Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DKnight 11-30-06, 08:29 AM	Last campaign we really ground to a halt on my "Masterpiece Dungeon" A mansion with 3 massive underground levels, a friendly if meloncholy ghost, a cursed buffet and hideous monsters outside in the grounds. And other creepy things inside at night unless you stayed in the safe room. The fact that the Fighter slaughtered the cleric who got poessed, the ghost wasn't even hostile it kept leading them out of the first level when he realised while the others tried to use sub dual damage, but apparantly opening up one of your friends with a great sword isn't a problem when their poessed Direct Player Quote: "The cleric can res him we got the stuff." Not to mention the Elven Sorceror who tried to sneak up on a hungry troll, feeding in the garden... No ranks in, Hide or Move Silently of course. Opening round of combat, the troll got 2 hits and Rend and that's one less Elf in the World. Fortunatly his Player had long left the game, but it really scared them into dealing with the less deadly threats inside. Generally it killed the campaign, puzzles I thought of as tricky seemed to be a nightmare for them. Than again they knew the 1st level was a Maze and never tried to map it, mark the walls with chalk or even run a string line. I hinted at attempting to do that multiple times, but the trap proved to great and they lost the will to continue. Not to mention we lost players to the common life problems of Uni, Work and Moving. New campaign, Semi-New characters and for me a new style of Dungeon. The bypassable sections. These simply have treasure, which may or may not be guarded and the difference between succeeding and spectacular success. Example, rescuing the Princess is a success, Rescuing the Princess her Handmaidens and recovering the crown jewels is a spectacular success. At the moment they are about to embark on a tower of a dead Necromancer sunk into the earth by a circle of Druids (Rock to Mud and Back again seals things nicely) A cave leads into it, and generally they have free run through 6 of it's 7 levels. They are after Knowledge for an Ally and of course loot as Adventurers often are. On 1 level there is a door with a combination lock, push the right stones in and you open the door, push the wrong ones and something nasty is probaly bound to happen. Necromancers aren't known for being nice people, stereotype maybe, but in a world of magic secrets can be guarded with lethal force. I thought I'd test the puzzle on you guys to see if I need to put some more clues to it's soloution, Since it was a Wizard who designed it, he designed a non-magical method only a genius such as he could decipher. "You find yourself in a small anti-chamber approximatly 15ft by 10ft. There appears to be an Innert armoured Skeleton at each end and a Heavy Ironbound door in the middle of the other side of the room. Directly infront of the door is a large copper plate on the ground and one above it. +----+-==-+----+ |** | | **| |** | | **| +----+----+----+ | | | | | | | | +----+/ \+----+ Beside the door is a panel of numbered stones, the instructions etched above the panels tell you to push one stone in on each row. But pushing the wrong 3 will be deadly. Once you start you have 3 minutes to complete the sequence before it resets. +-----+-----+-----+-----+ | 6 1 | 8 1 | 101 | 127 | +-----+-----+-----+-----+ | 3 4 | 2 7 | 1 8 | 9 | +-----+-----+-----+-----+ | 3 | 5 | 7 | 8 | +-----+-----+-----+-----+ Forgive the crudeness of my ASCII diagrams, if you wish to try your wits simply post what you'd do, precautions etc. And what number sequence you'd try. At the very least the number sequence. Speculation at what thing's are is also most welcome. Thanks for playing. And for the Record / \ is the open door, == is the door on the otherside and the block of * represents the Innert armoured Skeletons.
Hammith 11-30-06, 08:43 AM	Step 1) Check skeletons for traps Step 2) disarm, de-armor, and smash skeletons if not trapped (Gee, necromancer's castle, trust the skeletons? I think not). Step 2a) if skeletons are trapped, set most tankiest of characters near the skeletons Step 3) Press 81, 9, and 3. Reasoning: 3 squared equals 9, 9 squared equals 81. I would only do that if I was playing a smart character that knew math, though. This is assuming I'm playing my normal mage-ish type of character.
Cyresss 11-30-06, 08:47 AM	Ok, so, remember that playing characters with high intellegence scores can be difficult for most people. I mean, I'm not stupid, but there's no way I can run an 18 int, so I would definately give some sort of hint to those characters if they make their int check. Also, I find that when we create these puzzles we know the answer so if we think they are easy then the players think they are challenging and if we think challenging they find them wicked hard. Hard puzzles slow game momentum. Spending time thinking about things like this really bugs me in game and most of my players agree. Were I in this game I would either leave and go find easier prey or use a pole from 20 feet away to push numbers and deal with the consequences. That's just me though. I like word games over number puzzles any day. Good luck!
