Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oompa 02-25-07, 02:01 AM	Last night, our session ended with a big discussion, one player in particular was not happy because he didn't get any xp.. The situation is as followed: The party started to rest for the night, the paladin, sorcerer and the wizard kept themselves to an small cluster of tree's, the druid went 100 feet further to the forest side. The first watch an creature appeared and started attacking.. The Pally, sorc and wiz started fighting, they took a few heavy hits.. At one point, the wiz created a really big noise and the druid waked up.. The druid came closer and hide, he saw the pally on his mount and the wiz standing next to it, 40 feet away was a torch lying on the ground with a dead mule by the side.. The sorc was no where (invis) to be seen and 60 feet away the monster standed.. The druid then decided to go back to the forest and try to get some sleep.. He didn't search contact with the partymembers because he thought they where ok, the pally, sorc and wiz went back fighting ( they stood there to discuss tactics) and defeated the monster.. The wholse session was only this fight (they fight rather slow) and i only gave the pally, sorc and wiz xp, for defeating the monster.. I didnt gave any RP bonus cause there wasnt much RP going on.. But the character that plays the druid wanted xp, cause he acted from his character to not ask what the party was doing, what is happening etc. etc.. I explained to him the rest only got xp for killing the creature, no roleplay, and told him if he did something important or smart he could get xp.. but he only went to look, and went back.. So now the players all upset, saying while i dont have to roleplay anymore, just make sure i get into a fight.. I told him he can get xp if he roleplayed good.. but he said that doesnt matter, you only have to fight.. Now i feel a kind of sad by this.. Did he have right to XP? Am i wrong..? I know the dm is always right, but not with a bad feeling..?
fatal error 02-25-07, 02:20 AM	This is precisely why I always give the same EXP to everyone. If I didn't always give the same EXP to everyone, I would probably not give EXP to the Druid. However, because situations like this can become much less clear-cut, I prefer to avoid them altogether by giving everyone the same amount of EXP. So, my advice is this: If you haven't set a precedent one way or the other in previous games, and want to avoid situations like this in the future, give the Druid full EXP. Otherwise, stand by your decision, he didn't do anything to "deserve" it after all.
Krusk 02-25-07, 02:20 AM	Its usually best to give xp to the entire party even if one of the members of the party is unable to participate in an encounter. Unfortunatly he was able to participate, but opted not to. Id have given the XP to him IF it actually was within his character to simply walk away from the party when they need help. If he simply decided to start roleplaying that way for this one encounter because he wasnt at full hp, i would give no XP. Id also suggest to the party they ditch this dead weight who dosnt fight while they need help, and ask him to reroll a new concept. If the entire group thinks he deserves some xp, give him half the rest of the party in xp. as a compramise.
TheChilliGod 02-25-07, 02:36 AM	But the player that plays the druid wanted xp, because he acted in-character to not ask what the party was doing, what is happening etc. etc.. I explained to him the rest only got xp for killing the creature, no roleplay, and told him if he did something important or smart he could get xp. But he only went to look, and went back. So now the player's all upset, saying while I dont have to roleplay anymore, just make sure I get into a fight. I told him he can get xp if he roleplayed good. but he said that doesnt matter, you only have to fight. You used the correct argument here, however, it was probably in the wrong context. Put down the emphasis on "Good" roleplaying, next time. This druid woke up, saw the party fight, and without a care in the world went back to sleep. This is not the kind of roleplaying that earns a PC xp; this is the kind of roleplaying that makes the rest of the group resent the player as a leech, and it should not really be encouraged. The key to avoiding this kind of bad roleplaying, is participation. The druid did not participate in the encounter, and hence, he did not gain experience. If the druid participates in any other encounters (as he pointed out), he does get experience. If the druid participates in a roleplaying encounter, he also gets xp, depending on how you prefer to hand it out. I've had players like this before, that participate little and expect full rewards, and this is oftentimes the best way to curb that behavior and in turn cut any problems about 'leeches' before they blossom. Edit: Exceptions made if it is, for some unfathomable reason, in-character for the druid to walk away from a potentially dangerous situation involving the druid's on traveling companions. But still, I don't know why such a PC would even bother with traveling with a party, in that case.
