Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UltimateReality 05-13-07, 12:38 PM	Warning: vent post about purely social drama ahead. I'm beginning to think I might have such a sign, or maybe a tattoo plastered on my forehead. I'm trying to DM a group, but for the life of me it just isn't coming together. Session 1: I pulled together a group consisting of my husband, my sister, and my sis's boyfriend. They made characters. We agreed on a date for the next session to start playing. Sister and boyfriend don't show up. Or call. They're unreachable by cell and landline. 'Kay, forget that idea. Session 2: Put together a new group consisting of husband and three friends (A and B are roommates, C lives directly below our apartment.) Set a time and date for character creation and playing. A and B show up half an hour late (got their munchies from the store), and C has to be fetched from his apartment. We play. Everyone seems to enjoy themselves -- no one falls asleep, they're all paying attention, they're planning stuff and interacting with NPCs. Before anyone leaves, we set a clear date and time for next session. Player C needs it to end by a certain time because he has commitments. Session 3: Early in the week, A calls my husband to say that he realized he had a prior social commitment and can't make it. He makes arrangements for B to bring his character and play him. Come the day of the session...nothing. I wait for an hour and a half. No B, no C. Husband and I say "screw it" and go out for a weekend afternoon in the countryside, hanging out by the lake, checking out an abandoned farmhouse, and eating crappy Chinese food in a small town. All these players have played under my husband as DM. All of them show up within 15 minutes of gametime either way. Am I seriously worth that much less respect? Is my DMing that bad? Do they not like playing with my husband as a player? Are they seriously expecting me to put a houserule about no-call, no-shows into my handouts? It's a game. It's a social commitment. To friends. Who are people. And it's not like I didn't spend any time or effort planning an adventure -- I don't do prefabs. Don't get me wrong, emergencies happen. And they have our phone numbers to call us afterward and let us know. WTF? It's time to find other players.
Baloth King 05-13-07, 12:53 PM	Not trying to be sexist here, but perhaps it's because you're a woman? I mean, if my DM was a woman, I wouldn't show her any less respect than I do others (granted, that's not a lot, but still) and perhaps you should ask your husband if you can get new players who are willing to play under you.
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 12:57 PM	I'm trying to DM a group, but for the life of me it just isn't coming together. My friend keeps trying to run games and seems shocked when they don't happen, whereas usually I organise mine and it all flows together (except for my latest effort, but that's a rant in itself waiting to happen). Now, I can't say for sure that the situations are the same. But I'll tell you what I've learned and maybe it'll help you out. A lot of newer DMs think that because they need to put in the most work, people will appreciate their efforts. They think that by announcing their game they'll have players flock to them yearning to play. They think that players will be coming to them with completed character sheets. They think that players will actually read any handouts you give them. I've learned better. Being a DM is a thankless job, where you will never get respect. In order to do it properly you work for hours overtime, creating things that the players trash with malevolent glee. Players are like children and you need to be their nursemaid. You chase them up for their character sheets, organise times, remind them continously and if you're lucky after a few years tradition will start to stick and people will finally rock up. It's a dark, dirty job and the only reason people do it is as a labour of love. Because we know deep in our souls, that we must run this game. It's like the worst parts of being a writer, producer, director, actor, architect, babysitter, lawyer and psychologist all rolled together, except we have to do it untrained and by the seat of our pants. Maybe we're insane, maybe we're just devoted. But we do this for years upon end without thanks for the hope that one day, when a game finishes, people will turn around and say "that was the best campaign ever". You call yourself a DM? Then, Yes. You are wearing a big neon sign that says "walk all over me". Wow, I thought I was going to just write some advice and I pump out "the DM's manifesto". Guess that issue's been plagueing my mind too for a while. Thanks for the chance to vent.
Molitor 05-13-07, 01:09 PM	Are they seriously expecting me to put a houserule about no-call, no-shows into my handouts? Handouts? Can you elaborate on this.