Kitaki 11-30-06, 08:48 AM	Not a bad lock. If anything try to make the wording more cryptic. Its 8, 34, 127 Based on each row the numbers increment in a patten, Bottom row: start at 3, increment by 2, 8 fails Middle row: start at 9, increment by 9, 34 fails Top row: start at 61, increment by 20, 127 fails Its not an intelligence lock, its a wisdom lock, its a puzzle, not a formula.
sorites 11-30-06, 09:46 AM	To me, this is a test of the players' abilities, as opposed to the character's abilities. If your players enjoy logic problems like this, then they will probably enjoy the lock you developed. In a group I used to play with, there is one person who would have had the answer in a second. Others in the group wouldn't have figured it out at all except for that player. That can be frustrating for the DM because it's hard to challenge everyone when there is a big disparity in logic puzzle skills among the players at the table. I have to admit, after staring at the puzzle for a minute or two, I did not know the answer. In a roleplay situation, I'd probably try to figure out the answer. Then if it wouldn't be in character for me to know the answer, I'd tell the wizard or cleric of the group so they could respond with the solution. To be honest, I am as intrigued by the copper plates as I am the lock itself. I imagine the copper plates mean an electric spark will light up anyone who presses the wrong stones.
alecthemad 11-30-06, 09:59 AM	Puzzles, mazes, and other things that make players think too much are game killers in my opinion. As a DM you must remember that the players have access to only a fraction of the information that you do. So while you may think a puzzle is easy (because you designed it or cribbed it from some source) the players may be stumped and frustrated. You need to give players direct clues, hints, or foreshadowing. Have some sort of guy come into the local bar offering money for whoever can solve a puzzle. A few players try and fail, then get shown the solution. Or they succeed and are in the right mindset for the solution. Then when they hit the (very similar) puzzle in the adventure they will be prepared. Same goes for mazes. Have a party at a rich merchants house. He has a race for some gold or jewelry. Part of this race goes through a maze. You get the same result as the puzzle. They fail and the winner reveals how he did it. They win and they discover a way. Hey later in the adventure there is another maze. But this one has a few minotaurs. Truthfully, mazes are not so hard. Just follow one wall and eventually you will get out. You might hit a lot of dead ends, and you will end up circling around to the opposite wall but you will find the exit. Try it sometime with a maze on paper. Unless the maze is magical and changes in which case it will just frustrate the players. The important point is that you need to give players clues or do some work to put them in the right mindset. It will make these puzzles, or tricks, or whatever you pull much more satisfying for everyone.
olshanski_home 11-30-06, 10:11 AM	I don't think you are too cryptic, but I think you've designed a poor puzzle. Its obviously 3, 9, 81 because 3 squared is 9, and 9 squared is 81. Its obviously 7, 34, and 61, because the sum of the numerals always equals 7. Its obviously 8, 34, and 127, because those are the "odd-one-out" in each row. Its obviously 7,27,127, because each number builds on the one before it by adding a numeral. The trick to designing a good puzzle, is that there should only be one answer, and the answer should be incredibly obvious when you find it. In the case of this puzzle, there are several possible answers, none of which scream "This is the correct answer".
ff6shadow 11-30-06, 10:28 AM	Actually, I find it best to build puzzles that have multiple answers. If you make them all right, it increases the chances that your players can find at least one of them, and decreases the chances that they are totally and completely stumped. Also, it may be helpful to set checks to get for hints. Maybe a DC 15 Wisdom or Intelligence check to realize that numbers may be a pattern, and selecting the odd one out could be a solution (maybe less of a hint than that, just giving a siggestion), and a DC 25 check could actually reveal one of the numbers that must be pressed based on one of the answers. You could even have different solutions tied to each score. While you're puzzle doesn't look to bad, you'ld be suprised how even moderatly difficult puzzles will irritate your more 'kill stuff' players, who's complaining can distract the players who want to solve the puzzle. Also, even the brightest people can sometimes overlook the easiest solutions.
trapspringer 11-30-06, 11:53 AM	Actually, I find it best to build puzzles that have multiple answers. I once ran a campaign wherein the players traveled to a floating island in an effort to retrieve one of four artifacts corresponding to the four elements. The final puzzle was a high-level Goliath cleric with acess to power word: kill. The goliath presented two books to the players and the counter proceeded as follows: DM: You walk into the room and see a huge man with grey skin dressed in a purple tunic holding two books. One is made of glass and the other is bound in cotten. Shaman: Before you is the book of air. However, you must select the correct tomb, for the other book will rob you of your very life energy, killing you instantly. Matt (immediately): I grab the glass book. DM: You die. Matt: What? No! Right? DM: Nope, you're dead. Matt: Really? DM: Yea, no jokin'. Matt: ****. The puzzle had nothing to do with the books, it was test of reasoning. The Shaman's job was to ensure that whoever took the book was thoughtful enough that they wouldn't immediately destroy a small city. This puzzle actually had two or three solutions, but of course that never came up, so... heh. Yea, mutliple solutions are an improvement on the model, but by no means full proof.
