Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magnificat 03-03-04, 09:16 AM	Hi all I need an advice from other DMs. There's a situation in my group that needs some thinking but it seems I cannot come up with something I completely like. Here is a description of the situation. I'm currently running the "Cry Wolf" adventure for a party of 5th level charachters. Of course, the adventure has been upgraded to meet the power this charachter might display during the game. I chose to start with a "slow" adventure because they are not exactly neither brave nor curious though they posess something of both. One of the charachters, a gnome ranger with 42 hp, was not present during the first session but the player showed up last session and I thought to insert the character during an ambush, precisely during the bard's salvation (if you know the adventure, it is the second encounter provided). I thought that it could be great for the others to save also their own mate and consequenlty I presented the scene as if the ranger had just tried to save the bard from the party of orcs (more than a dozen) and was almost slain in the process. I realised that the situation was not possible as the character is too powerful. So, I told the player that his gnome was hit by something on his head from behind before the bard even came into view. He was then indeed rescued by his friends but the player, quite a too much rules-loving little monster, wants me to explain why his character was so easily stopped and why his wolf also disappeared (I want to link the story of Tamris's wolf with his wolf as well but I have to think about it - if you know the adventure you know what I mean). What do you advise me to do now? What could have been so powerful as to reduce the gnome ranger to 0 hit points with a single blow? Any suggestion? Magic? Magic weapon? I might so insert also another villain in this case and turn the situation on my behalf (does this expression exist or have I invented something new? Excuse me, I'm Italian!). Sorry if my writing is not perfect! Let me know! Take care and cheers!
Simi 03-03-04, 09:28 AM	Correct me if I am wrong, but it could have been subduel damage in which he wasn't accually taken down to 0hp. About the wolf, I am assuming it is his follower, unless it changed for 3ed a follower will not alway jump in a fight the person they are following is in. If he does not like that answer explain to him that it was done for the story to get him into the group.
Magnificat 03-03-04, 10:10 AM	Originally posted by Simi Correct me if I am wrong, but it could have been subduel damage in which he wasn't accually taken down to 0hp. About the wolf, I am assuming it is his follower, unless it changed for 3ed a follower will not alway jump in a fight the person they are following is in. If he does not like that answer explain to him that it was done for the story to get him into the group. Thank you for your answer. Actually, I am not sure about subdual damage: I haven't been studying the Player's Handbook 3.5 as I should have done. Ok then, first thing is to check the subdual damage thing. He was not dying though but he was indeed at 0 hit points. I might say to him that it is subdual damage, though it doesn't make a great difference. Is that not so? Second, there's a plot line to consider. Your advice is too straightforward I'm afraid, though it is perfectly logical: the player in question is too smart (in the American sense!) to accept this explanation. The wolf, I am planning, was taken by the villains of the adventure because he, too, has a wonderful skin. What do you say?
Ankalagon 03-03-04, 11:03 AM	An assassin could do it, or poison or, or, or, or You would need to have rolled his dice for him of course for the appro' save. A bit of meta-dm'ing is called for.
Raynard the Black 03-03-04, 11:17 AM	It could have been a critical hit by a rogue/fighter that got the drop on him with high initiative. Easy enough to explain. Massive damage from one strike plus the added Sneak attack damage. It is entirely plausible as a rogue usually has a high dex, could possibly have improved initiative, and normally does significant damage on a critical when sneak attack damage is applied. Using a Greataxe (as orcs are wont to do.) On a crit the axe does (1d12 + 1.5 str (x3)) with a 14 str this would be 3d12 +9 then add 1d6 (or more if higher level rogue) sneak attack damage. Minimum roll is 13 and max damage is 51. Just tell him you rolled high. Hope this helps.
Reguba 03-03-04, 12:04 PM	Damn rules lawyers...Listen, just tell him "I'm the DM, you little arse-hole, and if you don't like that way the story's moving, then get out"
Slider33 03-03-04, 12:27 PM	Yeah, I think you are safe, there are many reasons why this could happen. A rogue doing subdual damage on a sneak attack would probably be the easiest solution. He never saw it coming! If his hp's were already reduced a little bit during the encounter then the better. Or even better, if you rolled a crit hit + sneak attack with a sap or something. That could add up pretty fast, even for a mid-range level rogue. And if the rogue has high strength, you can add that to the damage as well..... It may not have needed a total 42 subdual to get him either... had he taken any damage already? As long as subdual damage surpasses current HP's he goes unconcious. ( I think that's right....) Let's see...what else could you make up.... hit by a magic weapon perhaps? A "special" melee or ranged weapon? You could say a strong orc chucked a huge gnome-sized rock at his head.... Personally, I'd use a rogue... He could have been hiding or invisible from a simple potion he drank before the ambush... Same goes with an assassin, they are perfect for this as well. In 3.0 rules (not sure about 3.5) they can choose to deal a paralyzing blow, in place of their "instant kill" ability. This may work as well. If he continues to complain, you're the authority. Tell him to just drop it and play along. he should be well aware you did him the courtesy of placing him in the game easily. I think you did a great job. It was a good idea, don't let him ruin it. His character wasn't penalized and/or killed or looted when he was knocked unconcious...so it shouldn't matter. The progression of the campaign and the story trumps a meaningless "rule" debate situation in this case. If he ticks you off too much, roll up a mean rogue npc and sneak attack him with a sap, and prove to him how it can happen. Then steal something from him. That will shut him up, and prove that you can throw in anything, anytime, for whatever reason.
