Am I Wrong? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I Wrong? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DeathRaven
07-31-03, 02:20 PM I have also posted this in the Player area, but I also wanted to get other DM's opinon because I am new to this game and I don't want to act foolishly so please be bluntly honest.

I believe my DM is shafting me and my friends. Here's the deal My group is an Evil group of Level 6, although one charecter, a charecter played by another DM was last time I heard a Lv. 9 charecter. Now I know the DM running this group and the other DM have a relationship outside the RPG. Recently our group has split into two groups. The group she is in recently fought a battle with a weak party of Drow. I myself took on a Gladiator who could kill me with two slices of his blade, luckily I got a good Strike a weapon roll, and his weapon was destroyed saveing my charecter's life, the XP I got for this battle was 400, I got nothing else. A night's rest in which I received 8 HP for, I found my charecter face to face with a Huge Monstorus Scoripian, Now after checking the MM it's a challege rating of 6, and I am but a Lv. 6 Fighter alone. Perhaps the Scorpian was powered down because the beast was unable to get me, before I killed it. Then came the Scorpian's mother and you better believe I was hit. At this point in time I was down to my last Potion of Cure Moderate wounds, but the other two had finally arrived. Eventually we were able to gain full life do to the fact we never met any Encounters and we had little to do except ride. Now here's where it hits the fan. We came up upon a Fog Giant, now my friend who plays a Assasin Drow came up with a brillant plan to blind the Giant by centering his Darkness spell around the Giant's head, which would not blind us but would blind the much bigger Giant. My friend did not move at all, he was riding upon a horse (Not moving sitting!). The DM made a Ride check and my friend failed not only that but he fell on his head dealing Subdual Damage and the darkness spell was activated around him causeing his own spell to be turned against him createing what the DM thought was a comical expereince, it merely made me sick and frankly I find that it was disgustingly petty. Meanwhile the other group met up with a Fog giant of they're own which they destroyed relitively quick, after only doing EXACTLY 148 Damage. Our Giant we had just done 150+ damage, and then we continued to do more and more damage. Now at this point the other group comes to "help" even though they were two day's behind our group, the Other DM's charecter came up and with one slash of her blade (14 damage) the Giant was felled. My charecter was knocked down to 0, my Drow friend was dying, and the other member had about 2 hp left. Would you like to know the total damage we did to this giant? Over 300 points of damage! The amount of XP we received 600 xp. Keep in mind I do'nt know what the other group got for they're XP, as it's all done by PM, which is different to the other groups whom the DM posts the parties XP so all can see. Now another thing the Drow party they beat, had a great deal of Magic items, those they did'nt need they sold for a GREAT deal of coin. Now am I crazy or are these DM's shafting me and my friends?
Dave99
07-31-03, 02:37 PM Double posting is bad.

If your going to reply to this please to the the one in the Whats a player to do area.

Thanks.
Dash Branaghan
07-31-03, 03:04 PM Dave, first off, I have no issue with double posting, especially since DeathRaven is looking for player's and DMs opinions, and I rarely travel to the Player boards.

DeathRaven, from the sounds of thing, the DMs are playing favorites. I'm not there, so I don't know what the problems are, aside from an apparent lack of gamer maturity on their part. How old are these DMs and how long have they been gaming for? How long have they DMed for?

A battle with a fog giant that lasts two days is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but as players, you should have attempted to run when the battle was looking that bad.

As far as the drow assassin, unless you are playing 2ed, you have to touch the item you want to cast the darkness on, so unless he has taken the feat that allows a ray attack for a normally touch attack spell, it won't work. The DMs should know this. Second, if someone fell off a moving horse and hit their head on that hard thing we call the ground, I would not be giving them subdual damage (not for a head injury) unless they were wearing a helm. Either way, the player is entitled to a concentration check DC 15+ Spell Level + damage to see if the spell goes off. The spell either doesn't go off or it goes off as expected, but it certainly doesn't retarget at the whim of the DM.

The XP I can't say much on simply because we have no parallel to anyone beyond you and the mini group you had, and I'm notorious for not giving out the expected amount of encounter XP (usually half the actual total) to balance out the RP awards I give. So I have no comment about that.

