Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alynn 06-15-05, 10:43 PM	Ok this will be coming up semi soon in my game (within a month or so) and it occured to me I may be putting my Pali in a bad way, or worse, break up my party because of the moral quandry. Eventually the party will find that "The Horde" (they don't know the name yet) leadership is doing experiements with a captured green dragon, and bugbear women... I'll let you guess what it is... Eventually they will encounter the labratory where these experiments are taking place (after the dragon already has escaped, which in actuality, the dragon will tell them exactly where to find them, as he hates "The Horde" more than he cares to kill the PC's. In this lab they will come across about 15-40 noncombative female bugbears, all pregnant with half-dragon offspring... Killing innocents is always wrong, however, these are half green dragon offspring, which is a guaranteed evil offspring because of the nature of green dragons... The question is, by putting the party up against this particular part, am I setting the Pali up to fall? Or if he refuses to kill them, and the other party memebers do so, he will have to refuse to adventure with them... So in other words... am I doing to destroy my game with this? DM wise killing the offspring and not the mothers is the best option, as they are just being used, but the offspring is evil... Any ideas?
DeathMagus 06-15-05, 10:56 PM	Killing innocents is always wrong, however, these are half green dragon offspring, which is a guaranteed evil offspring because of the nature of green dragons... The question is, by putting the party up against this particular part, am I setting the Pali up to fall? Or if he refuses to kill them, and the other party memebers do so, he will have to refuse to adventure with them... So in other words... am I doing to destroy my game with this? DM wise killing the offspring and not the mothers is the best option, as they are just being used, but the offspring is evil... Any ideas? Partial birth abortion? Since you know what's coming out, set up a couple dozen mid-level fighters to take out the wyrmlings as they pop out. Shouldn't be too hard, right?
Always-Late 06-15-05, 11:03 PM	Killing babies is bad. Period. Have them reformed at the local temple.
storm_wolf 06-15-05, 11:37 PM	Capture the mothers, feed them only food that has been blessed, and have the half-dragons be born in a pool of blessed, consecrated, hallowed water, and make sure you are there with your evil-dar up. If they flag on evil-dar when born under those conditions, find daddy and give him his offspring to take care of, because they are NEVER going to be good, and they are NEVER going to be redeemed.
enailis 06-16-05, 01:36 AM	Your certainly testing him but if he’s a good role-player he should know the right thing to do.
wordserpent 06-16-05, 01:42 AM	The right thing to do? Hell, I don't even know what the right thing to do is.
enailis 06-16-05, 01:50 AM	The right thing to do? Hell, I don't even know what the right thing to do is. I guess it is.... Subjective... if I were in his postion I'd take them to a temple and let the clergy raise them....
Sargon 06-16-05, 01:58 AM	I guess it is.... Subjective... if I were in his postion I'd take them to a temple and let the clergy raise them.... This sounds to be a good idea... half-green Dragon don't HAVE to be evil... Modern Psycology tell us tht conditioning has ALOT to do with personality. And it would be sweet if in your next campaign (possibly with new players) there where a few hard-core half green dragon paladins running around.. as NPC's .. OR maybe Hero's if you run a evil game sometime.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 06-16-05, 02:08 AM	The nature of good and evil in the setting is an important thing to consider. Every group I play in has NOTHING that is "always good" or "always evil". Even a Balor could become a paladin of the most valiant of dieties. And then there's the "why are they evil" question. Are green dragons always evil in the campaign because that's how they're borught up? Or do they tap into a universal source of evil without even knowing it? As for what to do with the mothers, are THEY evil? Would they allow their children to be taken from them and raised into a faith to which they do not ascribe to? I would say that the thing to do is if the paladin has any inkling of what the situation is, be sure he has access to an Augury spell... preferably more than one use of it, since that spell doesn't always work the way you'd like. The key that makes paladins playable is FAITH. Generally speaking, the paladin need only have faith that their actions are correct. If doubt is sown, all is lost.
