Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grayson7 07-12-06, 03:12 AM	Hello, I am fairly experienced running games but my experience with Dungeons and Dragons is limited. I ran a 2nd Edition game in 1990 that went a couple of months. Last year, I ran a 3.5 Edition game that went for about three months. We had a player that wasn't really handling fantasy very well so we went to d20 Modern. Well, I am back to D&D and I am needing a bit of advice. When I ran my previous game, I just used the three core rulebooks. Only two in the "Complete Series" were out at the time so I didn't use them. I do have a solid grasp of the rules and I do feel comfortable using more content than the three core rulebooks. I am just not sure how much additional content do I want. Listed below is what I intend to use: The three core rulebooks (of course) Complete Warrior Complete Divine Complete Arcane Complete Adventurer Spell Compendium That is eight books and I really don't want to have to lug around any more than that. I am fine with the new base classes in the "Complete Series", except for the Oriental ones, as well as the additional feats. My area of concern are prestige classes. I didn't even allow the ones in the DMG in my previous campaign. I am just ambivalent about allowing them into the campaign. Some, I know I won't allow because they don't even make sense for my campaign (e.g. Red Wizards of Thay in a non-Forgotten Realms campaign). What guidelines do you as a DM have regarding prestige classes? Also, is it me or would there be no point in staying a sorcerer if one takes up a spellcasting prestige class?
Boshi 07-12-06, 03:19 AM	The classes in the Complete books are mostly pretty good and balanced (if anything, most of them are on the weak side). However there's a number of feats you have to watch out for. Shock trooper is especially bad (especially if you combine it with leap attack) and a number of the other tactical feats are a little on the cheesy side (but not that bad) and the Complete Divine is full of cheese (Divine Metamagic specifically and Divine feats generally). As for PrCs, the Complete Divine is all out of wack balance-wise so I'd be very very careful about using stuff out of that. The PrCs from the other three Complete books are mostly pretty good with a few exceptions like Frenzied Berzerker.
Shadowmagyk 07-12-06, 03:29 AM	I find that there is nothing wrong with PrCs, even the Red Wizard (and the Thayan Knight). I would hesitate to allow a PC to use those PrCs, unless the game starts at a high enough level that Planar travel is possible. Then, it would make a little more sense. Of course, that PrC can be changed to suit your campaign world. I also do not have a problem with PrCs that state that one must belong to an organization. I find that anything can be learned by determination of will. How did the first person learn that PrC so that he could teach it to others? I allow anything to be used, even outside source material. Of course, I must approve it, and it must fall into the same power level as WOTC material. However, if the player can incorporate extremely well the material via background, roleplay, campaign specificity, etc., then I will allow it. I do this because, as a DM, I use outside material, and I think that it is only fair that the players be able to do the same. It is all a matter of how comfortable the DM is with the material. It is almost imperative that the DM have an intimate knowledge of the material to be a good DM. Only the players need a working knowlege of the system. I would suggest that you only use the books with which you are extremely comfortable, but do not be afraid to use pieces of other books. If you only need a section of a book, then copy it to your notes so that you dont need to carry all the books to the table. Of course, you can always talk to your players about splitting books between everyone. Have your players buy books that they would like to use, and have them bring those books. This way, you are not carrying all the load - physically and monetarily.
Solian 07-12-06, 05:55 AM	I don't really like Prestige classes in my games. They seem to be unbalanced to me and never fit well with what i want. Some of them i am Happy for my PC's to use, but then some i would hesitate at and some i would just say no to. But it's for you to make up your mind with, ask your players weather they will actaully want to use a Prestige Class, Most Players never do.
Jepeddo 07-12-06, 07:24 AM	I allow any prestige class out of the Complete series and DMG. They seem pretty balanced, and it almost seems like just taking more base class levels would be just as well of if not better. Like an above poster said about the feats, some of them can be a little out there. Leap attack has been taken by most fighters in my games lately, and I've seen a surprisingly good bard/paladin combo with some of the weird combo feats, but it wasn't overpowered.