Sereno 11-30-06, 12:31 PM	I don't think you are too cryptic, but I think you've designed a poor puzzle. Its obviously 3, 9, 81 because 3 squared is 9, and 9 squared is 81. Its obviously 7, 34, and 61, because the sum of the numerals always equals 7. Its obviously 8, 34, and 127, because those are the "odd-one-out" in each row. Its obviously 7,27,127, because each number builds on the one before it by adding a numeral. The trick to designing a good puzzle, is that there should only be one answer, and the answer should be incredibly obvious when you find it. In the case of this puzzle, there are several possible answers, none of which scream "This is the correct answer". Actually, I think that works FOR this puzzle, not against it. You've got four possible answers ... that makes it a little less likely that the PCs will just pick the "obvious" solution and just walk through. Why would someone place a trap on something that has only one obvious solution? Might as well just leave the key under the doormat. I do agree with you if the puzzle is a riddle, however ... riddles should have one answer that makes you slap yourself on the forehead when you think of it.... BTW, no way in the Abyss am I standing ON a copper plate and BENEATH a copper plate, while messing with the lock-trigger-puzzle thing!! :) For the record, I'd go with 3, 9, 81 (pushed by 10' pole) ... the puzzle-keypad-thingie is also a square. I usually play a mage....
Wopple 11-30-06, 12:33 PM	Am I too Cryptic yes....
Frodo34x 11-30-06, 04:04 PM	Isn't solving logic puzzles using your own brain power technically meta gaming?
Sereno 11-30-06, 04:26 PM	Isn't solving logic puzzles using your own brain power technically meta gaming? Only if you're playing a PC that's *dramatically* dumber than yourself. Most DnD players are from average to above-average intelligence, so it's usually not meta-gaming to solve the puzzles "yourself." Just reducing a puzzle to a series of Int rolls isn't very satisfying, either.... But, yeah, if you're a half-orc barbarian with Int 4 you should just take a little break (gaming wise) and let the PCs with normal Int work out the puzzle. If you're playing an 18 Int wizard, it's OK to ask your DM for a couple of hints to reflect the supra-genius nature of your PC, too....
Sinaz 11-30-06, 04:57 PM	So what's the freakin' right answer?!?
trapspringer 11-30-06, 05:46 PM	The answer is "it depends on the answer." If there is only one answer to the OP's riddle, then yes, because there are several answers following very solid lines of logic. If there are multiple solutions then he has created a fairly workable, if flimsy, puzzle to break up his dungeon.
Kitaki 11-30-06, 06:35 PM	Either way, supposing you required a person to be standing on the metal plates to allow the buttons to be depressed, I would stand to the side pressing the buttons and change what party member is on the plate. "Hmm, perhaps this combination" ZAP "Ok, not that one, can someone pull Thog off there, and load the bard on while your at it."
Some_call_me_Tim 11-30-06, 06:56 PM	Only if you're playing a PC that's *dramatically* dumber than yourself. Yes, and no. I live in a society where general mathematical education is prevalent. My PC lives in a pseudo-medieval fantasy society where magic is common place. It isn't just about intelligence, it involves education. I certainly imagine our educations would be vastly different. Why would a typical adventurer need to know about squares? Your typical fighter wouldn't know or care. While the local carpenter would probably know. Puzzles can be fun (depends on the group); however, I've never liked puzzles that the players have to solve instead of the characters. Do you throw a player in a pool to see if his character makes a swim check? In this case there are too many plausible solutions without more hints. For the record, lacking any hints, I would go with my first thought: 8 -- the only even number also the only non-prime number 34 -- only number without 3 or 9 as a factor. 127 -- all the others end in 1. The other option would be the dread necromancer's birthday or anniversary.:P
wrecan 11-30-06, 07:00 PM	I don't think you are too cryptic, but I think you've designed a poor puzzle. Its obviously 3, 9, 81 because 3 squared is 9, and 9 squared is 81. Its obviously 7, 34, and 61, because the sum of the numerals always equals 7. Its obviously 8, 34, and 127, because those are the "odd-one-out" in each row. Its obviously 7,27,127, because each number builds on the one before it by adding a numeral. I agree it's a bad puzzle. Here's some more solutions... 3-34-81. 3 and 81 are the only numbers divisible by three in their row, 34 is the only one not divisible by three in its. 7-18-101. The only column with a progression of digits (1-2-3) 5-27-61. If 5 is considered "05", then subtractign the smaller digit from the larger always results in "5". 8-18-81. The product of the digits is always "8". 8-34-81. 8 is the only non-prime, 34 is the only non-divisible by 3, 81 is the only non-prime. This trap needs explanation. Even better is if the trap isn't mathematical at all, but is merely a password. Give the players background information that would lead them to conclude that three numbers have special meaning to the necromancer.
