Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bigwyrm 03-11-04, 09:22 PM	I have a party of 5 fifth level pcs, and one 3rd level bard. They all recentlly just got to fifth level after a battle with kuo toans. Anywhoo, they don't have too many magical items, swords mostly, two to be exact. A flaming longsword +1, and another +1 bone sword of dehydration ( +1 damage every round after intial attack succes). add a ring of minor spell storing and that raps it up. Am I being to selfish with the stuff that i'm giving them? They all have masterwork weapons. And by the way how available are the exotic weapons to your characters? Do they have to travel far to obtain kamas or a katana, how about shurikens? This is my first campaign. - tha wyrm
Fixxxer 03-11-04, 09:39 PM	You're being as stingy as you want to be. True, the assumption of the core rules is that the PCs would have slightly better loot by now, but as long as you're carefully watching the CR of the opponents you throw at the party, you'll be fine the way you're going. As a side note, I'm pretty stingy with the magic goods myself. As far as exotic weapons, it depends on the weapon itself. For instance, if you are looking for a spiked chain, you're probably going to have to search high and low, however a whip is common enough that they're easy to find. Even something fairly exotic and rare could be created by a craftsman, though. I mean, if you show a shuriken to a blacksmith and ask if he can make more of them for you, he'll probably be able to do so (unless he's blind or he just doesn't like you).
macfry 03-11-04, 09:44 PM	It all depends on the meaning of exotic. For some weapons it simply means "Hard to use without training." For others it really means they're hard to find/rare. Just use your best judgement. You won't find kusari-gama's in a medieval campaign without some looking, just like you won't find claymores in an oriental campaign very often.
bigwyrm 03-11-04, 09:52 PM	oh yes, I'm running the campaign in the kingdoms of kalamar setting, being meideval I think that it should be harder to find magical items..... or should it? The core rules give out magical items here and there, but they all raise the pc's offensive capabilities. My party is simply made for combat : orc barb, elv. monk, gnome monk, half elf ranger, gnome rogue3/ wizard2, and a female elf bard3. sooo too many magical item can really unbalance things. How should I make-it up to them in treasure terms? -tha wyrm
Eldren 03-11-04, 10:01 PM	The values listed in the Dungeon Master's Guide for how much a given PC should have at "X" level are good for building PCs above 1st level. They often don't work so well when you're actually starting at 1st level and slowly leveling the characters up. It's too easy for the Dungeon Master to feel hamstrung by those totals, and artificially inflate (or deflate, if he's been giving away too much) the treasure values in order to keep with those totals. When leveling PCs, those totals should be used more as guidelines. However, I understand what you're saying. My party is currently 3rd level, and doesn't have much in the way of magical items, and they're probably going to need them, as they're coming up on an area that's filled with incorporeal undead (primarily ghosts, although in the second level there are a couple of spectres). This means they have a flat 100% miss chance unless they're functioning with magical weapons, and then with those they only have a 50% hit chance. I'm hoping they can deal with the undead, as I'd hate to have a TPK on my hands. But they should be able to handle things, albeit with some difficulty. Keep a general eye on those totals from the table in the Dungeon Master's Guide, and every once in awhile (I hope you keep copies of the PCs' character sheets), check what the PCs have individually against what the Dungeon Master's Guide says they should have, and unless you're running a low-magic campaign, if they're too far below, then give them a couple of encounters with heavy-treasure monsters that are within a reasonable range of CRs they can face and have a chance of walking out alive. Either that, or don't roll randomly for the monsters' treasure for a few encounters, and place some items in the treasure hordes that both make sense and will bring the PCs closer to where the Dungeon Master's Guide says they ought to be. But if you're remaining reasonably close, then be logical about things. It often doesn't make sense, beyond a "It was on the body of an adventurer it killed", for something like a ghost to be "carrying" as treasure a +2 longsword that isn't also Ghost Touch (it isn't going to hang around if it can't use the weapon; it's going to leave it where it's at, unless the ghost is feeling malicious enough to use the weapon as adventurer bait). It doesn't make sense for a gelatinous cube to be carrying a Ring of Sustenance. Keep in mind that intelligent creatures are going to use items if they're aware what they do, and this means that charge-based items are rarely going to have full charges once the PCs get their hands on them. Items only have full charges if the crafter was killed shortly after crafting the item, or if the item has just been crafted within the last hour and the crafter hasn't had a chance to use it yet. If you're worried about your PCs not having enough cash or total value, then throw them a bone here and there, and let them get some neat magical goodies to bring them back up to par. But if your players aren't complaining, then you aren't doing anything wrong. Use your players' reactions to your game as a good gauge of their satisfaction as much as you use the Dungeon Master's Guide's recommendations about where characters of a given level ought to be in terms of magical possessions.
bigwyrm 03-11-04, 10:11 PM	cool thanx for the feedback. Its really funny how one of my pc's handles his +1 flaming longsword, He's a elven monk and when he walks around in the wilderness he likes to whip out his sword at random times and " twirl" it about in a prize happy fashion. when every one hears that he does that, I start to hear low grumblings.....:D now whenever they spot a baddy with some cool weapon the fighters anounce " he's mine! the green gemed sword is mine!" ... Being selfish really puts alot of emphasis on how precious magical items are, which i like because Magical items are meant to be cool, and its not cool if everyones got one. -Tha Wyrm
Fixxxer 03-11-04, 10:38 PM	There's a barbarian and a ranger in the party and a monk has the flaming longsword? Wow.
