boxes. True, there will be no Rares, that is how they make their money. I have nigh every common and uncommon fig ever made.
sorreahdarkhart
07-26-07, 01:48 AM I'll definetely try it out. I'm working with a friend of mine and we'll check it out and see about those minis. Hopefully I can score some gnoll minis, cause I really don't have too many (I think the count is, like, 2 or something), and this adventure basically relies on them. Of course, I can use proxies, but like I said, picky. Very picky. Hopefully I can score me some yuan-ti. I'd like to make an adventure based with those too.
danielinthewolvesden
07-26-07, 02:15 AM BESM!

BESM?:confused:
Insanit
07-26-07, 02:29 AM BESM?:confused:
Big Evil Scary Monster?
Fireclave
07-26-07, 03:35 AM Big Eyes, Small Mouths. A anime-based d20. That's about all I know about it.
hovnarr
07-26-07, 09:23 AM Not to be confused with BDSM. That's all I know about it.
sorreahdarkhart
07-26-07, 11:13 PM To clarify, it's Big Eyes, Small Mouth. Fireclave's right, to an extent. It's originally published by Guardians of Order, who were subsequently picked up by White Wolf, and now Arthaus publishes it. It's an RPG module that uses a point buy value system, and as someone who played it originally, it was pretty hokey.

Which is why I think point buy seems a little silly. I'm willing to try anything once, and I did in fact try building a PC using the standard point buy rules (25 points, a standard campaign). I sat there looking at the character (a tiefling warblade), and thought, "how am I ever going to get this character to be cool???" I mean, RPGA aside, point buy seems to just strip the PCs out of good rolls (I would assume I'd be running standard, as I don't think my adventure would come to the Greyhawk level of play). Yes, you can have an 18 in a score, but at such a sacrifice to your others. To me, it seems to put too much "average" into someone who isn't supposed to be "average". I had my trusty dice roll up for me and I got these six: 16, 12, 11, 13, 11, and 17. Not bad, considering I felt the need to cover my tiefling's Charisma penalty, and I felt a little screwed with trying to cover it point-wise.

I guess it's just preference, I suppose. I appreciate the tip, but unfortunately, I don't think point buy might go over too well with me, or my players. I'll still give it a shot with the player I'm working with later in the week, but if he doesn't like it, then we'll just stick with the fates of the dice I guess.
danielinthewolvesden
07-27-07, 03:03 AM Well, there are several alternate systems. The one I like best is roll (4d6 drop 1) and if you do not like what you rolled you get a 28 (or 30) point buy as a default. In other words, you CAN roll great but you never get real cruddy.

The problem is folks who roll bad. Now if they roll REAL bad, there are rules for "hopeless PC's" but someone with REAL bad luck can get a PC just barely "not hopeless" but truely sucky. Sure, you as a DM can say "Ok, re-roll" but then what happens if the next guy gets Ok rolls but also wants a re-roll? You have opened the gate with allowing a re-roll on a pC not "hopeless" by the RAW, and many players truely consider a PC with no high stats (16, 17, 18) "hopeless". (I will- and have- played a PC who got all 14's. Great for MAD classes.)

So if you do "Roll but you get a xx pt buy if you do not like your roll" you will have a minimum of whining. Then all you gotta do is figure out what to do with the real lucky guy who rolls 18, 18, 17, 16, 15, 11!
Fireclave
07-27-07, 03:48 AM Which is why I think point buy seems a little silly. I'm willing to try anything once, and I did in fact try building a PC using the standard point buy rules (25 points, a standard campaign). I sat there looking at the character (a tiefling warblade), and thought, "how am I ever going to get this character to be cool???"

