An abuse of Alter Self? [Archive] - Wizards Community

An abuse of Alter Self? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Duvanok
12-01-07, 10:35 PM Hello, been a while.

I've been gaming with the same group for 6 years. One of the players wanted to try something different. I allowed him to play a tiefling. Rog4/Wiz4.

I've always thought Alter Self to be a horribly worded and confusing spell. Now that my player is an Outsider, it seems very overpowered. The spell states that the caster can "assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. . ." The player interprets this to mean that he can assume the form of an outsider (HD permitting of course). Thus, he made a list of all the outsiders that he can "transform" into and last session was running around as a Hell Hound, Visilight, and Xill, among others.

Is this right?! Am I missing something here? Should I shut this down? Help!
SilentOne
12-01-07, 10:43 PM Just remember, while he can look like a great deal of outsiders, he doesn't get most of the fun abilities (such as hell hound's firebreath).

Be sure to read through the spell some more and figure out exactly what the tiefling gets from his new form (isn't really much, considering it's a 2nd level spell).

Granted, alter self in the hands of outsiders is more powerful than for humanoids, but I don't think the difference is big enough that he could be cracking open your game with the spell.
Talisman
12-01-07, 10:58 PM This sounds extremely irritating. Too bad you're just the GM, and can't do anything about the RAW...

Hey, wait a minute! You're the GM! Nerf it! Nerf it quick!

For starters, you might limit ol' Tieflingy to the forms of outsiders he's actually familiar with (has seen or has read detailed descriptions of). A Knowledge (the planes) check would be appropriate here, DC 10 + CR or even 15 + CR.

Remember that each casting of alter self allows the caster to assume one alternate form. If he was running around as a hellhound, visilight, xill, and "others," that's a minimum of 5 castings of alter self. It's not like shapechange, where one casting lets you swap forms every round.

Keep in mind that alter self does not grant any special abilities, including extraordinary abilities. Also, the caster continues to use his own ability scores...if you've got a 10 Strength, you've got a 10 Strength no matter what form you assume.

Using the outsiders you listed, note that:

~A hellhound-form does not grant use of a breath weapon or firey bite, or even immunity to fire or cold vulnerability (neither are "gross physical qualities," nor are they listed in paragraph 4 of the spell description...read paragraph 5). Essentially, this shape grants a +5 NA bonus, 40' movement, a 1d8 bite attack, a few skill bonuses, and the lack of hands.

~Xill-form does not grant implant, improved grab, paralysis, planewalk, SR, or even extra claw attacks (again, paragraph 4). It grants a decent NA bonus, two 1d4 claws, and a speed of 40.

~Visilight-form does not grant charisma drain, gaze, telepathic link, DR, or a fly speed (no wings; flight is clearly an extraordinary ability). No flight means it doesn't even grant the +8 Move Silently bonus, since this is specifically noted as being due to the creature's ability to "float in near silence." This form grants a +7 NA bonus and a 1d6 claw attack...and that's about it.

When in doubt, re-read the rules, apply literally, and nit-pick to your heart's content :D

BTW, I've always thought that planetouched should be treated as humanoids anyway, which would negate this whole problem.
Some Like It Hot
12-02-07, 11:03 AM If it's shattering your game it's probably not being used in accordance with the rules. Alter Self is a good spell, not a game breaking one. The most he could do with it is turn into a form with very high natural armor (Dwarf Elder or something like that, I forget the book) so that he's difficult to hit with normal attacks.

