Amedio Jungle Players Stay Out! - Need Help Balancing Magic Item [Archive] - Wizards Community

Amedio Jungle Players Stay Out! - Need Help Balancing Magic Item [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Puskara
08-02-05, 02:53 AM So I did a little contest where my players submitted magic items and I would pick one to place in the game. The player who created it woudl know the lore surrounding the item (IC) from a story told them in thier childhood and this will enable them to activate its powers. FYI in my game there is no identify and magic always tends to have a drawback.

The item he suggested is a orb of cats-eye agate that 3/day allows you to mod a spell with a metamagic feat. There would be a table and you roll % dice to see which one you get.

The problem with this items is there is not really a drawback and the value of the items could be very large depending upon the feats on the table. I have modified the idea and would like some comments or further suggestions.

Rondure et WeJass (Ancient Sulouise for Globe of We Jas)

This crystaline orb (4" diameter) grants the user of metamagic feats but at a price. the player must hod the orb in a free hand to use this item. When a spell is cast the user may opt to apply a metamagic feat. The feat used is determined by rolling on a table with % dice.

For each spell level of adjustment normally applied to the spell the user takes and equal number of points of constitution damage as blood is drawn into the orb. The blood precipitates through the globe like a roiling mist of the appropriate color until the orb is fully flushed. At the beginning of the next round the blood swirls into a point in the center of the orb and dissapears, never to return. The orb does not work for anyone who does not posess blood or who is immune to ability or CON damage. The damage can be healed in the normal means.

That is basically the details on its function. Any suggestions? If the price too high, or perhaps too low? Would you use such an item if you were a caster? Guesses at its value? Perhaps a compulsion should be there to use the item if you have it in the hand. Any ideas on the particular metamagic feats to place on the table? I think the item conveys the feel of WeJas (magic and death), any ideas to make it more so?

I suppose an alternate use is that it would soak up and indefinite amount of blood. =P

Thanks!
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple
08-02-05, 03:12 AM I'd just make it an intelligent item that just happens to be a Lich's phylactery but otherwise acted exactly as according to the player's specs...

Still, that's a pretty nice setup, but I'd make it a flat 2 con damage per use. Feat-wise, I'd say that it should include EVERY metamagic feat that you have available to you, but that metamagic feats that have another feat as a prereq takes up two uses of the item per day and acts as though it has been used twice in terms of con damage.

I would also have the item store three metamagic feats. The only way to get a feat that has another feat as a prereq would be to roll two feats up, then 50/50 it to determine wether the third feat is basic or if it is one with a feat prerequisite. And if it DOES have a prerequisite, it would be selected from the list of feats that the two feats already on the orb would qualify for (or rolled randomly if the list is quite large, which it should be).
Gray Eminence
08-02-05, 04:03 AM Good idea, but the CON cost is too large. If I were a magic-user, I would not use this item. Ability damage heals too slowly, and a magic-user is usually not a CON-engine. Also, loosing CON makes you to loose Hp, and Hp is also not something most magic-users have in unnecessary quantities.

Example: Lork, the 6th level wizard has CON 16, which is an absolutely high score. He uses the item ×2 a day, and let's say he looses 4 CON. It also means loosing 2×level amount of Hp (a 6th level wizard with CON 16 has approx. 39 Hp, loosing 12 is a disaster), and a -2 on all Fort saves. Tomorrow he will have CON 13, and his max Hp would be still only 27, still -2 on all Fort saves. I doubt he will go into the dungeon happily, and surely he will not use the item for several days.

And do not count in the fact that there is (Lesser) Restoration, as this would mean that you essentially transfer the item's CON cost to the party cleric (and all other party emembers) in the form of limiting his/her spellcasting capacity by fixing that he/she will have to keep some (Lesser) Restoration spells especially for a single player.

Instead, consider using fatigue/exhaustion. Each use of the item makes the user fatigued for a number of minutes equal to the spell level adjustment, as the item draws on the vitality of the user. If someone already fatigued uses the item, he/she becomes exhausted. It can be quite limiting in a combat/active situation, but will not carry on the ill effects for days.

You should also consider what happens if you try to apply a metamagic feat to a spell that cannot benefit from that metamagic feat.

