Am I missing something? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I missing something? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cryforge
02-07-07, 07:01 PM Okay.

Say I have a party of four 3rd-level characters. There is only one melee fighter in the group. An NPC villain who is a human 3rd-level fighter of the exact same skill as the PC fighter is considered a challenge to all four PCs as one encounter.

However, say I want to have the NPC call out the PC fighter so they can have a one-on-one duel. Would this be unfair? Unless I'm missing something, a 3rd-level human fighter is CR 3, and thus should be too powerful unless all four party members fight him.

Am I wrong? And if not, anyone see anything wrong with this?
BlackZed
02-07-07, 07:04 PM Not really.. An equal CR means that all party members are expected to use 1/4 of their resources to defeat the foe, resources meaning spells, hit points, and the like. For a one-on-one, it'd be a much closer battle, with opponents (theoretically) evenly matched. It means that the dice will have a lot more sway in what happens; a bad roll could spell insta-death or insta-kill.
Vaelan
02-07-07, 08:57 PM However, say I want to have the NPC call out the PC fighter so they can have a one-on-one duel. Would this be unfair?
According to what standard?

Unless I'm missing something, a 3rd-level human fighter is CR 3, and thus should be too powerful unless all four party members fight him.
It will be an even match. If it ends up happening, experience and treasure should be rewarded to the group as though it were a CR 7 encounter, perhaps CR 6 because there isn't quite as much risk to the party.
Gabriel Dian
02-07-07, 11:16 PM According to what standard?

It will be an even match. If it ends up happening, experience and treasure should be rewarded to the group as though it were a CR 7 encounter, perhaps CR 6 because there isn't quite as much risk to the party.

I don't agree on that one. XP should be awarded as follows, in my opinion:
1. Fighter fights opponent alone, no help from the rest of the group - He gets XP for a the encounter (the CR is much higher than CR 3, but that's immaterial to my point here). The group didn't do anything, thus the group gets nothing.
2. Fighter fights opponent, but group spent resources helping him (buffing mostly, but reconnaissance and healing [during the battle only] can count too). The fighter gets the most XP (higher than CR 3 encounter, but a lower CR than if he'd been fighting him alone), but the group gets some XP too (depends on what they did).
Nor'Morgwae
02-08-07, 04:09 AM The number of PCs doesn't change the CR of the encounter, just the distribution of EXP.

If the fighter fights alone then the fighter gets EXP alone. If the whole group fights then the EXP is split among them. If you upped the CR because the fighter was doing the battle on his own he would get WAY more EXP than the fight is worth because not only would he get all of the experience for the encounter but he would get it for an encounter well above his level, which it isn't.

As a side note, if the fighter gets a solo moment for glory and experience make sure the other players get them too (though not neccesarily at the same time). Players are jealous creatures.
Dunsel
02-08-07, 01:13 PM The 4 vs 1 battle is typical for an encounter the DM does not expect character death. As previously stated, the PCs are expected to use 1/4 of their resources. If this NPC is the BBEG, you may want to up his power a bit.

If the NPC is honorable, a one-on-one duel is perfectly acceptable. The PC will fight with an opponent, who is his equal, and take a 50/50 chance of defeat. Obviously, the NPC would rather fight one person than 4! You only need to justify this within the NPC's personality/background/class. If that is what the NPC would do, then do it. What are the stakes of the duel? Are the PCs to drop their treasure gained and walk awayif the NPC wins? If he loses, does he surrender (if not dead)? Are the PCs honorable?

I also agree, if the fighter is the only one to fight the NPC and he gets no help from the other PCs, he should get all the xps.
Gottwick
02-08-07, 01:22 PM If this fight is to the death, be very careful. The NPC is an equal opponent, so one dice roll can kill the PC. And at 3rd level, that's particularly possible.
Escef
02-08-07, 02:14 PM A 4th level party taking on a CR 4 creature is expected to use up 20% of their resources. This is 1/5 not 1/4! Good gawds, people! DMG 3.5e, pg. 49, lower left corner, under the heading "What's Challenging?".

...Phhhfff... Sorry, had to get that out. People keep touting the 1/4 figure which is, according to RAW, just plain wrong.

That said, a single level 3 character against a CR 3 creature is expected to basically be a coin flip.
BlackZed
02-08-07, 03:24 PM A 4th level party taking on a CR 4 creature is expected to use up 20% of their resources. This is 1/5 not 1/4! Good gawds, people! DMG 3.5e, pg. 49, lower left corner, under the heading "What's Challenging?".