Leilond 07-12-06, 07:38 AM	I always suggest this things to every master that ask suggestion Only material in the "Player handbook" is available to players All other stuff in ALL THE BOOK ALL OVER THE WORLD must be submitted to my attention. I will analize it, and I will decide to or not to admit that thing to the game (or pheraps admit with some changes) This is valid for: ANY feat you can find ANY class you can find ANY prestige class you can find ANY new spell you can find ANY new rule ANY new mundane object ANY new magical object ANYthing it isn't in the PHB ONLY the Player handbook stuffs are automatic accepted. All the rest only after my positive decision With my group worked PERFECTLY. There is a guy that own manuals that I didn't know the existence of. The first levels he coverd me with request about feats and powers, but after a bit, he stopped, because he found the game fun and stopped to feel the needs to add new (sometimes silly) rules to a game that is funny as is ;)
terrainmonkey 07-12-06, 07:45 AM	okay i'll bite. i would suggest starting with a core only game until you understand the nature of the rules for prestige classes and all the nonsense that comes out of the splat books. i have done away with prestige classes since the PHB II came out because i feel there are enough base classes now to do what you need to do with any character without going to extremes. that way you don't get some of your players wanting to prestige into 4 different classes over 6 levels just to get an insane mixture of feats and special abilities that could be considered game breaking. Approve everything that comes out of these books before pencil is put to paper when a character asks. that's the best way. either that or do away with the prestige format altogether and just stick to core. it hasn't hurt my game at all since i started disallowing PRCs.
Grayson7 07-12-06, 07:52 AM	First of all, thank you all for responding to my post. I really appreciate it. I think that I will allow prestige classes but I will handle it on a prestige class per prestige class basis. As a percaution, I don't think that I will allow any character (PC or NPC) to have more than one prestige class. I think that is a reasonable compromise. Leilond, that is some of the finest advice that I could expect to be given. Still, no one has addressed what I said about the sorcerer. Now, I don't want this to turn into a sorcerer is/is not underpowered thread but it does seem like if prestige classes are allowed, there is no real reason to remain a sorcerer. I do realize that there are story/character reason but there are no real mechanical reasons. Other than being able to swap out the occasional spell and advance his familiar, there really isn't much left to loose. Am I making something out of nothing?
Leilond 07-12-06, 07:53 AM	One more suggestion NO MORE than 3 different class for each character, prestige class included The easy way to creat horrid PC is making them uber multiclasser like warrior/rougue/barbarian/dervish/dancing shadow/assassin Go with "base classes" util a character gain 10th level before allow ANY prestige class. Tell them BEFORE the first session all the limitation - No more than 3 classes, prestige included - No prestige classes until 10th character level - All material outside the PHB is "optional" and must be accepted by me BEFORE you can consider it as a possibility
Grayson7 07-12-06, 07:54 AM	Terrain Monkey, I think we posted almost simultaneously. I didn't see your post before I wrote my reply to the others. I have seen some crazy looking builds with about five to seven different classes. Not to slam anyones gaming style but that really doesn't seem logical or plausible to me.
Missing Minds 07-12-06, 08:05 AM	If you have issues about PrCs my suggestion as a player is to either disallow them or make the players actually role play towards that perticular class. Make them earn it. Granted this is assuming you aren't running just a hack and slash style game. I had a GM that enforced this sort of forward thinking/playing including with languages. In the end, while it was a lot more difficult than just "ok, I'm going to be a ____ now." it make the role playing much more fulfilling.
Horatio Hornblower 07-12-06, 08:30 AM	Still, no one has addressed what I said about the sorcerer. Now, I don't want this to turn into a sorcerer is/is not underpowered thread but it does seem like if prestige classes are allowed, there is no real reason to remain a sorcerer. I do realize that there are story/character reason but there are no real mechanical reasons. Other than being able to swap out the occasional spell and advance his familiar, there really isn't much left to loose. Am I making something out of nothing? Yes. Don't worry about it. If one of your players wants to play a sorcerer and not switch to a PrC then let them. It's their character. You should be more concerned with what PrC a player selects. As others have already said you need to be careful what you allow.
babysamurai 07-12-06, 08:37 AM	Grayson7 - What sort of ability score generation method are you using?
