Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 12:31 PM	Just to clarify. I have a Warrior of Darkness with Malign Fury Malign fury: character can take a full attack action in conjunction with a move or move-equivalent action, usable 3 times per day. The character (npc) has spring attack. The argument was that the character can't use spring attack with Malign fury. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be able to. I ruled that he could and that I would research more into it. I like to pay by the rules and make my characters no exception. (One of the players is a powergamer who proceeded to looked up my NPC) I found this quite rude but I want to be fair. The other's had no problem with it. By rules who is right?
WCH 08-18-05, 12:36 PM	Why exactly do your players know what ability he has? And why haven't you given the powergamer a massive penalty for cheating? Yes, looking up your NPCs constitutes cheating. I'd make him roll 4d6, and he permanently loses one point from each ability score he rolls (1 for Str, 2 for Dex, etc). Looking at your notes is completely unacceptable and must be suitably punished. As for your question, of course he can. Spring Attack lets you split a move action in half, and Malign Fury lets you use a standard action as a full attack action. On what basis do they say you can't do this?
Meorn 08-18-05, 12:37 PM	Well... if the rules expresses that he can't do that, he can't. If the rules says nothing about this cumulation, I don't see why not.
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 12:39 PM	Why exactly do your players know what ability he has? And why haven't you given the powergamer a massive penalty for cheating? Yes, looking up your NPCs constitutes cheating. I'd make him roll 4d6, and he permanently loses one point from each ability score he rolls (1 for Str, 2 for Dex, etc). Looking at your notes is completely unacceptable and must be suitably punished. As for your question, of course he can. Spring Attack lets you split a move action in half, and Malign Fury lets you use a standard action as a full attack action. On what basis do they say you can't do this? I'm new to being a DM, he usually DM's himself. So I didn't really know how to react for this is the first time such a situation has accured. Next question the character will eventually have the Whirlwind Attack feat. I assume he will be able to move whirlwind attack and continue moving. Does this mean everyone he attacks from spring attack won't be able to get an attack of oppertunity by core rules? Only rules I can think of are Malign fury: character can take a full attack action in conjunction with a move or move-equivalent action, usable 3 times per day. Spring Attack: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. Whirlwind Attack: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. Please let me know if there is anything I might be forgetting.
DraconsNighthawk 08-18-05, 12:42 PM	What book is malign fury at??
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 12:44 PM	Book of Vile Darkness. Prestige Class Warrior of Darkness (Black Magic Oil) - listed under
daponz 08-18-05, 12:52 PM	I guess you can combine those three feats to execute a move, whirlwind attack and further move. As you attack with a melee weapon the spring attack allows you to move, then the malign fury kicks in which allows a full attack option, and this full attack option is used for the whirlwind, thereafter you move up to your max distance allowed. This is legit, imho, because this is the only thing this character is ever going to do, as all his feats are going in this feat tree. Other characters have other things going for them. And if your player whines, use ranger/fighter with able sniper and some levels in order of the bow initiate, hide/shoot/move, hide/shoot/move. If you don't spot him, your dead...
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 01:01 PM	He was whining when the NPC was helping them. (Which I feel is even dumber) I mean if he wanted to make a Mellee warior than why create an Archmage?
VinylVillichi 08-18-05, 01:05 PM	I don't know this particular player (DM) but I do know that if it had happened in our group the reason would have been legitimately to make sure you weren't misreading the rules, since you are newer to DMing. I believe he should have asked your permission and stated why, but well, not everyone is that courteous. Powergamers live for mixing and matching feats and skills to get as much cool stuff out of them as possible. He may have been douclechecking because it is such a good idea that he wanted to have it clear in his mind to use in the future himself. I may be giving him too much benefit of the doubt. Maybe he was scouring for mistakes to make you look bad and get what he wants for his character without any challenge. I don't know. I know you seem offended. I don't blame you, but don't always jump to the worst possible motivation for him.