Lord Crimson 03-11-04, 10:52 PM	Originally posted by bigwyrm oh yes, I'm running the campaign in the kingdoms of kalamar setting, being meideval I think that it should be harder to find magical items..... or should it? The core rules give out magical items here and there, but they all raise the pc's offensive capabilities. My party is simply made for combat : orc barb, elv. monk, gnome monk, half elf ranger, gnome rogue3/ wizard2, and a female elf bard3. sooo too many magical item can really unbalance things. How should I make-it up to them in treasure terms? -tha wyrm Well, not all magic items are combat items. It sounds like you are (reasonably) afraid of giving out power-amping stuff. So don't give out power-amps. Give out generally useful but not super-cool items. Give PCs stuff that isn't combat related like boots of levitation, or a small (type I) bag of holding, or druid's vestments, or keoghtom's ointment, or a robe of useful items. But, otherwise, I agree. I am pretty stingy with magic items as well (at least, stingier than the published rules assume). There's no requirement that you give out magic items at all (though certain creatures are difficult, if not impossible, to hit without a few items of some mystical significance).
madoule 03-12-04, 01:21 AM	Me, I like to assign "signature" weapons to players determining their likelyhood of using the item correctly (aka roleplay) What i will do is make out a background for the weapon (if its magical in nauture) in a way that makes total sense and that's it, sure ill have the odd item here or there, but becuase of the background of the weapons or armor or whatever, the players sort of feel attached to that heirloom longsword that was passed down three generations and has this or that, which the player had used during his early carrier and did or that with the sword... you get the picture, suddenly the +1 longsword has a bit more weight to it and it makes the players feel like they have trully something special.
Perseus 03-12-04, 01:34 AM	No, you're not being stingy. You're simply running a low magic setting. As long as your not sending the pc's up against things they can't hit without the appropriate magical items, you should be good.
Pongolyn 03-12-04, 02:15 AM	Too stingy? Nah. In my book you'd be considered fairly liberal. I don't run a low-magic campaign by any means, but at 3-5th level I'd still expect the only common magic items to be one-shot deals like potions, scrolls, and mostly-used-up wands. The fighter-types will probably pick up magic armor or a shield before they get their first +1 weapon, but that could happen anywhere between 3-8th level and still be considered reasonable by most. As long as your players aren't getting trounced by monsters of their level, then you're probably doing all right.
Pumpoei 03-12-04, 03:42 AM	I think you're being too stingy. But that isn't what I want to tell you. Don't slowly ratchet up the value of the weapons...+3, +4, etc. This is a holdover from 2nd ed. A +5 weapon is way overated virtually what it actually does. Magical plus is virtually meaningless in 3.5 ed. I think you should give them interesting, unique items. Swords made of pure ice that never melt, of gemstone, sunlight, or demon souls (you can here the souls trapped inside screaming when you hold the sword). Don't box yourself into pluses and powers. How about a city in a crystal ball, with little people running around inside seemingly unaware of their condition? This is a pretty random post I know. Do with it what you will.
olshanski_home 03-12-04, 12:14 PM	Well, a +1 flaming longsword has a value of about 8265 gp. A person starting fifth level person should have about 9000 gp in equipment. A person starting sixth level should have about 13,000 Generally, a single item shouldn't be more than about 50% of a person's total wealth... so in that area, you are slightly generous... An +2 weapon isn't expected to be in people's hands until level 6 going by the books. On the other hand, if that is all you have given them, then you are being pretty stingy. Where are the +1 rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, amulets of natural armor, shields+1, chain shirts +2, Full plate +1, gloves of dexterity, ring of feather falling... etc? If your characters have big stats... plenty of 16s and 17s in thier stats... (32 point buy), it is ok to be stingy. If you are going by the book, and expect to throw appropriate CR challenges against them, then they will begin to have problems.
