Ambiguous spell or faulty Dming? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ambiguous spell or faulty Dming? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dowjin
09-25-06, 04:43 PM I got into a short argument with my players over the wording of a spell, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, the effects of which needed after the following;

Drake [Copper Dragon (20) Warlock (2)] was grappling down a White Ethergaunt the party wanted to quickly smash before the bugger could cast any spells. The ethergaunt was running as-is from the Fiend Folio except with 100 extra hp and some enhanced spellcasting from a template created for plot purposes.

Van "Mr. Fireworks" [Ranger (10) Sorcerer (6) Rogue (1) Ninja Scout (1) Fighter (1)] Was getting some hefty blows in on the ethergaunt while it was nearly-helpless. It was going to drop the next round. In a fit of desperation it looked towards its host of spells and wondered just how it going to get out of this one.

I looked at Otilukes Resilient Sphere, and as my players gazed eagerly on, I said that (Concentration check in lieu of grapple, then -> Still Spell) magic was just spontaneously pulsing out from the ethergaunt, words and etc sputtered, and then immidiately a sphere of shimmering magical force exploded outwards- shoving Van and Drake backwards the 6.5' radius of the spell, and encasing the singular target within.

The wording of the spell mentions nothing of pushing, cutting, or anything involving anything -other- than the single target it traps. The ethergaunt used this spell on himself as its shield and then planeshifted away and out of it the next round.

Now, my players made a valid argument concerning semantics, in that the spell says that the energy "encloses" the target, suggesting that the spell shrinks into being, rather than expanding outwards.

My problem with this- is that Joe Mage, walking around on his own two feet and suddenly called upon to shield himself from some threat; would have the area of effect passing through the ground. So either; the spell has to CUT the material it passes through; hold it; or push it away. Since the spell lists only a single target, I reason that the globe pushes everything else away, and suspends the target in the center of the globe above the ground to its radius.

I would have ruled that the spell simply fizzled, except then the spell would almost ALWAYS fizzle, if anything other than the target was ever in range. Be it ground, walls, comrades... Which seems a silly thing for a 4th level spell to do.

Has anyone else had this problem? What would you rule?
Conshey
09-25-06, 05:04 PM Apon close inspection of the spell and the situational conditions you provided i would say that the spell automatically incorperates the exhistance of the ground and therefore takes it into consideration when it is cast. The creature itself usually needs the ground to support itself. now force effects never actually come from anywhere, they are created and so with that in mind the sphere wouldn't cut anything. It also looks like the sphere also traps everything that it envelopes, the effect of the spell is 1-ft-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature, now with that in mind it could in theory capture multiple creatures in the same sphere. I niether cuts nor pushes, it will hold everything in the sphere exactly the way they were, none to get out and none to go in.

So to answer your question, it probably a bad call on your part. but hey look on the bright side, everyone makes mistakes, and your just human. i wouldn't mention the mistake to your players as that they see your ruling as right. just make sure you don't make the same mistake twice.

Conshey
Kradlo
09-25-06, 05:18 PM I think it's a very innovative use of the spell. The interpretation of the effect is up to you to make, and that's the interpretation you chose. I have no problem with it whatsoever.

Do remember that this is a two-edged sword; it cuts both ways. Your players will now remember this and may use it to their advantage in the future. Consistency is required for a game to be fair.

The one portion of the story I have to question is the use of Still Spell. White Ethergaunts cast spells as a 13th level wizard - that means that they must memorize their spells in advance. The metamagic feat Still Spell requires the spell to be memorized as a stilled spell to be used that way. Now, if the ethergaunt had the Sudden Still Spell feat, he could have used it on the fly.

It's easy to retcon the ethergaunt to Sudden Still Spell if necessary, but that's mostly for the sake of continuity fix. Just don't use the retcon cover too often. GMs are human and occasionally make mistakes, so don't sweat it either way.
Kradlo
09-25-06, 05:24 PM It also looks like the sphere also traps everything that it envelopes, the effect of the spell is 1-ft-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature, now with that in mind it could in theory capture multiple creatures in the same sphere. I niether cuts nor pushes, it will hold everything in the sphere exactly the way they were, none to get out and none to go in.
Conshey
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere will hold one creature, period. It cannot be used to entrap more than one creature.

To that end, I think it is a very reasonable interpretation of the spell effect that it would forcibly separate grappled creatures to entrap the target. When the spherical bubble of force is created it would necessarily move other creatures out of the way as it forms, since it can only entrap the one creature.
Dag
09-25-06, 05:30 PM It's a clever use of the spell, and not a bad ruling all together, but I can certainly understand a player being cheesed off by this and I do think it's a bit on the un-fair side - Especially considering that they had this dude grappled. The most fair thing to do might have been to allow the grappler(s) a chance to get into the sphere with the guy, maybe the spell shouldn't instantly break up a grapple. Give the grappler a reflex save to get into the sphere rather than to avoid as usual, or let him roll a grapple check and if he beats the spell DC he manages to keep his hold on the foe rather than automatically losing the dude he had his arms wrapped around.
Perhaps next time just go with the verbal dimension door to escape a grapple.
Dowjin
09-25-06, 06:03 PM Conshey - I -could- rule that for now, except it would go beyond grappled limbs in epic levels, they would be capturing likely 2-3 people per spell. It distinctly can only hold ONE creature. I also don't plan on changing that ruling, I'm pretty consistant, and I've always been a big fan of the PCs doing whatever they want, and having NPCs react in kind. Only fair that they use it the same way.

Kradlo - My favorite class is sorcerer, spellcasting encounters are always tougher by that fact... I simply play them better. XD Though you do raise a good point I hadn't realized- they casted as WIZARDS. Usually I skip over the "casts as" text and just pull out the caster level; but that actually mattered here. I'll expand on that in a second, read my reply to Dag. Thanks for the input.

Dag - They didn't feel cheesed, in fact Drake begs for challenge and savors fights that leave him 1 hp the victor. The ethergaunt being grappled has no other effect that requiring a concentration check, and him losing somatic components. More on cheese, and dimension door; They've fought 2 ethergaunts prior and their minions, they were communicating through the odd minion making a break for the main force to report, or warning messages cast by magic. The ethergaunt in question was fully aware of the party's abilities, which included blindsight and AOEs. He needed to be -invulnerable- for a few rounds, nothing less. On grappling the caster still, read previous posts on how only the target can be imprisoned. The only cheese I did is referred to in Kradlo's point, and I hadn't thought to prepare a note saying so before hand; but its -reasonable- enough that they had it prepared, given that they knew a day prior Drake's "tanking" abilities.
Dag
09-25-06, 06:12 PM Don't be so defensive man, I wasn't implying that anything you did was cheesy. In fact I belive that I said "It's a clever use of the spell and not a bad ruling on your part."
My concern was that the players might think it's cheesy. Coming from a game where the DM always manages to find a way for his major villains to escape in ways that are sometimes questionable sometimes gets the players frustrated and "cheesed off" - if you take offense at that phrase well then you need to lighten up. I posted to be helpful and maybe to point out that if this (The villains always seem to escape) is an on-going theme in your game then the players are probably pretty annoyed with it. If it's not the case then any suggestions to that affect can be easily disregarded.
Lighten up.
Dowjin
09-25-06, 06:20 PM Dag - I didn't mean to sound defensive, one of the downfalls of communicating with text ^^; My apologies.

As for villians always escaping, thats not the case unless it -is-... Which extends to just as far as their abilities permit them to. They want to live. They usually have a contingency plan or two, and will fight tooth and nail, because they're "real" people too. Spellcasters almost always escape because the party doesn't have much anti-magic, and the sorceress in the party favors combat magic and being "better" rather than nulling enemy casters.

Other than that, they're usually pretty good at finishing fights.
DarkNick
09-25-06, 06:31 PM What can you do from within the sphere? I like your use of the spell, but I would question whether you can planeshift from within it.

The spell says something like "the sphere contains its subject for the spell's duration" i.e. you can't get out. Thats my interpretation anyway. I guess you could always rule that the sphere went with it when it planeshifted.
Kradlo
09-25-06, 09:51 PM There's nothing in the description of Otiluke's Resilient Sphere to suggest that it bars dimensional travel. It's a very handy spell for entrapping creatures, regardless of how they move, except for teleporters and plane shifters. If it had the power to work as a dimensional anchor, it would have been listed in the spell description.

As it is, you get a lot out of the spell, and I will steal the idea of using defensively some time, as a player and/or as a GM. It's positively sneaky!

Dowjin - just make a note that this White Ethergaunt took Sudden Still Spell as a feat instead of one of the other feats the creature would normally have. He's "the one that got away," and so will return sometime to be a thorn in somebody's side, perhaps having advanced a few levels as a wizard, or having taken some prestige class or other. Argent Savant would be a good choice, given the creature's penchant for force spells.
Dowjin
09-25-06, 11:26 PM DarkNick - I thought that at first glance too, but it actually even says that the individual inside can struggle all they want and by logic; act as they'd like. All it is- is a sphere of force encapsuling a single target; thats indestructible except for a few listed means. It doesn't cast dimensional anchor, or emulate any other effect than making an impervious bubble.

Kradlo - Try Otilukes Telekinetic Sphere on for size. XD

Being a thorn in the side is what the ethergaunt plans to do.

Thanks for the suggestions and consensus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dowjin 09-25-06, 04:43 PM	I got into a short argument with my players over the wording of a spell, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, the effects of which needed after the following; Drake [Copper Dragon (20) Warlock (2)] was grappling down a White Ethergaunt the party wanted to quickly smash before the bugger could cast any spells. The ethergaunt was running as-is from the Fiend Folio except with 100 extra hp and some enhanced spellcasting from a template created for plot purposes. Van "Mr. Fireworks" [Ranger (10) Sorcerer (6) Rogue (1) Ninja Scout (1) Fighter (1)] Was getting some hefty blows in on the ethergaunt while it was nearly-helpless. It was going to drop the next round. In a fit of desperation it looked towards its host of spells and wondered just how it going to get out of this one. I looked at Otilukes Resilient Sphere, and as my players gazed eagerly on, I said that (Concentration check in lieu of grapple, then -> Still Spell) magic was just spontaneously pulsing out from the ethergaunt, words and etc sputtered, and then immidiately a sphere of shimmering magical force exploded outwards- shoving Van and Drake backwards the 6.5' radius of the spell, and encasing the singular target within. The wording of the spell mentions nothing of pushing, cutting, or anything involving anything -other- than the single target it traps. The ethergaunt used this spell on himself as its shield and then planeshifted away and out of it the next round. Now, my players made a valid argument concerning semantics, in that the spell says that the energy "encloses" the target, suggesting that the spell shrinks into being, rather than expanding outwards. My problem with this- is that Joe Mage, walking around on his own two feet and suddenly called upon to shield himself from some threat; would have the area of effect passing through the ground. So either; the spell has to CUT the material it passes through; hold it; or push it away. Since the spell lists only a single target, I reason that the globe pushes everything else away, and suspends the target in the center of the globe above the ground to its radius. I would have ruled that the spell simply fizzled, except then the spell would almost ALWAYS fizzle, if anything other than the target was ever in range. Be it ground, walls, comrades... Which seems a silly thing for a 4th level spell to do. Has anyone else had this problem? What would you rule?
Conshey 09-25-06, 05:04 PM	Apon close inspection of the spell and the situational conditions you provided i would say that the spell automatically incorperates the exhistance of the ground and therefore takes it into consideration when it is cast. The creature itself usually needs the ground to support itself. now force effects never actually come from anywhere, they are created and so with that in mind the sphere wouldn't cut anything. It also looks like the sphere also traps everything that it envelopes, the effect of the spell is 1-ft-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature, now with that in mind it could in theory capture multiple creatures in the same sphere. I niether cuts nor pushes, it will hold everything in the sphere exactly the way they were, none to get out and none to go in. So to answer your question, it probably a bad call on your part. but hey look on the bright side, everyone makes mistakes, and your just human. i wouldn't mention the mistake to your players as that they see your ruling as right. just make sure you don't make the same mistake twice. Conshey
Kradlo 09-25-06, 05:18 PM	I think it's a very innovative use of the spell. The interpretation of the effect is up to you to make, and that's the interpretation you chose. I have no problem with it whatsoever. Do remember that this is a two-edged sword; it cuts both ways. Your players will now remember this and may use it to their advantage in the future. Consistency is required for a game to be fair. The one portion of the story I have to question is the use of Still Spell. White Ethergaunts cast spells as a 13th level wizard - that means that they must memorize their spells in advance. The metamagic feat Still Spell requires the spell to be memorized as a stilled spell to be used that way. Now, if the ethergaunt had the Sudden Still Spell feat, he could have used it on the fly. It's easy to retcon the ethergaunt to Sudden Still Spell if necessary, but that's mostly for the sake of continuity fix. Just don't use the retcon cover too often. GMs are human and occasionally make mistakes, so don't sweat it either way.
Kradlo 09-25-06, 05:24 PM	It also looks like the sphere also traps everything that it envelopes, the effect of the spell is 1-ft-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature, now with that in mind it could in theory capture multiple creatures in the same sphere. I niether cuts nor pushes, it will hold everything in the sphere exactly the way they were, none to get out and none to go in. Conshey Otiluke's Resilient Sphere will hold one creature, period. It cannot be used to entrap more than one creature. To that end, I think it is a very reasonable interpretation of the spell effect that it would forcibly separate grappled creatures to entrap the target. When the spherical bubble of force is created it would necessarily move other creatures out of the way as it forms, since it can only entrap the one creature.
Dag 09-25-06, 05:30 PM	It's a clever use of the spell, and not a bad ruling all together, but I can certainly understand a player being cheesed off by this and I do think it's a bit on the un-fair side - Especially considering that they had this dude grappled. The most fair thing to do might have been to allow the grappler(s) a chance to get into the sphere with the guy, maybe the spell shouldn't instantly break up a grapple. Give the grappler a reflex save to get into the sphere rather than to avoid as usual, or let him roll a grapple check and if he beats the spell DC he manages to keep his hold on the foe rather than automatically losing the dude he had his arms wrapped around. Perhaps next time just go with the verbal dimension door to escape a grapple.
Dowjin 09-25-06, 06:03 PM	Conshey - I -could- rule that for now, except it would go beyond grappled limbs in epic levels, they would be capturing likely 2-3 people per spell. It distinctly can only hold ONE creature. I also don't plan on changing that ruling, I'm pretty consistant, and I've always been a big fan of the PCs doing whatever they want, and having NPCs react in kind. Only fair that they use it the same way. Kradlo - My favorite class is sorcerer, spellcasting encounters are always tougher by that fact... I simply play them better. XD Though you do raise a good point I hadn't realized- they casted as WIZARDS. Usually I skip over the "casts as" text and just pull out the caster level; but that actually mattered here. I'll expand on that in a second, read my reply to Dag. Thanks for the input. Dag - They didn't feel cheesed, in fact Drake begs for challenge and savors fights that leave him 1 hp the victor. The ethergaunt being grappled has no other effect that requiring a concentration check, and him losing somatic components. More on cheese, and dimension door; They've fought 2 ethergaunts prior and their minions, they were communicating through the odd minion making a break for the main force to report, or warning messages cast by magic. The ethergaunt in question was fully aware of the party's abilities, which included blindsight and AOEs. He needed to be -invulnerable- for a few rounds, nothing less. On grappling the caster still, read previous posts on how only the target can be imprisoned. The only cheese I did is referred to in Kradlo's point, and I hadn't thought to prepare a note saying so before hand; but its -reasonable- enough that they had it prepared, given that they knew a day prior Drake's "tanking" abilities.
Dag 09-25-06, 06:12 PM	Don't be so defensive man, I wasn't implying that anything you did was cheesy. In fact I belive that I said "It's a clever use of the spell and not a bad ruling on your part." My concern was that the players might think it's cheesy. Coming from a game where the DM always manages to find a way for his major villains to escape in ways that are sometimes questionable sometimes gets the players frustrated and "cheesed off" - if you take offense at that phrase well then you need to lighten up. I posted to be helpful and maybe to point out that if this (The villains always seem to escape) is an on-going theme in your game then the players are probably pretty annoyed with it. If it's not the case then any suggestions to that affect can be easily disregarded. Lighten up.
Dowjin 09-25-06, 06:20 PM	Dag - I didn't mean to sound defensive, one of the downfalls of communicating with text ^^; My apologies. As for villians always escaping, thats not the case unless it -is-... Which extends to just as far as their abilities permit them to. They want to live. They usually have a contingency plan or two, and will fight tooth and nail, because they're "real" people too. Spellcasters almost always escape because the party doesn't have much anti-magic, and the sorceress in the party favors combat magic and being "better" rather than nulling enemy casters. Other than that, they're usually pretty good at finishing fights.
DarkNick 09-25-06, 06:31 PM	What can you do from within the sphere? I like your use of the spell, but I would question whether you can planeshift from within it. The spell says something like "the sphere contains its subject for the spell's duration" i.e. you can't get out. Thats my interpretation anyway. I guess you could always rule that the sphere went with it when it planeshifted.
Kradlo 09-25-06, 09:51 PM	There's nothing in the description of Otiluke's Resilient Sphere to suggest that it bars dimensional travel. It's a very handy spell for entrapping creatures, regardless of how they move, except for teleporters and plane shifters. If it had the power to work as a dimensional anchor, it would have been listed in the spell description. As it is, you get a lot out of the spell, and I will steal the idea of using defensively some time, as a player and/or as a GM. It's positively sneaky! Dowjin - just make a note that this White Ethergaunt took Sudden Still Spell as a feat instead of one of the other feats the creature would normally have. He's "the one that got away," and so will return sometime to be a thorn in somebody's side, perhaps having advanced a few levels as a wizard, or having taken some prestige class or other. Argent Savant would be a good choice, given the creature's penchant for force spells.
Dowjin 09-25-06, 11:26 PM	DarkNick - I thought that at first glance too, but it actually even says that the individual inside can struggle all they want and by logic; act as they'd like. All it is- is a sphere of force encapsuling a single target; thats indestructible except for a few listed means. It doesn't cast dimensional anchor, or emulate any other effect than making an impervious bubble. Kradlo - Try Otilukes Telekinetic Sphere on for size. XD Being a thorn in the side is what the ethergaunt plans to do. Thanks for the suggestions and consensus.