Am I really that bad? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I really that bad? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Dark_One
07-23-04, 05:27 PM Keep in mind, before I even describe the situation, that the character in question is Nuetral Evil. I am fully aware that he is a bad guy. I just hadn't considered this particular action to be as spine-twistingly evil as it was percieved to be by the other PCs and the DM.

Okay, we are on the high seas, on our way to a new continent, seeking ancient relics that are rumored to have the power to command dragons. We meet up with a dragon (a blue dragon). We talk to it for a while and it demands tribute. It demands our figurehead (a carved wooden dragon with continual flame in the eye-sockets). This proves too great a demand for the other PCs and we attack it. Long story short (involving casks of oil and an ettin skeleton) we defeat it. We stabilize it to keep it from dying and bind it to keep it from attacking when it awakens.

They wanted to keep it (maybe even have it join us as a member of the crew). I realize that a lot of players tend to have the "Nothing we've defeated can ever be dangerous to us again" attitude, but this is a powerful evil creature. I didn't trust it, or our ability to defeat it again if it got loose. So I made a modest suggestion :

We break off its wings, pull all its teeth, and put out its eyes.

That way, we'd have a dragon, but it could never threaten us.

That's not all that soul crushingly evil, is it?
Decepticons
07-23-04, 05:36 PM We break off its wings, pull all its teeth, and put out its eyes

That way, we'd have a dragon, but it could never threaten us.

That's not all that soul crushingly evil, is it?

Yes, it is actually. Its torture and mutilation. You'd have to work hard to be more evil.

In addition, it's one of the dumbest things I've heard in awhile. You actually think a creature, regardless of it's alignment, is going to want to join, serve or otherwise help your party after you inintionally mutilate it and cause it great pain?
Shapedoctor
07-23-04, 05:43 PM [

That's not all that soul crushingly evil, is it? [/B]

Yes, it is.
The_Dark_One
07-23-04, 05:48 PM You actually think a creature, regardless of it's alignment, is going to want to join, serve or otherwise help your party after you inintionally mutilate it and cause it great pain?

I had no interest in it joining the crew. I would have been perfectly happy to kill it, skin it, and use its hide for the figurehead (it would have looked so cool). The mutilation was just my compromise suggestion to keep it from turning on us and killing everyone (most importantly, me )
Ack'noth Necrom
07-23-04, 05:55 PM Its not only evil, its stupid. Why would you even want a creature that is going to try to kill you every chance it gets? The thing could easily make a whole in the side of your boat the size of a buick and leave you to the sharks, even without its natural weaponry. I bet your not even considering its magical capabilities either. The dragon is vastly superior to the PCs in both strength and intelligence, frankly Im amazed that it got captured when out on the open sea it couldve just flown away.

The question isnt is this really evil. It should be why did it let us take it captive. This screams of a dragon encounter that hasnt been run right IMO, but hey I could be wrong.

My advice to the PCs would be: Kill the thing before it kills you.
Michaelot
07-23-04, 06:17 PM Well, there is still a problem, just because its blind, flightless, and toothless means that is weakened, but it does not mean it still can't do damage. It still has its breath weapon. Can you imagine taking your flightless Dragon on a ship with you sailing again. Being a Blue Dragon and having lightning. Your boat does not stand a chance. Hope you can swim for 3 days.

I agree with Decepticons. It is Wrong and Evil. Forcing any being into assisting you or joining your party is not good by any means. If you did not want it to be hurt by it anymore you should have just killed it. Also torturing the Dragon does not mean that it will serve you. It just means that by fear it may, and given the chance would try to kill you later anyway when siding with some other evil character that would and could heal it...that actually sounds like a better alliance than the one you have tried to create. Besides, just how good is a flightless, toothless, blind dragon going to be in helping you with your purposes? It sounds like you thought it would be cool so you did so, is that correct?

*Pushing Dragon around in the right direction* "The enemy is about 200 meters away we'll tell you when to fire your breath weapon, Dragon!" *Dragons moves in a docile way* :nonono: That is just not going to happen. If I was the dragon I would be doing nothing so the enemy could rescue me and heal me. I might pay them a few favors for doing so and if your party happened to escape the battle. --I saw what you looked like once and I for sure would remember what you looked like later, creating an eternal hatred.

You also need to consider that if it has any young or a mama that is going to call for help. So pretty much you could have just invited another battle with another dragon.
The_Dark_One
07-23-04, 07:04 PM Like I said, I wanted to just kill the stupid thing. It was the other PCs that wanted to keep it.
Decepticons
07-23-04, 07:23 PM Like I said, I wanted to just kill the stupid thing. It was the other PCs that wanted to keep it.