Leilond 07-12-06, 08:37 AM	Still, no one has addressed what I said about the sorcerer. Now, I don't want this to turn into a sorcerer is/is not underpowered thread but it does seem like if prestige classes are allowed, there is no real reason to remain a sorcerer. I do realize that there are story/character reason but there are no real mechanical reasons. Other than being able to swap out the occasional spell and advance his familiar, there really isn't much left to loose. Am I making something out of nothing? Do not worry about it. Sorcerer are a funny class to play, pheraps not incredibly powerfull, but it can be satisfing if the players chose it. One of the party I mastered in the past played a socrerer "specialized" in RAYS. He was an elf with 16 dex, point blank shot and precise shot... it was a great "damage dealer" and it was surely effective in some combat situation. I appreciated it so much... Trust a bit your players and they can make you some nice surprises ;)
Grayson7 07-12-06, 08:45 AM	Well, thanks again everyone. Babysamurai, I plan to use the point buy system in the DMG. It will be 25 or 28 points. I haven't decided yet.
babysamurai 07-12-06, 08:53 AM	Well, thanks again everyone. Babysamurai, I plan to use the point buy system in the DMG. It will be 25 or 28 points. I haven't decided yet. Good man! Go with any Point Buy - 22, 25, 28 or even 32. Whatever you do, don't make the mistake I made, and let my players roll 5d6 drop the lowest two. Well, one player came back with an equivalent 67 Point Buy! Needless to say, in my next campaign it's gonna be a strict PB.
Leilond 07-12-06, 08:55 AM	I suggest 28 25 can be fun but it is a bit not enought for particular classes that require "more good stats", like cleric (Str, Con, Wis, Car and also a bit of Int), paladin (Str, Con, Wis, Cha), monk (Str, Dex, Con, Wis and a bit of Int)
TarlSS 07-12-06, 09:31 AM	Sorceror and Wizard base classes if having a familiar didn't suck so ******* much. Familiar progression is the only thing those classes get to the exclusion of prestiges. Maybe if they simply took away the whole XP penalty thing and let you have disposable familiars. The PETA folks would be up in arms, but wouldn't it just be great for an evil wizard to be callous even to his little pet cats?
babysamurai 07-12-06, 09:36 AM	Sorceror and Wizard base classes if having a familiar didn't suck so ******* much. Familiar progression is the only thing those classes get to the exclusion of prestiges. Maybe if they simply took away the whole XP penalty thing and let you have disposable familiars. The PETA folks would be up in arms, but wouldn't it just be great for an evil wizard to be callous even to his little pet cats? Yeah, I've long thought that familiars are a liability.
starfire311 07-12-06, 10:54 AM	I use PHB, DMG, XPH All 5 complete books, 3 Races books, parts of UA and PHB2 Things you need to watch out for, IMO, these are also things I will not allow in the future. Frenzied Berserker Divine Metamagic Natural Spell Chameleon(in races of Destiny so you don't need to worry about it) Wraith Strike On my watch list Melee weapon mastery/Ranged Weapon mastery from PHB 2 Not becuase I think they are too strong, just don't think they are balanced... if I remove MWM/RWM I will be increasing the effectiveness of the whole WF/WS line and adding a feat of feat chain that will let you use the WF/WS line with other weapons. As for sorceror my fix is I let sorcerors take a minor bloodline form UA for free they also lose the familiar, get eschew materials at 1st level, Still or silent spell at 5th, Improved eschew materials at 10th, at 15th level the feat the choose at 5th level no longer takes a full round action to use and does not increase the level fo the spell, 20th level Metamagic feat of their choice.