Vanigo 03-12-04, 05:42 PM	Originally posted by Pongolyn The fighter-types will probably pick up magic armor or a shield before they get their first +1 weapon, but that could happen anywhere between 3-8th level and still be considered reasonable by most. No, that would still be considered reasonable by you. I think it's a severely low-magic campaign if you don't get an item worth 2000 gp until eighth level. Not ultra-low, in which a 13th level fighter may still be using masterwork, but not many steps above that.
zodiki 03-12-04, 11:49 PM	Without sufficient magic items for the fighter/rogue types, the spellcasters will begin to dominate the party (because their access to magic is not limited). Just food for thought.
madoule 03-13-04, 01:06 AM	Yeah I like that uniqe weapon armor idea lots. :) Also, if your running low level stats stuff I find that items like the kind you can find in other games like pool of radiance, are good items to dole out very conservatory (do an add up of stats and determine that the item can't be used to muchcionize a char) Ring of brute strength get +2 str but -1 int and wis its a trade of magic item.. so these are fun to give out since they really dont hurt as much... since they balance out.. What do you think?
bigwyrm 03-15-04, 02:33 PM	Well, my party is running a high powered campaign. (roll 4 d6 five times, discard the lowest die) I personaly think that I have been stingy about it all, so I'm going to start throwing in some rings of protection and the like. Fixxxer, the monk has the longsword because he killed this the bbeg with a lucky die roll and demanded that he claim the sword left behind in his labratory area. And another thing, I think that its about time that my pc's be thrown into a long sotry line with some really big evil guy at the end of it all, but i'm all out of ideas for some reason this week, school is really draining me. If some of you guys could mention some adventure ideas for 4th to 5th level characters that would be cool. My pc's are wondering how to get to an elven city in hopes for finding some magical items to play with. What kind of adventure would beling around an elven city and what magical items would be found only in an elven city? thank for support. -tha wyrm.
Lord Crimson 03-15-04, 04:12 PM	Again, keep in mind that you don't have to give out AC-boosting or attack-boosting items. There are a lot of items out there that are not combat-oriented and more interesting to hand out. As for elven cities, well, they should be the only place one could find elven chain mail... not that the elves are usually big on selling such an item. also, magical musical instruments, magic longswords, lots of staves and wands, and probably a lot of items that have effects on nature. Perhaps the BBEG is an ancient lich that has decided that he wishes to smite the elven race for some perceived wrong from a thousand years ago. Or maybe just THIS city of elves.
Krelios 03-15-04, 04:19 PM	Well, my party is running a high powered campaign. (roll 4 d6 five times, discard the lowest die) What do you do for the sixth stat?
Illithidbix 03-15-04, 05:03 PM	No, providing you keep in mind things like your opponents DR I don't see any problem, in fact quite the opposite, I think the DMG suggests too much Magic, as I prefer to play in "grittier feeling" campaigns (and low magic is often a factor in this). I played a Homebrew Psionicist (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2414501&highlight=psion#post2414501) in my friends game, and by the time I was 7th level I only had a +1 chain shirt, a Quiver of Ehlonna and 14 +1 arrows (out of 20 I had started with at 3rd level... 6 were shot at a nasty wyrmling dragon that seemed rather resilient to my normal ones). I was perfectly fine with this, and not just because Tranq’s Psions have very low magic dependence. The campaign focused more on political intrigue than dungeon hacking, hence our opponents were normally NPC’s rather than monsters, and had a similar lack of magic gear, hence the lower level of magic was well balanced.
bitnine 03-15-04, 05:18 PM	Originally posted by Illithidbix I was perfectly fine with this, and not just because Tranq’s Psions have very low magic dependence.Heh, but it's certainly going to be a welcome boost to be a caster and shed some of that item dependancy in such environs. Suddenly an Eldritch Knight is looking a bit more attractive, and that straight fighter just a touch less so - particularly as the levels increase.
Illithidbix 03-15-04, 05:22 PM	Perhaps, but it won't make much difference, my DM's are smart enough to work around any blatent imbalances, and besides me and my friends tend to go for Character idea's and development because they're cool and fun to role-play rather than Min-Max reasons.
bigwyrm 03-16-04, 12:37 PM	I need a motive for the lich, some kind of evil cohorts that would be on the stepping ladder up to the lich, and of coarse, some magical items to go along with them.
MoonHawk 03-16-04, 01:11 PM	I also think that the D&D standard is a bit too generous, but it's totally up to the group. I used to be very generous, at least as generous as standard, perhaps a bit more so, but what changed my mind was: Me: The warhammer you found is +3! Player1: What about the longsword? Me: No, just the warhammer. Player1: Ah crap! Player2: Should we take it? Player1: I don't want it. Player2: Me neither. Player3: We can always sell it. Player1: Fine, you carry it. Player3: I don't want to carry it! And along with that was a similar episode involving a ring that no one wanted since they all already had two. As soon as magic items become commonplace and boring, then what's the fun of them? Now I'm a mean, stingy bastard, and when the PCs find a +1 dagger before 4th level they're thrilled. Of course, my whole gaming group has unanimously agreed that this is the level of treasure that we prefer.