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 01:13 PM	I don't mind that, however taking the sheet showed him the character hit points and more. I know that the NPC is going to level up and gain and change a lot, however the thing that really upset me was that my whole plot that they aren't aware of yet involved this NPC spliting up with the party and becoming the maing bad guy. I wish he hadn't have looked at it, now he has insite, which really is what really is bugging me.
DraconsNighthawk 08-18-05, 01:16 PM	Hmm. I read it. Now spring attack says that when using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move before or after the attack, provided the distance moved is no greater then your speed. Attack action via melee weapon is describe as follows:With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponenet within five feet. (Opponionts within five feet are considered abjacent to you). Hmm.. bit of a toss up on this one, since it says a full round on a move action. Just to be safe, just charge and kill in the first round if lucky, but I do not belive you can move before and after using that ability, seeing as spring doesnt allow you to use a full round ability. Gah! I'm confused. I can't help you, its somethign I need to think about.
weasel fierce 08-18-05, 01:24 PM	The DM cant cheat. Make a blanket rule from this point on though. Anyone who digs through the DM's notes, looses a level of experience per every 5 minutes spent doing so.
Inigo Carmine 08-18-05, 01:28 PM	You can't use spring attack in conjunction with that ability. Spring attack lets you make an attack action with a melee weapon in the middle of a move, not a full attack. It doesn't work for the same reason you couldn't "spring full attack" with 3.0 haste.
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 01:30 PM	Where is the clarification on that? I read attack action. If that's the case why can't it be a full attack or a whirlwind attack if your able to do it and move? I would just like rule clarification on this.
Inigo Carmine 08-18-05, 01:41 PM	A melee attack action is a single attack (or disarm, sunder, trip or grapple). It's what you're allowed to do for an AoO or multiple times in a full attack. my PHB is at home, but you can use the SRD, specifically this page (http://geocities.com/sovelior/srd/actionsInCombat.html). Read everything (including the chart) up until the 'casting a spell" heading. As an aside, no, you can't whirlwind-spring-attack either for the same reason (though with that malign fury ability you can take a move action before or after the whirlwind attack because a whirlwind attack is a full attack action, not its own special fullround action)
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 01:44 PM	However generally that's all you can make when you move is a single attack. Malign Fury overwrites this. Since now you can move and do a full attack otherwise by your logic I couldn't use the ability to make a full movement and use Malign Fury either. There is nothing in the feat itself other than that generic thing that applies to both scenarios to stop me from doing so, am I correct? This is what I see as a counter argument: Multiple Attacks A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full attack action in order to get more than one attack. (Obviously this is not the case with Malign Fury).' Again Whirlwind Attack: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Seems like it says full attack action to me, not full round action.
Murrdox 08-18-05, 02:03 PM	As an aside, no, you can't whirlwind-spring-attack either for the same reason (though with that malign fury ability you can take a move action before or after the whirlwind attack because a whirlwind attack is a full attack action, not its own special fullround action) Malign Fury allows you to do a Full Attack and take your full move action as well. The text for Spring Attack only specifies that you get to move before and after your attack. Spring Attack in the PHB isn't written with "Malign Fury" in mind: there is no way using standard rules one would be able to use Full Attack plus Spring Attack. It wouldn't make sense for the Spring Attack rules to say "Just in case you somehow manage to pull this off - you cannot spring attack and full attack in the same turn". Basically Malign Fury allows you to replace a single attack with a Full Attack. Thus anything you can do (including Spring Attack) that you can do as part of a Move Action is able to be combined with Malign Fury.