Kitaki 11-30-06, 07:30 PM	Perhaps reference to a book of some kind, clues on certain pages matching the numbers. That allows for some mathematical problem solving by finding a pattern, but also having to make the clues on the respective pages make sense.
theotherdraxen 11-30-06, 07:40 PM	Why would someone place a trap on something that has only one obvious solution? Might as well just leave the key under the doormat. For the same reason that you would have your castle guarded with creatures that the PCs could be challenged by but not defeated by. If I was seriously leaving a puzzle in my heavily-guarded necrotic castle, the key would be under the puzzle.
Bruunwald 11-30-06, 08:01 PM	Only if you're playing a PC that's *dramatically* dumber than yourself. Most DnD players are from average to above-average intelligence, so it's usually not meta-gaming to solve the puzzles "yourself." Just reducing a puzzle to a series of Int rolls isn't very satisfying, either.... But, yeah, if you're a half-orc barbarian with Int 4 you should just take a little break (gaming wise) and let the PCs with normal Int work out the puzzle. If you're playing an 18 Int wizard, it's OK to ask your DM for a couple of hints to reflect the supra-genius nature of your PC, too.... In our game we have an understanding that none of the players alone is as intelligent as the most intelligent PC. Thus, we allow the players of the "dumb" PCs just as much say in solving a riddle or puzzle, because we need the collective brain power of all the players working together to simulate the genius of the wizard, or whoever is smartest at the moment. When a consensus is reached, they usually allow that the smartest PC is the one who has reached the answer, and then default to that player to determine his character's actions (shouting out the answer, telling the fighter to pull the lever, whatever). This is especially important since, for some reason, the dumbest character usually seems to be played by the smartest player, and the least wise player often seems to grab up the PC with the brains (probably because that's a wizard and they want to blow stuff up with him). It works for us, anyway.
darcdante 11-30-06, 08:31 PM	Screw only having one door...just have the lock open four separate doors, one for each "obvious" answer. Then you get the best of both worlds. And you get to put more monsters in yur dungeon cause there are more doors. It'd be like the Price ie Right, but with skeletons (although Bob Barker kinda counts as one of those these days, heh).
Grizzled Gryphon 11-30-06, 09:14 PM	As it is a Necromancers Tower, you have to animate the skeletons, and have one of your own, all push any given number on each of the lines. No matter which numbers you push, it always sets off the Enervation spell trap. Obviously... Seriously, why not have the rogue make a Disable Device on the trap, Open Lock on the door, and then everyone can just go get the stuff? Just a thought. Either that, or go next to the door, and cast passwall. Or, just Greater Teleport the party past the door.
Reversefigure4 11-30-06, 09:21 PM	Given that your last campaign crashed because of puzzles the PCs didn't want to bother with solving, why do it again? If the players don't like puzzles, they'll take one look at the door and either bash it down or Disintegrate it.
pmurray@bigpond.com 11-30-06, 09:37 PM	The answer is "it depends on the answer." If there is only one answer to the OP's riddle, then yes, because there are several answers following very solid lines of logic. If there are multiple solutions then he has created a fairly workable, if flimsy, puzzle to break up his dungeon. Nothing more irritating than a teacher or other authority figure who's idea of a correct answer is "you must read my mind and come up with the same answer as I have".
theotherdraxen 11-30-06, 10:15 PM	Nothing more irritating than a teacher or other authority figure who's idea of a correct answer is "you must read my mind and come up with the same answer as I have". Oh...so QTF. Do not put your players up to any kind of challenge if this is your mentality.
DKnight 11-30-06, 11:06 PM	OK first of all the Necromancer is long dead and his creations have mostly been destroyed by the towers new occupants (Kobolds) who are willing to let the PC's search the place but won't help them do it. If they read his journal's in the library they could get a sense of the way he thinks, and hence vital clues. But don't think he's going to write down a sequence he'd remember. I don't write down my Bankcard PIN. The door is similar to a Safe, so yes only one combination will work. But unlike in the real world the options of opening it are more plentiful, brute force, Magic, Lockpicking which would involve crowbaring the panels off. Than again Distintergrate is out as they are 4th level. The other thing is they don't need to get inside, it's a bonus level so to speak. And the reason I put this sort of puzzle in is that the Wizard and Cleric players are both mad about Sodoku puzzles and have been doing some incredibly hard ones. Yes the Rogue and Fighter may be a bit bored, but I can only please some of the players some of the time. I gave the rogue a wonderful time last game sneaking around, using the others as distractions and stealing a piano with his block and tackle to help them to super success. The time before the Fighter was the hero tanking a Huge Spellstitched Skeleton. A small portion of tonight's session devoted to a little math geekery isn't a big ask. It's also able to be skipped, the flaw with the last one was they had to go through it. I'm giving the thinkers their chance especially since Healing is kind of thankless. Now the soloution 81, 9, 3. Simple Squared sequence which came up a few times. Failure turns on the Dread Guards in the corners CR2 Constructs. Standing on the Copper panels is a metagame fear factor device and also some decoration a closer inspection would detail a lightning pattern on each. Those copper plates are 10lb each and worth 15g each. The clue to this is a journal where he talks about decorating the lab with copper releiefs of featuring lightning and star patterns. His spell book would also feature lightning spells where ever possible. Although a Copper lightning rod is not uncommon in the campaign world. And yes my use of the Copper plates to promote a meta game reaction is sort of cheating. A spell trap can be trigger by a normal stone tile as much as a metal plate in the D&D world. Thank you to all who replied.