Fixxxer 03-16-04, 03:46 PM	Originally posted by MoonHawk Me: The warhammer you found is +3! Player1: What about the longsword? Me: No, just the warhammer. Player1: Ah crap! Player2: Should we take it? Player1: I don't want it. Player2: Me neither. Player3: We can always sell it. Player1: Fine, you carry it. Player3: I don't want to carry it! Ah, the old Diablo I complex. "I don't need it, I don't want it, but since I'm going back to town anyway, I could use the extra 3gp to boost my already overflowing coffers." :D
TinManFan 03-16-04, 06:34 PM	Well, if your guys want items, let 'em take the crafting feats. Now, if you're "stingey", they have somehting to do about it, and that something leads to a very interesting side of the game. I was recently inducted into the crafter side of things and I love it. Now you can also control that side of things by avoiding handing out scrolls with the normal itembuilding spells on them so they can't pop 'em into spellbooks. (Magic Weapon, Chill/Heat Metal all those) Now a cleric crafter screws that one all to heck but oh well. Now if your guys start maiking lots of stuff, you don't have to leave any behind for them to find! Make all the baddies put class, allignment and race restrictions on their stuff so they're cheaper to make! Liches have to live on a budget too you know.
bigwyrm 03-19-04, 01:04 AM	how much does spellcasting on the fly cost? say, if the pc's ask a local mage for a cure serious wounds spell? ..... hey has anyone tried to listen to the dark side of the moon for sound effect while going into a mages house? or going through a portal?
TinManFan 03-19-04, 08:12 AM	50*spell level (Always up that. Mages need to make a living too) + 5 * Any XP
Quithion 03-19-04, 09:53 AM	I think you should be proud of yourself Bigwyrm. Alot of firsttime dms often give TOO much treasure. I myself have been guilty of that. I find that it is often easier to give out too little magical treasure then to take away a powerful item once it is given. If you feel bad perhaps through in an extra potion or scroll now and then. Useful powerful, but single use.
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-19-04, 11:09 AM	I had the same problem as DM with my first (and current) 3e campaign! And now that our first campaign is wrapping up in one more session (almost 3yrs in RL!), the one of the two biggest "problems" or issues I saw and the players saw after we discussed "lessons learned" from our first campaign was… drumroll.. #1 Treasure. Not enough. Characters under-equipped for their level. The other issue was… #2 Pace. D&D 3.x character advancement is much faster and balanced pace-wise between levels than 2e. Downtime has to be manually and regularly inserted by the DM. They're both related, in a way. With a faster-paced, fast level advancemet rate D&D game, if you're a DM who was used to 2e, you're naturally going to be "stingy" with treasure without even knowing it. I was routinely behind on the "GP Gear Value" for the PCs, and only starting doing a "Gear GPV Check" in later levels when they started to feel that they were a bit under-equipped for some of the monsters they were facing. Especially the Tier 2 warrior-types and Tier 2 casters who really need better gear to overcome not being #1 at what they do and have other options. And that results in players not having fun when they're not effective in combat, even if they are Tier 2's. So two pieces of advice: Keep Pace with Treasure Awards & Add Downtime to your Campaign. Do regular Gear GPV Checks if you or the players doubt they're on target for the treasure they should have at their level. Have each player total their gear GPV up every few levels, or each session, or live, whatever works. Make it important, or you'll naturally fall back into being "stingy," trust me! And for believability, Add Downtime, sprinkling liberally every few adventures, weeks, tendays, or sessions. Otherwise you end up straining to understand why there's so many 20th level 16-yr olds running around. Most great fantasy stories aren't about characters who reach 20th level in just 6 months of game/story time - that's just ridiculous. Plus, you obviously now give characters with Item Creation feats actual opportunities to use them!
TinManFan 03-19-04, 12:20 PM	Remember. When your guys get too strong, the guy with Mords Disj. can help you get rid of those unwanted Magic Items. Unwanted by the DM at least...
Lord Crimson 03-19-04, 02:07 PM	Ahhh.... Mordenkainen's Disjunction... What a wonderful spell... You realize that Gygax probably came up with it JUST to frag over players that he had given too much stuff to.
bigwyrm 03-19-04, 02:56 PM	I've been dming this party for about just less than a year, and its taken them this long to reach 5th level. alot of factors go into this, playing time ( once every week, or two weeks) pace of the game ( hard to keep with 5 high school freshman, and a 23 year old yelling at all of them to shut up) and me. like i said, I've been playing just about a year, but i still feel like i'm a newbie, i don' tknow why but i find it very difficult to keep a good rolling pace on a session. There are people talking and speaking out of their turn, i guees because they get bored on other peoples turns. sigh*.... so, the down time... i've always wondered how to get this part into the story. Should i show up at the next session saying " hey, you guys took a break for abuot a week, and this is what happened..." or should i ask them before hand what they would be doing over then next week?