enailis 06-16-05, 02:45 AM	As for what to do with the mothers, are THEY evil? Would they allow their children to be taken from them and raised into a faith to which they do not ascribe to? This is a good question, form what I see I think there two factors which would determine their willingness to give their children up to the paladin 1.Are they being forced into “experiments” with the green dragon? If not then they’re obviously going to want raise the children to be soldiers 2.How loyal are they to their current god (assuming he’s evil)? If they are fairly loyal to their god they may think that they’re blessed by having these children, and may see the paladin as trying to “corrupt” their children
Nom 06-16-05, 03:05 AM	The question is, by putting the party up against this particular part, am I setting the Pali up to fall? Or if he refuses to kill them, and the other party memebers do so, he will have to refuse to adventure with them... So in other words... am I doing to destroy my game with this?It depends. Have you already decided what the "right" answer is and intend to punish the paladin if he doesn't do that, or are you merely offering up an interesting quandry to see how he'll react? Let me suggest that it should be up to the player as to whether a paladin (or any other character) falls. It's his character, and falling or not is part of character development. Obviously, there is a point where you need to step in and say "we need to have a little chat about your character's behaviour", but that shouldn't be any more true of paladins than any other class.
Neo_Leviathan 06-16-05, 07:06 AM	Another option is, depending on how close the bugbears are to birth. You can always have your Pally get plenty of birth-control powder and abort the babies.
alecthemad 06-16-05, 07:42 AM	A few people have made these points seperately but I thought I might bring them together as a cohesive whole: 1) I think you as a DM need to have more options for the Paladin to execute than "Death to the babies" or "No death for the babies". The suggestion of turning the children over for consecrated births and rearing by the temple is a good start. 2) You need to condiser the nature of evil in your game. The issue of baby killing and paladins always results in arguement. The bone of contention in these arguements is usaully if the babies would grow up evil. If you allow alignment to be determined by more than heiredity then the paladin has many more options opened to him. If you allow the rearing of a child to affect or determine its alignment then the paladin may know of tales where this has been done. You can introduce such tales long before the players discover the Dragonbears. Then when the time comes the paladin will have an example to draw upon. 3)Bubbears and dragons ewwww. 4)Paladins have a tough row to hoe and do not get so much out of it. I think the DM has some responsibility to help paladins along that path. If a paladin sins of his own accord and after proper warning from the DM then he should suffer the appropriate consequences.
Radijs 06-16-05, 07:45 AM	What Nom said is very right. Have you decided on a correct action. There are many good things the paladin can do. Let the player work it out and then see wether his actions are really identifyable as evil rather then good. Murdering the bugbear women is definately evil so that would lead to a fall from grace. But most of the solutions put forth here sound like good aligned ideas or neutral at worst which I would let the paladin get away with.
Alynn 06-16-05, 04:50 PM	It's more of a moral quandry... I don't have a perscribed right or wrong right now... Good and evil... it really depends what the MM says... if it says ALWAYS Evil... then it is always evil... usually... then usually. Dragon evilness is heriditary... the babies will be evil. The mothers were used... the Horde hierarchy goes basically Hobgoblins on top, bugbears are the muscle, and goblins are the fodder... The experiment is to take the already strong bugbears, breed them with dragons, and make them stronger... which in turn will help them win the war they are going to try to start. So the mothers are reluctant mothers... are as such, are more neutral than anything. Either way they are being rescued, from there... well I really don't know...
