Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GoofsterStud 08-16-05, 02:08 PM	4 3rd level character should be fighting a CR of 3 4 3rd level fighters = 1 3rd level fighter for the DM Is this right? I think I'm lost on the CR thing.
Derren S. 08-16-05, 02:09 PM	That is right. You forget that when following the CR system the party should use 25% of their ressources against a equal level opponent.
Kalidor 08-16-05, 02:10 PM	That's correct. The balance is that the characters will generally have about an 80% chance of winning and should consume 1/5 or so of their resources before needing to rest. If 4 level 3 fighter PCs fought 4 level 3 fighter NPCs, the EL (Encounter Level) for that fight would actually be EL 5, which would be 2 higher for the party's average EL. It would also mean there's about a 50/50 chance of them dying.
orionm42 08-16-05, 02:19 PM	If 4 level 3 fighter PCs fought 4 level 3 fighter NPCs, the EL (Encounter Level) for that fight would actually be EL 5. Actually, four CR 3 creatures is an EL 7. Two CR 3 creatures would be an EL 5.
DirktheDaring 08-16-05, 02:32 PM	If that's how you spell retarded, you might actually be. :)
SeidonVanDolf 08-16-05, 02:34 PM	Okay, well I have a question then. How do you calculate the proper XP for a group of two PC's? How do you calculate a proper challenge for only two PC's?
Tony111 08-16-05, 02:41 PM	The balance is that the characters will generally have about an 80% chance of winning and should consume 1/5 or so of their resources before needing to rest. I don't think this is true. A party has to go through an average of 13.333 encounters per level to gain a level. With only an 80% chance of "winning", be are looking at one "losing" [not clear what winning or losing means; TPK?], we are looking at 2.6666 "losses" per level. Which is very bloody. It think it is more around a 90% or 95% chance of "winning". With "winning" defined as no PC deaths. -Tony
TheNatealator 08-16-05, 02:46 PM	The DMG has the steps for XP, page 37. Remember: give each player exp individually. If they're both same level, then you can calculate one PC's exp, then give the same to the other, and then add any ad hoc awards you want. Following the rules of doubling, twice as many creatures means EL = CR (of one creature) + 2 so half as many creatures means EL = CR (of group) - 2 A party of 2 lvl 4 chars is an effective party level of two. Remember, though: they get more experience for each encounter. One member of a 4-PC party (everyone level 2) gets 600/4 = 150 XP. One member of a 2-PC party (everyone level 4) gets 600/2 = 300 XP, according to the table on p. 38.
cambric 08-16-05, 02:48 PM	If that's how you spell retarded, you might actually be. :) :rofl: Everyone once and a while, somebody replies to something that makes me laugh out loud! The irony of some questions. :clap: Cam
GoofsterStud 08-16-05, 03:14 PM	However if they only fight, say once in a day. (Preparing for a big enounter) Why not fight 3 level 3 fighters? I mean...shouldn't they have the upper hand?
orionm42 08-16-05, 03:19 PM	However if they only fight say once in that day. (Preparing for a big enounter) Why not fight 3 level 4 fighters? I mean they should still have the upper hand right? The party would not have the upper hand. If properly played, an EL7 for a party of third level PCs could very possibly result in a TPK, even if the PCs were only fighting once per day and had their full complement of spells ready to go.
Inigo Carmine 08-16-05, 03:19 PM	PCs are assume to use about 20% of their resources in an average battle of "appropriate" CR. I'm not sure this translates into an 80% chance of winning; I'd say closer to 95-99% myself, but that's just gut feeling. To lose to an appropriate CR, the enemy would have to start hitting multiple crits with x3/x4 weapons (or at higher levels, raining save/die spells down and PCs failing saves). You're supposed to have 4 "appropriate" battles per day, thus consuming 80% of resources before resting. While a completely average appropriate CR 5th battle would be won by the PCs without problem, battles are rarely completely average. A battle that is just slightly too difficult at that point can shift it from a 95% chance of PC survival to sub 50% if they run entirely out of resources. The 20 % of resources that aren't used (in a 4-battle day) serve as a buffer to avoid a sudden drop in the PCs chances of survival if the encounters turn out to be tougher than average overall. If 4 level 3 fighter PCs fought 4 level 3 fighter NPCs, the EL (Encounter Level) for that fight would actually be EL 5, which would be 2 higher for the party's average EL. It would also mean there's about a 50/50 chance of them dying. Actually it's CR7, and while it's a tough battle, the PCs have higher than a 50% survival rate (assuming they are fresh at the tart). Remember that the enemies have much equipment than the PCs, and in D&D, equipment is worth more than levels. And remember that's all assuming PCs are built off 25 PB. If you use a different method of character creation method, the CRs will probably not be a good judge of an encounter's difficulty, almost always making them easier than they shyould be (since most people use methods that create more powerful PCs).
