Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 12-14-04, 10:04 PM	Edit: I posted again at the end of this thread, with the results of your suggestions, and a new question. Today my group had an impromptu D&D session, as stress-relief for finals week. One hour long, over dinner. I thought it would be stress relief... but I think I did something that might easily cause a TPK. Read on. And skip down to the green section for a summary. The PCs: Rngr 2/Brd 2 (CG) Rog 4 (CN), usually the party's face Monk 4 (LG) Ftr 2/Wiz 1 (NG) All are being played by newbies; and I'm also relatively new at DMing (2 years playing, 3 months DMing). I had no time to prepare; so most of the session was just role-play. Towards the end of the session, though, they decided to return to a nearby dwarven city to return the mayor's stolen axe (a famous magical weapon), for quite a large reward. I decided, on the spur of the moment, that the dwarven city would be under attack by a mid-sized (2000 or so) orcish army; so that the return of the axe (a real morale booster if the weapon were seen being used by the dwarven leaders in the middle of a battle) would be all the more dramatic. So, a few hours out from the city, the PCs encountered a group of four orcish lookouts who were guarding the way to the besieged town; and were told to turn back or be killed. The orcs bragged that they had killed all the dwarves (a bluff that the rogue immediately saw through) and then admitted they had simply driven them back into the mines in the mountainside. The rogue tried: --A bribe (had she gone far enough with it I would have allowed it; but she unfortunately didn't pursue it--maybe her character is too greedy). --A bluff: Said she wanted revenge on one of the dwarves, and had been instructed by her father to bring his head back. The orcs responded that they'd take her to see their leader if they gave up their weapons. The party (especially the ftr/wiz) didn't want to do this. So eventually the rogue (yep, CN) grew tired of these annoying orcs and took a potshot at their leader. This group of orcs would've been no trouble for the party; but of course where there are lookouts, there will be an army; and hearing battle is a pretty easy Listen check. The orcs who weren't on watch (a band of 18, and a couple of them with class levels) didn't take long to come out of the woods and into the fray. 22 orcs is too much for a 4th level party, obviously; especially when they're newbies. Their reaction: We're Gonna Die. Consequently, my litle group of adventurers is not happy. I'm trying to teach them that not everything can be solved through battle; in this case, it would've been a good idea to turn back and then sneak into town, attempt to ally with the orcs then double-cross them, use the wizard's or bard's illusion spells... et cetera. But they didn't. So when we ended the session with four PCs versus 22 orcs--not very good odds. My question: First of all, I'm new to DMing (I would say maybe 7 or 8 sessions now). How could I have played it differently? Did I do the wrong thing, or is this challenge too great for them? These are newbies; but I don't want to kill them, at least not in TPK-fashion. I need to provide a way out for them, probably multiple ways depending on what they do. Any ideas? One of the group mentioned that she had an elixir of love. She wants to feed it to an orcish captain, have him fall in love with her, and see if they can't get out alive that way... how would an orc captain (and his companions) react to having this done to them? (And for that matter, how do you feed an angry orc a love potion?) And, last of all, this army-out-of-nowhere (well, strictly speaking, they came from the mountains to the north, where I've already established that orcs exist) needs a reason to go attacking a dwarven town just out of the blue. Admittedly, orcs don't need much reason to attack anyone; but they do need *some* reason. So, in short: I had my PCs blunder into an orcish army, and now there are four of them versus 22 orcs. Did I do something wrong? How do I help these newbies learn about stealth and subterfuge, rather than going in, weapons raised, and trying to take on an army of orcs single-handed?... without killing them? What interesting motivations can I give the orcs for attacking my dwarven city?
ganda1f 12-14-04, 10:36 PM	You certainly didn't do anything wrong in your situation (quite the oposite in fact), and I certainly understand your need to teach players about cause-effect-and the occasional need to roleplay your way through an explosive situation. If you are feeling generous, you may wish to have another group of adventurers pop out of the woodwork and help them out by casting delaying spells at the Orcs, then high-tailing it out of there. After they reach safety, you could then have this group be somewhat critical of your PC's group: 'What were you thinking? Are you crazy? You ruined our chances of getting to the city from this side! You could have just snuck through like we were doing!' Of course, if you're feeling mean you may wish to let them all die. Regarding Orcs motivation for attacking Dwarves; Perhaps the Orcs are retaking land they believe is theirs? Perhaps their cheiftain has been offered rewards by a BBEG who wants something the Dwarves have?