The White Sorcerer 02-25-07, 02:43 AM	Give the druid roleplaying xp. The amount should be about 1 point/level.
Ardenyl_Syn7 02-25-07, 03:01 AM	A character who doesn't act when the rest of his companions are beset by a hostile creature is a character who probably doesn't need to be around much longer. I had a problem in a previous campaign of mine with a true neutral character who hung around taverns all day during certain adventures (while the party went out and completed them) saying afterwords that he should receive full XP because his decision was "in his character to not act in this case because he felt like doing something else more personally fulfilling, as he is true neutral." This kind of character mindset is extremely irritating as it rewards him for, bottom-line, doing nothing. The characters ended up tossing him off a rather large cliff. I say give him no XP; he had a chance to do something and chose not to. Remind him that next time something like this comes up, to get off his butt and do something! :D
Oompa 02-25-07, 04:16 AM	Well we always played that if you fought a battle, or dealt with it, or just help youre partymembers that you would get xp for tha fight, but he didn't fight at all.. so he didnt get xp for the fight, but who did fought, got xp.. Look if he went to ask if the party needed help, or he healt someone then he would have gotten xp.. If he walked around the monster to make sure no one added or something like that he would have gotten xp.. But he did nothing.. He said it was roleplaying his character, but hell, the paladin did evenly cause he wanted to get rid of the evil monster, he took great risks in achieving it, just as the sorcerer and wizard.. so i said that if i had to gave him a 100 xp for RP, the rest should get that to.. cause they RPéd to.. He trips about the fact he wont get xp cause he didnt chose to fight.. but he knows its a rule we all accepted 5 years ago.. only it isnt used as much cause normally everyone fights :)
Tropico 02-25-07, 09:16 AM	Umm, did everyone here forget about alignment? I know its usually a touchy subject but this is like the perfect tailor-made situation why alignment exists. Is the character neutral, evil, chaotic? If so, give him some xp for following his alignment. LESS than the party got for the fight. Like half. Or, if he's actually GOOD or LAWFUL then give him a small XP penalty for breaking alignment. The key here is to show that you have a reason for doing what you did, that youre NOT just sitting in your little chair looking at the ceiling rubbing your little chin going hmmmmm into the air and just deciding out of the blue 'OK you get no XP', which is what it looks like to your player, and the reason why he's throwing a hissy-fit. If you show that you have a valid, coherent reason for your ruling instead of just being on a power trip, he and the group are much more likely to back your decision up. PS, btw, this is why many GM's (who know what they're doing) choose to restrict the party to good or lawful alignments before the characters are even rolled. Or at least to have some understanding that all party members will try to help and communicate with one another at all times. To stave off BS like this.
johnhansen 02-25-07, 01:09 PM	It is important to remember that a lot of XP is not meant to be given for just over coming something. In 2nd XP for killing and orc was low, so it only was worth something to a low level character not to a 15th level character trying to get to 16th, and any DM worth a grain of salt would not have even bothered giving a 15th level character XP for killing a single orc. Under the D20 system we have challenge ratings so that a group of four mid level adventures get a lot of XP for over coming a creature with a high challenge rating and little XP for over coming a creature with a very low challenge rating. None of the above be it true or opinion deals with the slippery issue of role playing XP. But if XP for combat is judged on a sliding scale of challenge ratings then perhaps so should role playing XP. What challenge is it for a character to go to sleep, zero I would say, but for a character to have gone out during the fight found the monsters lair found it had young, killed another beast that was not low in supply and fed the young so they would not all die. That might be worth more XP than being one of four to kill a monster, but either way the other party members are likely to ditch the druid.