Inigo Carmine 08-16-05, 03:21 PM	The party would not have the upper hand. If properly played, an EL7 for a party of third level PCs could very possibly result in a TPK, even if the PCs were only fighting once per day and had their full complement of spells ready to go. I define having the upper hand as having better than 50% chance of winning. In that respect, the PCs do still have the upper hand. The chance of a TPK is slim, (I'd say 10%), but the chance of the PCs having any deaths at all is probably around 60%.
orionm42 08-16-05, 03:34 PM	The chance of a TPK is slim, (I'd say 10%), but the chance of the PCs having any deaths at all is probably around 60%. I respectfully disagree. In the situation given, if one of the PCs dies first, an imbalance is created (4 on 3) which could "very possibly" result in a TPK if "properly played." Also, look at other CR 7 creatures. A young red dragon doing 6d10 on his breath weapon would result in almost certain doom for a party of third level adventurers. Same would be true for an umber hulk, medusa, flesh golem, etc. The key here is not just that the EL is 4 higher than the party's average level, it is that the party is only third level to begin with.
Illion the Red 08-16-05, 03:51 PM	Also, look at other CR 7 creatures. A young red dragon doing 6d10 on his breath weapon would result in almost certain doom for a party of third level adventurers. Same would be true for an umber hulk, medusa, flesh golem, etc. The big difference is HOW you get to the EL. If you get to the EL with multiple low CR creatures, it is very different than getting there with a single high CR creature. The SINGLE CR 7 creature is at least a full 4 CR beyond the ability for any of the individual 3rd level PCs, but the lvl 4 NPC...not too great a difference. If you want to get really gritty, look at the difference between fighting a level 2 or a level 3 fighter...that extra feat can make a big difference.
orionm42 08-16-05, 04:12 PM	The big difference is HOW you get to the EL. If you get to the EL with multiple low CR creatures, it is very different than getting there with a single high CR creature. The SINGLE CR 7 creature is at least a full 4 CR beyond the ability for any of the individual 3rd level PCs, but the lvl 4 NPC...not too great a difference... Not according to the DMG... ...By contrast, an encounter even one or two levels higher than the party level might tax the PCs to their limit, although with luck they might be able to take on two such encounters before needing to recover. Remember that when the EL is higher than the party level, the chance for PC fatality rises dramatically. Also, you disregarded the first part of my post. Even if the challenge was 4 on 4, one or two bad die rolls could result in a PC death. Once the first PC dies, the other 3 are simply not strong enough at their low level to overcome the odds. Inigo Carmine said the odds of a TPK are "slim, (I'd say 10%)." This is where I disagreed. In a properly DMed encounter, the odds of TPKing a third level party in a seventh level encounter are much higher. It does not matter if it is 4 against 1 (CR 7), 4 against 4 (CR 3) or 4 against 6 (CR 2).
Illion the Red 08-16-05, 04:44 PM	Also, you disregarded the first part of my post. Even if the challenge was 4 on 4, one or two bad die rolls could result in a PC death. Once the first PC dies, the other 3 are simply not strong enough at their low level to overcome the odds. Inigo Carmine said the odds of a TPK are "slim, (I'd say 10%)." This is where I disagreed. In a properly DMed encounter, the odds of TPKing a third level party in a seventh level encounter are much higher. It does not matter if it is 4 against 1 (CR 7), 4 against 4 (CR 3) or 4 against 6 (CR 2). Although I do agree with you on the odds of a TPK going up with a higher EL, I still think that with the single much higher CR threat of a TPK is greater. In the case of the 4 against 4 (CR 3), the PCs will be much less likely to be facing individual threats that can outright kill them. The 4 against 1 (CR 7 - red dragon in this example) is a different case. The likelihood that the PCs could all die in the surprise round (breath weapon) is much higher than if they were facing the 4 3rd level fighters.
orionm42 08-16-05, 04:57 PM	Although I do agree with you on the odds of a TPK going up with a higher EL, I still think that with the single much higher CR threat of a TPK is greater. I acknowledge that single monsters can be different in this regard. However, again, I was focusing on the fact that we are talking about a third level party and a seventh level encounter. My point was primarily to controvert Inigo's 10% with respect to this third level party. See my quotes here... The key here is not just that the EL is 4 higher than the party's average level, it is that the party is only third level to begin with. and here... In a properly DMed encounter, the odds of TPKing a third level party in a seventh level encounter are much higher. In this case, where the EL is more than twice the party's average level and where the party is at such a low level to begin with, I don't believe the composition of the opponents will matter much with respect to "survivability."
