Am I out of touch? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I out of touch? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kalanth
06-30-07, 02:09 PM I just recently left my gaming group of 4 years and joined as DM for a group that had been playing for a while. When I spoke with the "leader" of the group, he laid it out simple for me. Two players were heavy RP, one was just learning the ropes, and one was combat only. So I was prepared for this, so I thought.

After three sessions with this new group I find that little of the information I got before hand seems to be correct. One player is medium RP, one is light, one is learning, and one refuses to RP because he is afraid the game or DM will change before lvl 6 arrives.

I have been working all the tricks that I can to bring out the heavy RP (which is my prefered style) from these guys. I have provided questionaires for them to fill out in character and asked them to give detailed descriptions of their appearences. I have done the low end stuff to make them comfortable, where the RP is minimal but yet present, I have tried to pour it on thick as well. Nothing, no reaction from any of them in terms of RP. The closest I got was when a character pocketed some coin while he was searching around in another room than the group. Its a real shame because they are comming up on some heavy RP portions of the game where they are in the midst of a Masquerade Ball (currently introducing them to Eberron through the Modules before I go into my own materials)

Am I so used to the old group that I can't adapt? Or am I just so out of touch that I don't know how to relate to new players anymore? I am not sure what to do here, but the lack of RP is really driving me bonkers.
UltimateReality
06-30-07, 02:28 PM I have provided questionaires for them to fill out in character and asked them to give detailed descriptions of their appearences.Ooh, be careful with that. My group didn't like it. Even the ones that liked RPing found a lot of those questionnaires too long, and they wanted to actually play their character instead of fill out a survey about him. As for descriptions -- some players aren't that hot with words. I've always encouraged character portraits. You can shamelessly rip some from the NWN Vaults website if you don't have graphic artists in the game.

As for encouraging them to RP more...ask them what their characters want in the game. What are their goals? Do they have basic backstories? Work your story in around their characters, so they're automatically invested in what happens.

It is quite likely that you are used to your old group. Established groups find out what works and use that pretty consistently. It will probably take you some time to find your groove with this group. Keep the lines of communication open. Ask them for examples of the type of RP they want, and the kind of stuff they did in the past. Get a sense for what works for them, and try to incorporate that into your game.
Kalanth
06-30-07, 03:49 PM Ooh, be careful with that. My group didn't like it. Even the ones that liked RPing found a lot of those questionnaires too long, and they wanted to actually play their character instead of fill out a survey about him.

Wish I had thought of that, because as I look back on it know I realize it was done because my old group enjoyed such things...

As for descriptions -- some players aren't that hot with words. I've always encouraged character portraits. You can shamelessly rip some from the NWN Vaults website if you don't have graphic artists in the game.

I am going to remember this. I told them the descriptions did not have to rival some epic writers descriptions, but just provide something to give you a visual of. The idea of "steeling" from NWN, or DDO for the warforged, is a good one that I will suggest.

As for encouraging them to RP more...ask them what their characters want in the game. What are their goals? Do they have basic backstories? Work your story in around their characters, so they're automatically invested in what happens.

I kind of did that in the questionaire. However, I gather I should just be more blunt and go to them individually for that information.

It is quite likely that you are used to your old group. Established groups find out what works and use that pretty consistently. It will probably take you some time to find your groove with this group. Keep the lines of communication open. Ask them for examples of the type of RP they want, and the kind of stuff they did in the past. Get a sense for what works for them, and try to incorporate that into your game.

It's all great advice. I am still unsure excatly how I will pull this off, however. Time spent with one is a crutch that I am just realizing I was leaning on heavily. If anyone else has suggestions as to how I could break my old habbits and help bring forward the RP from these guys, I am all ears.
Dan Hemmens
06-30-07, 04:24 PM At the risk of sounding like I'm taking the mickey, what do you actually mean by "heavy RP"?
Kalanth
06-30-07, 04:56 PM At the risk of sounding like I'm taking the mickey, what do you actually mean by "heavy RP"?

