Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Delryn 11-11-04, 07:59 PM	I haven't seen any rules for ambushes, in the books I own Eg. the party is in the view and range of the ambushers. The ambushers hold their attack for just the right moment, shouldn't they get a bonus to hit for taking the time to aim carefully? I seem to remember this being the case in 1st edition (could be wrong though) As it stands I am giving the attackers a +3 on their initial attack Any Comments
Saiph 11-11-04, 08:32 PM	actually, a good ambush nets you better than a +3 bonus on the first round. If pulled off successfully, the attackers get a suprise round. If a group is attacked by people they were not aware of (or did not expect to be hostile) the attacking group gets a suprise round. They get 1 standard action to use before anyone even rolls initiative. I give the PC's a chance to notice, usually a last ditch spot or sense motive check right before the fit hits the shan. If they make it, they get to roll initiative with the NPC's to react in the suprise round. After the 1 standard action is through, everyone rolls initiative, and combat progresses as normal.
Burgundy Lotus 11-11-04, 08:52 PM	I agree, a good ambush nets the ambushers the surprise round. Just those few actions can really help turn the battle
BloodGod 11-11-04, 09:02 PM	I don't think someone suprised gets their Dexterity bonus to AC, correct me otherwise. -BG
Lord_Anthrax 11-11-04, 09:06 PM	Yes, if they don't have Uncanny Dodge. That's the real benny to ambush. A surprise round and unless they have that class ability, no Dex bonus. This is where a gang of Rogues really shines. :cool:
Dash Branaghan 11-11-04, 09:55 PM	Not only will the party lose their Dex bonus, but they don't gain it back until their turn the following round. They remain flat-footed until they get an action. Which means some of the PCs, depending on how well you roll your initiative and how poorly they roll theirs, may get two attacks with no Dex. If you make a melee attack from higher ground, you gain a +1 bonus. If you can stun your opponents, they take a -2 penalty against both ranged and melee attacks PLUS they lose their dexterity. Give your ranged attackers cover and they get a +4 bonus to their AC (a big enough difference to affect mid and low level parties). If you can blind your enemies, they take another -2 to AC, and if you entangle them, there is another -2 to AC. Ah, so many bonuses and penalties that you can work with when planning an ambush. Dash
Magnus029 11-11-04, 09:59 PM	Ah, so many bonuses and penalties that you can work with when planning an ambush. Dash Has anyone told you how evil you are lately? :D Of course I mean that as a compliment.
Delryn 11-11-04, 10:27 PM	So my party in a pitch black cave - only light source is the dancing lights and torches that they use habitually - is crossing a 120' rope bridge which already makes them flat footed (2 ropes to hold onto and 1 to walk on, 80' above water) How does the party already being flatfooted affect a surprise situation? Is visible by the 50 or so goblin archers on another 3 stone bridges the goblin loaded bridges are 70' away (outside of lowlight + darkvision range) and 20' higher, with 2'6" walls as additional cover the goblins would see the party's light and fire at the general area
primemover003 11-11-04, 10:45 PM	Actually the Goblins would be able to target the PC's because they are in the light with no penalty. Being on higher grounds doesn't really do anything for Ranged attacks. Being flat-footed already will make no difference... however if a PC has 5 ranks in balance they won't be flat-footed because of the Balance check. Most likely the PC's could have a Listen check to know that "something is out there" that either you can roll, or you can let them roll... if you let them roll make sure to ask for frequent checks that don't mean anything. It'll discourage the dice is rolling combat must be near syndrome. 50 goblin archers??? I'm guessing the Party is maybe 5-8th levels? If not this could be a pretty nasty encounter!!! A possible counter-tactic will be to direct the Dancing lights over to where the fire is coming from (which puts your PC's in the Dark and possibly reveals the gobbo's)...
Dash Branaghan 11-11-04, 10:56 PM	Being flat-footed already will make no difference... however if a PC has 5 ranks in balance they won't be flat-footed because of the Balance check. I think you misread that. If you are balancing and you are attacked, you are considered flat-footed because you cannot really dodge. If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren't considered flat footed when balancing. Balance has no effect on Flat Footedness due to surprise. Dash
ShadowDragon8685 11-11-04, 10:57 PM	Well, that sounds nice and nasty... *sucks in breath through teeth.* That could well wind up being an ambush on the wings of TPK. Remember, the goblins are just saturating the area with arrows. That means the ropes they're on are just as much targets as the PCs are. :) (I'm going to assume the party has 4 people in it. You may need to ajust.) The goblins' attacks roll a D20. 2-8 hits one of the players, determined by marching order. 9 hits one of the ropes. 10-20 hits air. That is: PC1 gets hit on a roll of 1 or 2. PC 2 gets hit on a roll of 3 or 4. PC 3 gets hit on a roll of 5 or 6. PC 6 gets hit on a roll of 7 or 8. One of the ropes gets hit on a roll of 9. A roll of 10 through 20 hits nothing. If a PC gets hit, let him make a Spot check to determine the direction of the goblins that threw it. That would be like: DC 10: You know which arc (front, left, right, or back) the goblins are shooting you from. DC 25: You have pinpointed the goblins' direction, but not the range. DC 30: You know the range to target and direction. If they know the goblin's direction, let them return fire with the same D20 chooses who gets hit method. Shooting an arrow from the rope bridge should need a Balance check at DC25 to pull off. Casting a spell should take Concentration DC 30. (or Balance DC25, whichever the wizard/sorcerer/cleric/whatever has better.) If they have Stilled Spells, let them fire without taking a check. Also, goblins are not quiet creatures. Let them make a DC 20 and 25 Listen check to determine direction and range, as well. Remember, there are three ropes. If one gets cut (it'll be one of the hand ropes first,) then the PCs now have two ropes with which to work. They should immideately begin scrambling to the other side. (DC 10 Balance check to make your move action. All attack actions go up in DC by 10.) (at this point, I'd allow someone who has ranks in Balance to perform a tightrope action, by holding a bow or something out in front of them and running along the rope. DC 30 to make a full Run action.) If the second rope (the one under them) gets cut, they need to make a DC 10 Reflex save to grab onto the other rope with both hands. They can now walk hand-over hand towards the other side. (By this point, all those lanterns, etcetera, as well as weapons being held, but not shields, will have fallen. If they want to try and keep one of them, it's a DC25 Reflex check instead.) If the THIRD rope gets cut, it's now a DC 20 Climb check to hold onto the rope as it falls towards the other side and hits. If you fall, well... You're pretty dead. If you don't fall, you can now climb up the rope as per normal rules of climbing - but the impact will hurt. 2d6 Bludgeoning, and you have to make a Reflex save at DC10 + damage dealt to avoid falling.
Dash Branaghan 11-11-04, 11:03 PM	So my party in a pitch black cave - only light source is the dancing lights and torches that they use habitually - is crossing a 120' rope bridge which already makes them flat footed (2 ropes to hold onto and 1 to walk on, 80' above water) Nice. I would have them make checks based on damage. How does the party already being flatfooted affect a surprise situation? The party is flat footed and loses Dex. If they don't have balance of 5 ranks or higher, they will be flat footed until they cross the bridge. If they have 5 ranks of more in balance, they will get their dex back on their turn. So for now, the surprise round gives the attackers an automatic action in which to fire arrows at the PCs in their well lit position. If they are real smart, they will go for the ropes. Those are the only real bonuses they get. Dash
Delryn 11-12-04, 01:30 AM	50 goblin archers??? I'm guessing the Party is maybe 5-8th levels? If not this could be a pretty nasty encounter!!! 10 lvl, someone made the mistake of saying goblins were no challenge. When used to their full potential, they can deter just about anyone. They haven't got close to actually entering the lair yet and the party is already shaken from the trap they got past just to get on the bridge (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=335125) Well, that sounds nice and nasty... *sucks in breath through teeth.* That could well wind up being an ambush on the wings of TPK. Remember, the goblins are just saturating the area with arrows. TPK? That means the ropes they're on are just as much targets as the PCs are. :D :D :D now that would imply that I was cruel and/or devious, thanks for the compliment And thanks for all the feedback
Dash Branaghan 11-12-04, 01:33 AM	10 lvl, someone made the mistake of saying goblins were no challenge. When used to their full potential, they can deter just about anyone. Don't forget to use swarming tactics. Nothing like goblins bullrushing the party off the edge using group tactics...loads of fun. TPK? TPK = Total Party Kill. Everyone dies. My favorite was a group of 5th levels who decided that a kobold village wasn't going to be that difficult to take out. Not only was the kobold village a case of whomp ass against them, but the Pyrohydra that lived in the cave above the village and was worshipped by the kobolds who brought it living sacrifices also proved enough to make them stop underestimating the little races. Dash
Delryn 11-13-04, 02:53 AM	Don't forget to use swarming tactics. Nothing like goblins bullrushing the party off the edge using group tactics...loads of fun. There is a large contingent of spear wielding goblins on worgs and a few dire wolves (for flavor) just around a rock outcropping on the other side of the bridge just for that (if the bridge is still intact and they make it across alive) Once the party gets past them, it should really start to get interesting for the party! ;) TPK = Total Party Kill. Everyone dies. My favorite was a group of 5th levels who decided that a kobold village wasn't going to be that difficult to take out. Not only was the kobold village a case of whomp ass against them, but the Pyrohydra that lived in the cave above the village and was worshipped by the kobolds who brought it living sacrifices also proved enough to make them stop underestimating the little races. Dash Gee Might have to ask you to trade a few adventures some time, sound like we run similar style games
FriendoftheDork 11-13-04, 09:07 AM	ehm seems like you all forget the +2 bonus on attack rolls for attacker invisible. If the targets cannot see the ambushers, the attackers are invisible to them and get +2 on attack rolls. That only applied in the attack round though, unless the attackers manage the -20 hide check to remain concealed after firing (not so difficult given range or distraction). +2 and lose dex to ac is bad enough. and +3 is a nasty odd number that I don't like. use +4 if you have to upp the number
ShadowDragon8685 11-13-04, 09:25 AM	May I suggest that gunning for a TPK is a good way to get the party to hate you? Why not just have a pair of Goblin Barbarians with Goblin-sized Greataxes standing at each side of the bridge. Three attack rolls from both of them (or one Whirlwind,) and the PCs are falling into oblivion. Okay everyone, you take about 169d6 damage...
Dash Branaghan 11-13-04, 12:50 PM	Might have to ask you to trade a few adventures some time, sound like we run similar style games Never give a sucker and even break. I like using large groups of small CR creatures (they breed faster and provide more fodder) to really throw a challenge at the party. I had 16 dire rats do some great damage to the party...caught them while they were sleeping (the one guy on watch was tending to the wounded from the previous battle). Lots of disease was spread and potions and healing spells were used that battle. Just remember something. If you have a wizard or sorcerer with rope trick, they can negate breaking the ropes. If they think about it. Dash
Delryn 11-13-04, 07:33 PM	Never give a sucker and even break. I like using large groups of small CR creatures (they breed faster and provide more fodder) to really throw a challenge at the party. I had 16 dire rats do some great damage to the party...caught them while they were sleeping (the one guy on watch was tending to the wounded from the previous battle). Lots of disease was spread and potions and healing spells were used that battle. Dash This adventure starts with the party facing anumber of different swarms at once 1d6+3 out of a possible 13 (randomly determine the # of swarms but there is enough creatures for 13 if the party doesn't high tail it through the area) centipedes (MM), spiders (MM), bats (MM), and at least one swarm of scarab beetles (FF) and all their wonderful attr. affecting poisons Then they proceed into a CR10 area effect trap with another variety of attr. affecting poisons, which is the very beginning of the above described bridge. All this just softens them up for the 100 or so goblins, which will use guerilla, hit and run, and of course swarming tactics (plus the critters they keep in their kennels - worgs, dire wolves) led by a lvl 9 NPC. The last bit would be no problem for a 10th lv party, but seeing as there will be no time to heal, or rememorize spells.... Then again it could be easier than I planned for