Hissss! Yersh marster.. Forgive me for assuming logic came into it rather than slavishly adhering to the holy RAW..

I don't know why, I just felt a bit silly. Bah. I concede the point, but I'm determined to take your tone of voice (er.. tone of type? dratted computers and their technological doo-hickey stuffs..) in a negative fashion, forever holding you to the stigma of being a ..

Yeah, just wanted to over-do it and be dramatic just in case anyone reading it takes offense. :D That way, they'll see it's just absurd to be offended. Right? Er. yeah, I think I'd probably better leave.. .....sneaks out....
Escef
02-08-07, 03:40 PM Hey, I've just seen people saying 1/4 for a while (we're talking months now) and it finally dug far enough under my skin that it hit a nerve.

The 20% (1/5) figure is the theoretical goal for the CR system. In practice it never quite works right, but like all the rules it is a guideline. What one group takes easily is a TPK for another.

A properly tweaked 6th level wizard could TPK a 6th level party. But if said 6th level party had a lot of fire resistance items, suddenly the encounter turns from a TPK to a gangbeating. (And to be honest, I think when the designers set CRs for some creatures they just rolled a die and wrote down the result. :) )
BlackZed
02-08-07, 03:50 PM Oh I'm agreed with you on that one. We recently sat down and had an experimental "gladiator" game. We sat down to make 5th level equivalent characters with anywhere from a 0 to a 2 level penalty with the restriction that there would be no healing potions, no cleric or druid.. well flat out no healing. So we made up our battlers, and annihilated a maxed-out troll. Leveled up to test another monster. Got our collective butts handed to us by a CR4 (can't remember what in particular.. something really nasty). If it'd been undead, yeah I could have understood a bit more. It wasn't. And it's not as though we were too terribly twinked even. A aasimar sorceror, a human fighter4/monk1, a minotaur fighter, and a yuan-ti pureblood swordsage (I'd wanted to play one for ages, and hadn't had the opportunity).
Vaelan
02-09-07, 12:53 AM I don't agree on that one.
Since people have a tendency to ignore what isn't addressed to them, I figure I'd quote you just so say that what I typed below also applies to your opinion. It is goes against the only precedent in the rules and is more of a hassle than it is worth.

If the fighter fights alone then the fighter gets EXP alone.
Traps don't work that way, and the Rogue is the only one disarming them and usually the only one at risk if he fails. Since the only remotely relevant rules go against your statement, I'm going to go ahead and consider it refuted.

If the whole group fights then the EXP is split among them.
The group overcame an encounter and thus gains experience. How they overcome an encounter is irrelevant.

Rogue disarms a trap? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP.

Cleric turns a bunch of undead? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP.

Bard talks the party out of a situation? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP.

If you upped the CR because the fighter was doing the battle on his own he would get WAY more EXP than the fight is worth because not only would he get all of the experience for the encounter but he would get it for an encounter well above his level, which it isn't.
Except... you know... I never said that only the Fighter gets the XP. Don't bother pointing out supposed holes in my reasoning that are only created by that which you unsuccessfully attempt to force upon me. It simply isn't good form, though it is moderately amusing.

As a side note, if the fighter gets a solo moment for glory and experience make sure the other players get them too (though not neccesarily at the same time). Players are jealous creatures.
Or you can follow the precedent set by the rules and just concern yourself with the other people getting solo moments for glory, leaving XP out of it entirely.
khyron1144
02-09-07, 01:20 AM Traps don't work that way, and the Rogue is the only one disarming them and usually the only one at risk if he fails. Since the only remotely relevant rules go against your statement, I'm going to go ahead and consider it refuted.

Rogue disarms a trap? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP.

Cleric turns a bunch of undead? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP.

Bard talks the party out of a situation? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP.

I hat to floss a dead horse, but 2e had something called individual experience awards, where optionally, if a character does something on his or her own that is a challenge and benefits the party that character will recieve an experience awardbased on his class and the action undertaken.

For example, if a Thief, thief, thief, not rogue disarms a trap he gets EXP for it.

If a wizard makes judicious use of his spells he gets EXP for it.

If a fighter fights a monster and wins, he gets EXP for it.

Between that and the effective hit dice system for monsters vs. CR guesses, 2e had a better EXP system than 3e.