I prefer a more RP style. This means description of actions, all comments are in character, emersion into the world you are playing, a sense of humanity to the characters (love, hate, relationships, sadness, jelousy, and so on). I realize that many groups don't really want to play in such detail, but that is how I prefer (and run my NPC's so at least the DM is having some "his way" fun).
Warduke
06-30-07, 05:17 PM Heavy RP can mean so many different things. Now first and foremost I love RP. Some DMs get waaaay too involved in their "RP Heavy" games imho. For me, and most the people Ive played with, RP is cool up to a point. The only reason I mention this is your "Masquerade Ball" sent shivers down my spine with bad memories of a DM trying to pull this off in a game I played.

There was little excitement at this "ball", just an elaborate setup for some basic gather information. Add in the one player who gets off on "partying" with the hundreds of NPCs attending and you get 2-3 hours of complete boredom for the other 4 players. The DM and the other player enjoyed themselves I guess.

Not all players play D&D to play the lives of their characters. Many just want to play the careers of their characters. To be honest if I wanted to go and pick up on women, drink and dance at a party Id do it in the real world. I play D&D to RP things I can't do in RL. If you have a full group that is into that kind of thing than fine, but you have already stated you do not.
1red13
06-30-07, 05:30 PM Do you know any of these people very well, or are they new acquantances. Some might be a reluctant to open up to someone new and may require a little time.
Dan Hemmens
06-30-07, 06:04 PM I prefer a more RP style. This means description of actions, all comments are in character, emersion into the world you are playing, a sense of humanity to the characters (love, hate, relationships, sadness, jelousy, and so on). I realize that many groups don't really want to play in such detail, but that is how I prefer (and run my NPC's so at least the DM is having some "his way" fun).

Just checking, because "RP" means different things to different people (your definition diverges widely from mine, for example).

Are you starting a new game, or are you mid-session with an old one. If you're starting a new game, I'd make two suggestions.

Firstly, don't play "adventurers". If you want to focus on immersion and character, have the PCs play a group of people who know and trust each other, who have a specific place within the world.

Secondly, narrow your focus. Make the game about the PCs doing what they do in the place where they live, not about stuff that's bigger and more important than them happening on the other side of the world.

Am I making any sense here?
MarkB
06-30-07, 06:17 PM Sounds like you've simply got a serious clash of styles here. If only two of the players are into RP at all, and then only medium-to-light, it's not fair on the group to expect them to adapt to your playing style - you're only one member of that group, after all.

I'd suggest meeting them at least halfway, perhaps even further, and finding the group's own natural pace. Once you get to know them, you can then decide whether you can, or should, push them towards a heavier RP style.
UltimateReality
07-01-07, 12:19 AM Wish I had thought of that, because as I look back on it know I realize it was done because my old group enjoyed such things...No worries. I tried it like twice before I realized it was having an adverse effect. The ones who liked RP found it boring, the ones who didn't really like RP found it like a chore, and it turned them off even more. I stopped that stuff. As far as backstories go, I've taken dictation on those before. Some people just aren't confident in their writing skills. All that matters to me is that I get the backstory, and I can type pretty fast. :)

I am going to remember this. I told them the descriptions did not have to rival some epic writers descriptions, but just provide something to give you a visual of. The idea of "steeling" from NWN, or DDO for the warforged, is a good one that I will suggest.No prob. :) My characters always have cover sheets now with a name and portrait.

I kind of did that in the questionaire. However, I gather I should just be more blunt and go to them individually for that information.The best time to do this is during/just after character creation. Ask them what they want to play before they start assigning their point buy. Ask concept-focused questions, and let those guide the mechanics selection. (Think of how you'd teach a new player to play... We usually asked them to pick a favourite character from a book or movie to emulate, and showed them the different ways we could make it in D&D mechanics.)

help bring forward the RP from these guys, I am all ears.Talk to them about the kind of RP you like. Ask them what kind they like. Work to incorporate into the sessions and storylines.

Edit: yeah, that was helpful of me. :rolleyes: Sorry....okay, you need to discuss this on two levels: the character/in-game level, and the metagame level. The metagame level is where you discuss descriptions of actions, OOC comments, the idea of character goals and personality and so forth. The in-game level is where you start asking them those one-on-one questions about that particular character: what's his name? His birthday? Who are his friends and enemies? What did he want to be when he grew up? If they're really feeling uncreative, snag a copy of the Hero Builder's Guidebook and have them roll randomly for stuff. (And assure them it's okay to pick something else if they don't like the result!)