Based on what you have told me, which is admittedly a one sided perspective, I would suggest packing up the individuals that you have that feel the same and finding a new group, a new DM, or taking on the mantle yourself and showing them what fair gaming can be like. Right now I'm picturing two DMs who are 17 and 15 and using the game to score points with each other at the expense of the other players. Scrap them and move on.
NestroEmichae
07-31-03, 03:47 PM Dave- Double-posting is not bad in this case. I go to both forums but am more willing to answer it here.

I must agree with Dash. Also, you should confront the two DMs about it. If you want revenge, I know of a particularly bad group that has yet to learn their lesson that might enjoy the challenge...
bleek
07-31-03, 04:17 PM I don't know what's going on in the DM's head, but it appears you are getting the royal shaft. He seems like he's trying to make the other DM's character seem like your savior;that you are unable to do anything without him. I don't often suggest this, but it may be best if you found another group with a more mature DM. Try to resolve this with the DM first, but, if he acts they way I imagine he will at being questioned, asking will probably make things worth. He seems as if all he wants to do is control everyhting, including your characters.
unclejoey
07-31-03, 07:45 PM Honestly, DeathRaven, I had trouble figuring out what was going on in your post. It looks like your DM is giving you the shaft, as everyone else has pointed out. It's also possible that your DM is just inexperienced.

The XP awards you are getting seem low, and that could be because he just doesn't know how much you should get.

Your solo-fight against the CR 6 scorpion (and then it's mother) could be a result of your DM not understanding the encounter level guidelines. When the DM of the game I play in started out, he didn't understand these rules, either (we were a 2nd level party and were attacked by a gang of ogres at night while we were camping; everybody but the CN ranger died, simply because he was the only one who could get away; I think my DM assumed that since ogres are CR 2, and we were 2nd level, we could handle a gang of them as big as our party; this was a while ago and he's doing much, much better, now...).

The assassin's spell failure seems like another example of rules-ignorance. Check the mounted combat section of the PHB; you can cast normally even if you move up to the mounts normal move--and nowhere does it mention a ride check. There should have been no chance of spell failure from the situation you describe.

Perhaps your DM was wanting the two groups to meet up during the battle, and that's why the battle lasted until the other DMs character could show up to finish the giant off. Actually, even though I'm trying to see the situation in a positive light, that doesn't make sense. The groups could meet up after the fight, and it seems obvious that your group didn't need the help if you dealt 300+ damage to a critter that "should" have had only half that hp.

If your DM is a newbie, he will probably get better with time. Have a little patience and don't be afraid to tell him your concerns. The important thing is communication; tell him what you think and hopefully he'll listen.

Then again, it really does sound like the guy is on a power trip. There may be no hope. If that's the case, maybe you should pick up a copy of the DMG and Monster Manual and start your own game.
KITKATmeeoow
08-01-03, 07:52 AM On the flip side, the other dm might be a little inexperienced too if they are handing over magic items and experience at that quick of a rate.

The truth is that it sounds like you are stuck in a bad situation. There are two dms controlling the two groups that treat the game entirely different. Your sounds like the type that like to level up slowly and not hand over too much power until they feel you are high enough to deserve it. The other sounds like the type that would allow someone getting a +5 weapon at 8th level at a really low level as long as they can afford it from the major amounts of money they pile on them all.

The bad news is it sounds like your entire group is being shafted, but the good news is that it might not be out of some evil manipulative reason like some of the others mentioned above. In reality, if your two groups are going to make a habit of joining up with one another at times, than the two dms really need to come to terms with a more equal way of leveling up and handing out treasure. Sadly enough, this one reminds me of another thread I read where a dm let another player take over for a short campaign and the player turned them into gods and added other very beneficial things in the world the normal dm left out on purpose. When the other dm got control back, he ha to try to figure out what to do with his world and fix the multiple problems the other created. In both of these cases, two dms that are nothing alike in regards to how they run the world are in control and unfortunately like it is in most cases that include two completely differing dm styles, it is the innocent players that takes the beating as a result.
Dave99
08-01-03, 08:22 AM Double posting is bad, in that its a waste of bandwith and It makes it that much harder to follow the conversation.
bleek
08-01-03, 08:35 AM Dave99, you need to seriously stifle a bit when it comes to double posting. Sometimes a post needs to be seen by more than one group of people, and thus, double posting is good. I reall you condemning double posting in another thread about monks(which I can no longer find) when it was necessary to get both players and DM's viewpoint. It doesn't hog all that much bandwidth. If you want to find a waste of bandwidth, take away some of the more useless posts (3.5 gripes and complaints comes to mind(even though I post there)). Let this guy try and get more opinions. I know if it wasn;t here, I would probbaly never see it.
Dave99
08-01-03, 08:49 AM Stifle? Anyway.