So you are right, by the book in 3e, the fighter gets hosed as far as EXP is concerned in sitautions where it is truly a solo kill.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cryforge 02-07-07, 07:01 PM	Okay. Say I have a party of four 3rd-level characters. There is only one melee fighter in the group. An NPC villain who is a human 3rd-level fighter of the exact same skill as the PC fighter is considered a challenge to all four PCs as one encounter. However, say I want to have the NPC call out the PC fighter so they can have a one-on-one duel. Would this be unfair? Unless I'm missing something, a 3rd-level human fighter is CR 3, and thus should be too powerful unless all four party members fight him. Am I wrong? And if not, anyone see anything wrong with this?
BlackZed 02-07-07, 07:04 PM	Not really.. An equal CR means that all party members are expected to use 1/4 of their resources to defeat the foe, resources meaning spells, hit points, and the like. For a one-on-one, it'd be a much closer battle, with opponents (theoretically) evenly matched. It means that the dice will have a lot more sway in what happens; a bad roll could spell insta-death or insta-kill.
Vaelan 02-07-07, 08:57 PM	However, say I want to have the NPC call out the PC fighter so they can have a one-on-one duel. Would this be unfair? According to what standard? Unless I'm missing something, a 3rd-level human fighter is CR 3, and thus should be too powerful unless all four party members fight him. It will be an even match. If it ends up happening, experience and treasure should be rewarded to the group as though it were a CR 7 encounter, perhaps CR 6 because there isn't quite as much risk to the party.
Gabriel Dian 02-07-07, 11:16 PM	According to what standard? It will be an even match. If it ends up happening, experience and treasure should be rewarded to the group as though it were a CR 7 encounter, perhaps CR 6 because there isn't quite as much risk to the party. I don't agree on that one. XP should be awarded as follows, in my opinion: 1. Fighter fights opponent alone, no help from the rest of the group - He gets XP for a the encounter (the CR is much higher than CR 3, but that's immaterial to my point here). The group didn't do anything, thus the group gets nothing. 2. Fighter fights opponent, but group spent resources helping him (buffing mostly, but reconnaissance and healing [during the battle only] can count too). The fighter gets the most XP (higher than CR 3 encounter, but a lower CR than if he'd been fighting him alone), but the group gets some XP too (depends on what they did).
Nor'Morgwae 02-08-07, 04:09 AM	The number of PCs doesn't change the CR of the encounter, just the distribution of EXP. If the fighter fights alone then the fighter gets EXP alone. If the whole group fights then the EXP is split among them. If you upped the CR because the fighter was doing the battle on his own he would get WAY more EXP than the fight is worth because not only would he get all of the experience for the encounter but he would get it for an encounter well above his level, which it isn't. As a side note, if the fighter gets a solo moment for glory and experience make sure the other players get them too (though not neccesarily at the same time). Players are jealous creatures.
Dunsel 02-08-07, 01:13 PM	The 4 vs 1 battle is typical for an encounter the DM does not expect character death. As previously stated, the PCs are expected to use 1/4 of their resources. If this NPC is the BBEG, you may want to up his power a bit. If the NPC is honorable, a one-on-one duel is perfectly acceptable. The PC will fight with an opponent, who is his equal, and take a 50/50 chance of defeat. Obviously, the NPC would rather fight one person than 4! You only need to justify this within the NPC's personality/background/class. If that is what the NPC would do, then do it. What are the stakes of the duel? Are the PCs to drop their treasure gained and walk awayif the NPC wins? If he loses, does he surrender (if not dead)? Are the PCs honorable? I also agree, if the fighter is the only one to fight the NPC and he gets no help from the other PCs, he should get all the xps.
Gottwick 02-08-07, 01:22 PM	If this fight is to the death, be very careful. The NPC is an equal opponent, so one dice roll can kill the PC. And at 3rd level, that's particularly possible.
Escef 02-08-07, 02:14 PM	A 4th level party taking on a CR 4 creature is expected to use up 20% of their resources. This is 1/5 not 1/4! Good gawds, people! DMG 3.5e, pg. 49, lower left corner, under the heading "What's Challenging?". ...Phhhfff... Sorry, had to get that out. People keep touting the 1/4 figure which is, according to RAW, just plain wrong. That said, a single level 3 character against a CR 3 creature is expected to basically be a coin flip.