Is the use wasted? Or just nothing happens? Or is there a reroll? What happens to the CON cost?
Puskara
08-02-05, 06:29 AM Good idea, but the CON cost is too large. If I were a magic-user, I would not use this item. Ability damage heals too slowly, and a magic-user is usually not a CON-engine. Also, loosing CON makes you to loose Hp, and Hp is also not something most magic-users have in unnecessary quantities.

Example: Lork, the 6th level wizard has CON 16, which is an absolutely high score. He uses the item ×2 a day, and let's say he looses 4 CON. It also means loosing 2×level amount of Hp (a 6th level wizard with CON 16 has approx. 39 Hp, loosing 12 is a disaster), and a -2 on all Fort saves. Tomorrow he will have CON 13, and his max Hp would be still only 27, still -2 on all Fort saves. I doubt he will go into the dungeon happily, and surely he will not use the item for several days.

And do not count in the fact that there is (Lesser) Restoration, as this would mean that you essentially transfer the item's CON cost to the party cleric (and all other party emembers) in the form of limiting his/her spellcasting capacity by fixing that he/she will have to keep some (Lesser) Restoration spells especially for a single player.

Instead, consider using fatigue/exhaustion. Each use of the item makes the user fatigued for a number of minutes equal to the spell level adjustment, as the item draws on the vitality of the user. If someone already fatigued uses the item, he/she becomes exhausted. It can be quite limiting in a combat/active situation, but will not carry on the ill effects for days.

You should also consider what happens if you try to apply a metamagic feat to a spell that cannot benefit from that metamagic feat.

Is the use wasted? Or just nothing happens? Or is there a reroll? What happens to the CON cost?

I wrote this post while I was VERY busy. I appologize for the lack of backstory and poor spelling.

I did want the cost to make use of the item strategic. Originally I was inspired by the players idea, the manastone for EQ, and by the idea of a god of death and magic. I feel that WeJas is willing to grant great power but always with the threat of death, to remind the magic user that death comes to all and great power comes at great cost.

I agree that it woudl be scary as a caster to lose 4 CON. I also remember that if one were to lose 4 CON that means you got a Maximize or a Quicken, both of which are extreamly powerful.

I very much like the fatigue/exhaustion idea. I am concerned about the durations being equall to the spell level adjustment in minutes. I find that anything which is a threat to my party (my appogies for not giving detailed infomation, 2 clerics, 1 fighter, 1 barbarian, 1 rogue, 1 sorcerer, 1 wizard) will result in a TPK if the fight lasts for more than a minute. This does assume a strait fight and I could protract fights using terrain or enviromental objects but I cannot see that being doen with each encounter. Thus I am worried that the price is no more painfull if you have a 4 level adjustment as opposed to a 2 level adjustment.

I could make this more impactfull by trying to make encounters more time sensetive but it may be a hard trend to sustain.

That aside I could image a progressivly worse progression of effects for each use: Dazzled, Fatigued, Exhausted, Sickened. These effects would stack and the durations overlap.

GrayE, do you feel a limitation is needed on uses per day? There are also a few metamagic feats that require certain alignments. I suppose if they come up the person may try a UMD check to emulate or it would fail. Perhaps force a check and if they suceed they have to deal with the potential alignment issues with continued use?

I am tempted to rule that if a metamagic feat that is rolled does not apply then the use is wasted and the adverse effect still takes place. I want the items to be tempting but I also want them to worry about using it. Any item that grants access to feats would be extreamly valuable, I need to counter that with the downside, one which cannot be overcome by smart players. =)

Note that the player who will know the background and is most likley to use the item is my Sorcerer / Wild mage. So he will get to roll twice for effects and pick the one he wants. Of course if he hates it then my ancestral relic weilding fighter may just sublimate the thing into his weapon and for that and general balance I cannot remove the negitive, whatever that may be.

Thanks for the feedback. Let me knwo what you folks think of my revised idea.

Puskara
Gray Eminence
08-02-05, 10:45 AM Limits on uses per day: I think it is needed, especially if you use the fatigue/exhaustion method, as an exhausted character can use it "without penalty". However, if it is 3/day, a 4 level negative effect progression is useless. You can also rule it is useable (main ability bonus)/day.