UltimateReality 05-13-07, 01:18 PM	Handouts? Can you elaborate on this. Yeah, you know, the document that tops out at one page, single-sided max. It contains houserules (like "you die at -(Con score + level) instead of -10") and character creation methods ("5d6, drop the lowest two; start at 3rd level"). I thought, having gamed with this group in various permutations for nearly 5 years, that "call me if you're not going to show up" no longer needed to be put on that piece of paper. Apparently I was wrong. perhaps it's because you're a woman?If these were guys off the street, I'd be more inclined to think so. I've known most of them for 4 or 5 years, hell, one of them was my own sister. (It's not to say there aren't unconscious power issues -- there may well be. I'm clueless enough to not be aware of them unless anyone told me, too.) I'll tell you what I've learned and maybe it'll help you out.Thanks for your post. Looking back over the years I've gamed with these people while others (usually my husband) DMed, I had to laugh at the recognition of nearly every point in your post. I don't expect them to live for the game or anything, but really, after 5 years of friendship, is a phone call too much to ask? One of them had it figured out. ALL of them have cell phones. I also have to say, while your post describes the vast majority of groups that I've seen, I have also been privelege to a very different kind of group that wasn't llike that at all. Perhaps it spoiled me. (Coincidentally and possibly unrelated, it was a game with only women players...)
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 01:31 PM	I had to laugh at the recognition of nearly every point in your post. Ah, my lifetime of pain condenced to 3 paragraphs of humour. No, seriously, while I've experienced everything there, it's not all like that. It just can be sometimes. after 5 years of friendship, is a phone call too much to ask? No, that's just rude of them. But I'd be lying if I said I hadn't seen it happen before. I have also been privelege to a very different kind of group that wasn't llike that at all. Yeah, I've been that lucky myself at times. Unfortunately my own "perfect" group, just split up (moving and job issues, that rant I said before was waiting to happen) so now I'm back in the market facing all those old demons. Thankfully, I found a great new player in my area thanks to this very board :D. Thankyou WoTC. (Coincidentally and possibly unrelated, it was a game with only women players...) Who knows. While I understand the broad physical differences between male and female gamers, there are an infinite assortment of subtle nuances to trick the expectations and trip up your training. I've only gamed with a few women before, but in my experience they are often the most dedicated and devoted having faced the gauntlet of entering a hobby not common amongst their gender.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 05-13-07, 02:05 PM	Just out of ciousoty commener what area you in. Yaa it's been my experience that women are the best gamers too. For numeriouse reasons. The most probinant being a distinct lack of assholishness about most things.
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 02:36 PM	Just out of ciousoty commener what area you in. Southeastern suburbs, Adelaide hills, Adelaide, South Australia, Australia, Earth, Sol.
KJW 05-13-07, 05:07 PM	I think their conduct is very rude and inappropriate, at least calling before not attending a session is a basic rule that doesn't need to be on a handout. Personally, I bend over backwards to help, and encourage, new DMs as a player, but then again that is likely because I am a DM as Optimized_Commoner says we are a breed upon ourselves. :) Now players also do not like change, if I suggest a change from D&D to d20 Future, Rifts, or something for a few weeks a quarter of my group with drop out till we come back to D&D and another quarter lacks any real enthusiasm for the venture. The remaining players make it enjoyable, but it is rather depressing. To be honest, I consider sci-fi to be my strong suit as a DM, but D&D is the favorite of my players so that is what I do (thank the gods for solo campaigns). But, sadly, there might be something to the wife factor as well. My wife has had a similar problem the few times she has guest DMed my group, their enthusiasm plummets, their interest wanes, and attendance drops. For some reason they expect her to be a bad DM, which is surprising as they consider her the best roleplayer in the group and she has more experience as a player than any of them. Having been a player in her solo campaigns I can say my wife is a good DM...and she DMs very much like I do, so it always strikes me as odd when this happens. Now I will admit her table presence is weaker than mine, but we are doing online gaming so this is not a factor. In the same sense, one of male players guest DMed for awhile and had lots of enthusiasm, but he has DMed them before and that makes a difference. But the annoying thing is that my wife is a better DM than he is, but the group never really gave her a chance. It is very frustrating as I like being a player and, to be honest, my wife is the only person in my group who can DM at a level that I will enjoy as a player. My only advice is to not take this personally, the few times my wife tried to DM my group their reaction made her doubt her ability to DM. Don't do this. The problem is with the players not with you, that is very important. When you husband says you are a good DM he means it. It has taken me a decade and then some, but I finally have convinced my wife of this.