Eightbitmage 02-25-07, 01:40 PM	First give the guy xp. It will stop his whining and make the next bit go over better. Tell him to find a new character concept. If he is new this might be hard, but he is not playing someone who will mesh with the party. Simply by virtue of being your friend and wanting to be involved in the game he should come up with something better than this.
Oompa 02-25-07, 02:20 PM	I give RP xp to things like ingame discussions, thinkin ways to overcome problems, communication and stuff like that.. and in my opinion he didnt do anything to really RP, he acted his alignment, but the other 3 party members did also that. But none of the 4 really did some real roleplay things, so i gave no rp bonus to anyone... I know its not fun to get no xp, but it is a good lesson for him that he could have informed with the others, or checked around.. Earning xp.. I told him that.. Ill look how the party will react to this in the next session and how things will go down..
danielinthewolvesden 02-25-07, 02:28 PM	First give the guy xp. It will stop his whining and make the next bit go over better. Tell him to find a new character concept. If he is new this might be hard, but he is not playing someone who will mesh with the party. Simply by virtue of being your friend and wanting to be involved in the game he should come up with something better than this. I agree 100% with the second part.
Krusk 02-25-07, 02:45 PM	Umm, did everyone here forget about alignment? I know its usually a touchy subject but this is like the perfect tailor-made situation why alignment exists. Is the character neutral, evil, chaotic? If so, give him some xp for following his alignment. LESS than the party got for the fight. Like half. Or, if he's actually GOOD or LAWFUL then give him a small XP penalty for breaking alignment. if he is EVIL give him an xp penalty for missing out on a chance to inflict harm on someone, or passing up a chance to loot the enemy. If he is CHAOTIC give him an xp penalty for not runnign headlong into a fight for no reason, other than the sheer fun of combat. This really isnt a situation where alignment matters. He went ignored a chance to help the party, because he decided he didnt feel like it. No xp. If over period of time he keeps this up as an established personality i guess start giving some xp for roleplay. If he does it again, the party should ditch the dead weight.
CroBob 02-25-07, 02:47 PM	Did the druid have any spells left? How many HPs did he have at this point? How many HPs did his animal companion have? If was practically out of resources, then it makes complete sense for him to avoid even being noticed by the monster. However, why, then would he wander of into the woods further such that a starving animal or monster or what have you might try to get him while his friends were a hundred feet away? Even if he was out of spells, if he had a good chunk of hit-points left, he could still help in the fight, if only being there to roll a heal check if needed, or to help flank the monster. His animal companion could help. What was his reason for not helping?
Keiichi_m 02-25-07, 02:50 PM	You know I once had a character who wound up sleeping in a tree for 3 hours of combat cause my character was never alerted to combat, he had no clue anything was going on. and after this enormous battle the DM gave me no XP, cause even though it wasn't my fault that I wasn't there, and they only way I could have gotten involved was meta-gaming, the fact still stands that I didn't participate. Tell him to either A) Suck it up and take it like a man B) write a new character that will choose to help his friends and compainions who have probablly saved his life a half dozen times.
revnk 02-25-07, 02:50 PM	You need to talk to the player and possibly the group about how you handle XP awards. Generally speaking, a PC who does not participate in an encounter does not receive experience for it. I was under the impression that the only typical exception recognized by most groups is the situation in which the player was completely unavailable due to work, family, school, etc., in which case the rationale for giving his character XP is to keep him on par with the party under the assumption that his character was doing adventurous things when no one was looking. ("And what did you do on your summer vacation, Bob The Paladin?") A player who is present and simply has his character "go back to sleep" is, as someone has already written, a leech. No, he's not entitled to XP. And if that's his "character concept," I agree that he needs to come up with a new one. It's a social game. If he wants to do is own thing, Neverwinter Nights is now under $20 at Amazon. (Although, I should add, if he spends hours clicking on the "sleep" button, he won't be getting any XP for it in that game, either. Just so he's not disappointed.) Rewarding the player for misbehavior is not advised; you'll only encourage him. In summary: 1) Make sure your group understands how you award XP. 2) Talk to your player about what it is he's doing and whether it's going to fit in with the group's enjoyment--his, the other players', and yours. If those fail, you might look for a tactful way to evict him from the gaming group. Good luck.