Stafir Ortnev 06-16-05, 05:11 PM	Well the first thing you must answer is simple. Are the things being born babies/children or spawn? If they are spawn (IE born evil) then it isn't bad to kill them...it isn't evil. That is, if it is their inherant nature to be evil..and only a feat of magic/items/gods/mindscrewing/etc will turn them good. Meanwhile..if they are babies..with a slight, but able to be trained out (or cared out), bearing towards evil..which merely means some of their weaker instincts are evil....and just being kind or raising them kindly will make them not evil. Then yeah..its a bad thing to kill them. You really need to figure this answer..and get some basic ideas of whats good and whats evil surrounding this. As your players can come up with several other ideas as well. Also you've mentioned that the green dragon will tell them himself of where these things are. Why won't the paladin kill it first thing? If you wish to really break the paladin in...and truely make it a quandry..have him promise to bring the dragon's children back to it safely..as he wishes to raise them as an army against the horde (leave out what info you like). This will actually make it a lawful breakage, instead of a good breakage, if he promises to bring the babies back to the big green safe and sound. The net effect..is that if the palli falls at this point..you don't need to say 'you were evil, so your powers are gone' you can say 'you acted chaotically as you broke your word..your powers are gone'. It'll make the quandry of 'was it good or evil'. Also...if all else fails..whatever stops him from killin the green dragon..can prob stop him from killin the babies as well.
Aurum 06-16-05, 06:20 PM	Alignment, ultimately, is a tool for defining the conduct of the PC. This is not just for the DM, for for the player as well. Moral (good vs. evil) and ethical (law of ethical codes vs. chaos of situational ethics) guidelines for PC actions then aren't just a matter of what the DM thinks the best moral or ethical choice is, but what the player interprets the best moral and ethical choice. Rather then assume that the Paladin's judgement has a correct answer, let the player with the Paladin make a choice when confronted by the situation. If he makes a choice you don't expect to be appropriate for his alignment, let him explain his thinking. If his thinking is skewed and obvious hypocrisy ("I killed them because they were evil, and its lawful to take the law into my own hands"), then the PC gets no Paladin. If you feel like having fun with the Paladin, have the other players sit in on that judgement. Note that this takes honest players. If you feel like handing someone an absolute moral choice, give them access to tools like Contact Other Plane or Commune, or at the very least Augury. Those options aren't cheap, but at least you can give players an option in who they ask for advise when you set them up for a single correct action. If the character starts making a lot of bad choices... well, converting a Paladin PC to a Blackguard BBEG can be a lot of fun: just look at 'Star Wars' and 'Warcraft'.
Alynn 06-16-05, 09:18 PM	The pali wont kill the dragon because he wont be able to... the dragon itself will be a young adult, to adult... by the time they get to it, they will only be sitting about level 5-6, they dragon will smite them quickly, however, he happens to know who the PC's are because of the descriptions by the lab residents (the PC's are already becoming imfamous with the horde, and the LBEG already knows one of their names, the one that kicked him in the ********* when he was screaming for help when they captured him), by the time they reach there, they will have destroyed a horde outpost, and encountered their first dragon/bugbear hybrid, and contracts will have been placed on their lives (enter the anti-group I have planned for them). As far as the babies or spawn... The dragon nature would make them evil, if left raised by bugbears they will most likely be evil anyway... My personal choice for him would be to bring the bugbear mothers back to the Dar'loh Council and let them sort it out... Other than that... any suggestions... for some reason this whole storyline has become more twisted the farther they get into it... hell they don't even know the horde exists... all they are trying to do is get back some solid gold holy symbols back for the Dar'loh Council.
Stafir Ortnev 06-16-05, 09:38 PM	Hrm...well its a bit of a stretch the dragon would ask the PC's to help. Given that its more powerful than them..and could wipe out the lot of em. You may wish to consider displaying some reasons for why the Dragon asks the PC's to do the job (even if its as simple as....it enjoys toying with the PC's..and the horde..perhaps sending them to soften the enemy up first..then it plans to do the rest itself). Basically give the party a decent reason for why the Dragon does not do this itself..even though it could roast the party...if it could defeat them..then why not do the horde itself...and if it can't beat the horde..what hope do the PC's have..(you don't need to tell us..jus consider tellin the PC's that). Otherwise..you have a quite tricky question up..heh. And in the end it comes down to you, and your personal beliefs. Do you personally think its evil to kill the spawn? Even though they are evil..and will be evil no matter what..even if left to fend on their own..they'll still do evil stuff. If you think so..there is your answer. Basically..decide for yourself what the right course of action is..then be nice to the Pali...when they suggest the wrong course..don't stop them..but give a hint that its not a good or lawful thing to do (IE let them know if they do that action..they'll loose paladinhood) that way..it will be up to the player..and they will know the result of their actions beforehand.