Its is a waste, sighting other more wasteful topics doesn't change that fact.

Also there is the confusion factor. See the conversation is over on the original post, the poster probably isn't even checking this one as he has decided to leave the the game in question, leaving this post to drag on, which as stated is a waste.
Dash Branaghan
08-01-03, 11:11 AM Dave99, if it was a waste, the WizOs will delete it. Nuff said.
Sid_Patterson
08-01-03, 10:13 PM I know, I'll post a few times and waste some space while I complain about wasting space.

Death Raven, sounds like you ought to have a heart to heart with the GM(s). Nothing much will be accomplished until you do. This is a team game and it gets really messy and unfortunate when we try to play AGAINST each other.

Much luck. Don't let the buggers keep you down!!! Oh yeah, and quit double posting...;)
Dark_Paul
08-11-03, 01:02 AM I suggest seeing how good the DM is...by being pure evil...take your little party aside from dnd and say your going to kill the other party. Laugh malicously at this and as your friends question your sanity, knock them out to prevent them from stopping you. then when dnd comes explain they were all hit by cars on the same day and had to go the hopspital...then try to kill the other party who seems to be uber-party...make sure its a trap involving lots of magic, tons of dcs, and most importantly you at the end holding a flaming sword which you ripped from a dead guards body.....then if the other party survives the magic and traps, finish them off quickly....if the dm is good he'll know what to do if hes bad you'll kill them all! MU HAHAHA AHA HA HA
NestroEmichae
08-11-03, 01:26 AM Dave- He wants the opinions of both DMs and players. Do you think he will get a good mixture of both by posting this on just one forum? Of course not. Thus, logic wins again. And if you want a waste of bandwidth, look at all of your posts about double posting and how much bandwidth they have wasted when not talking about it could have saved that bandwidth. If this was bad by being double-posted, it would have been deleted by now. If you want to save bandwidth, don't post. You'd be surprised at how much bandwidth that would save. If you want to complain some more, perhaps you should talk to Bob. The link at the bottom of my sig will take you to him.

DeathRaven- I suggest you dump that DM and move on. Perhaps some online gaming on here? If you are interested, I can give you a few links to online gaming forums.
Unholydragoon
08-11-03, 01:39 AM heya Nestro, I think he kinda qualifies as #3 in the sig. ;)

Dave99, I'd like to point out that of everyone's post in this thread, yer posts are the most likely to get a warning. After all, they are off-topic and considered trolling in the CoC.
NestroEmichae
08-11-03, 01:51 AM I must agree, UnholyDragoon. I am more lenient when it comes to just one topic, though my patience has evaporated at this point.

On topic:

If you want to stay with that DM, I have a list of ways to approach him on it that shouldn't anger him. They won't annoy me, so they are safe around moderate DMs. He just may need reminding of his official duties.
Dungeon Cat
08-11-03, 02:26 AM Did I gather correctly that this is an online game? (I'm gleaning this information from the fact that you said the XP was given out in a PM). If so, I have to say that you can probably find more on-line gaming venues/DMs elsewhere...and hopefully one that you are comfortable with. It's hard to know what to do, especially if you don't have at least a modicum of trust with your DM. Even IF (note the IF) he/she was playing by all the rules and treating both parties fairly, if you felt he was slighting you, it's going to cause friction.

If you don't feel comfortable speaking to the DM involved, it's okay to bow out and seek your enjoyment elsewhere. D&D is a HOBBY it should be FUN, and as soon as the fun is sucked out of the game, it's time to reconsider (perhaps even remember) why you're doing it in the first place!