TinManFan 03-19-04, 03:40 PM	No offense, but if they're complaining about not having stuff (Don't think you said they were), well good. Everybody wants something. Heck, my guy wants to make a ring of Wizardry I-IV. But just cause I want doesn't mean the DM should gimme enough xp and money to craft it (I think taking crafting feats is a pro-active approach to getting stuff) And hey, if they start getting bogged down, hey, throw a tough (not impossible) random encounter at them. Force them to get their heads back in the game. A Trio of Oddly tattooed human fighters with mysterious weapons attack, they beat them, all but a dagger dissapear with the bodies. The dagger is the only clue. No need to make it magic, btu a masterwork dagger that's mysterious. Tease them with the guy's weapons being all flashy with the magic and such and it'll wet their appitites. Now just make it that most of the flashy stuff was from combat feats and such, or personal spells, but get them into the game. If they're getting off track, maybe the encounters are only focusing on certain players' skills. That ahppened in one campaign. I was a wizard and everything we fought was a golem. I put up a wall of force and couldn't do anything else. Then each door was trapped 2-3 times over. I just sat there doing nothing while the theifs spent 1 hour rolling to disarmand add synergy binuses to the other one's rolls. That trio, instead of all fighters, maybe make them an appropriate villian for each member of your party. Make your guys use their best (Newest) skills, spells and techniques to take them down. That always makes someone feel good when their best spell is exactly what the situation calls for. That Bull's rush technique got me the attack of Opp I needed to kill that *******. Then with the clues they get there, anytime they hit a town, they'll be looking for clues as to that trio's bosses so they can have another dramatic fight. Now I'mnot saying go easy on them, but if your guys are about to go down, start fumbling here or there. Make them do less damage so your guys feel like they barely got away with their lives. That sense of "Oh my god, I almost died" gets attention back on the game. And if the guy still tells the freshmen to shut up, start docking him 100 XP for each time he harasses someone. Mean and no real reason for it, but it feels god anyway. :smirk:
Lord Crimson 03-19-04, 03:50 PM	Originally posted by bigwyrm ... like i said, I've been playing just about a year, but i still feel like i'm a newbie.... so, the down time... i've always wondered how to get this part into the story. Should i show up at the next session saying " hey, you guys took a break for abuot a week, and this is what happened..." or should i ask them before hand what they would be doing over then next week? I can totally understand bigwyrm... It happens to all good DMs at one time or another. A little self-doubt and humility simply make you a better DM. As for down-time... It sounds like you've got it. Just tell them: "Okay, you've been relaxing for a month... What have you all been doing and how are you paying the rent?" And then just go from person to person and get their answers. Some PCs will use this time to justify an on-coming interest in a prestige class... your spellcasters may spend time making items... Some will just sit and screw around... Just make sure that your players aren't given a chance to take TOO MUCH time with the downtime. I've had more than a few players try to foist an entire session of "let's focus on my PC" on me this way.
bigwyrm 03-19-04, 05:28 PM	I thank you all who contribute to this thread. I must admit to being stingy, but that just leaves my players thirsty for more of what dnd has to offer, and as long as i can use that to my advantage then the balls in my court. Just where i want it. The ranger in my party just found a helm of underwater breathing in an abandoned wizards tower which rest ontop of an underground labyrinth of caves filled with kuotoans.. this is funny... :b: me: ok, are you jumping down into the water through the small manhole? ranger: yea! I jump in with my helmet on and start to swim around. Can i breathe in water? :b: me: you jump into the water trying to breathe and you gasp for air as you choke on the water beggining to fill your lungs Monk: you forgot to avtivate it with the command word. ranger: whoops He got back out eventually and activated it, but was he supposed to take damage from the inhaled water? how would i have done that?
Fixxxer 03-20-04, 01:11 AM	Originally posted by bigwyrm He got back out eventually and activated it, but was he supposed to take damage from the inhaled water? how would i have done that? I'd say no, but since he actively tried to breathe while underwater, I'd say he's pretty much held up choaking and gagging for the next minute (6 rounds) or so. No big deal if there aren't any enemies nearby, but detrimental if there's a combat waiting to happen. Question: I'll assume that they found some way of identifying the item for what it was, but how would the monk of all people know that a command word was needed?
bigwyrm 03-20-04, 08:45 PM	well, before they all went into the water filled tunnel towards the underground cave complex, the ranger had searcherd the helmet and found the command word " hydropo" written in small lettering on the inside of the helmet. he just forgot about it before jumped into the water becasue he was happy that he had found the secret entrance to the caves hidden underneath some food sacs in the basement. The monk had seen him examine the helmet and knew what the ranger was doing wrong before he even jumped into the water. .. but the monk does get cocky here and there.... question.. how do you bring down a monk? are there any weaknesses to directly hit? hes a 3.0 monk.
akuthia 03-20-04, 10:14 PM	best way to bring any dex based class down is to grabble them, will take off that dex bonus (and the wisdom one as well) and that leather robe wont seem so protective...
Edymnion 03-20-04, 10:39 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer There's a barbarian and a ranger in the party and a monk has the flaming longsword? Wow. Yeah, thats what I'm thinking. Why does the monk have the flaming longsword? Unless he took a feat, he isn't even proficient in the thing, and if he did, he's losing out on his monk attacks to use it. That thing REALLY needed to go into the hands of someone that could actually use it, like the barbarian or ranger. I gotta repeat what Fixxxer said, wow. Talk about bad division of treasure.