Inigo Carmine 08-18-05, 02:18 PM	Since now you can move and do a full attack otherwise by your logic I couldn't use the ability to make a full movement and use Malign Fury either. Where does my logic prevent you from doing this? There is nothing in the feat itself other than that generic thing that applies to both scenarios to stop me from doing so, am I correct? I can't understand what you're saying here. you make too many references and I'm not sure what references what. This is what I see as a counter argument: Multiple Attacks A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full attack action in order to get more than one attack. (Obviously this is not the case with Malign Fury).' Actually, that still is the case with Malign fury, at least the way you quoted the ability initially. You're still required to take the full attack action in order to take the full attack action (boy is that redundant), you're just allowed to combine it with a move. here is your description of the ability: Malign fury: character can take a full attack action in conjunction with a move or move-equivalent action, usable 3 times per day. Whirlwind Attack: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Seems like it says full attack action to me, not full round action. ...yes?...That's what i said it was...time to quote myself now... though with that malign fury ability you can take a move action before or after the whirlwind attack because a whirlwind attack is a full attack action, not its own special fullround action
milow 08-18-05, 02:23 PM	You certainly won't be able to use whilwind attack with this ability even if you decide that spring attack can be used with Malign Fury. Note the final paragraph is the Whirlwind description: When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. You can't use Whirlwind and Malign Fury at the same time since Malign Fury give extra attacks which you forfeit. I also tend to think that you can't use spring attack with Malign Fury, but it would seem that the description of Malign Fury is a bit brief anyway. For example, can you do one attack, move, do another attack. Since you can normally take a 5ft step between attacks in a normal full round attack, I would think you could. but definately a lot of gray areas with this feat.
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 02:25 PM	What you didn't mention is that behind the same argument by pure rules... I can not use Malign fury to move and make and full attack action. Those rules (the same ones your using to defend your stance on spring attack) clearly state that a you can only make a single attack action with a move equivalent action. So Malign fury is useless and can never be used. Now Malign fury overwrites this. You can’t use the same argument then, otherwise you can’t use it period. It’s an all or none thing. Whirlwind Attack: Another thing I am iffy on. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. (I didn't get any bonuses from the whirlwind attack) I used the ability before the attack. However I understand why I can not spring attack with the Whirlwind attack, however I see nothing that provides me to run up and Whirlwind attack.
Inigo Carmine 08-18-05, 02:31 PM	Malign Fury allows you to do a Full Attack and take your full move action as well. on this we agree, yes. The text for Spring Attack only specifies that you get to move before and after your attack. kinda. It specifies a little more than that. Spring Attack: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. The attack action is a specific thing, differentiated from the full attack action. Spring Attack in the PHB isn't written with "Malign Fury" in mind: there is no way using standard rules one would be able to use Full Attack plus Spring Attack. It wouldn't make sense for the Spring Attack rules to say "Just in case you somehow manage to pull this off - you cannot spring attack and full attack in the same turn". You're right, it wasn't written with Malign Fury in mind. This means the burden of changing the way the rules work in general is on the Malign Fury Description, not Spring Attack. And you're right that in the standard rules you weren't able to full attack and spring attack. Back in 3.0 when haste gave you an extra partial again you could make a move and a full attack, but this didn't let you make a full attack in conjunction with spring attack. Basically Malign Fury allows you to replace a single attack with a Full Attack. Thus anything you can do (including Spring Attack) that you can do as part of a Move Action is able to be combined with Malign Fury. That's basically not what Malign Fury does. Be careful about trying to simplify it like that. I don't have access to the actual description of it, but the one originally quoted by goofster does not allow what you say. If it allowed what you said, you would be able to make a full attack as an AoO, or, make multiple full attacks in a round (as a full attack is a series of attack actions). Spring attack allows you to split up your move around an attack action (with a melee weapon); its a very specific type of action. A Full attack action is not the same thing as an attack action. I can't think of a good example that's not already precluded because its not a melee attack, but I can think of some for ranged attacks. Take shot on the run, which is similar to spring attack: From the SRD Shot on the Run: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. There are some forms of ranged attacks you cannot use with this because they are not attack actions. Manyshot is a good example. Manyshot is a ranged attack, but it's not an attack action. Therefore, it cannot be used with shot on the run.