BlackZed 02-08-07, 03:24 PM	A 4th level party taking on a CR 4 creature is expected to use up 20% of their resources. This is 1/5 not 1/4! Good gawds, people! DMG 3.5e, pg. 49, lower left corner, under the heading "What's Challenging?". Hissss! Yersh marster.. Forgive me for assuming logic came into it rather than slavishly adhering to the holy RAW.. I don't know why, I just felt a bit silly. Bah. I concede the point, but I'm determined to take your tone of voice (er.. tone of type? dratted computers and their technological doo-hickey stuffs..) in a negative fashion, forever holding you to the stigma of being a .. Yeah, just wanted to over-do it and be dramatic just in case anyone reading it takes offense. :D That way, they'll see it's just absurd to be offended. Right? Er. yeah, I think I'd probably better leave.. .....sneaks out....
Escef 02-08-07, 03:40 PM	Hey, I've just seen people saying 1/4 for a while (we're talking months now) and it finally dug far enough under my skin that it hit a nerve. The 20% (1/5) figure is the theoretical goal for the CR system. In practice it never quite works right, but like all the rules it is a guideline. What one group takes easily is a TPK for another. A properly tweaked 6th level wizard could TPK a 6th level party. But if said 6th level party had a lot of fire resistance items, suddenly the encounter turns from a TPK to a gangbeating. (And to be honest, I think when the designers set CRs for some creatures they just rolled a die and wrote down the result. :) )
BlackZed 02-08-07, 03:50 PM	Oh I'm agreed with you on that one. We recently sat down and had an experimental "gladiator" game. We sat down to make 5th level equivalent characters with anywhere from a 0 to a 2 level penalty with the restriction that there would be no healing potions, no cleric or druid.. well flat out no healing. So we made up our battlers, and annihilated a maxed-out troll. Leveled up to test another monster. Got our collective butts handed to us by a CR4 (can't remember what in particular.. something really nasty). If it'd been undead, yeah I could have understood a bit more. It wasn't. And it's not as though we were too terribly twinked even. A aasimar sorceror, a human fighter4/monk1, a minotaur fighter, and a yuan-ti pureblood swordsage (I'd wanted to play one for ages, and hadn't had the opportunity).
Vaelan 02-09-07, 12:53 AM	I don't agree on that one. Since people have a tendency to ignore what isn't addressed to them, I figure I'd quote you just so say that what I typed below also applies to your opinion. It is goes against the only precedent in the rules and is more of a hassle than it is worth. If the fighter fights alone then the fighter gets EXP alone. Traps don't work that way, and the Rogue is the only one disarming them and usually the only one at risk if he fails. Since the only remotely relevant rules go against your statement, I'm going to go ahead and consider it refuted. If the whole group fights then the EXP is split among them. The group overcame an encounter and thus gains experience. How they overcome an encounter is irrelevant. Rogue disarms a trap? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP. Cleric turns a bunch of undead? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP. Bard talks the party out of a situation? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP. If you upped the CR because the fighter was doing the battle on his own he would get WAY more EXP than the fight is worth because not only would he get all of the experience for the encounter but he would get it for an encounter well above his level, which it isn't. Except... you know... I never said that only the Fighter gets the XP. Don't bother pointing out supposed holes in my reasoning that are only created by that which you unsuccessfully attempt to force upon me. It simply isn't good form, though it is moderately amusing. As a side note, if the fighter gets a solo moment for glory and experience make sure the other players get them too (though not neccesarily at the same time). Players are jealous creatures. Or you can follow the precedent set by the rules and just concern yourself with the other people getting solo moments for glory, leaving XP out of it entirely.
khyron1144 02-09-07, 01:20 AM	Traps don't work that way, and the Rogue is the only one disarming them and usually the only one at risk if he fails. Since the only remotely relevant rules go against your statement, I'm going to go ahead and consider it refuted. Rogue disarms a trap? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP. Cleric turns a bunch of undead? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP. Bard talks the party out of a situation? Party overcomes the encounter and gains XP. I hat to floss a dead horse, but 2e had something called individual experience awards, where optionally, if a character does something on his or her own that is a challenge and benefits the party that character will recieve an experience awardbased on his class and the action undertaken. For example, if a Thief, thief, thief, not rogue disarms a trap he gets EXP for it. If a wizard makes judicious use of his spells he gets EXP for it. If a fighter fights a monster and wins, he gets EXP for it. Between that and the effective hit dice system for monsters vs. CR guesses, 2e had a better EXP system than 3e. So you are right, by the book in 3e, the fighter gets hosed as far as EXP is concerned in sitautions where it is truly a solo kill.