theotherdraxen 11-30-06, 11:11 PM	That's not bad. The others can pilfer what they want while the puzzle-solvers deal with the puzzle on their own. Just what the DMGII suggests.
Ongorth 11-30-06, 11:38 PM	Most DnD players are from average to above-average intelligence, so it's usually not meta-gaming to solve the puzzles "yourself." And what about the rest of us? For this very reason I loathe puzzles in games. If there is a puzzle in a game I'm playing that is there for the sake of having is puzzle, which is just about all of them, I freak out which can manifest itself in a number of ways: 1) If there appears to be a potenially lethal side effect involved in the puzzle, I randomly button mash (literally or metaphorically) and see what happens to my character. 2) I go on an extended break while everyone else handles it, putting on a CD or anything else to annoy people into hurrying up. 3) I derail the party by bombarding them with assine ways to get passed the puzzle without actually solving it. 4) I cry inconsolably. For some reason, puzzles just make my loose my cool. I'm normally a nice enough guy when I'm a player, loud, yes, but I make sure to care about the other players feelings. The second a puzzle appears, though, I become THAT guy. You know, the one you always read about on those threads that can't possibly be real because no one actually acts like that? Him. When there is a puzzle.
Varia 12-01-06, 05:58 AM	If the real payload is the skeletons then you need to put them behind unopenable (from outside), possibly secret, doors or, as at least one other person has commented, they are gonna be so ganked before they every get a chance to animate. No player in his right mind is gonna just leave them there while playing with an obvious boobytrap. They're gonna be destroyed, or thrown out a window before anyone touches anything else, or if thats not possible then at least tied up, crazy-glued to the wall, weapons peace-bonded, shoelaces tied together, etc.
DigitalMage 12-01-06, 08:53 AM	If this is a side trip, unnecessary to the main plot - and the characters know this - don't be put off if the players just ignore it. Also multiple solutions might be good if the players only come up with one of those solutions - you can rule it was the right one and make the players feel all warm and fuzzy. However if they spot multiple patterns and there is nothing to make it obvious which is the right one, they again may just leave it. For example my first spot was 127, 34 and 8 because they don't keep to the sequence for their rows, however there is nothing to say in which order those three should be pressed, I say 127, 34 and 8 because I read top to bottom. I also noted that 3, 9 and 81 were square numbers, but in the end my first though seemed more "correct" to me because it involved all the numbers - noticing the squares numbers doesn't require you to analyse the others. If I was facing this trap I would have to either ignore it, or try all theories with a 10 foot pole! Not much better than trial and error!
Sereno 12-01-06, 09:09 AM	Yes, and no. I live in a society where general mathematical education is prevalent. My PC lives in a pseudo-medieval fantasy society where magic is common place. It isn't just about intelligence, it involves education. I certainly imagine our educations would be vastly different. Why would a typical adventurer need to know about squares? Your typical fighter wouldn't know or care. While the local carpenter would probably know. Who's to say that squares aren't important in magic? Also, fighting squares are common enough in military formations, so even a fighter could know something about math. I agree that education is important, but trying to dissolve down to *only* what a PC would "really" know is too much work for a game character (IMO). In our game we have an understanding that none of the players alone is as intelligent as the most intelligent PC. Thus, we allow the players of the "dumb" PCs just as much say in solving a riddle or puzzle, because we need the collective brain power of all the players working together to simulate the genius of the wizard, or whoever is smartest at the moment. That sounds perfectly reasonable ... so long as the dumb character isn't the one who "really" comes up with the solution ... it's really all about appearances, IMO. Seems like a good way to handle PCs smarter than their players (which is probably the case with 90% of wizards PCs). The best I've ever gotten on "The Test" is a 15 and I play a 19 Int wizard ... I'm sure he can figure stuff out that I couldn't.... And what about the rest of us? For this very reason I loathe puzzles in games. If there is a puzzle in a game I'm playing that is there for the sake of having is puzzle, which is just about all of them, I freak out which can manifest itself in a number of ways It really is a matter of "to each, his own" ... I wouldn't want to play a DnD game with no puzzles or puzzles that can all be solved by making a couple of Int checks for my PC. I've always seen DnD as an intellectual endeavor; whether it's planning strategy, solving puzzles, getting into a specific role, etc.... If you hate puzzles and your DM keeps throwing them at you, he's not being a fair DM. If the rest of your party loves puzzles, then taking a personal break while they figure them out is probably the best route....