[Edit: Eye kan speull.]

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeathRaven 07-31-03, 02:20 PM	I have also posted this in the Player area, but I also wanted to get other DM's opinon because I am new to this game and I don't want to act foolishly so please be bluntly honest. I believe my DM is shafting me and my friends. Here's the deal My group is an Evil group of Level 6, although one charecter, a charecter played by another DM was last time I heard a Lv. 9 charecter. Now I know the DM running this group and the other DM have a relationship outside the RPG. Recently our group has split into two groups. The group she is in recently fought a battle with a weak party of Drow. I myself took on a Gladiator who could kill me with two slices of his blade, luckily I got a good Strike a weapon roll, and his weapon was destroyed saveing my charecter's life, the XP I got for this battle was 400, I got nothing else. A night's rest in which I received 8 HP for, I found my charecter face to face with a Huge Monstorus Scoripian, Now after checking the MM it's a challege rating of 6, and I am but a Lv. 6 Fighter alone. Perhaps the Scorpian was powered down because the beast was unable to get me, before I killed it. Then came the Scorpian's mother and you better believe I was hit. At this point in time I was down to my last Potion of Cure Moderate wounds, but the other two had finally arrived. Eventually we were able to gain full life do to the fact we never met any Encounters and we had little to do except ride. Now here's where it hits the fan. We came up upon a Fog Giant, now my friend who plays a Assasin Drow came up with a brillant plan to blind the Giant by centering his Darkness spell around the Giant's head, which would not blind us but would blind the much bigger Giant. My friend did not move at all, he was riding upon a horse (Not moving sitting!). The DM made a Ride check and my friend failed not only that but he fell on his head dealing Subdual Damage and the darkness spell was activated around him causeing his own spell to be turned against him createing what the DM thought was a comical expereince, it merely made me sick and frankly I find that it was disgustingly petty. Meanwhile the other group met up with a Fog giant of they're own which they destroyed relitively quick, after only doing EXACTLY 148 Damage. Our Giant we had just done 150+ damage, and then we continued to do more and more damage. Now at this point the other group comes to "help" even though they were two day's behind our group, the Other DM's charecter came up and with one slash of her blade (14 damage) the Giant was felled. My charecter was knocked down to 0, my Drow friend was dying, and the other member had about 2 hp left. Would you like to know the total damage we did to this giant? Over 300 points of damage! The amount of XP we received 600 xp. Keep in mind I do'nt know what the other group got for they're XP, as it's all done by PM, which is different to the other groups whom the DM posts the parties XP so all can see. Now another thing the Drow party they beat, had a great deal of Magic items, those they did'nt need they sold for a GREAT deal of coin. Now am I crazy or are these DM's shafting me and my friends?
Dave99 07-31-03, 02:37 PM	Double posting is bad. If your going to reply to this please to the the one in the Whats a player to do area. Thanks.
Dash Branaghan 07-31-03, 03:04 PM	Dave, first off, I have no issue with double posting, especially since DeathRaven is looking for player's and DMs opinions, and I rarely travel to the Player boards. DeathRaven, from the sounds of thing, the DMs are playing favorites. I'm not there, so I don't know what the problems are, aside from an apparent lack of gamer maturity on their part. How old are these DMs and how long have they been gaming for? How long have they DMed for? A battle with a fog giant that lasts two days is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but as players, you should have attempted to run when the battle was looking that bad. As far as the drow assassin, unless you are playing 2ed, you have to touch the item you want to cast the darkness on, so unless he has taken the feat that allows a ray attack for a normally touch attack spell, it won't work. The DMs should know this. Second, if someone fell off a moving horse and hit their head on that hard thing we call the ground, I would not be giving them subdual damage (not for a head injury) unless they were wearing a helm. Either way, the player is entitled to a concentration check DC 15+ Spell Level + damage to see if the spell goes off. The spell either doesn't go off or it goes off as expected, but it certainly doesn't retarget at the whim of the DM. The XP I can't say much on simply because we have no parallel to anyone beyond you and the mini group you had, and I'm notorious for not giving out the expected amount of encounter XP (usually half the actual total) to balance out the RP awards I give. So I have no comment about that. Based on what you have told me, which is admittedly a one sided perspective, I would suggest packing up the individuals that you have that feel the same and finding a new group, a new DM, or taking on the mantle yourself and showing them what fair gaming can be like. Right now I'm picturing two DMs who are 17 and 15 and using the game to score points with each other at the expense of the other players. Scrap them and move on.