bigwyrm 03-21-04, 02:57 AM	The monk is the oldest one in the party at 23 while the rest are high schoolers. He did take the feat, to tell you the truth he does'nt care about his monk abilities when he had found the longsword, he thought it was so cool because they never see an ounce of magical weapons. He's at fifth level and only two have been handed out. So, when he found it, he instantly wanted it. The rest of the group does'nt complain much because they also think its cool, " gnome rogue: a monk with longsword? cool." And it's dnd. The ranger is fighting with two weapons ( +1 barbed long sword of dehydration and another short sword. happyily) and the barbarian is in love with his masterwork orc double axe. I first thought it was bad treasure handling, but thats how it went on in the game, so thats how it went.
rogue_lettuce 03-21-04, 03:42 AM	Originally posted by bigwyrm The core rules give out magical items here and there, but they all raise the pc's offensive capabilities. Ok, then give them ioun stones or cloaks of elvenkind, or boots of energy resistance and tell me the magic items are all offensive. It's up to your intelligence to give them skill based or defensive items... My party is simply made for combat : orc barb, elv. monk, gnome monk, half elf ranger, gnome rogue3/ wizard2, and a female elf bard3. sooo too many magical item can really unbalance things. That party made for combaT? Ok, firstly you have a bard - nuff said :D and a rogue wiz. A combat built party is more Fighterx2, clericx1 (war domain,etc of course), barbx1, wizx1, monkx1. That's a scary party for a DM in combat!
bigwyrm 03-21-04, 03:51 PM	The bard just sings around baking everyones attack and damage bump up a level, while other times she sings to inspire competance.. its not a bad deal. She was introduced later in the game so shes 3rd level
DarkThoughts24 03-21-04, 10:05 PM	i am more generous with items, the other dm we have is less so (all campaigns end up most of the time, being pretty much near nekkid, stranded and hungry his way but the fun is gettin there) as long as the pcs arent aching without the enchanted gear they lack its a beautiful thing
Lord Crimson 03-22-04, 01:48 PM	Bigwyrm... I guess I'm still confused as to why you think all the magic items in the game are combat-oriented. There are so many that aren't (even in 3.0), I'm having trouble understanding why you think the opposite.
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-22-04, 03:06 PM	Non-combat oriented magic items, of all power levels, can add flavor and richness to a campaign. Some are mundane if you've been playing D&D for a while, like a Bag of Holding, but then there's always fun stuff be found under the "Wondrous" magic items categories. In fact, I always have to remind myself to throw out more of those "weird" magic items into the campaign to keep finding magic items fun, diffent and exciting. Everyone wants magic weapons and armor, but there's a time and place for unusual magic items as well - which often get the PCs attention more than most magic items.
TinManFan 03-22-04, 03:55 PM	My favprite 2e magic item in the books was the Crib that rocked gently when a baby was in it and made food and played soothing music and shook rattles for them too. most useless thing ever, but ti was cool.
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-22-04, 05:14 PM	Originally posted by TinManFan My favprite 2e magic item in the books was the Crib that rocked gently when a baby was in it and made food and played soothing music and shook rattles for them too. most useless thing ever, but ti was cool. Useless?? That would make a FORTUNE in the 21st century! What parent wouldn't want that?! Ahem... but seriously, your comment on the Magical Crib got me thinking about one the most creative and unique book and collections of magic items D&D ever released: Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue, I believe it ws called. Lots of interesting, to mundane, to flat out weird buys in a fantasy-themed and actual shopping catalogue format, soft-cover, and catalogue book sized, too. Actually added a lot of Forgotten Realmsian flavor to our campaigns - it was definitely a favorite of ours.
ShadowRanger 03-22-04, 06:15 PM	the treasure is fine as long as you don't send them against creatures with DR 10/+1 or something similiar (at least on a regular basis). Just make sure that comabt encounters are betable (and not through a string of 20's on there part and a string of 1's on yours)
Lord Crimson 03-23-04, 12:34 PM	Originally posted by Kilsek of Sheverash Useless?? That would make a FORTUNE in the 21st century! What parent wouldn't want that?! Ahem... but seriously, your comment on the Magical Crib got me thinking about one the most creative and unique book and collections of magic items D&D ever released: Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue, I believe it ws called. Lots of interesting, to mundane, to flat out weird buys in a fantasy-themed and actual shopping catalogue format, soft-cover, and catalogue book sized, too. Actually added a lot of Forgotten Realmsian flavor to our campaigns - it was definitely a favorite of ours. Yeah, another useful supplement in that regard were the old Encyclopeadia Magica series. They had things that had been published in Dragon Magazine, items from Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, all kinds of insane creative stuff... And, even better, it had ALL the info needed to use any of the items in-game.