So what's the purpose of this thread? I have my suspicions that it's a "look at me! My party beat a blue dragon!" thread. If its actually your intent to question whether or not mutilating a dragon is "crushingly evil" then I think you have your answer.
Dea ex Machina
07-23-04, 08:17 PM The poor little cute dragon. :sad:

You should have cast Calm Emotion on it and made it a happy dragon by giving it gold and junk. Then it would gladly fight for you, and more gold. :smirk:
Bomba
07-23-04, 08:29 PM We break off its wings, pull all its teeth, and put out its eyes.

That way, we'd have a dragon, but it could never threaten us.

That's not all that soul crushingly evil, is it?

a dragon has blind sence it would know where you were even without eyes. all you would have is a really ticked off blind dragon that wants revenge.

as Decepticons stated earlier. torcher and mutilating any creature is evil. things are very black and white in D&D in general. although not in this case that idea is extreamly evil.

either way kill it cause when it wakes up you are all dead.
Ruke
07-23-04, 08:46 PM Well, unless you're an extremely high level party, or it was a very young dragon, I'd say that either the DM played the encounter very poorly, or else the dragon is going to try something when you least expect it. Kill the thing when it and your party members are both sleeping.

Edit: Oh, yeah, to answer your original question, yes, that is an encredibly evil thing to do. Flat out killing it would have been an act of mercy compaired to what you did.
B Rob
07-23-04, 09:43 PM Kill it now before you loose your chance. Don't even bother asking the other peeps later, just kill the damn thing. They'll hate you for it, but they're better off not getting slaughtered by the dragon.
Phrennzy
07-23-04, 10:10 PM It's evil. And not very well thought out. Not an impressive BBEG long term, brilliant plan. More of a kobold or orc kind of evil plan. Not very good. :thumbsdow

And you forgot the claws. So now you have an angry dragon who can detect you with blind sense, still has claw attacks (and a reduced bite) it's breath weapon, spells, and mass.

It should be killed, or released. It is possible that you put fear into it by beating it. For that reason it may not attack you again.

However, mutilating it will only breed its anger, causing it to strike out, even if that action is suicidal, because death would be preferable to its current state, a hobbled slave.
The_Dark_One
07-24-04, 01:31 AM Actually, it turns out that I was wrong. The thing was not mutilated and seems to be functioning quite well as the newest member of the crew. Also, unless the DM is much more devious than I think he is, it is assimilating quite nicely. I have decided that, if I can't kill it, I will get on its good side (killing it would see me taking a very long swim home, with this party).

Yes, it was a very young dragon....and we got very lucky. This was not the type of victory to brag about.

Anyway, I think the question has been asked and answered. I think we can let the thread die...

So what's the purpose of this thread? The original purpose was that I was stunned at the horror that greeted what I thought was a good, practical compromise (it wasn't, I know that now. Dragons have a lot of abilites I didn't consider. :embarrass ). I just thought the other party members were a little less squemish than they turned out to be.

Oh, I am starting to like the dragon. I'm glad they didn't listen to me.:angel:
green_yawgmoth
07-24-04, 05:49 PM Yeah... that's pretty evil. Just kill the damn thing already, then cast Speak with Dead or something.

http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Callista
07-24-04, 06:17 PM It's evil... which is OK, because your character is evil.

If your character has INT 6 or less, then it's in-character. Otherwise, it's just stupid.

"Evil" shouldn't mean "Dumb"... heck, evil people are probably smarter; they have all of society set against them and survive.
shadowflamedancer
07-24-04, 06:38 PM i suggest you bid your friends and life(in charecter) good bye, because no matter how you mundanly ot migically or supernaturally diable it, one fact remains. ITS A DRAGON!!!! Dragons can be dangeroud, no matter how you put it.
Lady Mia
07-25-04, 08:54 AM I think your all missing the point.
His GM made the thing docile and helpfull.
Since his GM over rules anything this board says then apparently this particular dragon has a pet complex.

I think he knew ahead of time that his GM would make it nice to keep a group of happy players. Thats why he wanted to torture it instead of kill it, isn't it? He didn't like the idea of a dragon pet in the group. Sometimes players do stuff for all the wrong reasons, however well intentioned they seem to themselves.