NestroEmichae 07-31-03, 03:47 PM	Dave- Double-posting is not bad in this case. I go to both forums but am more willing to answer it here. I must agree with Dash. Also, you should confront the two DMs about it. If you want revenge, I know of a particularly bad group that has yet to learn their lesson that might enjoy the challenge...
bleek 07-31-03, 04:17 PM	I don't know what's going on in the DM's head, but it appears you are getting the royal shaft. He seems like he's trying to make the other DM's character seem like your savior;that you are unable to do anything without him. I don't often suggest this, but it may be best if you found another group with a more mature DM. Try to resolve this with the DM first, but, if he acts they way I imagine he will at being questioned, asking will probably make things worth. He seems as if all he wants to do is control everyhting, including your characters.
unclejoey 07-31-03, 07:45 PM	Honestly, DeathRaven, I had trouble figuring out what was going on in your post. It looks like your DM is giving you the shaft, as everyone else has pointed out. It's also possible that your DM is just inexperienced. The XP awards you are getting seem low, and that could be because he just doesn't know how much you should get. Your solo-fight against the CR 6 scorpion (and then it's mother) could be a result of your DM not understanding the encounter level guidelines. When the DM of the game I play in started out, he didn't understand these rules, either (we were a 2nd level party and were attacked by a gang of ogres at night while we were camping; everybody but the CN ranger died, simply because he was the only one who could get away; I think my DM assumed that since ogres are CR 2, and we were 2nd level, we could handle a gang of them as big as our party; this was a while ago and he's doing much, much better, now...). The assassin's spell failure seems like another example of rules-ignorance. Check the mounted combat section of the PHB; you can cast normally even if you move up to the mounts normal move--and nowhere does it mention a ride check. There should have been no chance of spell failure from the situation you describe. Perhaps your DM was wanting the two groups to meet up during the battle, and that's why the battle lasted until the other DMs character could show up to finish the giant off. Actually, even though I'm trying to see the situation in a positive light, that doesn't make sense. The groups could meet up after the fight, and it seems obvious that your group didn't need the help if you dealt 300+ damage to a critter that "should" have had only half that hp. If your DM is a newbie, he will probably get better with time. Have a little patience and don't be afraid to tell him your concerns. The important thing is communication; tell him what you think and hopefully he'll listen. Then again, it really does sound like the guy is on a power trip. There may be no hope. If that's the case, maybe you should pick up a copy of the DMG and Monster Manual and start your own game.
KITKATmeeoow 08-01-03, 07:52 AM	On the flip side, the other dm might be a little inexperienced too if they are handing over magic items and experience at that quick of a rate. The truth is that it sounds like you are stuck in a bad situation. There are two dms controlling the two groups that treat the game entirely different. Your sounds like the type that like to level up slowly and not hand over too much power until they feel you are high enough to deserve it. The other sounds like the type that would allow someone getting a +5 weapon at 8th level at a really low level as long as they can afford it from the major amounts of money they pile on them all. The bad news is it sounds like your entire group is being shafted, but the good news is that it might not be out of some evil manipulative reason like some of the others mentioned above. In reality, if your two groups are going to make a habit of joining up with one another at times, than the two dms really need to come to terms with a more equal way of leveling up and handing out treasure. Sadly enough, this one reminds me of another thread I read where a dm let another player take over for a short campaign and the player turned them into gods and added other very beneficial things in the world the normal dm left out on purpose. When the other dm got control back, he ha to try to figure out what to do with his world and fix the multiple problems the other created. In both of these cases, two dms that are nothing alike in regards to how they run the world are in control and unfortunately like it is in most cases that include two completely differing dm styles, it is the innocent players that takes the beating as a result.