I think that the 25 point buy is suppose to equal the elite array for generating NPCs. Which, while not bad, isn't all that great since, statwise, you're no better than anybody else in the world. The first time I used point buy was with NWN, which used a 32 point buy. You could make a character with an 18 in one stat, a 14 in another stat, and straight 10's in the rest. Or you could make 16 in your highest stat instead of 18 and make those six points go to making your character more well-rounded. This works grant for both classes that speacilize in one stat and for MAD classes. Either way, there was no way for your character to suck stat-wise. Granted, 32 points is a fairly high-powered stat buy (understandable in NWN since it's normally just you an a cohort), so a 28 or 30 point buy would probably be more appropriate for most games.
Thanuir
07-27-07, 12:37 PM BESM?:confused:BESM (http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=82).

Another dice rolling scheme: Every player rolls a score for every ability (for higher ability spread, you roll one, too). All the scores are put to a matrix.
Every player, in order starting from the least experienced/powergamey player, picks one score, writes it down for his/her character, and crosses it over from the matrix. Continue until every character has a score in every ability.

Example matrix with three players might look like this:

Str: 13 | 18 | 14
Dex: 16 | 9 | 16
Con: 12 | 10 | 15
Int: 5 | 13 | 17
Wis: 11 | 12 | 14
Cha: 15 |13 |16

Player negotiation should be encouraged before the scores are distributed.

(When we used this, the order of selecting an attribute score was first from least experienced to most, then from most exp'd to least, then from least to most, and so on.)

A clearly evil, or at least nasty, gnoll shaman who hates the tribe because she was banished for whatever reason, might work. The shaman could provide intelligence about the gnolls and do some minor magic, but would be too old to be of much help in battle (-6 to all physical attributes, +3 to mental ones, from age). Maybe an adept, class-wise.