Magetastic 12-02-06, 08:18 AM	man i couldent solve that puzzle i saw several answers but i coulden't figure out which was the right one and i would never NEVER get close to the copper plates if theres one thing i learned in my adventures is that copper is bad gold too but wait i figured out the answer:lightbulb the answer is IT IS NOT A RIDDLE OR PUZZLE it's a trap why would someone have a door that could be opened by an intelligent enemy? their is a code but it has nothing to do with a puzzel the nubers wont even relate to each other the acual code is given to minons and such this is ment to fry as many enemys as possible who think they can get by with math knowledge:cool:
TarlSS 12-02-06, 12:45 PM	I hate puzzles. If you party is like me, I they also hate puzzles. At the beginning of the campaign, I'll tell you straight up, I hate puzzles. What's even more, I'd recognize this as a puzzle, and say... "Alright man, this is a puzzle. I hate puzzles, so I'm gonna go have a bagel and watch some TV. Come get me when you're done with your puzzle." And if you kill my character with some puzzle and have some kind of ****-eating grin on your face, I'd sock you right in your stupid face and walk out the house, because by god, I hate puzzles. What's more, I'm a programmer, where numerilogical crap like this comes up all the time. I solve it, but I don't like it. When crap like this comes up in entertainment, I leave. Notice how alot of games include a deliberate ABSENCE of puzzles? RPGs, FPSes, etc. It's because people walk into those game not wanting to play a fr'kn puzzle game. THere are puzzle games for those who enjoy puzzles. Your players don't like puzzles. I suggest you find "Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering" and figure out what they do like before they hit you with a shovel.
Ongorth 12-02-06, 01:08 PM	What's even more, I'd recognize this as a puzzle, and say... "Alright man, this is a puzzle. I hate puzzles, so I'm gonna go have a bagel and watch some TV. Come get me when you're done with your puzzle." And if you kill my character with some puzzle and have some kind of ****-eating grin on your face, I'd sock you right in your stupid face and walk out the house, because by god, I hate puzzles. Kindred Spirits or something. However, as I am less smart, I'd probably sock them in the face and walk out the house, forgetting that is was, in fact, my house. =(
DKnight 12-03-06, 05:18 AM	#1 All those people who hate puzzles must have missed the bit where I said 2 of my 4 players love puzzles and this thing is right up their alley. The 3rd will have a couple of shots at it, than if it's still there leave it to the other 2. If all the people in my group hated puzzles I wouldn't bother with them, I'd hide a key somewhere. But some like them. Doesn't Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering say give the players what they want? If you hate puzzles and 3 people in the group like them, I'd hate you at my table if your interupting their enjoyment of the game because of the occaisonal puzzle. #2 The guy who made it, was smart, evil, and arrogant. He came up with something that he beleived only a genius of his calibur could solve and since nobody but his Boss was that smart and his boss could walk in when he's out he thought it was perfect. Now this may be short sighted, but I've seen smart people think incredibly dumb things. Best example was playing a game of Chess with someone who got very high test scores and went to Uni. They lost 4 games straight to me and wanted a 5th because I who never did Uni couldn't possibly beat them, it was shear luck. Yet in Chess there is no luck each move is calculated and has a predictable result. The fact that I've played Chess since I was 7 and can see these moves easier has no factor as far as they are concerned. Infact I find the more arrogant about their own high IQ a person is the more lousy they play strategy games because they think people with a perceived lower IQ can't see mistakes or through ruses. Incredibly off topic I know. #3 House rule says your allowed to throw a punch at me but I'm allowed to retaliate with 10 years of Akido or 7 years of Karate.