As I see it you have only two options... kill it or be happy with it. But keep your eye open if you choose the later in case your GM isn't just pandering and actually has an evil plot behind the dragons seeming submission.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Dark_One 07-23-04, 05:27 PM	Keep in mind, before I even describe the situation, that the character in question is Nuetral Evil. I am fully aware that he is a bad guy. I just hadn't considered this particular action to be as spine-twistingly evil as it was percieved to be by the other PCs and the DM. Okay, we are on the high seas, on our way to a new continent, seeking ancient relics that are rumored to have the power to command dragons. We meet up with a dragon (a blue dragon). We talk to it for a while and it demands tribute. It demands our figurehead (a carved wooden dragon with continual flame in the eye-sockets). This proves too great a demand for the other PCs and we attack it. Long story short (involving casks of oil and an ettin skeleton) we defeat it. We stabilize it to keep it from dying and bind it to keep it from attacking when it awakens. They wanted to keep it (maybe even have it join us as a member of the crew). I realize that a lot of players tend to have the "Nothing we've defeated can ever be dangerous to us again" attitude, but this is a powerful evil creature. I didn't trust it, or our ability to defeat it again if it got loose. So I made a modest suggestion : We break off its wings, pull all its teeth, and put out its eyes. That way, we'd have a dragon, but it could never threaten us. That's not all that soul crushingly evil, is it?
Decepticons 07-23-04, 05:36 PM	We break off its wings, pull all its teeth, and put out its eyes That way, we'd have a dragon, but it could never threaten us. That's not all that soul crushingly evil, is it? Yes, it is actually. Its torture and mutilation. You'd have to work hard to be more evil. In addition, it's one of the dumbest things I've heard in awhile. You actually think a creature, regardless of it's alignment, is going to want to join, serve or otherwise help your party after you inintionally mutilate it and cause it great pain?
Shapedoctor 07-23-04, 05:43 PM	[ That's not all that soul crushingly evil, is it? [/B] Yes, it is.
The_Dark_One 07-23-04, 05:48 PM	You actually think a creature, regardless of it's alignment, is going to want to join, serve or otherwise help your party after you inintionally mutilate it and cause it great pain? I had no interest in it joining the crew. I would have been perfectly happy to kill it, skin it, and use its hide for the figurehead (it would have looked so cool). The mutilation was just my compromise suggestion to keep it from turning on us and killing everyone (most importantly, me )
Ack'noth Necrom 07-23-04, 05:55 PM	Its not only evil, its stupid. Why would you even want a creature that is going to try to kill you every chance it gets? The thing could easily make a whole in the side of your boat the size of a buick and leave you to the sharks, even without its natural weaponry. I bet your not even considering its magical capabilities either. The dragon is vastly superior to the PCs in both strength and intelligence, frankly Im amazed that it got captured when out on the open sea it couldve just flown away. The question isnt is this really evil. It should be why did it let us take it captive. This screams of a dragon encounter that hasnt been run right IMO, but hey I could be wrong. My advice to the PCs would be: Kill the thing before it kills you.
Michaelot 07-23-04, 06:17 PM	Well, there is still a problem, just because its blind, flightless, and toothless means that is weakened, but it does not mean it still can't do damage. It still has its breath weapon. Can you imagine taking your flightless Dragon on a ship with you sailing again. Being a Blue Dragon and having lightning. Your boat does not stand a chance. Hope you can swim for 3 days. I agree with Decepticons. It is Wrong and Evil. Forcing any being into assisting you or joining your party is not good by any means. If you did not want it to be hurt by it anymore you should have just killed it. Also torturing the Dragon does not mean that it will serve you. It just means that by fear it may, and given the chance would try to kill you later anyway when siding with some other evil character that would and could heal it...that actually sounds like a better alliance than the one you have tried to create. Besides, just how good is a flightless, toothless, blind dragon going to be in helping you with your purposes? It sounds like you thought it would be cool so you did so, is that correct? Pushing Dragon around in the right direction "The enemy is about 200 meters away we'll tell you when to fire your breath weapon, Dragon!" Dragons moves in a docile way :nonono: That is just not going to happen. If I was the dragon I would be doing nothing so the enemy could rescue me and heal me. I might pay them a few favors for doing so and if your party happened to escape the battle. --I saw what you looked like once and I for sure would remember what you looked like later, creating an eternal hatred. You also need to consider that if it has any young or a mama that is going to call for help. So pretty much you could have just invited another battle with another dragon.