trapspringer 02-25-07, 02:58 PM	Explain to him the "lone wolf" archetype doesn't have a place in a game that revolves around a group of people. Tell him if he wants to get experience, he needs to play D&D.
Sim_antix 02-25-07, 05:09 PM	First I will preface this with a discalaimer about how I hate xp for "killing" that is the worst system ever and simply encourages powergaming killbot characters. Now that that is out of the way I will say that since the druid choose not to even continue to observe the fight in case his companions did need help that you were justified in awarding the others xp and not him.
bartleby42 02-25-07, 05:41 PM	Maybe I'm misunderstanding due to bad grammar, but here is what I understand as to occuring Party goes to sleep, not all are in the same location. Main group of the party is engaged. Druid hears noise and investigates. Druid sees party and no signs of combat. Druid returns to bed. If that is the case it would be akin to penalizing a cop for walking into a bank and not knowing that customer was really a robber. With all the screams about how "horrible" metagaming is on these boards I'm suprised the Druid didn't get more support for not metagaming. If the Druid saw the nasty, or it was clear that the PCs were still engaged then it might be a different issue.
Krusk 02-25-07, 07:33 PM	i think the steps were. party sleeps together, druid sleeps a bit off main group is attacked druid hears combat, investigates druid sees party fighting druid goes back to bed.
Kukamunga 02-25-07, 08:20 PM	Regardess to what happens.. acting in character or not.. if he didnt fight the monsters he dosnt get experiance for it If the cop walks into a bank thats being robed and dosnt realize it.. then he walks out oblivious.. he dosnt get to tell his grandchildren that he stoped a bank robery.. no matter how much he wants to, he just didnt experiance it
Drausktanchache 02-25-07, 08:38 PM	I agree with you, if the druid didn't do anything, he doesn't get exp. Remember, experience comes from actually doing something, if you want, ask him how could he "grow in his abilities as a druid whale sleeping?" That is what exp is after all, growing in your abilities, if you don't do anything you don't get exp bottom line.
bartleby42 02-25-07, 11:58 PM	The point isn't did the Druid do something worthy of getting XP it is "did the druid do something so bad that he doesn't get XP?" How would you feel if you were playing a fast talking bard and your lagging behind the party because he is giveing his sister medicine, you come upon the group and they just dispatched a gaurd and 2 more run in and you succesfully bluff to the gaurds that you didn't kill them and you came upon the bodies. At the end of the session your DM goes "Everyone but you gets XP, because you didn't fight anything." Sure you roleplayed your charecter correctly, but you didn't fight. Now that is clearly wrong from the DM's side of things, but what if the bard didn't catch up until the end of the session and was unable to do anything this session, is it still the bards fault? Do you penalize a PC for playing thier charecter? What if it was clear the PCs were going to be in combat, would you make the bard lose out on XP for making a hard choice in the way his charecter would? Just because the Druid wasn't in the combat doesn't mean you should penalize them, if the Druid went off on his own and killed several monsters without the party most wouldn't support a special reward for him, why do you support a speical penalty?