Radijs 05-13-07, 05:33 PM	I was looking at O_C's post and I went like Bwaaaa (http://www.nl.lspace.org/fandom/cons/dwcon98/chronicle/issue2/images/bursar.jpg)?
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 06:34 PM	I was looking at O_C's post and I went like Bwaaaa (http://www.nl.lspace.org/fandom/cons/dwcon98/chronicle/issue2/images/bursar.jpg)? There is a very real chance I need more dried frog pills. I'm quiet badly sleep deprived and suffering from insomnia. Hopefully I will be able to fall asleep before I rant about kender in my sock-drawer. <sob> I don't even have a sock draw.
KillerGM 05-13-07, 06:49 PM	I think a good way to help curb this is to set a specific day, every week (or every other, or whatever timeframe works), that everyone can consistently get together on. All too often, when you leave planning for the next session till the end of the current session, there is a distinct lack of commitment. When I run a game, I try to accomidate schedules, etc. BUT I also set a consistent date to play. My group happens to have Sunday afternoons/evenings consistently free. I run a game starting a 3pm. That is the expected time, every week, for people to show up. Obviously, there are always things that come up (Mother's Day being the reason I'm not running today). But my players also know not to make plans on Sunday evenings, because they've already made a commitment to the game. I'm not saying that they didn't act rudely - they did. I drop people for not showing up and not calling. Period. I drop people if they can't consistently (usually 3 times) make the game. I agree that it *is* a social commitment. All rules of etiquette apply - meaning, if you say you'll be there, then be there. If you can't make it, let the organizer (the DM) know, AS SOON AS YOU KNOW YOU CAN'T MAKE IT. AND you should bring this up with your players. A lot of bad behavior is simple ignorance, and people assume that silence denotes consent. Simply tell them that if they're not going to show up, please call, and that you felt it was rude of them to blow you off after you made preparations for a game. And then, give them another chance. I think finding a consistent date to hold the games, rather than leaving it up in the air from week to week, could really help get a "commited" mentality. I hope my suggestion might help keeping a consistent group together for you! And DM'ing is a pretty thankless job. Optimized_Commoner pretty much hit that one on the head. With a maul. :D
Noon 05-13-07, 07:18 PM	All these players have played under my husband as DM. All of them show up within 15 minutes of gametime either way. Am I seriously worth that much less respect? Is my DMing that bad? Do they not like playing with my husband as a player? Wait, wait, wait, you have a job, right? With a boss above you? Now say you know your boss well, you get along and your willing to go the extra mile for him/her. Say he goes on holidays - some other guy comes in and wears his hat. Does that mean, cause he's wearing the boss hat, you'll go the extra mile for him? Does the boss/GM hat really matter? No, it's the person. Just because you put on the GM hat doesn't mean you get what the other person got. That said, they are being rude. But the fact is - well, can they tell you they disliked anything about your game, without putting social ties at you at major risk? I once told a guy I was friends with for some time (and who had strongly critiqued my games for ages) that he'd run a poor game. Just once. Man he got seriously ****** off. Keep in mind they may not be in love with your husbands game either - but like the boss you know well, they go the extra mile and keep returning.
TVLLestatTVL 05-13-07, 07:26 PM	Not to be mean or sexist about the situation. ( I hold women in high regard) but, maybe your husband should go back to DMing for everyone if you still want to play. Obviously they were more comfortable with how he DM's maybe how he acts out the characters? Maybe, the way he interacts with PC's as a whole? Could be a combination of things or something entirely different. If you are set on DMing maybe you could take a back seat DM approach? You write out all of the DM material and go over it with your husband and then he uses the material in the sessions.
green_yawgmoth 05-13-07, 07:34 PM	I think your best bet would be to send them a link to this post. Tell them that they need to read it. Then, tell them that if anyone no-call no-shows again, the game is over. Permanently. People who act like this do not deserve friends, and the fact that you've known them for 5 years and that they never pulled any of this when your husband DMed just disgusts me further. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Molitor 05-13-07, 09:49 PM	Yeah, you know, the document that tops out at one page, single-sided max. It contains houserules (like "you die at -(Con score + level) instead of -10") and character creation methods ("5d6, drop the lowest two; start at 3rd level"). I thought, having gamed with this group in various permutations for nearly 5 years, that "call me if you're not going to show up" no longer needed to be put on that piece of paper. Apparently I was wrong. OK, see the reason I asked was perhaps you make it seem more like 'work' than 'fun'. But if this is something your group has had for a while then I'm probably wrong.