Alynn 06-17-05, 02:56 AM	I had a big long post... then the forums ate it when they went down on maintnance... but I'll sum it up... The dragon does have a reason, I just left out details to get to the main point... There is a fairly involved backstory that you would have to know to understand the full scope of everything and how it all ties together. Suffice to say all my bases are covered, I tend to think about a situation after I come up with it as a player (as I used to be a hard core one)... And cover those contingencies... so far its worked... they haven't been able to pull a fast one on me yet.
Quarsian 06-17-05, 03:41 AM	In a campaign one of my friends is running, I play a Dwarven cleric. One of our earlier adventures involved assisting in the defense of a town against a Gnoll raid. Later, we raided the Gnoll lair, wiped most of them out, and left the women and children alive. The gnolls were starving and lost. My cleric, behind the backs of every other adventurer in the party (all of whom have the most ludicrous hatred of Gnolls I have seen for a party that really shouldn't have anything against Gnolls), went out and began providing a means for the Gnolls to survive peacefully (ranching and agriculture, a code of law, etc.). The DM has allowed this, and they haven't really done anything evil since. They're just surviving and going on with life. If these Gnolls can be so reformed, there is no reason why the half-dragons can't, especially if they are raised in a Good-aligned environment. Also, if you look in the MM, you will see that under alignment for a Half Dragon, it says "Often Chaotic Evil." 'Often' is a far cry from 'Always'. If you look under Half-fiend, you will see "Always evil (any)" for alignment. Thus, a Bugbear Half Dragon wouldn't necessarily be evil, whereas a Bugbear Half Fiend would certainly be evil. The outsider blood coursing through a half fiend makes it (almost) impossible for a half-fiend to be good (up to the DM's discretion). This is not the case with a half dragon. In fact, the half dragon may resent his father's (or mother's) evil ways and swear to right the wrongs he (or she) did. They aren't bound by blood as much as half-fiends are.
Vengeblade 06-17-05, 06:28 AM	3.5 says half dragons are the same as teh dragon variety 3.0 if I remember says usually the same as the dragon variety In either case, the DM has the right to change alignments base on circumstance, for example again, a paladin balor, which makes the game more varied and lively with better encounters and NPCs, otherwise if we followed the RAW always, eventually many of the role-playing aspects would become more monotonous than entertaining. Even without the BoED, having a paladin in the party has many exalted-like tendencies, and one of these is redemtion. I think the paladin should try to move the pregnent bugbears to somewhere safe where the babies can be raised as good creatures, that's it. Let the people in charge of teh city or wherever decide if they need to be put down for being evil, if that is what the letter of the law says after atempting redemption, then the pali has nothing to worry about. If the pali decides to slay they, then maybe he should lose some of his powers for a while as to show him that always directly slaying all evil, especially evil that can't defend itself, isn't always the best course of action. Either way, it sounds like a really tough call, but he is playing a paladin, and these kind of moments make playing them fun, so no matter what he decides to do, just make sure that the whole group is having fun.
Morka 06-17-05, 08:05 AM	You're setting a deadly trap to your paladin player. There is many suggestions here, and no winning answer. And your paladin will be alone with this decision, and he will only have a few minutes to think about it. Making the female bugbears crying and screaming, saying they were only unwilling part of the experiment should make the decision easier: don't kill the female bugbears. Now, will they want to keep and protect their babies with their maternal instinct, or will they be willing to an abortion solution, to erase the memory of this atroce experiment? Perhaps half of them will want to keep the baby, half of them will be willing to abort. Bugbear can be converted, they are opportunist humanoids. IMHO, changing the alignment from a dragon or half-dragon is above mortal power. It would take a Wish or Miracle to do so, or perhaps the action of a powerful holy artefact. In fact, this could lead to another quest to find this artefact.