The Abominable Darkling 12-14-04, 10:55 PM	Well, this certainly is too great a challenge for them; however, the DMG says that 5% of encounters should be overwhelming in nature. Not every fight should be one the PCs can win. Go ahead with your session. If they're smart, they'll split up and run like hell. Some (or all) of the PCs may well die, but you really do need to go ahead with it. If you don't, or if you bail them out, they'll never learn the prudence you want them to. As for orcish motivations: since when do orcs need a reason to attack dwarves? :) It could be a simple territorial dispute. Or perhaps a large scale raid. Maybe somone has united the orcish tribes. This could be an early skirmish in a new large offensive... Anyway, hope that helps!
Dash Branaghan 12-14-04, 11:00 PM	First of all, I'm new to DMing (I would say maybe 7 or 8 sessions now). How could I have played it differently? Did I do the wrong thing, or is this challenge too great for them? I play challenges in similar fashion...the PCs won't always win, and PC stupidity is, as far as I'm concerned, the leading cause of preventable PC death. However, a couple of things that came to mind: Lookouts are generally low level if they have levels at all (first ones in, last ones to pick treasure, they are usually bitter towards the rest of the orcs). If the party rogue has Point Blank shot (assuming by pot shot you meant ranged attack) or was in melee, the rogue would get their sneak attack damage, and the benefits of a surprise round (in which the party rogue would get another sneak attack, assuming she got higher than the orcs in initiative). Short of really crappy rolls, or missing completely, two of the orcs could have been down. Anyway, the point is, the combat may not have lasted long, which means that the "battle" was not something that may have been heard. Especially if there is an encampment of orcs that might be making loud noises (and I'm willing to bet that there would have been). So, one thing I might have done differently is the roll for the party being heard. Personally, I think you did it right, based on what is mentioned. In fact, I would have summoned the rest of the orc party with a whistle before it even came down to negotiations. As for whether this is too tough...nah. I threw a party of average 5th level against 34 goblins and hobgoblins and they survived. Luck has something to do with the factor, but the biggest thing was high AC. These are newbies; but I don't want to kill them, at least not in TPK-fashion. I need to provide a way out for them, probably multiple ways depending on what they do. Any ideas? Give them the combat section of the PHB. Depending on their armor classes, they might be able to hold out (particularly show them the section on Partial and Total Defensive), especially if the fighter has half the brain to start wielding the magic axe. Depending on the powers, the Axe could be "Orc Bane", and recognized by the orcs...also feared by them. They could run at the sight of it. Gandalf's suggestion is a good one. Except one way to do it (which I will credit Dragonlance for) is to have "Dwarven Tunnels," small mounds that connect to dwarven tunnels that lead into the city, but are so cleverly disguised they can't be noticed for what they are. Some dwarves, who have been monitoring the scouts and preparing to kill them (guerilla tactics), see what is going on. They are prepared to leave the PCs to their fate, but if the axe comes into play, they might also help out, then sneak the PCs into the city. One of the group mentioned that she had an elixir of love. She wants to feed it to an orcish captain, have him fall in love with her, and see if they can't get out alive that way... how