I prefer a more RP style. This means description of actions, all comments are in character, emersion into the world you are playing, a sense of humanity to the characters (love, hate, relationships, sadness, jelousy, and so on).All comments in character is really hard to do. You will probably have to present it to the group as a one-off trial "oddity" kind of thing. Maybe hand out a certain amount of poker chips to players, and they have to spend them to make OOC comments. Descriptions of actions can also be hard if you're not used to it. I mean, how many different ways can I really describe hitting the guy with my axe? Some players may dig writing down some phrases or ideas beforehand, but most probably won't. Take the initiative here. If they don't describe the results of their attack rolls, do it for them. And be sure to do it for the enemies.

As far as immersion goes, you need to make the world interesting to the players. Find something in it that grabs their interest, and run with it. Some players will naturally gravitate towards elements of the setting -- say, the idea of warforged and the Lord of Blades, or the towers of Sharn. Incorporate those ideas into your campaign. You'll know when you've found these areas, because the players will jump at the smallest hook or even take the plot there of their own volition. Sometimes they write it into their backstory and character.

For NPCs, they need to be realistic. That is, the PCs must be able to think of them as real people. But they also need one distinguishing feature to be remembered by. There are many, many shopkeepers, but the PCs have yet to forget the fruit merchant I used once in a session two years ago, because he gestured wildly, wore clashing colours, and was chasing his renegade horse and cart down the road. Ditto the sappy chick in the wizard bar reading bad romance novels. Just give the NPC one oddity, or introduce them in an odd situation. Otherwise, they can be pretty normal people. (And don't even think of trying accents unless you're good at them.)
Kalanth
07-01-07, 10:58 AM It is all sound advise. I will make sure to tone down the amount of RP that I put out into the game. I believe my biggest shortfall was not investigating what the players wanted and just going off an assumption. Hopefully this can be repaired during the course of the game.

Ultimate, I am definetly going to take the suggestion you had for brining out the RP from the players. Hopefully I can get them to open up.