Alynn 06-17-05, 10:13 AM	Yes the Half dragon template does state that the base creature does have the same alignment as the father creature. Although the example half black dragon does state often chaotic evil... Also, I know about switching things up, but I have 2 new players in my group, and I'm doing things pretty much by the book this campaign (except I have dire skeletons which are humainoid undead that keep class level HD (for HP purposes and CR). Bottom line, my players are having fun, all my little plot twists and my living world where everyone has a history, and everytown has some sort of problems, from mundane to extraordinary, some have to do with the main mission, and some do not... this is be the only time the pali will be confronted with such a "gray area" issue. And now that I think about it, if the PC's are taking out the lab, how interesting would it be to see the hobbies killing the pregnant bugbears to keep the half dragon children away from the "pinkies". The Palidin is then forced to help them.... muhahah.... I may do that...
MrkGrismer 06-17-05, 10:21 AM	A similiar situation came up in my campaign. The players rescued about 5,000 prisoners from the Evil Orc Army, and most of the women were 'with child'. They did not have to make any decisions about that, because they were just rescuing them from one place and turning them over to the custody of another place. They did not know the nature of the children (and still don't), but they suspected the women were not willing participants. After they finished the rescue and turned over, I asked each player around the table what they thought should be done. I told them it had no impact on their characters or the game, I was just curious what they all thought. The responses all were either that the babies should be killed or that they should not be killed. But after that I said that I found it very odd that not a single person replied with what I, personally, would have said, "Let the mother decide." I would have to say that however you let it go in your campaign, try to make sure your Pali doesn't loose his abilities just because his decision does not match what you would do. Baby killing something that is not listed as always evil is generally considered to be an evil act in D&D, so make sure the group knows that they have other options available.
pres_man 06-17-05, 11:12 AM	Also, I know about switching things up, but I have 2 new players in my group, and I'm doing things pretty much by the book this campaign Ok, well if you are trying to play pretty much close to the RAW, then here are some things that you should consider. Always: The creature is born with the listed alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or one-in-a-million exceptions. Also there has been some discussion about nature of evil "spawn". Here is a quote that relates more to devils and demons, who I believe are more "evil" then dragons. Evil Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above). So it seems clear that there is evidence that even "always" creatures can change alignment. In that case, since there is a chance that the dragon-bears might be able to be converted to non-evil, it would probably be evil to kill them by the RAW. Also there is other evidence in the DMG where an example is given of a NPC changing alignment due to PCs actions and in the MMII there is the crystal dragons that sometimes take white dragon eggs and raise them to be not as dangerous. On the other hand, you as the DM should not feel that the above has to be used. Perhaps in your game, always means just that, always. Some other issues. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Now innocents might include the baby dragon-bears, in that case the paladin must protect them. It all depends on what definition of innocent you use. Are they innocent because they haven't actually done anything yet or are they not innocent because they are born of evil. Lastly, I think you need to decide what it means to be evil. “Evil” implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. A lot is focused on killing, but hurting and oppressing are also evil, but maybe not so evil they deserve to be killed for. Basically, you need to decide if in your game is it ok for the paladin to strike down anyone who detects as evil, since this means they have done things worthy of capital punishment or are some creatures/folk evil, but have not done anything that warrents a death sentence. If you can be evil, but not so evil that you deserve to be killed then killing a creature for just being evil would seem to be evil in itself. By the way green dragons are LE, so their half-dragon offspring would probably act as: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises. So they could perhaps be controlled into not actually doing any evil acts, as long as they were closely watched. Oh yeah, and whatever you decide about the above, INFORM your players, especially the paladin.
LiquidDarkness 06-17-05, 11:35 AM	The nature of good and evil in the setting is an important thing to consider. Every group I play in has NOTHING that is "always good" or "always evil". Even a Balor could become a paladin of the most valiant of dieties. Do you understand what a demon/devil is?! Demons and Devils are the physical manifestation of EVIL itself and therefore are without possibility of redemption, without hope of accomplishing anything in their nearly eternal existence that even borders goodness. PERIOD.