would an orc captain (and his companions) react to having this done to them? (And for that matter, how do you feed an angry orc a love potion?) You don't. You can allow the player a diplomacy check with massive penalties to attempt to alter the mood of the NPCs, at which point, you can offer the potion with a massive bluff check in the hopes that the orc takes it and uses it (tell him it's a potion of invulnerability...makes him impervious to weapons...the effects last one month, so here, drink it now and let one of your other orcs hit you with a sword). However, there is nothing stopping the orc captain from falling in love with one of his subordinates, especially if he swings that way. But offering the potion now is going to have it smashed to the ground and wasted, or rather, it would in my campaign. And, last of all, this army-out-of-nowhere (well, strictly speaking, they came from the mountains to the north, where I've already established that orcs exist) needs a reason to go attacking a dwarven town just out of the blue. Admittedly, orcs don't need much reason to attack anyone; but they do need *some* reason. It could be stores of weapons or refined metal, consumer goods, a pre-emptive strike since the dwarves were planning to attack and clean out the orcs so they could mine the ore from the mountains and the orc ambassador sent down to the dwarves was killed in a drunken bar fight (in which case the orcs are not really bad guys, and the whole thing is a misunderstanding and the orcs demand the dwarves responsible for the death of their diplomat, who was actually killed by orcs disguised by illusionist magic to appear as dwarves because there is a faction that wants the orcs to war with the dwarves, while the Shaman leader has tried to balance peace instead...well, you get the idea). Dash
deadDMwalking 12-14-04, 11:48 PM	Suggestions above are good. I particularly like Dash's suggestion of Dwarven Tunnels. I was going to suggest it myself, but apparently he beat me to it. 1) The orcs in camp should not have been wearing armor. People don't rest in armor. Trust me. You can lower their AC appropriately. It takes at least 10 rounds to put on any armor. This means the orcs are going to be at a serious disadvantage. 2) If the orcs are wearing armor, make sure they have a top speed of 20, but don't give them really good armor or shields. This will give the party a chance to keep ahead if they try to run. 3) Mention they noticed a defensible position - a narrow ravine just a few hundred yards behind them. Allow them to stack some bonuses. +1 for higher ground. Concealment 20% by standing in a copse of trees a short distance into the ravine..... 4) The orcs that are involved in the camp should not be the most capable combatants. If they were, they would likely be closer to the action. If the orcs thought that they would be able to beat the dwarves at home without their full force there is probably something wrong. Dwarves are supposed to be experts at defense. Orcs aren't really the most accomplished attackers against a well-prepared force. They're generally portrayed as opportunists. Do not put more than 4 levels in a single orc. Probably none should have more than 2 levels. 5) Use NPC classes instead of PC classes. The vast majority of the world is supposed to be NPC classes. These orcs shouldn't be that special. Some of these suggestions may seem less believable in your campaign - if you feel that way, go ahead and slaughter your party. If they seem useful, please, use them. If you don't think they'll be useful, let me know and I'll try to find suggestions that are more suited to your campaign. If these are good, but you'd like more, let me know. Again, I'd be happy to help.