Dave99 08-01-03, 08:22 AM	Double posting is bad, in that its a waste of bandwith and It makes it that much harder to follow the conversation.
bleek 08-01-03, 08:35 AM	Dave99, you need to seriously stifle a bit when it comes to double posting. Sometimes a post needs to be seen by more than one group of people, and thus, double posting is good. I reall you condemning double posting in another thread about monks(which I can no longer find) when it was necessary to get both players and DM's viewpoint. It doesn't hog all that much bandwidth. If you want to find a waste of bandwidth, take away some of the more useless posts (3.5 gripes and complaints comes to mind(even though I post there)). Let this guy try and get more opinions. I know if it wasn;t here, I would probbaly never see it.
Dave99 08-01-03, 08:49 AM	Stifle? Anyway. Its is a waste, sighting other more wasteful topics doesn't change that fact. Also there is the confusion factor. See the conversation is over on the original post, the poster probably isn't even checking this one as he has decided to leave the the game in question, leaving this post to drag on, which as stated is a waste.
Dash Branaghan 08-01-03, 11:11 AM	Dave99, if it was a waste, the WizOs will delete it. Nuff said.
Sid_Patterson 08-01-03, 10:13 PM	I know, I'll post a few times and waste some space while I complain about wasting space. Death Raven, sounds like you ought to have a heart to heart with the GM(s). Nothing much will be accomplished until you do. This is a team game and it gets really messy and unfortunate when we try to play AGAINST each other. Much luck. Don't let the buggers keep you down!!! Oh yeah, and quit double posting...;)
Dark_Paul 08-11-03, 01:02 AM	I suggest seeing how good the DM is...by being pure evil...take your little party aside from dnd and say your going to kill the other party. Laugh malicously at this and as your friends question your sanity, knock them out to prevent them from stopping you. then when dnd comes explain they were all hit by cars on the same day and had to go the hopspital...then try to kill the other party who seems to be uber-party...make sure its a trap involving lots of magic, tons of dcs, and most importantly you at the end holding a flaming sword which you ripped from a dead guards body.....then if the other party survives the magic and traps, finish them off quickly....if the dm is good he'll know what to do if hes bad you'll kill them all! MU HAHAHA AHA HA HA
NestroEmichae 08-11-03, 01:26 AM	Dave- He wants the opinions of both DMs and players. Do you think he will get a good mixture of both by posting this on just one forum? Of course not. Thus, logic wins again. And if you want a waste of bandwidth, look at all of your posts about double posting and how much bandwidth they have wasted when not talking about it could have saved that bandwidth. If this was bad by being double-posted, it would have been deleted by now. If you want to save bandwidth, don't post. You'd be surprised at how much bandwidth that would save. If you want to complain some more, perhaps you should talk to Bob. The link at the bottom of my sig will take you to him. DeathRaven- I suggest you dump that DM and move on. Perhaps some online gaming on here? If you are interested, I can give you a few links to online gaming forums.
Unholydragoon 08-11-03, 01:39 AM	heya Nestro, I think he kinda qualifies as #3 in the sig. ;) Dave99, I'd like to point out that of everyone's post in this thread, yer posts are the most likely to get a warning. After all, they are off-topic and considered trolling in the CoC.
NestroEmichae 08-11-03, 01:51 AM	I must agree, UnholyDragoon. I am more lenient when it comes to just one topic, though my patience has evaporated at this point. On topic: If you want to stay with that DM, I have a list of ways to approach him on it that shouldn't anger him. They won't annoy me, so they are safe around moderate DMs. He just may need reminding of his official duties.
Dungeon Cat 08-11-03, 02:26 AM	Did I gather correctly that this is an online game? (I'm gleaning this information from the fact that you said the XP was given out in a PM). If so, I have to say that you can probably find more on-line gaming venues/DMs elsewhere...and hopefully one that you are comfortable with. It's hard to know what to do, especially if you don't have at least a modicum of trust with your DM. Even IF (note the IF) he/she was playing by all the rules and treating both parties fairly, if you felt he was slighting you, it's going to cause friction. If you don't feel comfortable speaking to the DM involved, it's okay to bow out and seek your enjoyment elsewhere. D&D is a HOBBY it should be FUN, and as soon as the fun is sucked out of the game, it's time to reconsider (perhaps even remember) why you're doing it in the first place! [Edit: Eye kan speull.]