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-23-04, 12:59 PM	Originally posted by Lord Crimson Yeah, another useful supplement in that regard were the old Encyclopeadia Magica series. They had things that had been published in Dragon Magazine, items from Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, all kinds of insane creative stuff... And, even better, it had ALL the info needed to use any of the items in-game. Definitely! Between my friends and I we collected all of those Encyclopedia Magica books as well, including the ones for Magic Items and the ones for Spells. Truly awesome, exhaustive collections, and it was the Dragon-mag based material that was a treat bc a lot of some of us had never heard of some of the spells or magic items or remembered them from checking out a Dragon mag here and there.
da chicken 03-23-04, 01:09 PM	Originally posted by Eldren The values listed in the Dungeon Master's Guide for how much a given PC should have at "X" level are good for building PCs above 1st level. They often don't work so well when you're actually starting at 1st level and slowly leveling the characters up. It's too easy for the Dungeon Master to feel hamstrung by those totals, and artificially inflate (or deflate, if he's been giving away too much) the treasure values in order to keep with those totals. When leveling PCs, those totals should be used more as guidelines. That's true, but they're also used as the baseline for CR. As the PCs increase in level, their ability to deal with equal CR encounters requires that level of equipment. If you ignore the wealth-by-level guidelines, you need to keep that in mind when designing encounters because CR is now whacked. Fighting against most classed NPCs shouldn't be a problem (since they should be similarly or worse equipped, in general), but fighting monstrous NPCs -- particularly undead and outsiders -- is going to require increasingly more CR readjustment as the PC progress.
bigwyrm 03-23-04, 02:21 PM	cr's are so messed in my game. Without all the magical items in the pc's inventory i have to adjust the cr of the monsters down, But due to the party having all great stats ( its a high powered campaign) the cr's are a little tricky to get to their level. And because of them being high powered, most magical items that boost stats i don't like to give out.
Arbitrary Aardvark 03-23-04, 03:46 PM	Originally posted by zodiki Without sufficient magic items for the fighter/rogue types, the spellcasters will begin to dominate the party (because their access to magic is not limited). Just food for thought. Unless there isn't very much non-magic treasure, in which case the wizards are really out of luck. A fifth-level wizard should have about 9000 gp worth of stuff. Let's assume you start him at 5th level +1000, so he has a little to play with in terms of magic items. He's likely to have 10 assorted 1st level scrolls he scribed (250 gp) 10 assorted 2nd level scrolls he scribed (750 gp) Wand of magic missle he made (CL 5), 40 charges left) (1500) 4 new 3rd level spells (450 each) (1800) 6 new 2nd level spells (300 each) (1800) 6 new 1st level spells (150 each) (900) Cloak of resistance +1 (1000) 1000 gp of mundane stuff, spell components etc. [Spells cost 100gp/level to write into the spell book, and it typically costs 50 gp/level to pay someone to let you copy it from them] In a really cash-starved campaign, wizards won't be able to afford new spells.
Arbitrary Aardvark 03-23-04, 03:49 PM	Originally posted by TinManFan Well, if your guys want items, let 'em take the crafting feats. Now, if you're "stingey", they have somehting to do about it, and that something leads to a very interesting side of the game. Only if they have cash. I remember trying to scrape together enough money to make a cloak of resistance +1 (500 gp), that I could sell to get enough money to make an amulet of wisdom +2. This was, BTW, a 7th level character.
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-23-04, 08:10 PM	It almost seems not worth bothering with the Treasure Tables for the various CR-based treasure awards. Instead, why not use the PC Gear Value Table and just fulfill the difference from one XP level to the next? A lot simpler, but then you have a real guide that's based on PC LEVEL and not Monster CR. After the experience of my first 3.x 1st-25th level campaign, the #1 lesson learned for me was that my PCs were always underequipped. Tracking the PC Gear Value Table more closely and doing more frequent "sanity checks" will be something I do more next campaign. A large part of it for me was the 2e hangover of less gp value and slower advancement once you hit level 9. It's just bigger and faster now in 3.x, which is good - especially the faster part. We actually got to high level play and kept advancing in levels, wow, so novel!
Ehelonna 03-23-04, 11:43 PM	Originally posted by bigwyrm I have a party of 5 fifth level pcs, and one 3rd level bard. They all recentlly just got to fifth level after a battle with kuo toans. Anywhoo, they don't have too many magical items, swords mostly, two to be exact. A flaming longsword +1, and another +1 bone sword of dehydration ( +1 damage every round after intial attack succes). add a ring of minor spell storing and that raps it up. Am I being to selfish with the stuff that i'm giving them? They all have masterwork weapons.You aren't being stingy, but you are distributing things in an odd manner. :angel: The average wealth table says that they, as a party should have more than 45,000 gp (5*9,000gp) and less than 65,000 gp between them. They have: +1 Flaming sword: 8,315 gp +1 sword of dehydrations (as 3.0 wounding) 18,315 gp ring of spell storing, minor, 18,000 gp For a total of 44,630 gp in magic items. Adding in the masterwork items and other mundane treasure, that's quite a reasonable total for their level. However, they don't seem to have anything small, +1 weapons, armour, cloaks of resitance or other wonderous items. Two of those items are worth double what a 5th level character's total wealth should be... so two characters have nothing so far. In some ways it would have been better if they had found a bunch of minor items instead of one of those big ones. And by the way how available are the exotic weapons to your characters? Do they have to travel far to obtain kamas or a katana, how about shurikens? This is my first campaign. - tha wyrm It depends on the area and how common they are. A Dwarven Waraxe is very unlikely to be found in an elven town, but trivial to find in a Dwarven stronghold. A spiked chain would be quite difficult to find if you aren't near a town with a gladiatorial arena.