Of course, if the shaman got control of the tribe, the situation wouldn't actually improve that much, unlee the PCs managed a deal the gnoll would be willing to honour.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sorreahdarkhart 07-22-07, 01:14 AM	I'm creating an adventure for a group of ECL2 PCs, and I'm wondering if it's a good idea to just start throwing gnolls at them. It's an overall gnoll theme I'm going with, but I'm thinking I might be overestimating the group a little bit. I have the players, but not any PCs to go by, so I'm blindfolded as to how they might turn out. On an ad-hoc style, here are several encounter types I built: 2 gnoll 'skirmishers' (skirimishers are only a 1st level warrior) 3 'skirmishers' (this is the typical security at the adventure site) 2 'skirmishers' and 1 'strongman' (this is a tighter version of the security detail, as the strongmen are 1st level fighters and use chain ropes) 2 'strongmen' (the adventure site is a tower, so I figured as they get closer to the BBEG, they encounter his personal guards) 1 BBEG and 3 'skirmishers' (obviously the last battle, and the BBEG has 3 levels of either fighter/samurai, I can't decide which. I want him wielding a katana and a heavy shield at any rate.) I'm curious if I'm challenging the party too much, because I'm not too good at calculating the CR encounters. At best, the party information I can provide is there will be four PCs, all at ECL 2. I say ECL 2 because I'm allowing the players to make characters from +1 LA races in addition to the other races.
Sci_fi__Messiah 07-22-07, 01:19 AM	Try a couple, and if they're a bit tough on the players don't feel bad about fudging a few rolls or pretending it had slightly lower Hp and AC. The whole gnoll motif might not work that well for that long. The variety is good but they're still gnolls. Make sure you players don't get sick of the idea.
Lady_Dragon 07-22-07, 02:10 AM	Sound like you have a good plan. Like Sci_fi__Messiah suggested, just try a few encounters out on them, and fudge them if they're too difficult. Start low and work up to get a good idea of their builds and strategies. Or you could use maybe 1 gnoll to start off with and include a "pet" of some sort. If you're worried about variety, don't feel like every encounter has to be gnolls. I deal with the same problem in my campaign. - just replace "gnolls" with "barbarians". Space them out with other monsters or make the combats different by giving them different combat styles or use an interesting terrain.
danielinthewolvesden 07-22-07, 02:24 AM	What point buy are the PC's, how many, what classes?
Warduke 07-22-07, 02:28 AM	I'm curious if I'm challenging the party too much, because I'm not too good at calculating the CR encounters. http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm This should help alot.
sorreahdarkhart 07-22-07, 03:06 AM	It does help. Thanks! I'll have to figure out how to utilize it properly, but it helps. I'll definetely mix it up a little. I wanted to go with an all-gnoll type bandit company, but now that I think of it, and that you guys advise, I'll toss some other monster types in there. The 4th level fighter/samurai is supposed to be the leader of the group, so I was thinking of minions that were smaller CR-wise so he would be the only "really good" NPC. Are gnolls baseline human intelligent? Or are they a little below? I'm considering tossing in a cleric-type NPC as a seperate encounter as well. I'd probably consider the adventure site as a dynamic encounter setup. If the PCs blow their cover or let the scouting guards alert the tower inhabitants, the PCs would have a harder time getting through the tower because everyone inside has time to prepare for them. I'll have to study and map out the tower so I can consider the possibilites. I expect the PCs to get to the tower without alerting the outside guard mostly. But I should be prepared if that isn't the case. I'll try to provide any additional PC information when I can. I've definetely got an aasimar for sure, and he possibly might be a paladin. I'm going to review that over with the player when we get together, but that's at least one.
Thanuir 07-22-07, 12:22 PM	Warn the players that the encounters may be dangerous, so they should approach with care. Provide opportunities to get help or to let some gnoll-eating beast loose or to get the gnolls fight each other, but don't make those opportunities too easy. That'll ruin the fun.
sorreahdarkhart 07-22-07, 11:57 PM	Thanuir, you took the words right from my mouth. When I was working today, I had considered the possibility of an 'animal watcher'. If the PCs were to, oh, say influence the watcher to their side, he'd help the PCs by lending them a few of the pets. I was considering worgs for this, would they be appropriate for the PCs? If they did pull this off, I'm wondering if that might be enough help or maybe a little too much. I'm still looking into it, but that was my best guess without having the Monster Manual on hand. I was considering making the watcher an old, disgruntled gnoll (there's that theme again). I was also considering having him provide some comic relief in an otherwise dangerous location. Are there any thoughts about that? While I'm not going for an outright laugh-fest obviously, there must some sort of balance I should be gunning for. At least, that's how it seems.
danielinthewolvesden 07-23-07, 01:13 AM	I I'll try to provide any additional PC information when I can. I've definetely got an aasimar for sure, and he possibly might be a paladin. I'm going to review that over with the player when we get together, but that's at least one. Yes, more info is crucial before you can give reliable answers. A 36 pt build is considerabel different than a 25pt build. Allowing ToB means the Tanks will be more powerful and so forth.
sorreahdarkhart 07-23-07, 01:21 AM	I don't what the technical term for it is, but I've been taught using the "roll 4d6, take out the lowest #" style of building a character. So I figure that's what I'll be using, as it's comfortable with the rest of the group. I'm still considering it, but I might allow Tome of Battle. I liked the whole idea of martial manuvers, but since playing it properly assumes miniatures (something that I lack), I might forgo it.
Gareshra 07-23-07, 01:38 AM	I say for your first encounters vary the difficulty within a certain range, then make a note of which encounters seemed most balanced for your party. Also, roll fudging while you're scoping out their competence in battle is perfectly acceptable.
danielinthewolvesden 07-24-07, 02:56 AM	I don't what the technical term for it is, but I've been taught using the "roll 4d6, take out the lowest #" style of building a character. So I figure that's what I'll be using, as it's comfortable with the rest of the group. I'm still considering it, but I might allow Tome of Battle. I liked the whole idea of martial manuvers, but since playing it properly assumes miniatures (something that I lack), I might forgo it. Well, that is fine unless one players rolls a just barely legal playable PC, and the other guy gets 17,18, 15, 16, 14, 17. You need Minis for 3.5. Really. You do not need nicely painted little guys but get something. Pawns. Coins. Dice. Small pebbles. Ask the players ifany of them has anything. One figure for each PC and coins/dice/pebbles for the monsters is fine.
sorreahdarkhart 07-24-07, 11:18 PM	I've often thought that the point buy system sounded too "BESM-ish" for my liking. Since I played BESM before playing D&D, it sounded like "oh, let's be like BESM!" (understand, I didn't know any better, so forgive and forget) Considering your point daniel, however, it's probably for the better I go with point buy. We've never been on the lucky side with dice (well, except me when I'm at work, then I'm on fire for some reason), so it makes sense. As for minis, I should've mentioned I have a few. I'm very clearly new to D&D (even I played it in high school... eep), and War Drums was some of the first miniatures I bought. I don't have a lot, and I'm a bit jerky about using pieces that aren't what the PCs are, like using a orc mini to represent, oh, like a tiefling or something. I'm picky about that kind of stuff. I do have a Gargantuan Red Dragon that sits next to my computer (it was a gift, after the giver found out I bought what he was originally giving). It brings me glee. I considered the gnoll deal a little more at my job today, and I thought of something more devious. What if the BBEG wasn't who he says he is? I was considering the idea that maybe some malign force replaced the gnoll leader with a evil version of him or something. I was thinking that perhaps the new BBEG tied up the old one and left him in a room in the tower somewhere. The PCs would find this guy and find out what's going on, and beat the tar out of the new BBEG. They could get the hint that something's not right with the leader from the animal keeper, and finding the leader tied up would confirm it. Of course, I'd need some sort of identification for the misplaced leader, so they would know who he is. And then there's the other BBEG... I'm not sure what exactly to make him/her, aside from the fact they have to look like him. I'm thinking a glamer or changeling of some sort?
nightside_samurai 07-24-07, 11:53 PM	As for minis, I should've mentioned I have a few. I'm very clearly new to D&D (even I played it in high school... eep), and War Drums was some of the first miniatures I bought. I don't have a lot, and I'm a bit jerky about using pieces that aren't what the PCs are, like using a orc mini to represent, oh, like a tiefling or something. I'm picky about that kind of stuff. I do have a Gargantuan Red Dragon that sits next to my computer (it was a gift, after the giver found out I bought what he was originally giving). It brings me glee. The way I've supplemented my need for minis is by buying the booster packs for the D&D Miniatures game. I don't play the game myself but the miniatures are good quality and durable so I don't have to paint them myself and they work well for monsters and PCs.
danielinthewolvesden 07-25-07, 12:57 AM	Oh gosh, if you want cheap figs go to eBay. Folks there will be happy to sell you complete sets of Commons or Uncommons, or multiple commons- all at prices below buying blind boxes. True, there will be no Rares, that is how they make their money. I have nigh every common and uncommon fig ever made.
sorreahdarkhart 07-26-07, 01:48 AM	I'll definetely try it out. I'm working with a friend of mine and we'll check it out and see about those minis. Hopefully I can score some gnoll minis, cause I really don't have too many (I think the count is, like, 2 or something), and this adventure basically relies on them. Of course, I can use proxies, but like I said, picky. Very picky. Hopefully I can score me some yuan-ti. I'd like to make an adventure based with those too.
danielinthewolvesden 07-26-07, 02:15 AM	BESM! BESM?:confused:
Insanit 07-26-07, 02:29 AM	BESM?:confused: Big Evil Scary Monster?
Fireclave 07-26-07, 03:35 AM	Big Eyes, Small Mouths. A anime-based d20. That's about all I know about it.
hovnarr 07-26-07, 09:23 AM	Not to be confused with BDSM. That's all I know about it.
sorreahdarkhart 07-26-07, 11:13 PM	To clarify, it's Big Eyes, Small Mouth. Fireclave's right, to an extent. It's originally published by Guardians of Order, who were subsequently picked up by White Wolf, and now Arthaus publishes it. It's an RPG module that uses a point buy value system, and as someone who played it originally, it was pretty hokey. Which is why I think point buy seems a little silly. I'm willing to try anything once, and I did in fact try building a PC using the standard point buy rules (25 points, a standard campaign). I sat there looking at the character (a tiefling warblade), and thought, "how am I ever going to get this character to be cool???" I mean, RPGA aside, point buy seems to just strip the PCs out of good rolls (I would assume I'd be running standard, as I don't think my adventure would come to the Greyhawk level of play). Yes, you can have an 18 in a score, but at such a sacrifice to your others. To me, it seems to put too much "average" into someone who isn't supposed to be "average". I had my trusty dice roll up for me and I got these six: 16, 12, 11, 13, 11, and 17. Not bad, considering I felt the need to cover my tiefling's Charisma penalty, and I felt a little screwed with trying to cover it point-wise. I guess it's just preference, I suppose. I appreciate the tip, but unfortunately, I don't think point buy might go over too well with me, or my players. I'll still give it a shot with the player I'm working with later in the week, but if he doesn't like it, then we'll just stick with the fates of the dice I guess.
danielinthewolvesden 07-27-07, 03:03 AM	Well, there are several alternate systems. The one I like best is roll (4d6 drop 1) and if you do not like what you rolled you get a 28 (or 30) point buy as a default. In other words, you CAN roll great but you never get real cruddy. The problem is folks who roll bad. Now if they roll REAL bad, there are rules for "hopeless PC's" but someone with REAL bad luck can get a PC just barely "not hopeless" but truely sucky. Sure, you as a DM can say "Ok, re-roll" but then what happens if the next guy gets Ok rolls but also wants a re-roll? You have opened the gate with allowing a re-roll on a pC not "hopeless" by the RAW, and many players truely consider a PC with no high stats (16, 17, 18) "hopeless". (I will- and have- played a PC who got all 14's. Great for MAD classes.) So if you do "Roll but you get a xx pt buy if you do not like your roll" you will have a minimum of whining. Then all you gotta do is figure out what to do with the real lucky guy who rolls 18, 18, 17, 16, 15, 11!
Fireclave 07-27-07, 03:48 AM	Which is why I think point buy seems a little silly. I'm willing to try anything once, and I did in fact try building a PC using the standard point buy rules (25 points, a standard campaign). I sat there looking at the character (a tiefling warblade), and thought, "how am I ever going to get this character to be cool???" I think that the 25 point buy is suppose to equal the elite array for generating NPCs. Which, while not bad, isn't all that great since, statwise, you're no better than anybody else in the world. The first time I used point buy was with NWN, which used a 32 point buy. You could make a character with an 18 in one stat, a 14 in another stat, and straight 10's in the rest. Or you could make 16 in your highest stat instead of 18 and make those six points go to making your character more well-rounded. This works grant for both classes that speacilize in one stat and for MAD classes. Either way, there was no way for your character to suck stat-wise. Granted, 32 points is a fairly high-powered stat buy (understandable in NWN since it's normally just you an a cohort), so a 28 or 30 point buy would probably be more appropriate for most games.
Thanuir 07-27-07, 12:37 PM	BESM?:confused:BESM (http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=82). Another dice rolling scheme: Every player rolls a score for every ability (for higher ability spread, you roll one, too). All the scores are put to a matrix. Every player, in order starting from the least experienced/powergamey player, picks one score, writes it down for his/her character, and crosses it over from the matrix. Continue until every character has a score in every ability. Example matrix with three players might look like this: Str: 13 \| 18 \| 14 Dex: 16 \| 9 \| 16 Con: 12 \| 10 \| 15 Int: 5 \| 13 \| 17 Wis: 11 \| 12 \| 14 Cha: 15 \|13 \|16 Player negotiation should be encouraged before the scores are distributed. (When we used this, the order of selecting an attribute score was first from least experienced to most, then from most exp'd to least, then from least to most, and so on.) A clearly evil, or at least nasty, gnoll shaman who hates the tribe because she was banished for whatever reason, might work. The shaman could provide intelligence about the gnolls and do some minor magic, but would be too old to be of much help in battle (-6 to all physical attributes, +3 to mental ones, from age). Maybe an adept, class-wise. Of course, if the shaman got control of the tribe, the situation wouldn't actually improve that much, unlee the PCs managed a deal the gnoll would be willing to honour.