Post/Author/DateTime	Post
eamon 11-03-07, 03:23 PM	It's possible my campaign will see pitched battle, with numerous low-level combatants on both sides (say, hundreds or perhaps even thousands). Do you have suggestions for smart low-level or non-magical tactics? Longer explanation: In such a situation, what's to prevent a few medium level arcane casters with knowledge of fireball or similar spells from completely dominating the battlefield? So what I'm asking is how to most believably portray such a scene, tactically (I'm not going to play out every roll, of course, but it would be nice to come up with a battle flow which might have occurred if I had; something realistic) In a realistic battle, I'd expect both sides (which have limited access to casters of levels up to 10th) to expect and mitigate area-effect damage as much as possible, but they don't have the resources to equip foot soldiers with expensive items en-masse, so they'll inevitably take a few bad hits. So what would D&D warfare look like? How can you avoid giving your enemy easy targets? Are there a bunch of smart lowlevel magic tricks you could imagine for troop transport, information dispersal, scouting or other crucial logistic tasks (which we would nowadays use technology for?)
Axiomatic_vampire 11-03-07, 03:42 PM	Sending lvl1 warriors against an army with lvl10 wizards would be like storming machine gun nests. Massive casualties and the attack would only succeed through sheer numbers overwhelming the defenders. I can't see any army doing that unless they had massive troops to spend. Are you thinking of armies in which all the combatants are leveled characters, or is it just, as I said, lvl1 warriors composing the bulk of troops, and a few high level characters supplementing the army? If so, I'd say any wizards on the attacking side might focus on counterspelling those area affect spells that would wipe out large chunks of soldiers. The soldiers would spread out, leave enough space between them to make a fireball unattractive (or less attractive). Defending wizards would very likely use a lot of battlefield control type spells, walls and such, to disrupt approaching formations. Cut off reinforcements, divide the enemy to be destroyed piecemeal, that sort of thing. Now that I'm thinking about it, cloudkill would be a *****. No wizard with access to it would leave that one unprepared. Troops would have to be trained to recognize and run out of the way of certain effects. Some crossclass ranks in spellcraft might be appropriate for the rank and file. It seems likely that magical recognition and defense would be a highly important part of D&D bootcamp.
mackerelses 11-03-07, 03:49 PM	Antimagic fields, from scrolls probably, since most battle wouldn't last longer than two hours, recasts wouldn't be needed, items giving antimagic field would also probably be issued to all officers, both to protect most troops and prevent scry-and-die tactics.
CryoSilver 11-03-07, 03:53 PM	Here's a good question: how many wizards are being fielded? By the tables in the DMG, wizards above level 5 or so are fairly rare. Wands of fireball would not, but any of the higher level spells would be pretty rare. An army would be lucky to field half a dozen wizards over level 10, though those wizards would be absolutely devastating. The entire battle would probably revolve around neutralizing them, with most troops devoted to defending their respective wizards. Good tactics for fighting spellcasters include tower shields (cover from area effects), loose formations (to minimize damage), assassins to kill them before the fight even begins, (obviously) your own spellcasters, trenches (more cover) and hit and run (make them waste spells). Honestly though, I think D&D warfare would be more about killing wizards before the fight started more than anything else. Armies would hire adventurers (or maintain their own elite mage-killers) to assassinate spellcasters before engaging the enemy. Nations with powerful spellcasters (and the means to protect them) would be the equivalent of modern nations with nuclear weapons in terms of clout. I guess a good modern analogy would be sending your spies into an enemy nation and sabotaging their nuclear missile silos and aircraft carriers before you launch your attack.
temparus2000 11-03-07, 03:57 PM	people with actual character classes should make up no more than 1% of any army, unless you are playing in a highly powered world. They are simply to valuable to send into battle to die. Most people with character class levels would be spies, shock troops, etc. From your OP, it sounds like you plan on having armies comprised entirely of chracter class combatants. In that case, as with any battle in D+D, the spellcasters will own the fighters pretty much no matter what they do. antimagic scrolls would be so infeasably expensive in a mass-combat scale that any nation would be better off losing the war than plunging their economy into that much debt.
temparus2000 11-03-07, 04:03 PM	Honestly though, I think D&D warfare would be more about killing wizards before the fight started more than anything else. Armies would hire adventurers (or maintain their own elite mage-killers) to assassinate spellcasters before engaging the enemy. Nations with powerful spellcasters (and the means to protect them) would be the equivalent of modern nations with nuclear weapons in terms of clout. I guess a good modern analogy would be sending your spies into an enemy nation and sabotaging their nuclear missile silos and aircraft carriers before you launch your attack. I agree with this completely. No sensible general would launch an assault against a force with even a handful of arcane casters, unless they had their own to counter their spells. in most cases, the opposing wizards wouldn't even NEED an army to back them up. Teleport in to long range, fireball, teleport out. Repeat. Just 4 wizards doing that once every day for a week (while the enemy is marching) would take out thousands of enemy troops.
CryoSilver 11-03-07, 04:10 PM	One spell makes it nearly impossible to kill wizards with normal troops without hacking through all the enemy soldiers first: Wind Wall. Wind Wall totally negates normal ranged weaponry, and Protection from Arrows will negate the odd ballista bolt that gets through.
mackerelses 11-03-07, 04:59 PM	antimagic scrolls would be so infeasably expensive in a mass-combat scale that any nation would be better off losing the war than plunging their economy into that much debt. While this is true, chances are that the antimagic fields would be laid down on teams sent in to take out the enemy's casters, this would reduce the number of scrolls needed drastically, and to clarify, relatively few of the officers would be equipped with antimagic fields. As it has been commented before, most of the casters on both sides would be focused on battlefield control spells and probably creative combinations of wind wall and cloudkill to minimize injury to friendly troops and maximize casualities to enemy troops, respectively.