bigwyrm 03-24-04, 12:57 AM	i have noticed this infraction in my playing through this boards thread.. but thank you. My next question is.... what kind of items are you guys throwing at your party as small and mundane magical itmes? and which ones do not give them some offensive booster, but instead will just add some sort of interesting aspect to the game? i know ioun stones are pretty cool, some others? - tha wyrm
Lord Crimson 03-25-04, 02:49 PM	Here are a few just from panning through my DMG (3.5): Potion of Pass Without Trace Potion of Remove Blindness/Deafness Potion of Water Walk Ring of Jumping Ring of Climbing Ring of Telekinesis Ring of Elemental Command (Water) Immovable Rods Rod of Wonder Scroll of (any non-combat spell) Staff of Illumination Staff of Size Alteration Wand of Levitate Wand of Charm Animal Wand of Light Bag of Tricks (Gray) Belt of Dwarvenkind Boat, Folding Boccob's Blessed Book Boots and/or Cloak of Elvenkind Bottle of Air Candle of Truth Cloak of Arachnida Crystal Ball Cubic Gate Decanter of Endless Water Deck of Illusions Dust of Dryness And so on and so forth... As you can see, I only got as far as "D" in the Wondrous Items section. There's a lot more where all that came from.
TinManFan 03-25-04, 03:04 PM	Always need a Heward's Handy Haversack. With all the scrolls and potions people carry around, knowing you can reach in a bag and pull the right one out first is handy! Plus I think it's pretty cheap for what it does. A nice Potion/Scroll/Wand bag. And it carries a nice amount of gold too so that won't weigh you down. Also, instead of handing out multiple potions and scrolls, why not hand out a wand or two? A wand of cure lt wounds is always better than 50 potions of it. And a little bit cheaper I believe. Plus only certain classes can use it so less people grabbing for the darn thing. Other items I like: Gloves of Storing (Screw the quick draw feat), Anythng that makes food and water (hate crossing off rations), and lots of dull grey ioun stones. Except for a psion who can suck one up for a power point, they do nothing but are cool. Oh, and a +5 Wisdom Book that's an Illusion will always :censored::censored::censored::censored: them off. :angel:
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-25-04, 05:08 PM	As I've essentially said earlier, Wonderous Items that do weird or just non-combat oriented things are great for keeping a treasure hoard and campaign fresh. They often open up fun and memorable role playing opportunities too. And best of all, lots (but not all) of them are INEXPENSIVE, meaning the DM rarely has to worry about overpowering the PCs with these kinds of treasues. :)
StoryTellerSJEM 03-25-04, 05:43 PM	MY FEELING: A DM should figure out how magic based his campaign is and the so-called ramifications. This is more important than it sounds b/c it will lead you campaign down a certain path. For instance, how accessible are certain spells, especially the powerful ones? Why are their castles if disintegrates are easily available as spells? Why do castles have roofs if fly is readily available? Are there very few wizards or can anyone, based on INT, become a wizard? Same goes for other spellcasters. If fireballs and other area effect spells are available and spellcasters are a part of armies, the entire military tactics should change (i.e. no more compacted knightly charges). How many spellcasters of 12th lvl or higher are around? This will determine who's in power and who is not. I could go on but I won't. It's a long and interesting subject for me, as I feel most games have too much magic. Once you give magic to players, it's hard to take it away w/o them getting resentful. EXAMPLE: in my 12th lvl game, the best weapon ever possessed was +2; the best armor was +3 and that was lost by the player; we don't have cubes of force or too many moderate magic items. I use a lot of charged items so players don't keep them forever.
bigwyrm 03-25-04, 09:16 PM	those are the best points on the thread. Magic has a big reflecting role in campaigns as much as players do. What is avaliable is what makes the campaign powerful or not. -tha wyrm
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-26-04, 12:25 AM	What is available for magic treasure does have a huge effect on the campaign's power level, no question. Remember however that the standard 3e campaign has more magic available on average than 2e ever did, in large part due to more balanced level advancement from lvls 1-20. It wasn't unusual to have +2 or +3 weapons around 10th-12th level in 2e, but the way the 3e game is setup, there's simply more magic items available faster now - monster CRs are designed to keep up with that. That's the biggest problem that comes of being "too stingy" in 3e - the fact that the PCs can become very underequipped to face monster CR's at their level. It became painfully obvious in my group in the high teens and into epic levels. So, next time, I'll be a little more generous, even though as a DM, it's always in the back of your mind to be careful about "giving out too much," and it'll probably be a bit of struggle for me.
Quithion 03-26-04, 05:30 AM	A simple item that is useful for a party Eternal Torch ( I forget the name , dont have my books) 90 gp. Its basically a torch that doesnt go out unless the command word is spoken. Very useful . Also +1 shields i think are only 1300 or so gp ? Magical Swords are 2k + for a +1 And every party needs potions of Cure XXXXX Wounds.