The_Dark_One 07-23-04, 07:04 PM	Like I said, I wanted to just kill the stupid thing. It was the other PCs that wanted to keep it.
Decepticons 07-23-04, 07:23 PM	Like I said, I wanted to just kill the stupid thing. It was the other PCs that wanted to keep it. So what's the purpose of this thread? I have my suspicions that it's a "look at me! My party beat a blue dragon!" thread. If its actually your intent to question whether or not mutilating a dragon is "crushingly evil" then I think you have your answer.
Dea ex Machina 07-23-04, 08:17 PM	The poor little cute dragon. :sad: You should have cast Calm Emotion on it and made it a happy dragon by giving it gold and junk. Then it would gladly fight for you, and more gold. :smirk:
Bomba 07-23-04, 08:29 PM	We break off its wings, pull all its teeth, and put out its eyes. That way, we'd have a dragon, but it could never threaten us. That's not all that soul crushingly evil, is it? a dragon has blind sence it would know where you were even without eyes. all you would have is a really ticked off blind dragon that wants revenge. as Decepticons stated earlier. torcher and mutilating any creature is evil. things are very black and white in D&D in general. although not in this case that idea is extreamly evil. either way kill it cause when it wakes up you are all dead.
Ruke 07-23-04, 08:46 PM	Well, unless you're an extremely high level party, or it was a very young dragon, I'd say that either the DM played the encounter very poorly, or else the dragon is going to try something when you least expect it. Kill the thing when it and your party members are both sleeping. Edit: Oh, yeah, to answer your original question, yes, that is an encredibly evil thing to do. Flat out killing it would have been an act of mercy compaired to what you did.
B Rob 07-23-04, 09:43 PM	Kill it now before you loose your chance. Don't even bother asking the other peeps later, just kill the damn thing. They'll hate you for it, but they're better off not getting slaughtered by the dragon.
Phrennzy 07-23-04, 10:10 PM	It's evil. And not very well thought out. Not an impressive BBEG long term, brilliant plan. More of a kobold or orc kind of evil plan. Not very good. :thumbsdow And you forgot the claws. So now you have an angry dragon who can detect you with blind sense, still has claw attacks (and a reduced bite) it's breath weapon, spells, and mass. It should be killed, or released. It is possible that you put fear into it by beating it. For that reason it may not attack you again. However, mutilating it will only breed its anger, causing it to strike out, even if that action is suicidal, because death would be preferable to its current state, a hobbled slave.
The_Dark_One 07-24-04, 01:31 AM	Actually, it turns out that I was wrong. The thing was not mutilated and seems to be functioning quite well as the newest member of the crew. Also, unless the DM is much more devious than I think he is, it is assimilating quite nicely. I have decided that, if I can't kill it, I will get on its good side (killing it would see me taking a very long swim home, with this party). Yes, it was a very young dragon....and we got very lucky. This was not the type of victory to brag about. Anyway, I think the question has been asked and answered. I think we can let the thread die... So what's the purpose of this thread? The original purpose was that I was stunned at the horror that greeted what I thought was a good, practical compromise (it wasn't, I know that now. Dragons have a lot of abilites I didn't consider. :embarrass ). I just thought the other party members were a little less squemish than they turned out to be. Oh, I am starting to like the dragon. I'm glad they didn't listen to me.:angel:
green_yawgmoth 07-24-04, 05:49 PM	Yeah... that's pretty evil. Just kill the damn thing already, then cast Speak with Dead or something. http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Callista 07-24-04, 06:17 PM	It's evil... which is OK, because your character is evil. If your character has INT 6 or less, then it's in-character. Otherwise, it's just stupid. "Evil" shouldn't mean "Dumb"... heck, evil people are probably smarter; they have all of society set against them and survive.
shadowflamedancer 07-24-04, 06:38 PM	i suggest you bid your friends and life(in charecter) good bye, because no matter how you mundanly ot migically or supernaturally diable it, one fact remains. ITS A DRAGON!!!! Dragons can be dangeroud, no matter how you put it.
Lady Mia 07-25-04, 08:54 AM	I think your all missing the point. His GM made the thing docile and helpfull. Since his GM over rules anything this board says then apparently this particular dragon has a pet complex. I think he knew ahead of time that his GM would make it nice to keep a group of happy players. Thats why he wanted to torture it instead of kill it, isn't it? He didn't like the idea of a dragon pet in the group. Sometimes players do stuff for all the wrong reasons, however well intentioned they seem to themselves. As I see it you have only two options... kill it or be happy with it. But keep your eye open if you choose the later in case your GM isn't just pandering and actually has an evil plot behind the dragons seeming submission.