Am I railroading my players? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I railroading my players? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gluestick
06-02-07, 12:57 PM My players keep complaining that I am railroading and preventing them from doing what they want to do. But I think that they just want me to change everything so they can do whatever they want. Here is an example.

They are currently at Falnir, which is my world's equivalent of Antarctica. They were tricked into going there by a goblin king, and while they were there. a herald of their king told them an evil sorceress(my BBEG) was gathering armies, and that they should investigate it. They were fine with this, until they realized that it would take a while. Then they got bored with the story and decided they wanted to be Scions(they just got Expanded Psionics Handbok) and return to one of the character's homelands. I firmly believe in letting my players do what they want, but I also frame a realistic world. As the world was literally being ripped apart at the seams, storms are occuring. Stack that with the fact that theguards and marines are fighting the BBEG's armies, means that the fare for sea-travel goes through the roof, sine pirates and thieves now run rampart, AND they are in the middle of nowhere. They complained about it, but I already gave them a list in-game of all the BBEG's captains, and what they do, as well as their locations. One of them is a leader of pirates, which means that the rates would go down then. I had to say this rather than let them infer it. But they still complained. Am I railroading them, or are my players just lazy?

SUMMARY:
My players suddenly shifted their campaign goals and complain that I am not letting them have fun, despite the fact that I am just mirroring a realistic economy/situation.
northern_bear
06-02-07, 01:14 PM Am I railroading them, or are my players just lazy?

A litle bit of both. And your players are also sort of being jerks.

The goal is for everyone to have fun.

As the DM, it is up to you to create an adventure that the players would enjoy playing in.

But as players, they are expected to return the favour. That means, their characters should play the adventure you've written for them.

It is one thing for the players to say "I'm not sure what my character's motivation would be for doing this adventure."

It is entirely another thing for them to say "I, as a player, have changed my mind and want to do something different. I'm not interested in this adventure you've written. Please write me a new one."

It sounds like their characters have all the motivation that they need. It is the players, not the characters, who want to do something different.

As DM, you should try to accomodate the player's wishes. But you can't be expected to be constantly scrapping and re-writing entire adventures just because your players are fickle.
Gluestick
06-02-07, 01:26 PM The thing is, they tend to cause most of this. They let three months worth of damage occur to the world because the fighter was poisoned, so they left him in a village of Barbarians. The Halfling, who always tried to kill people/steal things(No matter where we are), got arrested, and the Cleric decided to get a day job. Oh, and they left the Wizard's dead body rotting in the street. So after they got out, I said that the prices went up, due to the lack of goods, and general disarrray that now runs rampant.
Murrdox
06-02-07, 01:41 PM It is always a shame when you write an adventure, but the players aren't interested in it.

That being said, it sounds like your players really aren't a very cohesive group, and aren't very interested in heroism.

You want your players to have fun. I would short-circuit your plans, and basically open a door for your players to get into the kind of adventure that they are interested in.

I do NOT think you are railroading your players... your campaign seems quite open, with a lot of options to the players for what they want to do. The problem seems more that the players just aren't interested at all in the current events of your game world.
Zaver
06-02-07, 01:59 PM It doesn't really sound like you railroaded them at all. They're in the middle of no where and decided screw this I'm going home. You appreantly gave them the way to do so via ship, but they don't like it and just want to be back home with the old trick of saying we go back home and have you say the trip was uneventful.
Gluestick
06-02-07, 02:08 PM The thing is, they are evil. One of them is intent upon creating an evil empire in the name of Hextor. The only reason they want to go home, is so he can burn it down, and the player decided this after drinking four Cokes. I am trying to give them motivation to do things, and am trying to tailer it to their demands, but they shift things around so much, that it becomes nigh impossible. They want to remake their characters, and so I drew a way for them to do that into the story. I try and incorporate anythign they want into it, but they get upset when they don't instantly get it, or they have to follow some plot points for it, it seems. Like last night, they were complaining about Psionics not being allowed, and when they asked why, I said "It hasn't developed in this world.", which led to a debate as to why it wasn't, which ended with me explaining the theory of alternate vibrating universes. I promised them that Psionics will be allowed, provided that they fulfill the correct obligations.
sicsemperjohn
06-02-07, 02:55 PM Yeah, you need to lay the mighty DM strength down on them. Players should not necessarily get what they want. Put psionic monsters in, or psionic villains. Then when your players want psionic characters, just flip them off and lay into them with ability score damage.
Kaldric
06-02-07, 03:15 PM It sounds like you have an interesting adventure, and you're not railroading.

As you have described it, the problem appears to be with your players. They don't really seem to want to play in the world you've made.