Inigo Carmine 08-18-05, 02:40 PM	What you didn't mention is that behind the same argument by pure rules... I can not use Malign fury to move and make and full attack action. Those rules (the same ones your using to defend your stance on spring attack) clearly state that a you can only make a single attack action with a move equivalent action. So Malign fury is useless and can never be used. No, because as you say, Malign Fury supercedes these rules. I think your misunderstanding is with spring attack. Spring attack is essentially "split your move action around a melee attack action". Spring Attack is NOT "split your move action around however many melee attacks can get in a round you take a move action in." Malign Fury makes no modification to attack actions or spring attack. It just modifies that when you take a move action, you are allowed to make a full attack instead of just a standard action.
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 02:42 PM	In that same ruling a Move Action can only be accommodated with a Single Attack Action... :rolleyes: Spring Attack follows that same trend. :rolleyes: Spring Attack follows the exact same pattern as move action with a single attack action, just now you may move before and afterwards due to the feat. The core rules did not change at all. You can only make a single attack action with a move equivalent action. (Do you not see that they just used the same justification, nothing else changed, just the fact that the feet lets you move before and after?) Malign Fury changes this. (Now both are changed since they use the same argument and Malign Fury overwites this argument for one.)
a_psh 08-18-05, 02:55 PM	Spring Attack explicitly states that it allows you to move, make an attack action, and move again, with the two moves together being no more than your movement rate. A full attack is not an attack action, so it cannot be inserted into a Spring Attack routine.
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 03:00 PM	Those same rules also state that a Move action can only be used with a Attack Action. (So again same argument) I have decided that I'm ruling it, since the ability and the feat's in the class progress your for the spring attack movement. Their is no clear cut answer against it, other than the same one it overwrites in another scenario. Since Spring Attack was written withouth Malign Fury in mind. Since Spring Attack follows the exact trend as a move action can only be used with an attack action. No different than what was originaly stated - A move action can only be made with a attack action. Since Malign Fury states that you can make a full attack action with a move action. It will be used. I think that this is fair adjustment as a dm.
Inigo Carmine 08-18-05, 03:14 PM	In that same ruling a Move Action can only be accommodated with a Single Attack Action... :rolleyes: Spring Attack follows that same trend. :rolleyes: Spring Attack follows the exact same pattern as move action with a single attack action, just now you may move before and afterwards due to the feat. You still don't understand spring attack yet. It doesn't let you do what you'd normally do, just splitting your move action around it. It lets you split your move action around a VERY SPECIFIC TYPE OF ACTION In a normal round, you would be able to move your speed, and do one from the following list: Standard Action Attack (melee) Attack (ranged) Attack (unarmed) Activate a magic item other than a potion or oil Aid another Bull rush Cast a spell (1 standard action casting time) Concentrate to maintain an active spell Dismiss a spell Draw a hidden weapon (see Sleight of Hand skill) Drink a potion or apply an oil Escape a grapple Feint Light a torch with a tindertwig Lower spell resistance Make a dying friend stable (see Heal skill) Overrun Read a scroll Ready (triggers a standard action) Sunder a weapon (attack) Sunder an object (attack) Total defense Turn or rebuke undead Use extraordinary ability Use skill that takes 1 action Use spell-like ability Use supernatural ability Move Action Move Control a frightened mount Direct or redirect an active spell Draw a weapon Load a hand crossbow or light crossbow Open or close a door Mount a horse or dismount Move a heavy object Pick up an item Sheathe a weapon Stand up from prone Ready or loose a shield Retrieve a stored item What Malign Fury does is add "full attack action" to that list. Spring attack has a much smaller list. Normally, when you spring attack you are allowed to move both before and after one of the following actions (+ some movement restrictions that everyone here seems to understand). Attack (melee) It's a short list. Malign Fury does not add anything to the list of things you can do when you spring attack. Therefore, spring attack remains entirely unchanged.
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 03:32 PM	YIKES!!!! Can you imagine a charge with a vorpal weapon and malign fury. (Not even I was that mean) - Jaw Drops.