Madoffler 05-14-07, 01:10 AM	It's a dark, dirty job and the only reason people do it is as a labour of love. Because we know deep in our souls, that we must run this game. It's like the worst parts of being a writer, producer, director, actor, architect, babysitter, lawyer and psychologist all rolled together, except we have to do it untrained and by the seat of our pants. Maybe we're insane, maybe we're just devoted. But we do this for years upon end without thanks for the hope that one day, when a game finishes, people will turn around and say "that was the best campaign ever". It's been said many times many ways but I think this sums it up pretty elequently...
KismetRose 05-14-07, 03:47 AM	One of the first things that I suggest you do is this: give them another try. If they don't show up or call, then face them about it directly (or at least get them on the phone). Approach them as friends and tell them that the least they can do is call to let you know they'll be late or unable to make the game. But tell them that you really hope they'll show up because you're excited about running. Then give them another try. Those who don't show, don't bother to try to run for again. If folks show, then go for it. If this group doesn't work out, don't give up. See if you can find other people because there are folks out there who really want to play.
High Octane 05-14-07, 04:37 AM	Have you brought this up with them? Are your sessions happening while your husband is still DMing with them another game or is this the only game they are in right now? Have their lives changed signifigantly?
kelvinaw273 05-14-07, 05:19 AM	Whenever I run a game, chasing players is a significant part of my prep, especially in the first few sessions. Always call and remind them a day or so before the session. A pain, but at least they can't say they 'forgot'. I have also resorted to giving them free food as an incentive, and made sure scheduling is a weekday evening because, although time is limited, people tend not to schedule commitments at these times, whereas weekends can be harsh. If you have a lot of 'casual' players, try this for a format: Make one regular player (sounds like your husband) the 'core' of the group. His character gets assigned missions for which he recruits the rest of the team (i.e. the characters of the players that show) for the job. Half of all loot is pooled as 'party loot' to be distributed among characters next adventure (then recalled afterwards); characters not present get 50% of the experience of those that attended. Did this for a Shadowrun game when we had around 8 part-time players or players that kept wanting to try different concepts and one (me) player prepared to make it every week - and it worked brilliantly.
savagetroll 05-14-07, 01:20 PM	I don't know what is so hard about showing up on time or notifying others when you can't make it. I've never stood anybody up or been more than 20 minutes late for any gaming session in over 20 years. I cannot say the same for most other gamers cause 9 out of 10 that I have met are selfish and disrespectful in general. Sure the first couple sessions they are nice and friendly but their true nature shows itself soon enough.
Jonathan Drain 05-14-07, 03:20 PM	When a person says they'll join your game, don't take that statement at face value until they make it to a session. In my online games, I always recruit five or six players for a four-player game, simply because I expect that a few will fail to show or will quit early on. Getting a game going can be quite difficult.
DyloniusFunk 05-14-07, 05:35 PM	Now players also do not like change, if I suggest a change from D&D to d20 Future, Rifts, or something for a few weeks a quarter of my group with drop out till we come back to D&D and another quarter lacks any real enthusiasm for the venture. The remaining players make it enjoyable, but it is rather depressing. To be honest, I consider sci-fi to be my strong suit as a DM, but D&D is the favorite of my players so that is what I do (thank the gods for solo campaigns). But, sadly, there might be something to the wife factor as well. My wife has had a similar problem the few times she has guest DMed my group, their enthusiasm plummets, their interest wanes, and attendance drops. For some reason they expect her to be a bad DM, which is surprising as they consider her the best roleplayer in the group and she has more experience as a player than any of them. Having been a player in her solo campaigns I can say my wife is a good DM...and she DMs very much like I do, so it always strikes me as odd when this happens. Now I will admit her table presence is weaker than mine, but we are doing online gaming so this is not a factor. In the same sense, one of male players guest DMed for awhile and had lots of enthusiasm, but he has DMed them before and that makes a difference. But the annoying thing is that my wife is a better DM than he is, but the group never really gave her a chance. It is very frustrating as I like being a player and, to be honest, my wife is the only person in my group who can DM at a level that I will enjoy as a player. Let's be fair here, you are in a position to be biased. Of course your gonna say your wife is a good DM. It dosen't excuse your players for not wanting her to DM. Maybe the problem is that because she's a heavy roleplayer they think eh games will be nothing but dialouges and spending 4 hours chating with NPCS with maybe one combat at the very end.