So yeah, I wouldn't alter the spell itself, I would just make sure that you're applying all the applicable rules. If you are, and it's still disrupting your game, talk to the player out of game and ask that he curb it a bit.
kuonji
12-02-07, 11:25 AM Outsiders are cool and all, but max of 5HD should be limiting enough I would think, expecially when you consider you get almost no special abilities.
Kalai_Eljahn
12-02-07, 12:13 PM I think my Aasimar character would almost rather be a humanoid. :/

You could argue to restricting it to native outsiders if you wished...in which case said Aasimar character knows exactly two non-templated things she could turn into, and why would she want to be a tiefling? *shrugs*

Query: Can Alter Self grant wings? Say, if cast by a monstrous humanoid to change into an anthropomorphic raven. I really don't know this spell very well...
Nephlite
12-02-07, 01:35 PM I think my Aasimar character would almost rather be a humanoid. :/

You could argue to restricting it to native outsiders if you wished...in which case said Aasimar character knows exactly two non-templated things she could turn into, and why would she want to be a tiefling? *shrugs*

Query: Can Alter Self grant wings? Say, if cast by a monstrous humanoid to change into an anthropomorphic raven. I really don't know this spell very well...

Yes, Humans can turn into Raptorans or Winged Elves to get wings.

So assuming same type, you can as a monstrous (if a monstrous has wings)also.
Draco Strang
12-02-07, 01:51 PM Outsiders are cool and all, but max of 5HD should be limiting enough I would think, expecially when you consider you get almost no special abilities.

Yea, as an 8th level character with an abysmal BAB and spellcasting ability, letting him assume any 5 HD outsider really isn't that gamebreaking....Kuonji's right.

Seriously, what's he get? Not much.

Beware though....if this guy ever gets polymorph, watch out.
The_Shaman
12-02-07, 02:01 PM Hello, been a while.

I've been gaming with the same group for 6 years. One of the players wanted to try something different. I allowed him to play a tiefling. Rog4/Wiz4.

As the others have said, it has its limits: only some abilities, only 1 form per casting, etc. Besides, his build doesn't seem all that optimized, so it shouldn't break the game too hard. If push comes to shove, he has a caster level of only 4; dispeling it should be easy for any spellcaster or trap you whip up. Definitely know its limitations - as others have said, it allows only 1 form per casting and grants only a few traits - generally movement modes, natural attacks, NA and some racial bonuses. It's a great buff, no doubt about it, but it shouldn't be completely insane at that level. Heck, if the player was a full wizard, they could get polymorph - and fix or no fix, it blows alter self out of the water.

But aside from that, it's a great spell for its level, and easily one of the best. However, it's there for the players to use. Make sure they play by the rules and not by what they think it does, and watch. If it proves too much for you to handle, talk to the player or change the environment somewhat. Requiring a check is not a bad solution but introduces a random element that other spells don't have, as well as changing the PC's skill priorities in mid-game - both, imo, can be rather annoying for the player (in effect, you betray their expectation of how the system works) and should only be done if there is no alternative.
MrCustomer
12-02-07, 02:30 PM Alter Self does not confer any special abilities, attack forms, defenses, ability scores or mannerisms of the chosen form. Basically while he can Look like a creature, he still has the same stats and abilities as before.

Some Forms, like the Hell Hound that you listed would actually make him weaker in some senses. For example a Hell Hound cannot cast any spells that need hand geastures, and cannot breath fire or do any special hell hound attacks. Rogue/Wizard is a poor melee combo and going hand to hand in any form is going to get his ass kicked. In essence he is weaker in this form and would be better off using his wizard powers to enhance his Rogue levels (mage armor, invisibility, sneak attack with Scorching Ray, etc)

Essentially, he is using his Wizard half to poorly immitate a Druid's ability to assume animal forms.