These players are all new to me, and the last session was only the third time I had ever met with them before. It is no easy task jumping into a game with complete strangers, but hopefully this experience will make me a better DM in the long run.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kalanth 06-30-07, 02:09 PM	I just recently left my gaming group of 4 years and joined as DM for a group that had been playing for a while. When I spoke with the "leader" of the group, he laid it out simple for me. Two players were heavy RP, one was just learning the ropes, and one was combat only. So I was prepared for this, so I thought. After three sessions with this new group I find that little of the information I got before hand seems to be correct. One player is medium RP, one is light, one is learning, and one refuses to RP because he is afraid the game or DM will change before lvl 6 arrives. I have been working all the tricks that I can to bring out the heavy RP (which is my prefered style) from these guys. I have provided questionaires for them to fill out in character and asked them to give detailed descriptions of their appearences. I have done the low end stuff to make them comfortable, where the RP is minimal but yet present, I have tried to pour it on thick as well. Nothing, no reaction from any of them in terms of RP. The closest I got was when a character pocketed some coin while he was searching around in another room than the group. Its a real shame because they are comming up on some heavy RP portions of the game where they are in the midst of a Masquerade Ball (currently introducing them to Eberron through the Modules before I go into my own materials) Am I so used to the old group that I can't adapt? Or am I just so out of touch that I don't know how to relate to new players anymore? I am not sure what to do here, but the lack of RP is really driving me bonkers.
UltimateReality 06-30-07, 02:28 PM	I have provided questionaires for them to fill out in character and asked them to give detailed descriptions of their appearences.Ooh, be careful with that. My group didn't like it. Even the ones that liked RPing found a lot of those questionnaires too long, and they wanted to actually play their character instead of fill out a survey about him. As for descriptions -- some players aren't that hot with words. I've always encouraged character portraits. You can shamelessly rip some from the NWN Vaults website if you don't have graphic artists in the game. As for encouraging them to RP more...ask them what their characters want in the game. What are their goals? Do they have basic backstories? Work your story in around their characters, so they're automatically invested in what happens. It is quite likely that you are used to your old group. Established groups find out what works and use that pretty consistently. It will probably take you some time to find your groove with this group. Keep the lines of communication open. Ask them for examples of the type of RP they want, and the kind of stuff they did in the past. Get a sense for what works for them, and try to incorporate that into your game.
Kalanth 06-30-07, 03:49 PM	Ooh, be careful with that. My group didn't like it. Even the ones that liked RPing found a lot of those questionnaires too long, and they wanted to actually play their character instead of fill out a survey about him. Wish I had thought of that, because as I look back on it know I realize it was done because my old group enjoyed such things... As for descriptions -- some players aren't that hot with words. I've always encouraged character portraits. You can shamelessly rip some from the NWN Vaults website if you don't have graphic artists in the game. I am going to remember this. I told them the descriptions did not have to rival some epic writers descriptions, but just provide something to give you a visual of. The idea of "steeling" from NWN, or DDO for the warforged, is a good one that I will suggest. As for encouraging them to RP more...ask them what their characters want in the game. What are their goals? Do they have basic backstories? Work your story in around their characters, so they're automatically invested in what happens. I kind of did that in the questionaire. However, I gather I should just be more blunt and go to them individually for that information. It is quite likely that you are used to your old group. Established groups find out what works and use that pretty consistently. It will probably take you some time to find your groove with this group. Keep the lines of communication open. Ask them for examples of the type of RP they want, and the kind of stuff they did in the past. Get a sense for what works for them, and try to incorporate that into your game. It's all great advice. I am still unsure excatly how I will pull this off, however. Time spent with one is a crutch that I am just realizing I was leaning on heavily. If anyone else has suggestions as to how I could break my old habbits and help bring forward the RP from these guys, I am all ears.
Dan Hemmens 06-30-07, 04:24 PM	At the risk of sounding like I'm taking the mickey, what do you actually mean by "heavy RP"?
Kalanth 06-30-07, 04:56 PM	At the risk of sounding like I'm taking the mickey, what do you actually mean by "heavy RP"? I prefer a more RP style. This means description of actions, all comments are in character, emersion into the world you are playing, a sense of humanity to the characters (love, hate, relationships, sadness, jelousy, and so on). I realize that many groups don't really want to play in such detail, but that is how I prefer (and run my NPC's so at least the DM is having some "his way" fun).
Warduke 06-30-07, 05:17 PM	Heavy RP can mean so many different things. Now first and foremost I love RP. Some DMs get waaaay too involved in their "RP Heavy" games imho. For me, and most the people Ive played with, RP is cool up to a point. The only reason I mention this is your "Masquerade Ball" sent shivers down my spine with bad memories of a DM trying to pull this off in a game I played. There was little excitement at this "ball", just an elaborate setup for some basic gather information. Add in the one player who gets off on "partying" with the hundreds of NPCs attending and you get 2-3 hours of complete boredom for the other 4 players. The DM and the other player enjoyed themselves I guess. Not all players play D&D to play the lives of their characters. Many just want to play the careers of their characters. To be honest if I wanted to go and pick up on women, drink and dance at a party Id do it in the real world. I play D&D to RP things I can't do in RL. If you have a full group that is into that kind of thing than fine, but you have already stated you do not.