Krusk 02-26-07, 12:07 AM	In your situation with the bard, the bard should gain the xp because he attempted to participate, and actually roleplayed something. in the case of the druid, he avoided contributing to the encounter and then went to sleep. I would hope no one travels with a guy who is willing to let you die just for another 5 min of sleep.
johnhansen 02-26-07, 12:21 AM	if the Druid went off on his own and killed several monsters without the party most wouldn't support a special reward for him I would and under RAW he would get alot of XP.
unfortunate_crow 02-26-07, 01:03 AM	The way I understand it, the Druid awoke from the noise, but when he went to investigate, the rest of the group was just standing there. Now the player is going to say that since his character didn't see any combat going on, he thought everything was ok. However: The Druid didn't wonder why the rest of the group was awake in the middle of the night? The Paladin was on his mount for god's sake.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-26-07, 01:08 AM	The Druid didn't wonder why the rest of the group was awake in the middle of the night? The Paladin was on his mount for god's sake. When you're exhausted you tend not to care about things like that.
Archangel_Tyrael 02-26-07, 01:18 AM	The RAW for gaining xp is (without getting myself sued): 1. Determine each character's ECL. 2. For each monster defeated, determine that monster's CR. 3. Use table "BLAH BLAH BLAH" to cross-reference one character's level with the CR for each defeated monster to find the base XP award. 4. Divide the base XP award by the number of characters in the party (this is where you might stop and not keep reading on). This is the amount of XP that one character receives for helping defeat that monster. 5. Add up all the XP awards for all the monsters the characters helped defeat. 6. Repeat the process for each character. So you see, if you don't "help defeat that monster" you aren't counted as part of the party, and you get no XP.
unfortunate_crow 02-26-07, 01:20 AM	When you're exhausted you tend not to care about things like that. Even you have to admit that is pretty thin logic. If I awoke because of some noise in the night when I would expect everybody to be asleep, and my whole family was awake just standing around, I would certainly be a little curious. Hell, the guy got up in the first place, he must have been curious.
johnkretzer 02-26-07, 01:26 AM	1st: no he shouldn't get exp. 2nd: If I am reading this right he woke up looked saw no combat and went back to sleep(sure it might be nice to asked what happen but maybe he was RPing being tired and figured he'll ask in the morning) Then the party went out and killed the monster after driving it off...who left who behind? Sorry I can't attack the druid's actions but he shouldn't get exp....hell he is a druid anyway he can be behind the curve a little bit.
Oompa 02-26-07, 02:52 AM	Ill give some clearance... - The druid slept apart cause he wanted to be closer to the forest ( was safer he said) - The rest didnt want that and stayed where they where - The fight began - The druid wakes up a few rounds later - The druid takes on his wildshape form ( cheetah ) - Comes to the rest and looks and see's: A monster A torch on the ground next to a dead mule A wiz and a pally (on his mount) and no clue of the sorc - He waits 1 round, doesnt see any combat, thinks the party is alright - He walks back to his place I would like to thank all for the opinions, i dont feel bad now for not giving him xp, everyone in the party knows the rules.. but ill clearify them for them on the next session :)
Vaelan 02-26-07, 07:31 AM	So you see, if you don't "help defeat that monster" you aren't counted as part of the party, and you get no XP. Implementing such a concept consistently among the vast variety of challenges one could present (take a look at traps and diplomatic challenges, for a few simple examples) is needlessly complicated and doesn't actually serve any real purpose. Just give everyone an equal amount of XP and let the party deal with any leeches. It takes a stupid, petty little problem that would require a ridiculous amount of effort to correct in a reasonable manner out of the DM's hands and ultimately, the players cannot complain because they will have no one to blame but themselves if they fail to resolve the issue.