Newpaintbrush 12-03-06, 05:52 AM	"You find yourself in a small anti-chamber approximatly 15ft by 10ft. There appears to be an Innert armoured Skeleton at each end and a Heavy Ironbound door in the middle of the other side of the room. Directly infront of the door is a large copper plate on the ground and one above it. +----+-==-+----+ |** | | **| |** | | **| +----+----+----+ | | | | | | | | +----+/ \+----+ Beside the door is a panel of numbered stones, the instructions etched above the panels tell you to push one stone in on each row. But pushing the wrong 3 will be deadly. Once you start you have 3 minutes to complete the sequence before it resets. +-----+-----+-----+-----+ | 6 1 | 8 1 | 101 | 127 | +-----+-----+-----+-----+ | 3 4 | 2 7 | 1 8 | 9 | +-----+-----+-----+-----+ | 3 | 5 | 7 | 8 | +-----+-----+-----+-----+ Forgive the crudeness of my ASCII diagrams, if you wish to try your wits simply post what you'd do, precautions etc. And what number sequence you'd try. At the very least the number sequence. Speculation at what thing's are is also most welcome. Thanks for playing. And for the Record / \ is the open door, == is the door on the otherside and the block of * represents the Innert armoured Skeletons.[/QUOTE] Before doing anything else, beat the hell out of the skeletons. Don't even search them first. If they look like armor wearing skeletons, blast 'em. The plates are probably some kinda electric trap, because copper is a good conductor of electricity. Disintegrate them from a good distance. Seriously, you walk into a room with copper plates on the floor AND CEILING?! Deathtrap! Cast "Detect Poison" on the panels and room. Honestly, it's not like I'm going to be using bare hands anyways, but maybe there are poison needles or gas or something like that around. Then, I'm just not going to press any buttons at all. If you are going to go to all the trouble of setting a trap, it just doesn't make sense to tell people how to beat it. No, it is far more likely that even if I DO figure out the correct combination, some other horrible nasty thing will happen. It doesn't matter if our rogue takes 20 on his Search and has a +27 modifier, and still doesn't find anything, and there's no magic to be detected, and whatever. I am going to be absolutely and firmly convinced that there is some kind of god-awful trap . . . ANOTHER god-awful trap, and I had better use Stone to Mud and Passwall and other things to bypass this room entirely. Only, before I even CAST those spells, I'm gonna have a cleric cast an Augury spell to find out whether there is some kinda contingency spell or ethereal monster or something nasty that is going to kill me when I try to cast Stone to Mud and/or Passwall. Now, if I were in some quirky gnome's workshop and faced with the same thing . . . I would just torch the whole place, because gnomes are evil tricksters. MAYBE I would trust dwarves to do something honest, but really, what kind of honest dwarf is going to make some kinda trap and put the solution right above the door? Conclusion: "Beside the door is a panel of numbered stones, the instructions etched above the panels tell you to push one stone in on each row. " That really makes it a "hell no" situation for me. Instructions etched above the panels? No way. It would have to be in an absentminded wizard's journal, who was always forgetting stuff, or in an instruction journal to an apprentice, or SOMETHING. Even then it could very probably be a trap. But etched above the door, NO WAI. Anyways, it's like this . . . 61, 81, 101, 127 34, 27, 18, 9 3, 5, 7, 8 Well, if I'm some kinda egotistical wizard, I'm gonna say that using 81, 9, 3 is an exponential sequence. 127, 34, 8 are the "odd men out" in each row. Both are obvious solutions. So if I eliminate those, I am left with 61, 101 27, 18 5, 7 The question is, which of these is an "obvious" solution that can be eliminated? But then, maybe one of the obvious solutions IS correct, because the trap setter figured that the people trying to solve it would be TOO clever and miss the easy answer. SO . . . DISINTEGRATE DISINTEGRATE DISINTEGRATE! Oh yeah, or try to cast some kinda scrying to find out which buttons to press, or cast divination spells to figure out which buttons were pressed in the past, or use Search to closely examine the buttons for old fingerprints or wear marks, but honestly, if I ran into a trap like this, I would just try to disintegrate the hell out of it. AFTER casting augury or having augury cast, of course.
Ongorth 12-03-06, 12:32 PM	How about people who are arrogant about their Kung-Fu skills? Are they lousy about their ability to defend themselves? You give the players what they want: A D&D game. If two of your players don't like puzzles and two of them do, how about you get together with them after the game, before the game or at a time unrelated to the game and do some puzzles with them? That way, you actually please everyone!
trapspringer 12-03-06, 03:50 PM	Just for the record, I think you should run the puzzle.