Alter Self is a useful level 2 spell for when you want to disguise yourself, Fly with wings (Fly is level 3 spell) Swim with fins, swim underwater with gills (Water Breathing is level 3) climb easier, Cast spells while using weapons by growing extra arms, there are many, many clever uses. But it really is not a Combat Spell like this.
Duvanok
12-02-07, 04:03 PM Thanks for the replies guys, I'll let it ride and see how it plays out. :cool:
Caladors
12-02-07, 04:41 PM OMG you peoples are missing one important thing!
There outsiders native which are very different to normal outsiders.
I would allow him to turn into any outsider native all he want however then the spell isn't even close to over powered!
Cartigan
12-02-07, 05:09 PM OMG you peoples are missing one important thing!
There outsiders native which are very different to normal outsiders.
I would allow him to turn into any outsider native all he want however then the spell isn't even close to over powered!
I was just looking that up and dismissed it - alter self doesn't seem to be that specific. Humanoid encompasses just as many different types as outsider does (look at the Favored Enemy list), but the alter self spell doesn't say you can only transform between humanoids of the same type as you. It just says "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form (such as humanoid or magical beast)."
Grand_Commander13
12-02-07, 05:17 PM Yeah, Alter Self says they must be of the same type. If a Tiefling would be restricted to only Native Outsiders, it would have to read "same type (and subtype where applicable)" by my reading.
Caladors
12-02-07, 05:37 PM OK acording to what i have read in planescape which is my native campagin setting there is a huge ammount of difference however thats out of print and they change things how they like but.

Native outsiders are living creautres.
Other outsiders are more like living embodments of there plane.

Native outsideres must sleep, eat and ect.
Normal outsiders do not.

as for the favoured enemy list native outsiders are listed seprately from lawful, chaotic, evil and good ones.
Cifer
12-02-07, 06:14 PM @Caladors
This still doesn't matter. Alter Self works depending on Type (like Outsider or Humanoid). If it worked depending on Subtype (like Evil, Native or Chaotic), it would say so - this is one of the areas where the rules are relatively specific. The Favored Enemy table has absolutely no bearing on this.
Grand_Commander13
12-02-07, 08:49 PM as for the favoured enemy list native outsiders are listed seprately from lawful, chaotic, evil and good ones.You'll also note that Humanoid (Human) is an entry on the favored enemy list. Combine this with the fact that every other player race has their own entry, your criteria makes the spell useless for any of the typical player races, unless an Elf wishes to turn into a Half-Elf or a Half-Orc wishes to turn into an Orc (or if you just don't want to invest in Disguise).
Pudge_is_cute
12-03-07, 07:05 PM So I can let my small, skinny, cute elf to have a p-nis using this spell in order to annoy the other P.C's am I right? :D