Morka 03-03-04, 02:18 PM	Why not the old good spell Sleep? If the character is too high-level (I think he is at level 5...), there is still the Power Word or the Symbol of the same name. And then a little Charm Monster on the wolf companion, and no more wolf!
hiesengard 03-04-04, 01:06 AM	Perhaps your gnomish ranger, didn't manage to spot the annoying little pixie archer defending his ancestral home. The pixie figuring that it wanted a clean job of it, shot him with its wicked little sleep arrow, then just for good measure tagged the snoozing ranger with its horrible memory loss arrow, though at lvl 5 he may be hard pressed to get a heal spell, and even harder pressed to get a wish or miracle. This might even be more plausible if the ranger in question is carrying something of value, as pixies tend to trick stingy pcs out of their wealth :) Anyway all the DCs you might need are on page 236 of the MM. good luck!
Magnificat 03-04-04, 05:04 AM	Guys How may I thank you? I have something to reply to all of you. I'll try to do it later this day as I am currently at work. Take care and thank you!
Autosponge 03-04-04, 09:29 AM	A rogue (maybe 7-9th level) with a decent base strength, magical weapon, and +6 strength gloves. Average hit is around 50 or so. You can probably tone down the magic a little and get away with a 'good' hit. The same rogue can use a scroll of animal control to take the wolf.
Naeron 03-04-04, 10:25 AM	If you want something how about this: A Ranger 1/Rogue 7 with a Merciful +1 Mighty (+4) Longbow and point blank shot. They scored a critical hit from less than 30ft away sneak attacking when hidden in cover in the surprise round. This would do 3d8+18+5d6 nonlethal damage. Thats 29-72 damage with and average of 49 damage. They then used full attack/rapid shot on the wolf and knocked it out as well. For some reason they chose to take the wolf away (maybe they were hired to bring back live wolves to someone). Of course you would not actually need a critical, a full attack (as the NPC has a BAB of +6/+1) would do 1d8+6+5d6 twice so an average of 56 nonlethal damage. It just depends wether you want them downed in a single hit. An NPC of this level is not a massively overpowered at CR 8 for the party level and does not have unreasonable treasure (a +2 equivalent weapon as their main item is within treasure limits).
Arrowhen 03-04-04, 10:55 AM	...the player, quite a too much rules-loving little monster, wants me to explain why his character was so easily stopped Tell him it's none of his business. As a player he only knows what his character knows, and all the character knows is that *something* hit him over the head and knocked him out. If he persists, tell him, "Look, I'm not going to tell you what hit you, but I will tell you this: the *dice* said you were *killed*. I decided to be *nice* and only have you knocked out, but next time I won't be so nice."
Magnificat 03-05-04, 04:34 AM	Hi guys! Of course, I might simply say to the player "go to hell" but I prefer to run a smooth game, with a democracy background that I consider essential for the social environment of the game. Thank you for all your suggestions. Slider33, yours is particularly welcome: a rougue works fine. Besides, the gnome has got a wolf as a companion and the adventure features, funny enough, a wolf skin hunter as a villain. So, I'll work on the rogue thing: I'll have the character followed by the rogue because of his wolf and only when the wolf realised they were being followed, the rogue came into action and did what he is supposed to do. The wolf is actually into the hunter's power and lies with Tamris in the pit or maybe elsewhere. They haven't been hable to kill him yet because they are too worried about Tamris's animal companion, the blue spotted wolf which is the one mention in the adventure's title. The rogue might be rogue5/assassin2, what d'you say? Hiesengard, thank you for your suggestion about the pixie but the idea of a rogue implemented with the plot sounds to me the best way to shut the player up. Morka, maybe magic doens't work fine in this situation. Of course I am tempted to use magic to solve the situation but I don't want the player say that I manage things easily with magic just the run the game the way I want. Ankalagon, Reynard, Autosponge and Naeron: Your suggestion is very similar to Slider33 so I'll stick to it. Guys, again, I am amazed by the quality of your answers, all of you, besides the fact that they might work well with the plot or not. We are going to play this monday 8.30 p. m.: I'll let you know how the game went and what the player will say. Thanks and keep in touch!
Magnificat 03-10-04, 10:01 AM	Hi! So, two days ago we played and no problem whatsoever arised during the game. The gnome ranger accepted the situation, didn't make any fuss about it and cooperated with the other charachters in the rescue of the blue wolf. Thank you all for your kindness in answering me. I know where to ask when I'll have other doubts. Take care!
Utumno 03-11-04, 01:34 PM	Here's the skinny. the palyer does not need to know. When he asks you "What knocked me out?" reply "Something with the requisite amount of power to knock you out." Sometimes you need to take a hardline approach with players, especially the rules lawyer types.