This gives you three options:
Allow them to change the world to something they're more amenable to, in game. You've given them this option, but they appear too impatient and demanding to take it.

Scrap your world, and come up with one that fits their demands, trying to insure that they have fun with you as DM.
It will probably be more difficult for YOU to have fun as DM, as they are infringing on your prerogative to create the world that they will adventure in.

Set aside your campaign world for the moment. Put it on "pause" if you will. Then, do the worst thing possible for your players. Give them everything they want. They want instant gratification? Give them a taste of it, and they'll soon realize that it's not as much fun as it seems. Make them realize that the fun of D&D comes from a sense of accomplishment. If they get whatever they want immediately, without any struggle, it's boring. Unless they are really immature children, they'll get bored quickly, and you can go back to your original campaign.

When you're doing the instant wish-fulfillment campaign, listen carefully to your players. When one of them says "gosh, it'd be cool if I had a vorpal +5 sword of uberness!", have one drop out of the sky and plop to the ground in front of him. Just do the worst kind of short-circuiting you can think of. When one says "I wanna be a Psion!", a God appears and magically grants him a Psion level. They don't want to overcome challenges to get what they want, show them what D&D is like without any challenge.

Hopefully, they'll get the point after a session or two.

Anyway, these are just ideas. But it really sounds to me like you don't need to improve your campaign, you need to improve your players.
WHW4
06-02-07, 03:27 PM I am sorry for you that you seem to have wieners for players. May I ask what their age range is? It might be that they don't even possess the attention span to complete an epic-scoped adventure.

Maybe they are more dungeon-crawl/ mini-adventure oriented. Something along the lines of: "You overhear the bartender talking in hushed tones about the abandoned keep two days south of here. You hear the words "cursed" and "haunted" several times."

I, myself, love both kinds of campaigns, and it sounds like you've done a really good job of giving them an out if they so choose. Lowering the cost of ship travel by offing a piratelord? Dude, that's an adventure in and of itself!

You aren't railroading, by any stretch of the imagination. You just have impatient, and it sounds like, childish players.
Gluestick
06-02-07, 09:54 PM My players are 10th-12th graders. I would run it the way they seem to want it, but I like my story, and if they had their way, they would do whatever they wanted without repercussions. For example, the fighter decided for no apparent reason to become a cheese-maker. And they complained that I am making them fight the Sorceress. Because I make it impossible to get a ship out, even though they know where a pirate cove is. Then they complain that no one has Profession(Sailor). They complain about not being able to reason with or join the Sorceress, despite never coming close to her. Honestly, I think my story is fine and my world is open-ended. They just want to be able to do anything without repercussions.
Undrhil
06-02-07, 10:13 PM The thing is, they tend to cause most of this. They let three months worth of damage occur to the world because the fighter was poisoned, so they left him in a village of Barbarians. The Halfling, who always tried to kill people/steal things(No matter where we are), got arrested, and the Cleric decided to get a day job. Oh, and they left the Wizard's dead body rotting in the street. So after they got out, I said that the prices went up, due to the lack of goods, and general disarrray that now runs rampant.

That sounds like something that would appear in "The Order of the Stick" online webcomic. That halfling's name isn't Belkar is it? :)
UltimateReality
06-03-07, 02:29 AM You and your players have different styles. I have experienced similar woes, although to lesser degrees, myself. (My players aren't quite as hyperactive as yours sound.) The trick, I think, is to get good at statting things up on the fly (or just guestimating them), and keeping a file of general notes for cool encounters.

I know it's really hard when we strive for a world with verisimiltude; my teeth hurt from gnashing sometimes at the end of a session. ;) But if you want to continue running for this group, you'll need to learn to run more fast 'n loose with the plot. You will also need to run a more episodic story, instead of one with an over-arching plot.

the fighter decided for no apparent reason to become a cheese-maker.Okay, he becomes an NPC, and he can roll up a new character to join the group next session or next adventure. (He can sit the rest of this one out so as not to disrupt the group.)

I make it impossible to get a ship out, even though they know where a pirate cove is.Shrug and ask them if they want to stay in Antarctica or if they want to go home. If they want to go home, they can either take a ship by force, or try and hire whatever legitimate ships there may be. (Then, while they're on the ship...a murderer strikes! The PCs must solve this crime because THEY COULD BE NEXT...)

Then they complain that no one has Profession(Sailor).Then they can try to hire sailors at the docks.

They complain about not being able to reason with or join the Sorceress, despite never coming close to her."You want to join the sorceress? Fine, you know where she is, go see her and talk to her."

They just want to be able to do anything without repercussions.I know it's difficult. My group is similar. But some people really do want to use D&D as an escape where they can do that crazy **** and not get in (as much) trouble for it. And if that's what your players want, then enforcing strict negative consequences is going to agitate the problem, as you both want completely different things from the game. If you can handle a little less verisimilitude, you can still have negative consequences for their actions, just make them, more humourous or able to talk their way out of. You can also just remind/warn them of what they're doing -- "you realize you're leaving the dead wizard's body in the street, right? You figure someone's probably going to notice that in about 5 minutes..."

Have you sat down with the players outside of game time and had a chat? Something like: "Hey guys, I'm having a real hard time throwing a coherent adventure together cuz y'all change what you want to do approximately every 5 minutes. Any reason for that? What's your ultimate goal in this game? Wanna see more of something? Something new I'm not doing at all?"
Kaldric
06-03-07, 02:38 AM Aaaaah. Young players. Teenagers. Oh, the memories. Seriously, these young tykes need some training. You will mold their little squishy minds into the roleplaying geeks of tomorrow.

Honestly, I'd do what I said before. Give them so much of what they want that they get tired of it. They have to learn that instant gratification is BORING. Only then will they begin to appreciate the finer things, challenges and accomplishments.

Break them of their munchkin ways, bring them up right, and you'll have a fine group.
Stoyrm
06-03-07, 06:41 AM Railroading ^^ I've been good at that.

But as they don't want to do that stuff let them go back to the homelands.
Just let them, first off all though, if they have been asked by some1 to investigate etc and been told that it is ripping the world apart. And they don't bother tell the Cleric etc that their alignment is changing to CN because this was a MAJOR action. However they might complain alot about that being railroading.

Make it so that after a bit of adventuring, the trouble happening in Falnir comes to the place where they are.
Now if major parts of the lands are wrecked, they gotta see the seriousness in this. And if they don't, find other players or make them sit up straight and be adults. They should roleplay not do just whatever they want.

BTW: Alignment Changes are really nice at times. Especially at such great events that might destroy the world. A Good Cleric would help anyone to go to the source of evil. And if he doesen't he is selfish, neutral or evil.
Gluestick
06-03-07, 01:26 PM I think I will try Kaldric's idea. They want to be gods? Fine. :D Maybe once they realize their playstyle is limited to pulling crazy encounters out of the MM and fightign them with level 100 characters, then they will get bored..

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gluestick 06-02-07, 12:57 PM	My players keep complaining that I am railroading and preventing them from doing what they want to do. But I think that they just want me to change everything so they can do whatever they want. Here is an example. They are currently at Falnir, which is my world's equivalent of Antarctica. They were tricked into going there by a goblin king, and while they were there. a herald of their king told them an evil sorceress(my BBEG) was gathering armies, and that they should investigate it. They were fine with this, until they realized that it would take a while. Then they got bored with the story and decided they wanted to be Scions(they just got Expanded Psionics Handbok) and return to one of the character's homelands. I firmly believe in letting my players do what they want, but I also frame a realistic world. As the world was literally being ripped apart at the seams, storms are occuring. Stack that with the fact that theguards and marines are fighting the BBEG's armies, means that the fare for sea-travel goes through the roof, sine pirates and thieves now run rampart, AND they are in the middle of nowhere. They complained about it, but I already gave them a list in-game of all the BBEG's captains, and what they do, as well as their locations. One of them is a leader of pirates, which means that the rates would go down then. I had to say this rather than let them infer it. But they still complained. Am I railroading them, or are my players just lazy? SUMMARY: My players suddenly shifted their campaign goals and complain that I am not letting them have fun, despite the fact that I am just mirroring a realistic economy/situation.
northern_bear 06-02-07, 01:14 PM	Am I railroading them, or are my players just lazy? A litle bit of both. And your players are also sort of being jerks. The goal is for everyone to have fun. As the DM, it is up to you to create an adventure that the players would enjoy playing in. But as players, they are expected to return the favour. That means, their characters should play the adventure you've written for them. It is one thing for the players to say "I'm not sure what my character's motivation would be for doing this adventure." It is entirely another thing for them to say "I, as a player, have changed my mind and want to do something different. I'm not interested in this adventure you've written. Please write me a new one." It sounds like their characters have all the motivation that they need. It is the players, not the characters, who want to do something different. As DM, you should try to accomodate the player's wishes. But you can't be expected to be constantly scrapping and re-writing entire adventures just because your players are fickle.
Gluestick 06-02-07, 01:26 PM	The thing is, they tend to cause most of this. They let three months worth of damage occur to the world because the fighter was poisoned, so they left him in a village of Barbarians. The Halfling, who always tried to kill people/steal things(No matter where we are), got arrested, and the Cleric decided to get a day job. Oh, and they left the Wizard's dead body rotting in the street. So after they got out, I said that the prices went up, due to the lack of goods, and general disarrray that now runs rampant.
Murrdox 06-02-07, 01:41 PM	It is always a shame when you write an adventure, but the players aren't interested in it. That being said, it sounds like your players really aren't a very cohesive group, and aren't very interested in heroism. You want your players to have fun. I would short-circuit your plans, and basically open a door for your players to get into the kind of adventure that they are interested in. I do NOT think you are railroading your players... your campaign seems quite open, with a lot of options to the players for what they want to do. The problem seems more that the players just aren't interested at all in the current events of your game world.
Zaver 06-02-07, 01:59 PM	It doesn't really sound like you railroaded them at all. They're in the middle of no where and decided screw this I'm going home. You appreantly gave them the way to do so via ship, but they don't like it and just want to be back home with the old trick of saying we go back home and have you say the trip was uneventful.
Gluestick 06-02-07, 02:08 PM	The thing is, they are evil. One of them is intent upon creating an evil empire in the name of Hextor. The only reason they want to go home, is so he can burn it down, and the player decided this after drinking four Cokes. I am trying to give them motivation to do things, and am trying to tailer it to their demands, but they shift things around so much, that it becomes nigh impossible. They want to remake their characters, and so I drew a way for them to do that into the story. I try and incorporate anythign they want into it, but they get upset when they don't instantly get it, or they have to follow some plot points for it, it seems. Like last night, they were complaining about Psionics not being allowed, and when they asked why, I said "It hasn't developed in this world.", which led to a debate as to why it wasn't, which ended with me explaining the theory of alternate vibrating universes. I promised them that Psionics will be allowed, provided that they fulfill the correct obligations.
sicsemperjohn 06-02-07, 02:55 PM	Yeah, you need to lay the mighty DM strength down on them. Players should not necessarily get what they want. Put psionic monsters in, or psionic villains. Then when your players want psionic characters, just flip them off and lay into them with ability score damage.
Kaldric 06-02-07, 03:15 PM	It sounds like you have an interesting adventure, and you're not railroading. As you have described it, the problem appears to be with your players. They don't really seem to want to play in the world you've made. This gives you three options: Allow them to change the world to something they're more amenable to, in game. You've given them this option, but they appear too impatient and demanding to take it. Scrap your world, and come up with one that fits their demands, trying to insure that they have fun with you as DM. It will probably be more difficult for YOU to have fun as DM, as they are infringing on your prerogative to create the world that they will adventure in. Set aside your campaign world for the moment. Put it on "pause" if you will. Then, do the worst thing possible for your players. Give them everything they want. They want instant gratification? Give them a taste of it, and they'll soon realize that it's not as much fun as it seems. Make them realize that the fun of D&D comes from a sense of accomplishment. If they get whatever they want immediately, without any struggle, it's boring. Unless they are really immature children, they'll get bored quickly, and you can go back to your original campaign. When you're doing the instant wish-fulfillment campaign, listen carefully to your players. When one of them says "gosh, it'd be cool if I had a vorpal +5 sword of uberness!", have one drop out of the sky and plop to the ground in front of him. Just do the worst kind of short-circuiting you can think of. When one says "I wanna be a Psion!", a God appears and magically grants him a Psion level. They don't want to overcome challenges to get what they want, show them what D&D is like without any challenge. Hopefully, they'll get the point after a session or two. Anyway, these are just ideas. But it really sounds to me like you don't need to improve your campaign, you need to improve your players.
WHW4 06-02-07, 03:27 PM	I am sorry for you that you seem to have wieners for players. May I ask what their age range is? It might be that they don't even possess the attention span to complete an epic-scoped adventure. Maybe they are more dungeon-crawl/ mini-adventure oriented. Something along the lines of: "You overhear the bartender talking in hushed tones about the abandoned keep two days south of here. You hear the words "cursed" and "haunted" several times." I, myself, love both kinds of campaigns, and it sounds like you've done a really good job of giving them an out if they so choose. Lowering the cost of ship travel by offing a piratelord? Dude, that's an adventure in and of itself! You aren't railroading, by any stretch of the imagination. You just have impatient, and it sounds like, childish players.
Gluestick 06-02-07, 09:54 PM	My players are 10th-12th graders. I would run it the way they seem to want it, but I like my story, and if they had their way, they would do whatever they wanted without repercussions. For example, the fighter decided for no apparent reason to become a cheese-maker. And they complained that I am making them fight the Sorceress. Because I make it impossible to get a ship out, even though they know where a pirate cove is. Then they complain that no one has Profession(Sailor). They complain about not being able to reason with or join the Sorceress, despite never coming close to her. Honestly, I think my story is fine and my world is open-ended. They just want to be able to do anything without repercussions.
Undrhil 06-02-07, 10:13 PM	The thing is, they tend to cause most of this. They let three months worth of damage occur to the world because the fighter was poisoned, so they left him in a village of Barbarians. The Halfling, who always tried to kill people/steal things(No matter where we are), got arrested, and the Cleric decided to get a day job. Oh, and they left the Wizard's dead body rotting in the street. So after they got out, I said that the prices went up, due to the lack of goods, and general disarrray that now runs rampant. That sounds like something that would appear in "The Order of the Stick" online webcomic. That halfling's name isn't Belkar is it? :)
UltimateReality 06-03-07, 02:29 AM	You and your players have different styles. I have experienced similar woes, although to lesser degrees, myself. (My players aren't quite as hyperactive as yours sound.) The trick, I think, is to get good at statting things up on the fly (or just guestimating them), and keeping a file of general notes for cool encounters. I know it's really hard when we strive for a world with verisimiltude; my teeth hurt from gnashing sometimes at the end of a session. ;) But if you want to continue running for this group, you'll need to learn to run more fast 'n loose with the plot. You will also need to run a more episodic story, instead of one with an over-arching plot. the fighter decided for no apparent reason to become a cheese-maker.Okay, he becomes an NPC, and he can roll up a new character to join the group next session or next adventure. (He can sit the rest of this one out so as not to disrupt the group.) I make it impossible to get a ship out, even though they know where a pirate cove is.Shrug and ask them if they want to stay in Antarctica or if they want to go home. If they want to go home, they can either take a ship by force, or try and hire whatever legitimate ships there may be. (Then, while they're on the ship...a murderer strikes! The PCs must solve this crime because THEY COULD BE NEXT...) Then they complain that no one has Profession(Sailor).Then they can try to hire sailors at the docks. They complain about not being able to reason with or join the Sorceress, despite never coming close to her."You want to join the sorceress? Fine, you know where she is, go see her and talk to her." They just want to be able to do anything without repercussions.I know it's difficult. My group is similar. But some people really do want to use D&D as an escape where they can do that crazy **** and not get in (as much) trouble for it. And if that's what your players want, then enforcing strict negative consequences is going to agitate the problem, as you both want completely different things from the game. If you can handle a little less verisimilitude, you can still have negative consequences for their actions, just make them, more humourous or able to talk their way out of. You can also just remind/warn them of what they're doing -- "you realize you're leaving the dead wizard's body in the street, right? You figure someone's probably going to notice that in about 5 minutes..." Have you sat down with the players outside of game time and had a chat? Something like: "Hey guys, I'm having a real hard time throwing a coherent adventure together cuz y'all change what you want to do approximately every 5 minutes. Any reason for that? What's your ultimate goal in this game? Wanna see more of something? Something new I'm not doing at all?"
Kaldric 06-03-07, 02:38 AM	Aaaaah. Young players. Teenagers. Oh, the memories. Seriously, these young tykes need some training. You will mold their little squishy minds into the roleplaying geeks of tomorrow. Honestly, I'd do what I said before. Give them so much of what they want that they get tired of it. They have to learn that instant gratification is BORING. Only then will they begin to appreciate the finer things, challenges and accomplishments. Break them of their munchkin ways, bring them up right, and you'll have a fine group.
Stoyrm 06-03-07, 06:41 AM	Railroading ^^ I've been good at that. But as they don't want to do that stuff let them go back to the homelands. Just let them, first off all though, if they have been asked by some1 to investigate etc and been told that it is ripping the world apart. And they don't bother tell the Cleric etc that their alignment is changing to CN because this was a MAJOR action. However they might complain alot about that being railroading. Make it so that after a bit of adventuring, the trouble happening in Falnir comes to the place where they are. Now if major parts of the lands are wrecked, they gotta see the seriousness in this. And if they don't, find other players or make them sit up straight and be adults. They should roleplay not do just whatever they want. BTW: Alignment Changes are really nice at times. Especially at such great events that might destroy the world. A Good Cleric would help anyone to go to the source of evil. And if he doesen't he is selfish, neutral or evil.
Gluestick 06-03-07, 01:26 PM	I think I will try Kaldric's idea. They want to be gods? Fine. :D Maybe once they realize their playstyle is limited to pulling crazy encounters out of the MM and fightign them with level 100 characters, then they will get bored..