Callista 12-15-04, 04:50 AM	More info: The guards: 3 level 1 warriors, and their leader, a level 1 fighter. Unfortunately, the rogue rolled low on her damage when taking that shot at the leader, so he survived; and the other three characters didn't act that round. For a couple more rounds, orcs were hit but no one went down; and the ranger/bard took a glancing javelin hit (2 damage). The rogue didn't declare a sneak attack; even though she had won initiative. I probably should've told her to add her SA dice, whether she remembered to or not... After I rolled a 20 on the orcs' companions' listen checks (which happened the first round of battle), I gave them 3 rounds to respond and run to the scene. In hindsight, that's probably much too fast a scramble for a bunch of bored orcs; and I really should have had the PCs roll a spot check to notice that the orcs' camp between the trees, about 200 feet away, probably had more orcs in it. That's a pile of mistakes right there, but I don't think the players noticed. Oops. The orcs' reinforcements is a group of 18, with a level 3 fighter, 2 level 1 fighters, and an adept among them. This can be changed, though, because they haven't come into the combat yet. The axe is a dwarven urgrosh. Only the monk (a dwarf) is proficient with it. It does actually have the bane special quality (which I had originally put down as "goblinoids" but could be "orcs" just as well) as well as a +1 enhancement and the Flaming quality (total +3, which is of course way overpowered for the PCs at this level; but then, the axe isn't theirs, and the only one who can use it is firmly LG, has to stay L to keep her monk powers, and will return it at first opportunity. But if she thinks of using it during this battle, the dwarves certainly wouldn't object.) Should I have the orcs capture the players instead? Having that level 3 fighter simply order them to take the PCs prisoner might work; and then they'd have to break their way out of an orc camp... Or I could have them meet dwarven prisoners while in the orc camp, maybe even enough to fight their way out (probably with at least NPC casualties). If so, I sure hope the rogue thinks to hide her lockpicks, or at least a dagger, somewhere inconspicuous; or she'll have to try bluffing her way out. Actually, I really have to educate the girl about the Sleight of Hand skill... it DOES come in handy sometmes, y'know. *sigh* newbie players... (But then you all are probably saying something like, "*sigh* newbie DMs...")
MortalPlague 12-15-04, 05:46 AM	You did good. Really, it's not nearly a hopeless situation. The PCs have plenty of opportunities. And I'd say, if it comes down to it, take em prisoner as you suggested. Then not only do the PCs get to escape, but they also have to steal back their gear- and the axe!
deadDMwalking 12-15-04, 10:01 AM	Since the orcs haven't joined battle yet - have you adjusted them to have no armor? Maybe a shield. Just think about what they did in game terms. The started coming after 3 rounds? They get 6 move equivalent actions. Round 1) Stand up from prone Draw a weapon Round 2) Grab a shield Grab some javelins (quiver, or whatever) Round 3) Move to commanding officer Listen to orders. Round 4) Double move toward the PCs (60 feet) Round 5) Double move toward the PCs (60 feet) Round 6 Double move toward the PCs (60 feet) Round 7 Players are now only 20 feet away - terrain is rough, no charge. Move 20 feet. Make standard attack. Honestly, the group can take these orcs. Remember that they don't have armor. They really just should not. Or, only send 4 or 5 orcs after 4 rounds, and the rest will come after 15 or 20.
Dash Branaghan 12-15-04, 10:06 AM	Okay, so the party of 18 are on their way? Well, as DeadDMWalking pointed out, they would be showing up without armor, unless they took time to don it since no one (at least, no one without the endurance feat) rests in armor. If they do, treat them as exhausted and give them appropriate penalties for this state. If you grant them time to put on armor, then you can bleed them in slowly...some get their armor on faster than the others and start joining combat. Meanwhile the players hopefully have better dice luck, and dispatch the enemy before reinforcements arrive. For the first while, I would, as DM, ensure that bonuses are calculated by you as well as the other characters. Since you are dealing with newbs, you need to be on top of flanking bonuses, bonuses for environment/cover, when SA damage is appropriate etc, and you need to remind them that they are entitled to these bonuses. Players don't always remember, but by patiently reminding them, you make them tactically better for later on. As far as capturing them, the only issue I have with that is the axe. And really, it's not an issue...if I were the orcs, I would use the axe as a symbol to take out the dwarves, or bait them into a stupid attack. But again, it all depends on why the orcs are attacking. Still, I'm not much of one for taking prisoners with orcs...they usually take them short term, then kill and eat them. Nothing tastes better than roast dwarf...except maybe raw elf. So, capturing them is a viable option, but so is slowly reinforcing the orcs. The other advantage of slowly reinforcing them is that spot checks will yield the inevitable, "Oh crap, here come more. We should get out of here" tactical suggestion. Dash
bookwurm 12-15-04, 10:20 AM	A while back i was in a similar situation (but i was the player) bout 4 or 5 lvl 4 players vs. an ambush of about 24 orcs and a half dragom minitour. Yeah, we lost people and got our butts kicked, but a few of us servived. only lost about 2 players. and they can retreat if it becomes to rough, but i really think they can take them.