The Abominable Darkling 08-18-05, 03:51 PM	You can't use Malign Fury to charge and make a full attack either. Inigo is spot on with his analysis. You should reread it until you understand it.
a_psh 08-18-05, 04:06 PM	No. There *is* a "clear cut" answer. Every round, you can either: 1. take a full-round action 2. take a standard/move action + a move action (in either order) 3. ... (bunch of other things that seldom come up and don't matter for the purposes of this discussion) The Spring Attack ability permits you to use your full-round action to do this: move, make a single attack action, move. Malign Fury adds the ability to do this to that list: take a full-round action + a move (in either order), with the restriction that the full-round must be a full attack action. Spring Attack is not a move or full attack action, so it cannot be inserted into a Malign Fury routine. Malign Fury is not an attack action, so it cannot be inserted into a Spring Attack routine. Thus, the two are mutually exclusive. And, yes, Spring Attack wasn't designed with Malign Fury in mind, but Malign Fury *is* designed with Spring Attack in mind. If the intent was to allow you to Spring Attack with it, the wording would have to be completely different. I've been DMing Eberron for ages. One of the common rules questions that arises relates to extra standard or move actions granted by the Action Surge or Extreme Hustle ability. In discussion, there is a single interpretation that has been consistently upheld: You can take the extra action strictly before or strictly after your normal set of possible actions (such as a full attack action or a standard action and a move). Now, those abilities grant you much broader capabilities than Malign Fury, as you can, in fact, make any full-round action, not just a full attack. But the only way I can mix them with Spring Attack is: A.) Take my extra action (move my speed, cast a spell, make a single attack) and then move-attack-move (Spring Attack). B.) Move-attack-move and then take my extra action. I cannot magically leverage my extra action into something that I can stick in the middle of the my Spring Attack. The exact same rulings applied to 3.0e haste. I believe this establishes a clear pattern and precedent.
a_psh 08-18-05, 04:11 PM	In a normal round, you would be able to move your speed, and do one from the following list: I never "heart" things, as I think it's silly, but... I <3 your list.
tarkin 08-18-05, 04:17 PM	Strict Game: Not allowed to take the Prestige class that grants Malign Fury thing in the first place. Loose Game: Inigio is correct, Spring Attack is far more limited and restricted. Worse, the wording of your ability clearly makes it inappropraite even for a feat such as Fly by Attack, which lets you split your move around any Standard Action. Used in conjunction with a charge, your feat only increases the amount you can move, it does not increase your # of attacks nor does it allow you to turn. Power Game: Inigio is still correct, you can't do that with a Spring Attack. But we can no go with what is cool and let you do what you describe while using Fly-By-Attack feat instead of Spring Attack. Also it can let you turn while charging. Anything Goes Game: Forget about Inigio. All he cares about is what is fair. Your idea is great, and when I do it won my horse, while using Spirited Charge and a lance, I get multiple attacks with Spirited Charges x3 damage. It goes well with my Lance of True strike and my Ring of Cure Minor wounds always on.
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 04:24 PM	Next question, can we apply the same arguments with Inspire Strike from the Anointed Knight - Book of Exalted deeds. Lets you at attack as a free action at your full base attack 3 time per day.
The Abominable Darkling 08-18-05, 04:31 PM	You can take a free action at any time. This usually includes during another action.
GoofsterStud 08-18-05, 04:46 PM	Is there any reason why an Annointed Knight couldn't turn evil and retain his powers? What is the limit of free actions one can have per round?