*after 30 minutes*

Yes.. I do think I am right. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duvanok 12-01-07, 10:35 PM	Hello, been a while. I've been gaming with the same group for 6 years. One of the players wanted to try something different. I allowed him to play a tiefling. Rog4/Wiz4. I've always thought Alter Self to be a horribly worded and confusing spell. Now that my player is an Outsider, it seems very overpowered. The spell states that the caster can "assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. . ." The player interprets this to mean that he can assume the form of an outsider (HD permitting of course). Thus, he made a list of all the outsiders that he can "transform" into and last session was running around as a Hell Hound, Visilight, and Xill, among others. Is this right?! Am I missing something here? Should I shut this down? Help!
SilentOne 12-01-07, 10:43 PM	Just remember, while he can look like a great deal of outsiders, he doesn't get most of the fun abilities (such as hell hound's firebreath). Be sure to read through the spell some more and figure out exactly what the tiefling gets from his new form (isn't really much, considering it's a 2nd level spell). Granted, alter self in the hands of outsiders is more powerful than for humanoids, but I don't think the difference is big enough that he could be cracking open your game with the spell.
Talisman 12-01-07, 10:58 PM	This sounds extremely irritating. Too bad you're just the GM, and can't do anything about the RAW... Hey, wait a minute! You're the GM! Nerf it! Nerf it quick! For starters, you might limit ol' Tieflingy to the forms of outsiders he's actually familiar with (has seen or has read detailed descriptions of). A Knowledge (the planes) check would be appropriate here, DC 10 + CR or even 15 + CR. Remember that each casting of alter self allows the caster to assume one alternate form. If he was running around as a hellhound, visilight, xill, and "others," that's a minimum of 5 castings of alter self. It's not like shapechange, where one casting lets you swap forms every round. Keep in mind that alter self does not grant any special abilities, including extraordinary abilities. Also, the caster continues to use his own ability scores...if you've got a 10 Strength, you've got a 10 Strength no matter what form you assume. Using the outsiders you listed, note that: ~A hellhound-form does not grant use of a breath weapon or firey bite, or even immunity to fire or cold vulnerability (neither are "gross physical qualities," nor are they listed in paragraph 4 of the spell description...read paragraph 5). Essentially, this shape grants a +5 NA bonus, 40' movement, a 1d8 bite attack, a few skill bonuses, and the lack of hands. ~Xill-form does not grant implant, improved grab, paralysis, planewalk, SR, or even extra claw attacks (again, paragraph 4). It grants a decent NA bonus, two 1d4 claws, and a speed of 40. ~Visilight-form does not grant charisma drain, gaze, telepathic link, DR, or a fly speed (no wings; flight is clearly an extraordinary ability). No flight means it doesn't even grant the +8 Move Silently bonus, since this is specifically noted as being due to the creature's ability to "float in near silence." This form grants a +7 NA bonus and a 1d6 claw attack...and that's about it. When in doubt, re-read the rules, apply literally, and nit-pick to your heart's content :D BTW, I've always thought that planetouched should be treated as humanoids anyway, which would negate this whole problem.
Some Like It Hot 12-02-07, 11:03 AM	If it's shattering your game it's probably not being used in accordance with the rules. Alter Self is a good spell, not a game breaking one. The most he could do with it is turn into a form with very high natural armor (Dwarf Elder or something like that, I forget the book) so that he's difficult to hit with normal attacks. So yeah, I wouldn't alter the spell itself, I would just make sure that you're applying all the applicable rules. If you are, and it's still disrupting your game, talk to the player out of game and ask that he curb it a bit.
kuonji 12-02-07, 11:25 AM	Outsiders are cool and all, but max of 5HD should be limiting enough I would think, expecially when you consider you get almost no special abilities.
Kalai_Eljahn 12-02-07, 12:13 PM	I think my Aasimar character would almost rather be a humanoid. :/ You could argue to restricting it to native outsiders if you wished...in which case said Aasimar character knows exactly two non-templated things she could turn into, and why would she want to be a tiefling? shrugs Query: Can Alter Self grant wings? Say, if cast by a monstrous humanoid to change into an anthropomorphic raven. I really don't know this spell very well...
Nephlite 12-02-07, 01:35 PM	I think my Aasimar character would almost rather be a humanoid. :/ You could argue to restricting it to native outsiders if you wished...in which case said Aasimar character knows exactly two non-templated things she could turn into, and why would she want to be a tiefling? shrugs Query: Can Alter Self grant wings? Say, if cast by a monstrous humanoid to change into an anthropomorphic raven. I really don't know this spell very well... Yes, Humans can turn into Raptorans or Winged Elves to get wings. So assuming same type, you can as a monstrous (if a monstrous has wings)also.
Draco Strang 12-02-07, 01:51 PM	Outsiders are cool and all, but max of 5HD should be limiting enough I would think, expecially when you consider you get almost no special abilities. Yea, as an 8th level character with an abysmal BAB and spellcasting ability, letting him assume any 5 HD outsider really isn't that gamebreaking....Kuonji's right. Seriously, what's he get? Not much. Beware though....if this guy ever gets polymorph, watch out.