Clawhound 06-17-05, 12:32 PM	Here's a question for you: what has the Paladin sworn? What is his oath? If you can't answer this question, then neither can the paladin. Paladins NEED oaths, so that they know what their paladin must live up to, but also so that they know what leeway that they have. If you paladin has no oath, how can he decide what he can and can't do in this situation? Secondly, is acting good an action or a process? If the paladin goes through a rigous argument to sort out this problem, will you slam him for picking wrong when he can't really pick right?
snowlynx 06-17-05, 02:06 PM	Demons and Devils are the physical manifestation of EVIL itself and therefore are without possibility of redemption, without hope of accomplishing anything in their nearly eternal existence that even borders goodness. PERIOD. They're meant to be this way, but stories, campaign settings, and some D&D books have exceptions. I think the trick is to clearly state if you're making it so there are exceptions in your game; in this case, the Paladin has to know if the babies ARE redeemable to make his decision.
Sildatorak 06-17-05, 02:43 PM	Always: The creature is born with the listed alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or one-in-a-million exceptions. If you think that half-dragons are "always evil" Wouldn't it be evil (or at least foolish) for a temple to invest the resources to raise these things that will almost assuredly turn out to be evil when it could spend the money to feed and clothe homeless of races that aren't "always evil"? I personally think that half dragons should be a "usually" rather than an "always." The humanoid heritage alone should be enough to dilute their evil nature to a point where it can be influenced through the actions of others.
Alynn 06-17-05, 02:52 PM	He's a Pali of Heironeous. He is sworn to protect the name, and Dogma of Heironeous. This one seems to thrive on chivalry and justice the most (really looks down on the clerics womizing ways, and is always going to help undo some wrong). He is part of the campaign because his church asked him to help out the Dar'loh council (which is made up of all the main religions), which is the only way he would stay with this group (the rest are all chaotic aligned). Anywho, if he asks, I'll be sure to let him know, and if he is about to kill the half dragon children... well I'll be sure to give him a change to change his mind. As long as he doesn't slaughter the mothers and children, any decision will be the right one IMO. So yeah... anyone else have another opinion of what may be an action that would be wrong?
snowlynx 06-17-05, 03:33 PM	An action that would be wrong? Ummm...the paladin should not poison the bugbears. The paladin should not kidnap the children and keep them as slaves or keep them in 'safekeeping' where they are treated like animals. The Paladin should not offer the bugbears as blood sacrifices to Heironeous. There are a dozen worse things I can think of, but I really doubt most Paladins are going to do them. I'm trying to think in the mindset of one of my friends here for the first three, because I know he would proclaim he was allowed to do them and that it wasn't evil. (I am remembering not so fond memories of the time when my neutral character was knocking sleeping people out using a merciful sword, because I didn't want them waking up and entering combat against us, and then his Paladin killed them. They weren't evil.)
Gedrin 06-17-05, 04:48 PM	First, ALWAYS EVIL creatures break the normal rules of how moral/ethical actions work. In the real world, there aren't always evil creatures. When dealing with Always Evil, you have a level of certainty that isn't normally available to mortals, and that radically changes the obligations and balance of actions. If you have perfect knowledge that in the future someone will do something direly evil, you would be obligated to act to prevent that evil. That sort of perfect future knowledge is not normally available, and in real life it is unheard of. Always Evil is something we don't have in real life. We have people who become evil, but children born to Nazis (as close to an Always Evil we can agreen on IRL) aren't Always Evil, but in D&D, we do have situations where Always Evil spawns Always Evil. This situation calls for a view that we do not have in real life, because the rules of the world are different. Now, I don't think we're dealing with Always Evil here, so it's really pretty clear. Raise the children at whatever reform monastic institution deals with reform cases. If you're the kind of DM that presents these sorts of problems in the world, but doesn't provide LG faiths with the institutions or infrastructure to deal with them, then yes, you are making a very common mistake. Expecting a follower of a code that depends on a social/orginizaitonal order to perform in his role when no society or orginization is present to support and reinforce his actions is like expecting cops to serve law and order for the good of the population without giving them a judicial system or jails.