1red13 06-30-07, 05:30 PM	Do you know any of these people very well, or are they new acquantances. Some might be a reluctant to open up to someone new and may require a little time.
Dan Hemmens 06-30-07, 06:04 PM	I prefer a more RP style. This means description of actions, all comments are in character, emersion into the world you are playing, a sense of humanity to the characters (love, hate, relationships, sadness, jelousy, and so on). I realize that many groups don't really want to play in such detail, but that is how I prefer (and run my NPC's so at least the DM is having some "his way" fun). Just checking, because "RP" means different things to different people (your definition diverges widely from mine, for example). Are you starting a new game, or are you mid-session with an old one. If you're starting a new game, I'd make two suggestions. Firstly, don't play "adventurers". If you want to focus on immersion and character, have the PCs play a group of people who know and trust each other, who have a specific place within the world. Secondly, narrow your focus. Make the game about the PCs doing what they do in the place where they live, not about stuff that's bigger and more important than them happening on the other side of the world. Am I making any sense here?
MarkB 06-30-07, 06:17 PM	Sounds like you've simply got a serious clash of styles here. If only two of the players are into RP at all, and then only medium-to-light, it's not fair on the group to expect them to adapt to your playing style - you're only one member of that group, after all. I'd suggest meeting them at least halfway, perhaps even further, and finding the group's own natural pace. Once you get to know them, you can then decide whether you can, or should, push them towards a heavier RP style.
UltimateReality 07-01-07, 12:19 AM	Wish I had thought of that, because as I look back on it know I realize it was done because my old group enjoyed such things...No worries. I tried it like twice before I realized it was having an adverse effect. The ones who liked RP found it boring, the ones who didn't really like RP found it like a chore, and it turned them off even more. I stopped that stuff. As far as backstories go, I've taken dictation on those before. Some people just aren't confident in their writing skills. All that matters to me is that I get the backstory, and I can type pretty fast. :) I am going to remember this. I told them the descriptions did not have to rival some epic writers descriptions, but just provide something to give you a visual of. The idea of "steeling" from NWN, or DDO for the warforged, is a good one that I will suggest.No prob. :) My characters always have cover sheets now with a name and portrait. I kind of did that in the questionaire. However, I gather I should just be more blunt and go to them individually for that information.The best time to do this is during/just after character creation. Ask them what they want to play before they start assigning their point buy. Ask concept-focused questions, and let those guide the mechanics selection. (Think of how you'd teach a new player to play... We usually asked them to pick a favourite character from a book or movie to emulate, and showed them the different ways we could make it in D&D mechanics.) help bring forward the RP from these guys, I am all ears.Talk to them about the kind of RP you like. Ask them what kind they like. Work to incorporate into the sessions and storylines. Edit: yeah, that was helpful of me. :rolleyes: Sorry....okay, you need to discuss this on two levels: the character/in-game level, and the metagame level. The metagame level is where you discuss descriptions of actions, OOC comments, the idea of character goals and personality and so forth. The in-game level is where you start asking them those one-on-one questions about that particular character: what's his name? His birthday? Who are his friends and enemies? What did he want to be when he grew up? If they're really feeling uncreative, snag a copy of the Hero Builder's Guidebook and have them roll randomly for stuff. (And assure them it's okay to pick something else if they don't like the result!) I prefer a more RP style. This means description of actions, all comments are in character, emersion into the world you are playing, a sense of humanity to the characters (love, hate, relationships, sadness, jelousy, and so on).All comments in character is really hard to do. You will probably have to present it to the group as a one-off trial "oddity" kind of thing. Maybe hand out a certain amount of poker chips to players, and they have to spend them to make OOC comments. Descriptions of actions can also be hard if you're not used to it. I mean, how many different ways can I really describe hitting the guy with my axe? Some players may dig writing down some phrases or ideas beforehand, but most probably won't. Take the initiative here. If they don't describe the results of their attack rolls, do it for them. And be sure to do it for the enemies. As far as immersion goes, you need to make the world interesting to the players. Find something in it that grabs their interest, and run with it. Some players will naturally gravitate towards elements of the setting -- say, the idea of warforged and the Lord of Blades, or the towers of Sharn. Incorporate those ideas into your campaign. You'll know when you've found these areas, because the players will jump at the smallest hook or even take the plot there of their own volition. Sometimes they write it into their backstory and character. For NPCs, they need to be realistic. That is, the PCs must be able to think of them as real people. But they also need one distinguishing feature to be remembered by. There are many, many shopkeepers, but the PCs have yet to forget the fruit merchant I used once in a session two years ago, because he gestured wildly, wore clashing colours, and was chasing his renegade horse and cart down the road. Ditto the sappy chick in the wizard bar reading bad romance novels. Just give the NPC one oddity, or introduce them in an odd situation. Otherwise, they can be pretty normal people. (And don't even think of trying accents unless you're good at them.)
Kalanth 07-01-07, 10:58 AM	It is all sound advise. I will make sure to tone down the amount of RP that I put out into the game. I believe my biggest shortfall was not investigating what the players wanted and just going off an assumption. Hopefully this can be repaired during the course of the game. Ultimate, I am definetly going to take the suggestion you had for brining out the RP from the players. Hopefully I can get them to open up. These players are all new to me, and the last session was only the third time I had ever met with them before. It is no easy task jumping into a game with complete strangers, but hopefully this experience will make me a better DM in the long run.