Illion the Red 08-16-05, 05:13 PM	In this case, where the EL is more than twice the party's average level and where the party is at such a low level to begin with, I don't believe the composition of the opponents will matter much with respect to "survivability." I do see your points, and don't necessarily disagree. It's just my experience that the multiple lower CR creatures can be beaten more easily with good tactics and a few good rolls, while the big CR creature will require considerable luck and favorable circumstances to survive. Either way, you are right about the 10% chance of a TPK being way too low.
orionm42 08-16-05, 05:26 PM	It's just my experience that the multiple lower CR creatures can be beaten more easily with good tactics and a few good rolls, while the big CR creature will require considerable luck and favorable circumstances to survive... I agree completely if we are talking about an EL close to the party's level. :)
SeidonVanDolf 08-16-05, 05:41 PM	The DMG has the steps for XP, page 37. Remember: give each player exp individually. If they're both same level, then you can calculate one PC's exp, then give the same to the other, and then add any ad hoc awards you want. Following the rules of doubling, twice as many creatures means EL = CR (of one creature) + 2 so half as many creatures means EL = CR (of group) - 2 A party of 2 lvl 4 chars is an effective party level of two. Remember, though: they get more experience for each encounter. One member of a 4-PC party (everyone level 2) gets 600/4 = 150 XP. One member of a 2-PC party (everyone level 4) gets 600/2 = 300 XP, according to the table on p. 38. Thank you. I have been a little blurry on this subject, too. This cleared it all up a lot. I appreciate it.
MarkB 08-16-05, 05:54 PM	I define having the upper hand as having better than 50% chance of winning. In that respect, the PCs do still have the upper hand. The chance of a TPK is slim, (I'd say 10%), but the chance of the PCs having any deaths at all is probably around 60%. A party facing opponents of equal level will logically have a 50% chance of winning at all. If they do win, the chances of them doing so without casualties are slim. Yes, the NPCs will be less well-equipped than the PCs, but they'll be fresh and ready for a fight whilst the PCs may not be, and that equipment only has to last them one encounter, whilst the PCs need their equipment (including consumables) to tide them over for the long term, so the imbalance in equipment is negligible at best. The point is, you can only throw just so many encounters of this type at a party before you kill them (and when you're talking about equal-level parties, "so many" is about 2 or 3 at best). And once you kill the party, you kill your adventure.
LordHell 08-16-05, 06:13 PM	There is a fine line between Single, Powerful monsters and numerous weaker monsters, but that line does make a difference. On one hand the numerous, weaker monsters cannot deal out as much damage, but they can flank, mutually support each other, and spread the damage across their numbers. Depending on their weapon makeup, they can also tackle ranged, melee, and spellcasters alike. Bigger, stronger, creatures however can be flanked, and generally suck up all the PC's attacks. With big strong Melee creatures even a low level party could take one down using ranged attacks. There is the line however, 1,000 goblins likely wont kill a 20th level party without some special 'houserules'. I generally agree that the higher CR creatures usually have abilities that make them far more deadly than numerous lower level creatures, and do take into consideration that a Red Dragon is also quite tough for its CR7. Also numerous weaker creatures can give out a lot of XP for little oomph. If you run a 5th level party up against 30 Gnolls they're likely to haul in a lot of XP and not suffer too many casualties. One Wizard fireball can seriously put a dent in the Gnoll ranks. 30 Gnolls are roughly EL11. An 11th level party would crush those gnolls even if they had their hands tied behind their backs.
Thesen 08-16-05, 07:11 PM	I have been playing D&D for well over a decade. Let me just say that the rules - although useful - are usually flawed to some extent...and I use "flawed" loosely, meaning they're not all that bad and WotC can't possibly fit every variant into every rule they write. According to the "add 2 to the CR if the number of enemies is doubled" rule, your group of fighters would be a CR 4 (1,350 xp) to your PCs. That's roughly 340xp each. Now, let's think about that for a minute. A GARGOYLE is a CR 4. Four 1st lvl ftrs would be destroyed by a gargoyle - unless you're the kinda DM who hands out magical items like they're candy on Halloween -, yet they can fair pretty well against a group of another four fighters. Just remember that you're the DM and have the right to award experience how you see fit. Use the xp chart as a general guideline. Think ahead about what you will award and if the encounter is weaker than you planned because you didn't make it challenging enough, or too hard because you over did it, play with the xp awards as you see fit.
Arrowhen 08-16-05, 07:50 PM	The CR guidelines are just that: guidelines. They provide a good starting point for planning encounters, but they're no substitute for knowing your PCs strengths, weaknesses, and favored tactics. Those multiple weak enemies aren't so tough when half the party has Cleave. That single large enemy is going to look like a block of tofu tossed into an industrial wood-chipper when the hasted, bull's strength-ed TWF ranger gets through with it. You also need to take into account whether or not the enemies have abilities which compliment each other. My PCs are tough and work well together; they can easily defeat three APL fighters , but the closest they ever came to a TPK was in an encounter with a cleric, a barbarian, and a rogue, each at APL -1.