revnk 02-26-07, 12:42 PM	Implementing such a concept consistently among the vast variety of challenges one could present (take a look at traps and diplomatic challenges, for a few simple examples) is needlessly complicated and doesn't actually serve any real purpose. Just give everyone an equal amount of XP and let the party deal with any leeches. It takes a stupid, petty little problem that would require a ridiculous amount of effort to correct in a reasonable manner out of the DM's hands and ultimately, the players cannot complain because they will have no one to blame but themselves if they fail to resolve the issue. 1) Following the RAW for XP awards, people who don't participate in defeating an encounter don't get XP. There may be rationales for awarding XP differently or for giving XP bonuses, but Archangel_Tyrael's point was simply about what the rules say in the DMG. (By the way, Archangel_Tyrael, your post consisted of a small excerpt for commentary purposes, and should be covered by Fair Use.) 2) Rewarding the player combat XP for an encounter he didn't participate in rewards the player for misbehavior while effectively punishing the players who did participate (their work is treated as equivalent of another's non-work). The message that this sends is that players should feel free to not cooperate with the team since they'll get paid the same either way. If I were one of the other players, I'd be angry--at the DM as much as the other player. I wouldn't want to game with either one of them under those circumstances. 3) Since the DM is, basically, the "host" of the game, it is ultimately his responsibility to maximize everyone's having a good time. That doesn't mean that a DM has to give everyone what they want, or that it's always the DM's fault if someone doesn't have a good time, or that the DM can force someone to have fun. Some problems, it's true, are best solved by the players themselves, and other problems might simply go away on their own. But the DM should be concerned and keep an eye on how the party interacts as he tries to maximize or enhance the greatest amount of fun for the most people. 4) In addition, this isn't really a "players' problem" anyway: the DM awards XP, so the perception of whether he is doing so fairly is entirely within his control. (This may sound strange--how can a DM control what other people think? Of course he can't, but he does control whether he acts according to their expectations, and he plays a role in establishing those expectations with his own words and conduct. Thus, for instance, if a DM gives "roleplaying XP," he has an obligation to tell the players what he considers good roleplaying, how he determines awards, and to act consistently with what he's told the players. The players' opinions about good roleplaying may differ, but they know what to expect from their DM and can react accordingly.)
Archangel_Tyrael 02-26-07, 02:27 PM	YAY!! NOT SUED!! :D :D I think about the only things--from the core books--that aren't covered by the OGL are the actual awards for experience and how that translates into level-ups. Also several of the monsters are considered "intellectual property" by WoTC--such as beholders, mind flayers, and slaad (just to name a few).
Sereno 02-26-07, 03:27 PM	Implementing such a concept consistently among the vast variety of challenges one could present (take a look at traps and diplomatic challenges, for a few simple examples) is needlessly complicated and doesn't actually serve any real purpose. Personally, I think there's a world of difference between the party standing around and waiting for the rogue to disarm the trap (which counts as "help" in my book ... they were at least ready to do something) and going back to sleep without interacting with anyone in the battle. If a PC deliberately leaves themselves out of a potential challenge, such as staying in town while the rest of the PCs go into the dungeon, they don't deserve the XP the active PCs should get. I don't think everyone needs to contribute *equally*, but they do need to participate.
revnk 02-26-07, 04:32 PM	YAY!! NOT SUED!! :D :D I think about the only things--from the core books--that aren't covered by the OGL are the actual awards for experience and how that translates into level-ups. Also several of the monsters are considered "intellectual property" by WoTC--such as beholders, mind flayers, and slaad (just to name a few). That pretty much sums up what the OGL covers. Fair Use can be tricky, but (contrary to the way some IP owners behave) it still exists. Fair Use would allow you, for example, to quote a small, relevant portion of the beholder's stat block as part of a book review of the Monster Manual, but it would not allow you to reproduce the entire MM beholder text (stat block, illustration and description) as part of a module you were publishing (instead, you would have to secure a permission or license from Wizards). (Note that, contrary to popular belief, licensing issues have nothing to do with your profiting or whether you're selling anything: you could sell your book review in a gaming magazine, but your adventure module would still contain IP violations even if you were giving it away as a free PDF). All of which is WAAAAAY off-topic, but I like doing my bit to keep 'em* from trying to stop the signal.;) *As in the mysterious, generic, paranoid's "Them" that says things ("They say...") and does things ("Didja hear that they're trying to..."), not Wizards or anyone else in particular.