The_Shaman 12-02-07, 02:01 PM	Hello, been a while. I've been gaming with the same group for 6 years. One of the players wanted to try something different. I allowed him to play a tiefling. Rog4/Wiz4. As the others have said, it has its limits: only some abilities, only 1 form per casting, etc. Besides, his build doesn't seem all that optimized, so it shouldn't break the game too hard. If push comes to shove, he has a caster level of only 4; dispeling it should be easy for any spellcaster or trap you whip up. Definitely know its limitations - as others have said, it allows only 1 form per casting and grants only a few traits - generally movement modes, natural attacks, NA and some racial bonuses. It's a great buff, no doubt about it, but it shouldn't be completely insane at that level. Heck, if the player was a full wizard, they could get polymorph - and fix or no fix, it blows alter self out of the water. But aside from that, it's a great spell for its level, and easily one of the best. However, it's there for the players to use. Make sure they play by the rules and not by what they think it does, and watch. If it proves too much for you to handle, talk to the player or change the environment somewhat. Requiring a check is not a bad solution but introduces a random element that other spells don't have, as well as changing the PC's skill priorities in mid-game - both, imo, can be rather annoying for the player (in effect, you betray their expectation of how the system works) and should only be done if there is no alternative.
MrCustomer 12-02-07, 02:30 PM	Alter Self does not confer any special abilities, attack forms, defenses, ability scores or mannerisms of the chosen form. Basically while he can Look like a creature, he still has the same stats and abilities as before. Some Forms, like the Hell Hound that you listed would actually make him weaker in some senses. For example a Hell Hound cannot cast any spells that need hand geastures, and cannot breath fire or do any special hell hound attacks. Rogue/Wizard is a poor melee combo and going hand to hand in any form is going to get his ass kicked. In essence he is weaker in this form and would be better off using his wizard powers to enhance his Rogue levels (mage armor, invisibility, sneak attack with Scorching Ray, etc) Essentially, he is using his Wizard half to poorly immitate a Druid's ability to assume animal forms. Alter Self is a useful level 2 spell for when you want to disguise yourself, Fly with wings (Fly is level 3 spell) Swim with fins, swim underwater with gills (Water Breathing is level 3) climb easier, Cast spells while using weapons by growing extra arms, there are many, many clever uses. But it really is not a Combat Spell like this.
Duvanok 12-02-07, 04:03 PM	Thanks for the replies guys, I'll let it ride and see how it plays out. :cool:
Caladors 12-02-07, 04:41 PM	OMG you peoples are missing one important thing! There outsiders native which are very different to normal outsiders. I would allow him to turn into any outsider native all he want however then the spell isn't even close to over powered!
Cartigan 12-02-07, 05:09 PM	OMG you peoples are missing one important thing! There outsiders native which are very different to normal outsiders. I would allow him to turn into any outsider native all he want however then the spell isn't even close to over powered! I was just looking that up and dismissed it - alter self doesn't seem to be that specific. Humanoid encompasses just as many different types as outsider does (look at the Favored Enemy list), but the alter self spell doesn't say you can only transform between humanoids of the same type as you. It just says "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form (such as humanoid or magical beast)."
Grand_Commander13 12-02-07, 05:17 PM	Yeah, Alter Self says they must be of the same type. If a Tiefling would be restricted to only Native Outsiders, it would have to read "same type (and subtype where applicable)" by my reading.
Caladors 12-02-07, 05:37 PM	OK acording to what i have read in planescape which is my native campagin setting there is a huge ammount of difference however thats out of print and they change things how they like but. Native outsiders are living creautres. Other outsiders are more like living embodments of there plane. Native outsideres must sleep, eat and ect. Normal outsiders do not. as for the favoured enemy list native outsiders are listed seprately from lawful, chaotic, evil and good ones.
Cifer 12-02-07, 06:14 PM	@Caladors This still doesn't matter. Alter Self works depending on Type (like Outsider or Humanoid). If it worked depending on Subtype (like Evil, Native or Chaotic), it would say so - this is one of the areas where the rules are relatively specific. The Favored Enemy table has absolutely no bearing on this.
Grand_Commander13 12-02-07, 08:49 PM	as for the favoured enemy list native outsiders are listed seprately from lawful, chaotic, evil and good ones.You'll also note that Humanoid (Human) is an entry on the favored enemy list. Combine this with the fact that every other player race has their own entry, your criteria makes the spell useless for any of the typical player races, unless an Elf wishes to turn into a Half-Elf or a Half-Orc wishes to turn into an Orc (or if you just don't want to invest in Disguise).
Pudge_is_cute 12-03-07, 07:05 PM	So I can let my small, skinny, cute elf to have a p-nis using this spell in order to annoy the other P.C's am I right? :D after 30 minutes Yes.. I do think I am right. :D