EscherEnigma 12-03-06, 04:38 PM	I was in a game that heavily involved puzzles recently. Basically, the DM threw us in a situation where we had to solve a puzzle to proceed. We started by reading the instructions and then trying to figure it out. Then the chaotic player (not chaotic character, chaotic PLAYER) just started trying things and managed to get it by luck. Next room, we also get a puzzle. The rest of us start trying to figure it out logically. The chaotic player again just starts figeting with things and gets it by chance. Third room, a room with riddles. The riddles are vague, annoying, and we are punished by an obscene number of dice of damage for a wrong answer. We get through the first three riddles without too much effort (though I think several of my answers should have been right. Damn thing not accepting answers that satisfy the riddle without resorting to strange metaphors) 4th riddle... we must have spent at least half an hour trying to solve the damn thing in real time. half the characters almost died becuase we submitted wrong answers and got blasted with enough potential damage to kill half the characters in one shot (the max damage was more then the rogue's and wizards HP, and the average wasn't that far off either.) Finally we found the right answer. The wall opens up and we see a door. Guess what our response was? Kick the damn thing in! Lesson? Forced puzzles that YOU think are easy might just **** the players off, can potentially consume more time then they should, and reward blind luck more then logical thought. And as such, unless you're in a group of people who all like puzzles, you should probably make it so that they can be circumvented if the group wants to. For example... by disentegrating the damn thing into unholy oblivion and ******* on the remains. Or, ya know, by burning down the entire haunted mansion because you don't want to play in the damn mirror room. I swear, if my character EVER encounters a haunted mansion, I don't CARE what kind of treasure is supposed to be in it, he'll burn the damn thing to the ground. But, if your group is happy with this sort of thing and the other players dont' mind wandering away for a little while, then go for it.
DKnight 12-04-06, 02:23 AM	How about people who are arrogant about their Kung-Fu skills? Are they lousy about their ability to defend themselves? You give the players what they want: A D&D game. If two of your players don't like puzzles and two of them do, how about you get together with them after the game, before the game or at a time unrelated to the game and do some puzzles with them? That way, you actually please everyone! I never said I was good, I was just allowed to use it.
TarlSS 12-04-06, 02:39 AM	The punching in the face was metaphorical. Maybe I'll taser you while you're not looking, or just throw hot coffee in your face and nice jacket. In general, bring you misery disproportionate to the imagined offense. Anyway. "Now this may be short sighted, but I've seen smart people think incredibly dumb things. " Yeah, it is shortsighted. Being smart is not some kind of general purpose INT bonus like in D&D. Hell, it's not even a remotely accurate description of a person's intellectual capabilities. If you think you're being clever or obtuse, and you have any proficiency in subterfuge, then you probably ARE being clever and obtuse. Face it, people are not naturally inclined to sniff out lies and deceit. They're trained at an early age to trust, unless they're severely messsed up. People who can use Sherlockian 'inductive logic' usually have some kind of talent for it, or they are trained in it as a skill. Maybe they're an art historian, a detective, or something or other. If something is hidden in a rudimentary fashion, it's usually hidden pretty good from ordinary people. Think about it- if you hide some money in your sock, is anyone going to find it except the highly trained detectives that are going to bust up the wall after you murder your mother? Probably not. If something is any deeper than the surface, it's going to take disproportionate amounts of time and effort to look for it.
filthy_ike 12-04-06, 03:17 AM	a DM must do things to please all players... so he made the puzzle now for the players that like it, but I bet the next time they play, he has got something nice for the other players. so everybody... let's stop about how everyone hates puzzles and let's stay to the topic.:) btw. it's a nice puzzle I think I also micht use it :D
Linkian06 01-02-07, 12:47 AM	BTW, no way in the Abyss am I standing ON a copper plate and BENEATH a copper plate, while messing with the lock-trigger-puzzle thing!! :) For the record, I'd go with 3, 9, 81 (pushed by 10' pole) ... the puzzle-keypad-thingie is also a square. I usually play a mage.... i really think that handling a somewhat obvious electrical trap with a METAL pole is not the best solution. just have the 6 Int HalfOrc Barbarian type it in ;)
PhaedrusXY 01-02-07, 01:12 AM	I think it is fine if you put puzzles in the game like this... as long as you let the rogue make a Disable Device check to bypass it, if he/she wants to and is capable of it. If the party wants to sit there and puzzle it out, let them. If they don't, let them bypass it using the rules, and their character's skills, and not their own. I know that can be frustrating as a DM to come up with all this stuff, only to have them ignore 90% of it. However, it's not just "your" game. The idea is for everyone to have fun, not just one person.
EvilSqueegee 01-02-07, 09:15 AM	I'd take a look at the rows. Being a Zelda addict... I loathe games that lack puzzles in SOME form or another, even if it's just a plot-twist whodunnit kind of situation. My answer, and the reasoning. 127 for the top row. 61+20 = 81. 81+20=101. 127 is the only one out of the pattern. 8 for the bottom row. 3+2 = 5, 5 + 2 = 7, 8 is the odd man out here, to boot. Middle row takes me a while, though. But it hits me as soon as I stop thinking addition. 34. Why? 9*1 = 1. 9*2 = 18. 9*3=27. 34 is the odd man out. After looking at the answers and how I arrived at them, I would start with the bottom, then middle, then top. Bottom row has the smallest number, middle row has the middlemost of the answers, and 127 (top row) is the biggest number.