UMD for alignment is a good idea. Forced alignment chance is not. It may cause more problems during the campaign than it is needed.

Also, not useable = wasted is in line with the standard game rules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puskara 08-02-05, 02:53 AM	So I did a little contest where my players submitted magic items and I would pick one to place in the game. The player who created it woudl know the lore surrounding the item (IC) from a story told them in thier childhood and this will enable them to activate its powers. FYI in my game there is no identify and magic always tends to have a drawback. The item he suggested is a orb of cats-eye agate that 3/day allows you to mod a spell with a metamagic feat. There would be a table and you roll % dice to see which one you get. The problem with this items is there is not really a drawback and the value of the items could be very large depending upon the feats on the table. I have modified the idea and would like some comments or further suggestions. Rondure et WeJass (Ancient Sulouise for Globe of We Jas) This crystaline orb (4" diameter) grants the user of metamagic feats but at a price. the player must hod the orb in a free hand to use this item. When a spell is cast the user may opt to apply a metamagic feat. The feat used is determined by rolling on a table with % dice. For each spell level of adjustment normally applied to the spell the user takes and equal number of points of constitution damage as blood is drawn into the orb. The blood precipitates through the globe like a roiling mist of the appropriate color until the orb is fully flushed. At the beginning of the next round the blood swirls into a point in the center of the orb and dissapears, never to return. The orb does not work for anyone who does not posess blood or who is immune to ability or CON damage. The damage can be healed in the normal means. That is basically the details on its function. Any suggestions? If the price too high, or perhaps too low? Would you use such an item if you were a caster? Guesses at its value? Perhaps a compulsion should be there to use the item if you have it in the hand. Any ideas on the particular metamagic feats to place on the table? I think the item conveys the feel of WeJas (magic and death), any ideas to make it more so? I suppose an alternate use is that it would soak up and indefinite amount of blood. =P Thanks!
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 08-02-05, 03:12 AM	I'd just make it an intelligent item that just happens to be a Lich's phylactery but otherwise acted exactly as according to the player's specs... Still, that's a pretty nice setup, but I'd make it a flat 2 con damage per use. Feat-wise, I'd say that it should include EVERY metamagic feat that you have available to you, but that metamagic feats that have another feat as a prereq takes up two uses of the item per day and acts as though it has been used twice in terms of con damage. I would also have the item store three metamagic feats. The only way to get a feat that has another feat as a prereq would be to roll two feats up, then 50/50 it to determine wether the third feat is basic or if it is one with a feat prerequisite. And if it DOES have a prerequisite, it would be selected from the list of feats that the two feats already on the orb would qualify for (or rolled randomly if the list is quite large, which it should be).
Gray Eminence 08-02-05, 04:03 AM	Good idea, but the CON cost is too large. If I were a magic-user, I would not use this item. Ability damage heals too slowly, and a magic-user is usually not a CON-engine. Also, loosing CON makes you to loose Hp, and Hp is also not something most magic-users have in unnecessary quantities. Example: Lork, the 6th level wizard has CON 16, which is an absolutely high score. He uses the item ×2 a day, and let's say he looses 4 CON. It also means loosing 2×level amount of Hp (a 6th level wizard with CON 16 has approx. 39 Hp, loosing 12 is a disaster), and a -2 on all Fort saves. Tomorrow he will have CON 13, and his max Hp would be still only 27, still -2 on all Fort saves. I doubt he will go into the dungeon happily, and surely he will not use the item for several days. And do not count in the fact that there is (Lesser) Restoration, as this would mean that you essentially transfer the item's CON cost to the party cleric (and all other party emembers) in the form of limiting his/her spellcasting capacity by fixing that he/she will have to keep some (Lesser) Restoration spells especially for a single player. Instead, consider using fatigue/exhaustion. Each use of the item makes the user fatigued for a number of minutes equal to the spell level adjustment, as the item draws on the vitality of the user. If someone already fatigued uses the item, he/she becomes exhausted. It can be quite limiting in a combat/active situation, but will not carry on the ill effects for days. You should also consider what happens if you try to apply a metamagic feat to a spell that cannot benefit from that metamagic feat. Is the use wasted? Or just nothing happens? Or is there a reroll? What happens to the CON cost?