KJW 05-14-07, 06:30 PM	Let's be fair here, you are in a position to be biased. Of course your gonna say your wife is a good DM. It dosen't excuse your players for not wanting her to DM. Maybe the problem is that because she's a heavy roleplayer they think eh games will be nothing but dialouges and spending 4 hours chating with NPCS with maybe one combat at the very end. Yeah, probably a little biased. ;) Still I have played under nearly 20 DMs and have DMed for over 20 years for lots of players and ... my wife is a good DM. Honestly, she used to be really weak (way too heavy-handed), but nowadays (after 14 years of gaming) she is as good a DM as I am, and, honestly, better in several areas. The thing is that her style of DMing is really my style of DMing with two exceptions: A) she runs a slightly faster paced game with more action and B) she spends more time on adventure design and has better crafted adventures. Seriously, her adventures are BETTER than mine, its just that I can write and run five adventures in the time it takes her to write and run one adventure. Quantity is my main advantage and why she keeps me around. :) No, my players have a bias against her and it either has to do with the fact she is female or my wife. They are very respectful of her as a player, but they just don't respect her as a DM. It is disappointing. Something that is interesting is that a few of my online sessions have mostly been run by my wife, while I am handling monsters she is running NPCs and describing the scene (she is way faster in typing than I am)...the players have fun and often say these sessions were great. I may try one week having my wife run a session in my name and I bet you they will say it was a great session...actually this is not a bad idea.
UltimateReality 05-14-07, 08:00 PM	No, my players have a bias against her and it either has to do with the fact she is female or my wife. They are very respectful of her as a player, but they just don't respect her as a DM.This is disappointing from the wife's angle too. We exist in a largely male-dominated hobby, and there is, at least I think for most of us, a tendancy to try and fit in with "the guys". Some of them take it better than others. ;) There's also a weird dynamic when you're "the DM's wife"...especially if you host the game and play in it too. Anyway, as with all overblown social drama this one has an easy answer. Player B has recently acquired his own phone and did not have our phone numbers in it, so he couldn't call us to say he couldn't make it. He didn't want to try and play A's character -- felt he wouldn't be able to do it justice. (And I can't blame him for that.) The fact that he lives only two blocks away and could have just come down to tell us that and hang out? Well, D&D players aren't normal like that. :P We have his cell and he has ours now, so that's all good. Player C was going to watch the hockey playoffs with another friend. That friend happened to drop by early. (And, knowing the friend, he wouldn't have been able to get him to leave.) So, problem solved. The game shall go on. Thanks for commiseration, advice, and sharing all your experiences. :)
Michael Silverbane 05-14-07, 08:18 PM	I'm glad that your drama seems to be on the verge of settling down... Also, I can't believe that noone suggested that maybe you should kill them and take their stuff... That is, after all, what D&D is all about, right? ;) Later silver
The Jake 05-14-07, 08:30 PM	You are being too nice. You need to be assertive. You need to tell people whats required. If a time is finalised then it is done. You don't cancel unless its an emergency and if you need to (and it does happen) then you need to give as much forewarning as possible. If they can't abide by basic rules of courtesy then quite frankly, I'd tell them to **** off. Look people can be late, entire groups can have trouble finding a mutually agreeable time in which they can play. But there is no excuse for standing people up IMHO, especially if they're supposed to be friends of yours. - J.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 05-14-07, 09:49 PM	I'm glad that your drama seems to be on the verge of settling down... Also, I can't believe that noone suggested that maybe you should kill them and take their stuff... That is, after all, what D&D is all about, right? ;) Later silver Thats what happens if the :censored: miss another session like that....:devil:
Wizard Random 05-15-07, 01:41 AM	My friend keeps trying to run games and seems shocked when they don't happen, whereas usually I organise mine and it all flows together (except for my latest effort, but that's a rant in itself waiting to happen). Now, I can't say for sure that the situations are the same. But I'll tell you what I've learned and maybe it'll help you out. A lot of newer DMs think that because they need to put in the most work, people will appreciate their efforts. They think that by announcing their game they'll have players flock to them yearning to play. They think that players will be coming to them with completed character sheets. They think that players will actually read any handouts you give them. I've learned better. Being a DM is a thankless job, where you will never get respect. In order to do it properly you work for hours overtime, creating things that the players trash with malevolent glee. Players are like children and you need to be their nursemaid. You chase them up for their character sheets, organise times, remind them continously and if you're lucky after a few years tradition will start to stick and people will finally rock up. It's a dark, dirty job and the only reason people do it is as a labour of love. Because we know deep in our souls, that we must run this game. It's like the worst parts of being a writer, producer, director, actor, architect, babysitter, lawyer and psychologist all rolled together, except we have to do it untrained and by the seat of our pants. Maybe we're insane, maybe we're just devoted. But we do this for years upon end without thanks for the hope that one day, when a game finishes, people will turn around and say "that was the best campaign ever". You call yourself a DM? Then, Yes. You are wearing a big neon sign that says "walk all over me". Wow, I thought I was going to just write some advice and I pump out "the DM's manifesto". Guess that issue's been plagueing my mind too for a while. Thanks for the chance to vent. BRAVO :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:
TVLLestatTVL 05-15-07, 02:15 AM	BRAVO :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: I do have to admit that is one moving quote. Too bad it's too big to be siggied such a waste. It's epic. Epics I tell ya!!!
DyloniusFunk 05-15-07, 02:27 AM	My friend keeps trying to run games and seems shocked when they don't happen, whereas usually I organise mine and it all flows together (except for my latest effort, but that's a rant in itself waiting to happen). Now, I can't say for sure that the situations are the same. But I'll tell you what I've learned and maybe it'll help you out. A lot of newer DMs think that because they need to put in the most work, people will appreciate their efforts. They think that by announcing their game they'll have players flock to them yearning to play. They think that players will be coming to them with completed character sheets. They think that players will actually read any handouts you give them. I've learned better. Being a DM is a thankless job, where you will never get respect. In order to do it properly you work for hours overtime, creating things that the players trash with malevolent glee. Players are like children and you need to be their nursemaid. You chase them up for their character sheets, organise times, remind them continously and if you're lucky after a few years tradition will start to stick and people will finally rock up. It's a dark, dirty job and the only reason people do it is as a labour of love. Because we know deep in our souls, that we must run this game. It's like the worst parts of being a writer, producer, director, actor, architect, babysitter, lawyer and psychologist all rolled together, except we have to do it untrained and by the seat of our pants. Maybe we're insane, maybe we're just devoted. But we do this for years upon end without thanks for the hope that one day, when a game finishes, people will turn around and say "that was the best campaign ever". You call yourself a DM? Then, Yes. You are wearing a big neon sign that says "walk all over me". Wow, I thought I was going to just write some advice and I pump out "the DM's manifesto". Guess that issue's been plagueing my mind too for a while. Thanks for the chance to vent. I do have to admit that is one moving quote. Too bad it's too big to be siggied such a waste. It's epic. Epics I tell ya!!! Actually if you take out the last paragraph it comes to 1812 characters with spaces. So you could have it in your sig but that would be pretty much all would have:D
RevIron 05-15-07, 08:50 AM	I do have to admit that is one moving quote. Too bad it's too big to be siggied such a waste. It's epic. Epics I tell ya!!! You could always just post a link to the whole thing in your sig. Try this for the entire post: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12384253&postcount=3 Meanwhile I have nothing to add to the original problems other than my general congratulations at sorting it out, and advising of the need to remind them about calling if they can't make it (I feel C should have called when the guy showed if he could - I would have asked the guy to wait inside whilst I called you in that situation, although my DM usually knows at least two weeks in advance if I won't be coming).
green_yawgmoth 05-15-07, 09:51 AM	I do have to admit that is one moving quote. Too bad it's too big to be siggied such a waste. It's epic. Epics I tell ya!!! If you're gonna quote it, put it in sblock things. Like this!: you copy and paste it here. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif