Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tazi Swiftblade 10-02-06, 11:21 AM	As part of my current campaign, the party is heading to a sacred site of a religious order opposed to the agenda of the gods worshipped by the party's paladin and cleric. The paladin and the cleric are well aware of this and have been warned several times by their religious elders not to mingle with the order in question. During the trip, both have experienced dreams in which their gods issued a symbolic warning to steer clear of the site. If they proceed to the site, it seems apparent to me that they would be in direct violation of their gods' orders -- and that they would have their god-granted abilities stripped as punishment. The pair seems to be pretty confident, however, that they will convert to the faith of the religious order who maintains the shrine. If that happens, I will have the high priest at the shrine cast an atonement spell on them. But he also will require them to do a quest to prove they are serious about the conversion. The cleric, it seems to me, should regain his clerical abilities once the atonement spell is cast and he accepts his new diety. In the paladin's case, it will be necessary for him to take on a new class (champion of balance). So, in that case, I'm thinking he probably shouldn't be able to take on that new class instantly but once he completes the quest. My questions: 1) Have I given the two players adequate warning that the visit to the shrine will anger their gods to the point of stripping some of their powers? 2) Am I handling their conversion in a fair and logical manner? Should the paladin be required to complete his quest before regaining divine powers while the cleric regains spell abilities instantly with his conversion? Thanks in advance for your advice!
dizfactor 10-02-06, 11:33 AM	As part of my current campaign, the party is heading to a sacred site of a religious order opposed to the agenda of the gods worshipped by the party's paladin and cleric. The paladin and the cleric are well aware of this and have been warned several times by their religious elders not to mingle with the order in question. During the trip, both have experienced dreams in which their gods issued a symbolic warning to steer clear of the site. If they proceed to the site, it seems apparent to me that they would be in direct violation of their gods' orders -- and that they would have their god-granted abilities stripped as punishment. The pair seems to be pretty confident, however, that they will convert to the faith of the religious order who maintains the shrine. If that happens, I will have the high priest at the shrine cast an atonement spell on them. But he also will require them to do a quest to prove they are serious about the conversion. The cleric, it seems to me, should regain his clerical abilities once the atonement spell is cast and he accepts his new diety. In the paladin's case, it will be necessary for him to take on a new class (champion of balance). So, in that case, I'm thinking he probably shouldn't be able to take on that new class instantly but once he completes the quest. My questions: 1) Have I given the two players adequate warning that the visit to the shrine will anger their gods to the point of stripping some of their powers? 2) Am I handling their conversion in a fair and logical manner? Should the paladin be required to complete his quest before regaining divine powers while the cleric regains spell abilities instantly with his conversion? Thanks in advance for your advice! I think you're basically on track, but I want to be clear on something here. When you say "The pair seems to be pretty confident, however, that they will convert to the faith of the religious order who maintains the shrine," do you mean the players or their characters? If it's the players speculating about what their characters are likely to do, then that's one thing. But if the characters are already planning to convert, then it kind of puts a different spin on things. In some sense, they've already converted in their hearts and, depending on how you handle deities and faith, it might be appropriate for them to have lost their deities' favor already.
Tazi Swiftblade 10-02-06, 11:43 AM	I think you're basically on track, but I want to be clear on something here. When you say "The pair seems to be pretty confident, however, that they will convert to the faith of the religious order who maintains the shrine," do you mean the players or their characters? If it's the players speculating about what their characters are likely to do, then that's one thing. But if the characters are already planning to convert, then it kind of puts a different spin on things. In some sense, they've already converted in their hearts and, depending on how you handle deities and faith, it might be appropriate for them to have lost their deities' favor already. Good catch. Yes, I meant the PLAYERS. The paladin and cleric CHARACTERS still are undecided about their paths.
KJW 10-02-06, 12:51 PM	I think you are on track as well, but you might want to consider if their current deities will inflict some punishment on them. Even good deities are going to be upset that individuals their faiths have trained and supported use the experience from that training and support to benefit another faith. For example, the paladin may be struck blind until he atones to his deity, and by atone I don't mean the spell atonement, but to perform some act to compensate his deity for his defection. Maybe the cleric converts, but finds himself unable to cast certain spells (such as raise dead or ones related to the portfolio of his previous deity) until he also atones. The situation is tricky and should be, it is possible the new deity will intervene for his converts to lift any burdens, but this is a great place to compare divine power and portfolios to figure out what can and cannot be lifted by the new deity. Furthermore, the new deity may not want them...if they abandoned their old gods what's to stop them from abandoning him in the future, like you said a quest may be in order. In fact, they may have to do the quest with the banes inflicted by their old deities, in other words they will have no divine abilities and curses for a quest, which if they complete their new deity will restore their divine powers and may be able to lift some of the curses. Then you have not only the concerns of the old deities, but his faith, the elders may decide to take more extreme action to prevent a mass exodus from the faith that might follow the PCs. By all means let the PCs convert, but make sure they realize that changing gods is not like changing long-distance plans.
lears_fool 10-02-06, 12:56 PM	make sure they realize that changing gods is not like changing long-distance plans. I concur enthusiastically there. I'd be a bit careful with respect to the characters themselves. . if the actual characters are seriously considering converting to a different deity then one would think their current deity would already be more than a little annoyed. After all, if their faith is so fickle how did they become palladin and priest? Feel free to penalize them a bit. I wouldn't make it impossible for them to switch faiths, but definitely leave periods where they're no longer rewarded by their current deity when they're ignoring them and weak in faith and also a time when they're following the new one where they're 'on probation' a bit
dizfactor 10-02-06, 01:03 PM	I concur enthusiastically there. I'd be a bit careful with respect to the characters themselves. . if the actual characters are seriously considering converting to a different deity then one would think their current deity would already be more than a little annoyed. After all, if their faith is so fickle how did they become palladin and priest? I think it's important that they roleplay out this crisis of faith. It strikes me as a possible level of irony to throw in here might be to look at the very steps the deities are taking to keep them away from the other religion's holy site might actually be helping to drive them away. "We need to go to place X, but my god doesn't want me to go. I keep trying to tell myself that it's not my place to question, but we really need to go there, and I don't see the logic in refraining from doing so. They seem like nice people. Why doesn't my god want me to talk to them? I wonder what they have to say..."
Tazi Swiftblade 10-02-06, 02:18 PM	All good suggestions. Thanks for your input so far.
DarkNick 10-02-06, 02:48 PM	Why would these characters even go to this site? By giving them a warning do you expect them not to go there? It would be pretty unfair to require them to go to this site yet have their own gods forbid it. What's the motive behind going to this place? Can you give a little more of the story? In a multi-god world I don't think gods will be too bothered by their followers visiting another gods sacred site. It does not seem all that logical to me. What's the harm in it, they are not aiding this other religious order are they?
Rhomphaia 10-02-06, 02:50 PM	By all means let the PCs convert, but make sure they realize that changing gods is not like changing long-distance plans. Someone hasn't ever tried dropping AT&T... Seriously though, you are on track. Just remember though, don't punish the paladin more just because they are a paladin. Realistically, the cleric would get hit worse in this situation. I would suggest the following; when they convert, the cleric loses ALL spells, domains and turning and the paladin loses all spells and class features (smite evil, lay on hands, etc). Then to prove their faith, they undertake a test to esure their faith and their compatability to their new deity. I am in favor of three-part quests myself. For example, if the deity the characters are converting to is LG, then the first test might be to oversee a trial and come up with the right decision based on the law. The second part might be to deliver goods to a somewhat isolated hamlet, but it lies within hostile territory of some sort. Finally, the characters are tested on sacrifice. Make them think they will most likely die if they undertake the mission, but that in death, they will succeed at some greater good. Make sure these quests are all alignment based (ie- a chaotic deity probably wouldn't have the characters sit in on a trial, but maybe engage in vigilante justice instead). Of course they can fail, but in all likelyhood they should live and if successful, they have their abilities restored at a somewhat diminished level (say the abilities are at -1 or 2 character levels) for the first adventure afterwards but are otherwise normal.
Tazi Swiftblade 10-02-06, 03:21 PM	Why would these characters even go to this site? By giving them a warning do you expect them not to go there? It would be pretty unfair to require them to go to this site yet have their own gods forbid it. What's the motive behind going to this place? Can you give a little more of the story? In a multi-god world I don't think gods will be too bothered by their followers visiting another gods sacred site. It does not seem all that logical to me. What's the harm in it, they are not aiding this other religious order are they? Without boring everyone with every bit of backstory in the campaign so far, the characters are being forced to pick sides (one of three, essentially) in an escalating cosmic war. They are visiting the shrine to hear out the order's side of the conflict and -- and in what appears to be the most likely course of action -- to help them with their goals. To seek a meeting with the enemy is a direct affront to their (admittedly jealous and perhaps petty) gods, whose goals in the rapidly intensifying war are diametrically opposed to those of the order. Their gods want to see the order destroyed or at least marginalized. I've given the party freedom to decide which side they will serve, and I think it's very reasonable to believe that they would be punished by their gods should they opt to serve the other side.
lears_fool 10-02-06, 03:36 PM	I've given the party freedom to decide which side they will serve, and I think it's very reasonable to believe that they would be punished by their gods should they opt to serve the other side. That makes perfect sense. It may be that their current deities may also resort to other motivational tactics (i.e. bribery and such) before accepting that the players are switching teams. However once they've finalized their decision they're NOT going to get anything divinely powered from their current deity. . they may even discover abilities failing without warning. In the same scenario however, it seems that once they've switched sides the other team won't make it too difficult on them and will welcome them into the fold more easily than a typical deity-switch.
DarkNick 10-02-06, 03:40 PM	Without boring everyone with every bit of backstory in the campaign so far, the characters are being forced to pick sides (one of three, essentially) in an escalating cosmic war. They are visiting the shrine to hear out the order's side of the conflict and -- and in what appears to be the most likely course of action -- to help them with their goals. To seek a meeting with the enemy is a direct affront to their (admittedly jealous and perhaps petty) gods, whose goals in the rapidly intensifying war are diametrically opposed to those of the order. Their gods want to see the order destroyed or at least marginalized. I've given the party freedom to decide which side they will serve, and I think it's very reasonable to believe that they would be punished by their gods should they opt to serve the other side. Ahh, that makes more sense. So the characters are following what they see as the highest 'good'? Cheers. I think your handling it right. Some test of faith sounds like a plan. I suppose if they have the right stuff in their hearts then maybe they can just change and get powers from their new gods. But then lawful gods might like to see their new followers go through the correct procedures whatever they may be.. maybe the characters are more likely to need to satisfy their new church rather than the gods themselves as the gods probably already know if their faith is good.
Aeromus 10-02-06, 05:39 PM	As part of my current campaign, the party is heading to a sacred site of a religious order opposed to the agenda of the gods worshipped by the party's paladin and cleric. The paladin and the cleric are well aware of this and have been warned several times by their religious elders not to mingle with the order in question. During the trip, both have experienced dreams in which their gods issued a symbolic warning to steer clear of the site. If they proceed to the site, it seems apparent to me that they would be in direct violation of their gods' orders -- and that they would have their god-granted abilities stripped as punishment. The pair seems to be pretty confident, however, that they will convert to the faith of the religious order who maintains the shrine. If that happens, I will have the high priest at the shrine cast an atonement spell on them. But he also will require them to do a quest to prove they are serious about the conversion. The cleric, it seems to me, should regain his clerical abilities once the atonement spell is cast and he accepts his new diety. In the paladin's case, it will be necessary for him to take on a new class (champion of balance). So, in that case, I'm thinking he probably shouldn't be able to take on that new class instantly but once he completes the quest. My questions: 1) Have I given the two players adequate warning that the visit to the shrine will anger their gods to the point of stripping some of their powers? 2) Am I handling their conversion in a fair and logical manner? Should the paladin be required to complete his quest before regaining divine powers while the cleric regains spell abilities instantly with his conversion? Thanks in advance for your advice! Using a god to railroad the players into specific actions isn't a good idea. The elders of the temple may warn them, or forbid them from going, but thier powers shouldn't taken away unless one of the elders can say cast a miracle to do it. The God's are a fickle bunch, and really wouldn't pay much attention to the players. Also you didn't provide enough information. I assume the gods of the PC's are Good, since one is a Paladin. But this shrine, what alignment is that? If it's Good or even Nuetral I can't understand why a Good faith would be so extreme. And, if it's evil I can't see why the Faith wouldn't want them to go and "purge" the evil. For the God/Faith to impose such a penalty, it should have "greed" or maybe "jealousy" in its portfolio, and niether of those are particulary "good" diety portfolio topics.
Tazi Swiftblade 10-02-06, 05:59 PM	Using a god to railroad the players into specific actions isn't a good idea. The elders of the temple may warn them, or forbid them from going, but thier powers shouldn't taken away unless one of the elders can say cast a miracle to do it. The God's are a fickle bunch, and really wouldn't pay much attention to the players. Also you didn't provide enough information. I assume the gods of the PC's are Good, since one is a Paladin. But this shrine, what alignment is that? If it's Good or even Nuetral I can't understand why a Good faith would be so extreme. And, if it's evil I can't see why the Faith wouldn't want them to go and "purge" the evil. For the God/Faith to impose such a penalty, it should have "greed" or maybe "jealousy" in its portfolio, and niether of those are particulary "good" diety portfolio topics. The players are acting on their own. No railroading involved. In fact, it probably would be a lot easier for them if they DIDN'T want to throw in with the third party in the cosmic conflict. But, to my mind, if that's what they want to do, it's essentially turning their back on their respective dieties who are at war with the deity worshiped by the order who maintains the shrine. I was probably overly vague with my first post, but this is a game that's been going on for a couple of years and has considerable back story.
tsuyoshikentsu 10-02-06, 09:27 PM	Look at this from a different perspective: that of the NEW gods. A cleric and a paladin -- probably two of the more powerful players for tehir rivals? If I were this new god, I'd heap power on them like gravy on potatoes. (Oy, didn't need to do that. Fasting sucks.) Uhm, anyway, I wouldn't penalize them at all -- say whatever power they lost by switching away was more than replaced by the power of the new god. Of course, the new god will be watching them veeeeery carefully -- once a traitor, always a traitor.
Lord_Varos 10-02-06, 09:49 PM	Here's a spin I like to put on the Cleric or Paladin's oaths: When a divine (caster) character of any sort first gets his divine powers, be they spells, smiting, or what have you, they basically sign a spiritual "please **** with me" waiver. If a Cleric chooses to go against his god's demands and use his powers to do so, each time the Cleric uses one of his spells, the god says, "motha'fka!" and can do whatever he or she wants to the offending Cleric. Same with the Paladin. This applies to you in that the divine characters are trying to use their powers on a journey to ignore their gods' commands, and in so doing declare open season on themselves. Their god can reverse their healing, backfire spells, and generally wreak any sort of havoc it pleases. That'll get them to either stop betraying their deity or stop using their divine expense accounts to do so.
Kradlo 10-03-06, 12:14 PM	A lot depends on the campaign. Eberron, for example, has deities that rarely, if ever, directly interact with the world. Clerics in Eberron may be corrupt, violating the tenets of their faith, and still receive their divine spells and powers. In other campaigns, the gods take a very direct interest in the world, and jealously watch their followers. A cleric or paladin in that world would soon find his abilities failing if he did not follow the dictates of his deity. A cleric or paladin that converted to an enemy faith would find that the wrath of his former god is upon him. That could mean anything from making the Most Wanted list for the church ("Bring me the head of Sir Adtherp the traitor!"), to divine minions augmented like crazy coming for you, to divine bolts from the blue. Most of D&D realms fall somewhere in the middle. From the descriptions, I'd say that it leans a little toward the active god role motif, so the gods that were abandoned would take an active interest in meting out some retribution when the opportunity arose. As for the new faith, the church would outwardly welcome the two with open arms, but would always watch them closely. As mentioned above, once a traitor, always a traitor.