a_psh 08-18-05, 05:53 PM	Free actions are controled by the DM. The DM determines when a character's number of free actions per round strains credulity and caps it there. For example, you could decide that the Anointed Knight can only use Inspired Strike once per round. You can only take a free action during your turn, however. There are abilities that allow you to do things not-on-your-turn, but, by default, you can only act, even to make a free action, on your turn. On the Anointed Knight as an evil character: You're the DM. You can do whatever you want. The question I'd be asking is "should I even let in the annointed knight as a character in the first place?" The Exalted stuff uses the terrible excuse of "But there's a roleplaying requirement!" for the overpowered junk, but that's terrible game design philosophy. Likewise, you'll note that Ancestral Relic is a General feat, so Anointed Knight might actually be a class you can gain without having true Exalted status (only a good alignment). I don't recall what the requirements are beyond the prereqs, so it might or might not be an actually Exalted class. Regardless, I think it's rather pushing it, power-wise. The first rule of a PrC is that it shouldn't be blatantly more appealing than a core class, mechanically. The density of abilities-that-are-better-than-feats that Anointed Knight grants makes it excessive in this regard, I believe, though it is fairly tame for the BoED classes. But, meh, you can use optional content however you want. That's why it's optional.
weasel fierce 08-18-05, 06:06 PM	The Exalted stuff uses the terrible excuse of "But there's a roleplaying requirement!" for the overpowered junk, but that's terrible game design philosophy. Only if you assume that point for point game "balance" is a requirement of an RPG.
Karelzarath 08-18-05, 06:06 PM	To simplify the wording: As a full round action, Malign Fury adds a move to a full attack. As a standard action, Spring Attack adds a single attack to a move. The two do completely different things and do not stack in any way.
a_psh 08-18-05, 11:15 PM	Only if you assume that point for point game "balance" is a requirement of an RPG. I've played things that where balance doesn't matter. Rules-less MUShes with a digital coin flip as the only way to resolve disputes between participants, for example. 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons, however, already made the assumption that balance matters for me, and has produced a dozen books based on this premise. Thus, the BoED breaks D&D's own conventions. Can you honestly look at the BoED and not say that the things in there completely outstrip the power of anything in the core rules, often by leaps and bounds?
weasel fierce 08-18-05, 11:20 PM	But it would seem those two books specifically, dealing with the subject matter at hand, are intended very much as a GM's tool, and to be used when the story warrants it, rather than toolboxes for the players.
GoofsterStud 08-19-05, 11:28 AM	I just wanted to thank everyone for there help and assistance in regarding this topic. I very much appreciate all your help. +REP to Inigo Carmine For really helping me grasp the concept. (While I didn't disbelieve you I was fishing for more people confirmation regarding either side before I made my decision.) I would like to send a special thank you for the clarification on this, you've been a great help!
a_psh 08-19-05, 01:19 PM	But it would seem those two books specifically, dealing with the subject matter at hand, are intended very much as a GM's tool, and to be used when the story warrants it, rather than toolboxes for the players. All prestige classes are intended as DM tools. Unfortunately, that's not really how people actually use them. Based on discourse on these boards, the response that most people seem to have to a book of new feats and prestige classes, be it Complete Warrior or BoED, is "All of this is fair game to the players". One could argue that the DMG is even more of a GM toolbox. But all of the classes (except for the FR-derived ones) are pretty nicely balanced anyway. In fact, I'd imagine a very significant chunk of design time went into trying to set all of the magic item prices, which are a far more blatant expression of D&D's balance philosophy than anything in the PHB. The BoED and, to a somewhat lesser extent, the BoVD definitely *have* power creep compared to the core stuff. I see this as a terrible design flaw. Other people might not. But I think the pros and cons of optional content, especially when we're talking about taking away the "roleplaying requirement" on BoED PrCs, should be pointed out. Annointed Knight is strictly better than a fighter. The BoED vaguely tried to compensate for this with moral restrictions on the character. Based on the BoED's design philosophy, removing those makes the character more powerful. Based on the mine, they never really compensated for anything anyway. My thoughts on this are: "If you strip the roleplaying restrictions off of the game mechanics, the power doesn't change. So if you're sticking it in anyway, it won't break the game any more to stick it in without that limitation-that-doesn't-actually-limit-anything." See if there's BoED errata, though. I have the feeling that Inspired Strike is limited to once per round.
weasel fierce 08-19-05, 01:37 PM	If people use it in a manner different to the intent in which it was written, that isnt a flaw of the writer, but the user, if he fails to make the adjustments that may be needed, in my opinion.