Puskara 08-02-05, 06:29 AM	Good idea, but the CON cost is too large. If I were a magic-user, I would not use this item. Ability damage heals too slowly, and a magic-user is usually not a CON-engine. Also, loosing CON makes you to loose Hp, and Hp is also not something most magic-users have in unnecessary quantities. Example: Lork, the 6th level wizard has CON 16, which is an absolutely high score. He uses the item ×2 a day, and let's say he looses 4 CON. It also means loosing 2×level amount of Hp (a 6th level wizard with CON 16 has approx. 39 Hp, loosing 12 is a disaster), and a -2 on all Fort saves. Tomorrow he will have CON 13, and his max Hp would be still only 27, still -2 on all Fort saves. I doubt he will go into the dungeon happily, and surely he will not use the item for several days. And do not count in the fact that there is (Lesser) Restoration, as this would mean that you essentially transfer the item's CON cost to the party cleric (and all other party emembers) in the form of limiting his/her spellcasting capacity by fixing that he/she will have to keep some (Lesser) Restoration spells especially for a single player. Instead, consider using fatigue/exhaustion. Each use of the item makes the user fatigued for a number of minutes equal to the spell level adjustment, as the item draws on the vitality of the user. If someone already fatigued uses the item, he/she becomes exhausted. It can be quite limiting in a combat/active situation, but will not carry on the ill effects for days. You should also consider what happens if you try to apply a metamagic feat to a spell that cannot benefit from that metamagic feat. Is the use wasted? Or just nothing happens? Or is there a reroll? What happens to the CON cost? I wrote this post while I was VERY busy. I appologize for the lack of backstory and poor spelling. I did want the cost to make use of the item strategic. Originally I was inspired by the players idea, the manastone for EQ, and by the idea of a god of death and magic. I feel that WeJas is willing to grant great power but always with the threat of death, to remind the magic user that death comes to all and great power comes at great cost. I agree that it woudl be scary as a caster to lose 4 CON. I also remember that if one were to lose 4 CON that means you got a Maximize or a Quicken, both of which are extreamly powerful. I very much like the fatigue/exhaustion idea. I am concerned about the durations being equall to the spell level adjustment in minutes. I find that anything which is a threat to my party (my appogies for not giving detailed infomation, 2 clerics, 1 fighter, 1 barbarian, 1 rogue, 1 sorcerer, 1 wizard) will result in a TPK if the fight lasts for more than a minute. This does assume a strait fight and I could protract fights using terrain or enviromental objects but I cannot see that being doen with each encounter. Thus I am worried that the price is no more painfull if you have a 4 level adjustment as opposed to a 2 level adjustment. I could make this more impactfull by trying to make encounters more time sensetive but it may be a hard trend to sustain. That aside I could image a progressivly worse progression of effects for each use: Dazzled, Fatigued, Exhausted, Sickened. These effects would stack and the durations overlap. GrayE, do you feel a limitation is needed on uses per day? There are also a few metamagic feats that require certain alignments. I suppose if they come up the person may try a UMD check to emulate or it would fail. Perhaps force a check and if they suceed they have to deal with the potential alignment issues with continued use? I am tempted to rule that if a metamagic feat that is rolled does not apply then the use is wasted and the adverse effect still takes place. I want the items to be tempting but I also want them to worry about using it. Any item that grants access to feats would be extreamly valuable, I need to counter that with the downside, one which cannot be overcome by smart players. =) Note that the player who will know the background and is most likley to use the item is my Sorcerer / Wild mage. So he will get to roll twice for effects and pick the one he wants. Of course if he hates it then my ancestral relic weilding fighter may just sublimate the thing into his weapon and for that and general balance I cannot remove the negitive, whatever that may be. Thanks for the feedback. Let me knwo what you folks think of my revised idea. Puskara
Gray Eminence 08-02-05, 10:45 AM	Limits on uses per day: I think it is needed, especially if you use the fatigue/exhaustion method, as an exhausted character can use it "without penalty". However, if it is 3/day, a 4 level negative effect progression is useless. You can also rule it is useable (main ability bonus)/day. UMD for alignment is a good idea. Forced alignment chance is not. It may cause more problems during the campaign than it is needed. Also, not useable = wasted is in line with the standard game rules.