prawn 12-15-04, 10:37 AM	Why not have the axe be legendary and hated among the orcs? When the monk pulls it out and it glows or flames or whatever, the orcs will recognize it and flee. "O my gods! Its the axe that slew our leader Grunt in one blow! Run for your lives!" At the very least, the party could gain another bluff check, and perhaps time to escape. If they have horses and the Orcs don't, it shouldn't be that hard to get away.
Loopy 12-15-04, 12:16 PM	Why not have the axe be legendary and hated among the orcs? When the monk pulls it out and it glows or flames or whatever, the orcs will recognize it and flee. This is an awesome idea. You might also allow the PCs to be captured when an orc commander shows up because he recognizes the axe. He'll keep them for questioning and take the axe. At night, the encampment is attacked by Dwarves and this is a good chance for the PCs to get their stuff and tell the Dwarves what happened to the axe. Perhaps, in the fray, the PCs could fight the level 5 or 6 commander and get the axe back.
Didge 12-15-04, 03:08 PM	Not that I'm going to add to anything above, as I think Dash and deadDMwalking covered it very well, with additional help from others. I will throw in an idea that hit me as to why the orcs are attacking the city. Perhaps the PC's aren't the only ones who found out about the mayor's axe being missing. Perhaps, since as you say it's a "goblinoid" bane weapon anyways, several gung-ho peasants/townsfolk thought they could get an awesome reward if they could bring back the weapon. Upon being outside the city, they encounter a single orc. They cruely interigate the orc, but cannot kill him, as his friends arrive shortly after he is captured. Seeing this sight causes the orcs to become enraged and they begin attacking the peasants/townsfolk. Of course a few escape and run back to the city. They of course explain to the guard their "version" of what happened, "We were out collecting wood for the winter when we were brutally attacked by a vicious band of orcs, they got poor Jessep, and Issac and we could only watch in horror as they stuck Herndal through the gut! We've got to DO something!" The guard rallies some troops and begins to poke into orc area. The orcs upset that their borders have been infiltrated by armed men launch a full scale battle against the town. Sound good? Use it. :)
Callista 12-16-04, 08:24 PM	Part the Second (In Which We Learn That a Skilled Rogue Can Easily Bluff and Out-Diplomatize Stupid (and not very CHArismatic) Orcs) Okay, so I used some suggestions you folks put out. Very helpful, and thanks. What happened: First I drew out the terrain, which I hadn't bothered to do. I had the road have been cut through a hill with steep (Climb check DC 0 needed) sides. I figured the obvious strategy of somehow blocking the path and running for it, while the orcs were slowed by having to go over or around the hill, might occur to them (they had several things which could've done this; oil and a torch, for example.) At the very least, one or two PCs could hold the path while the rest escaped; or, with some luck and the archers hiding behind the fighters, the group might have actually won against the unarmored newcomers to the battle. This didn't occur to them, though; all they wanted to do was burn the forest. I was nice enough to suggest that this might (would probably) start a forest fire; and though they persisted to the point that I was already turning to the DMG section on forest fires, thankfully they didn't choose to do that. Our rogue decided to quaff her Invisibility potion and leave her friends to their fates. This was very in keeping with her CN character; but of course the player didn't like it very much, since she'd rather there were a game rather than a near-TPK, so as a last ditch effort she attempted more diplomacy. She offered the lead orc (who had been hit by her crossbow bolt) a healing potion (CMW) as a peace offering. Despite the rushed Diplomacy check, she made it (she has a sky-high Charisma...) and the orc, after forcing her to drink half and making sure she did so, pocketed the potion (still suspicious), and told them to drop their weapons and come with him. This time they decided to agree. The rogue's story, as I said, was that she had been told by her dad to bring back a certain dwarf's head as revenge. This is what she told the orcish leader after they were brought to him. The orcish leader had his shaman (cleric/bard) use a Detect Good spell on the party. Only the Rogue didn't glow. So the rest of the party got thrown into some cages along with some dwarven prisoners, and had the chance to make contact with the dwarves. After some chatting, the dwarves asked them if they were willing to help them make an escape attempt that night before the orcs decided to kill and eat anyone; some of the dwarves' houses had cellars connected by tunnel to the caves they used as refuges in times of trouble and/or war, and if they could get to one of the houses, they might escape. They, of course, expected heavy casualties, since they couldn't do anything but bodily bash the cage doors open (the cages are orcish make, not sturdy, but they don't need to be when you're surrounded by thousands of enemies) and fight their way to the nearest such bolt-hole. The party told them that they had the rogue in there chatting with the orc leader (and last they saw her, she still had her backpack with her, though not her weapons, as well as a dagger up her sleeve!... I had done some discreet pointing out of the Sleight of Hand skill to the player, of course.) At this point, I broke from that scene and did some RP with the rogue verus the orcish leader. She kept her story straight, and made some good Diplomacy/Bluff checks. Ironically, most of what she said was the truth: She hung around with the good-aligned party mostly because they made good meat shields and could keep her pockets full of coin; she didn't really care all that much about them; et cetera. The orcish leader believed her with the "sent to get revenge on dwarf" story, and as the session finished (i.e., we were kicked out of the college cafeteria), he had just told her to pick the dwarf she wanted, if he was among the prisoners, and they'd cut off his head and let her have it. The rogue still has her lockpicks, probably because of her insanely good diplomacy rolls and the way the player has of understanding the orcish psyche (+2s on nearly every roll, just for saying things in a way an orc would understand them...). So: Questions. Anyway, if she decides to somehow break her companions out, there'll be a pretty large-scale escape attempt, with possibly forty dwarves, some noncombatants (I mentioned a five year old, just out of infancy for dwarf age), and quite possibly an entire army to hold off while they make the dash to a bolt-hole. How do I handle combat on this scale? If the rogue decides not to break her party out, how does this change things? How do I have the orcs react to her after the escape attempt (which will happen whether or not the rogue picks locks for them)? Best case scenario: The party would be in a dwarven cave complex, with 400 defenders (1/3 noncombatant) attempting to drive off 2000 attackers. With the fact that they're dwarves, and in their own home territory, definitely an even fight. Worst case scenario, of course, is a TPK... which I will try to avoid. I hope. So--more advice? Criticism? Rotten tomatoes?
deadDMwalking 12-16-04, 08:46 PM	Glad they avoided the TPK for now. Suggestions for continuing - 1) Map out the Dwarven stronghold. The most important aspect is limiting the orcs superior numbers. If you make even a cursory study of castle design, you'll get a lot of good ideas. For example, the only entrance to the mines may be lower than the actual mine tunnels. Murder holes can be spaced along the ceiling, allowing all kinds of things to be dumped on the orcs as they try to move through. Narrow passages where only two or three orcs can move through might be a good idea (at least as a last line of defense). Also, the dwarves want to prevent things like battering rams being brought to the gate. Nothing is harder to navigate through than a 90 degree turn. You can't take a 15 foot log around a 5 foot corner. 2) Work out various mechanical traps. 3) Figure out what supplies and possible escape routes might exist for the dwarves. 4) The PCs aren't going to want to watch the whole fight taking place. Have some suggestions for them. For example, they could disguise themselves as orcs and recover the axe (if it is taken from them). This is obviously something dwarves just can't do. You might also want them to assassinate the orc leader. He has to sleep sometime. I'll try to think of some more things... Just remember, you can determine how many die each day and what progress is made. As long as the orcs don't have a whole lot of adamantine mining equipment.