Nickpire84 11-03-07, 05:44 PM	Most higher level PC's (5+) are likely to be "special forces" and assigned to specific missions rather than just put on the line. Failing that, armies would also move to minimize casualties from area effects such as training their troops to spread out once a fireball goes off. Combine that with tower shields and casualties would drop signifigantly. As some of the other posters have said too, if one side is lobbing fireballs at the other, the other side is going to have a magical counterattack or a group of "mage killers" to counter. Otherwise is quickly becomes a one sided battle and no commander worth half his salt would march into those odds.
Kitep 11-03-07, 05:47 PM	Just thought I'd throw out that a long bow has a max range of 1000 feet. A 10th level wizard's fireball maxes out at 800 feet (820 feet if you include AoE). Of course, you'll have a -999 to your spot check at that 1000 feet, so I'd include a 50% miss chance :) Are the 2 armies meeting on a plain, or is it a defend the fortress situation? Do you know the general make-up of the other side? Does one or both armies have time to prepare or is it a chance meeting? Eg, can one side dig a bunch of pits & trenches because they know an army might come along one day? Or do they only have like a 10-minute warning, so they can get some buff spells going? Or is it *bam*, you're in battle? Wasn't there a 3.0 supplement that talked about armies? I'm thinking it was Birthright, but I'm not sure. I'd throw in some guard dogs to "spot" invisible opponents. Flyers are the bomb - literally!
Andorxor 11-03-07, 05:56 PM	Some Non-magical tactics: Smoke and attacks at night What the wizards can't see they can't target False targets A spell casted at one man and 10 weak horses with dummys is one spell less that can be cast at the real cavalry Spread the soldiers Less targets in area effects == More spells needed to take out the army Big thick armored wood wall on wheels pushed by oxes The wizards must first remove the walls before they can attack the troops behind the cover.Some can have no troops behind them to create more false targets Hide your troops before the attack That forces the wizards to spend some slots on divinations to keeps track on your army
okpokalypse 11-03-07, 06:41 PM	If you're talking about mass combat vs. PC Wizards, you could also use the Mob rules, so that up to 100 NPCs count as one unit. Having 10 Mobs is muhc easier than running 1,000 L1 Warriors.
emanuelfaust 11-03-07, 06:57 PM	I think the biggest factor is the economies of both sides. Even assuming a large kingdom, high level characters are the exception not the norm. So lets say an army has 100,000 soldiers. Most of these will be simple 1st level warriors, the rank and file. When I say most I mean all but about 1,000 and that 1,000 is being INCREDIBLY generous. Then you have various second level characters acting as unit leaders, 3rd-5th level lieutenants, 5th-7th commanders, etc. Now assume one or two specialist units, PC level units that are in charge of specific tasks. That leaves what, 50 casters or so? Most of these will be 3rd level or below. No fireballs, no cloudkill, no huge AoE spells that decimate armies in advance for these guys. No these are utility casters. These are the casters you have casting Fog Cloud and such to hamper the enemy however they can. That leaves about 5 casters. Admittedly even one 5th level or above wizard can drastically change the course of a battle if used properly, but that is why both sides have the strike teams mentioned above. Please remember that high level wizards demand high level pay. Any army that chooses to field a dozen level 10 wizards is going to pay for it heavily. And even then, those dozen wizards are probably what the PCs are hunting in this way, since they have thwarted the PCs side so often through the use of things like Cloudkill. Last but certainly not least, remember what it says in the DMs guide. I don't remember exactly where, but it essentially tells you that because the whole world has magic, they all use it. The general has magic items that prevent his position from being scryed because it just makes sense for the general to have invested in it. The unit commanders probably have ranks in Use Magic Device so that they can use a scroll or wand if the battle calls for it. All in all, casters change the face of warfare. This is true. But unless you are playing in a world where magic is practically unheard of, both sides have a lot of advisors thinking on the very problems you are thinking of and how to solve them. Either that or they get conquered for being stupid. :eek:
Alexeduardo 11-03-07, 08:34 PM	I believe heroes of battle answers this question
CryoSilver 11-03-07, 10:38 PM	Most of these will be 3rd level or below. No fireballs, no cloudkill, no huge AoE spells that decimate armies in advance for these guys. No these are utility casters. These are the casters you have casting Fog Cloud and such to hamper the enemy however they can. But even a 1st level wizard can use a wand of fireball and simulate being 5th level in terms of blasting power. That leaves about 5 casters. Admittedly even one 5th level or above wizard can drastically change the course of a battle if used properly, but that is why both sides have the strike teams mentioned above. Please remember that high level wizards demand high level pay. Cruise missiles and whatnot are also incredibly expensive, but war is never cheap. Even a simple Hellfire Missile costs over 20 grand (almost a year's wage for the average American) but that doesn't stop the military from using hundreds of them. The cost of hiring a dozen high level casters is well worth it in the long run, because the cost of losing the war is so much higher.
emanuelfaust 11-04-07, 12:18 AM	While that is all true you also have to remember three things. One, I said this all depended on how rich a country we are talking about. The US uses cruise missles worth that much but most countries cannot afford to spend that much on a weapon. Hell we can't, we just do anyway. A smaller country couldn't even think of it. Second, while the investment is worth it they country involved also has to find all these high level casters and outbid their opponent and any neutral parties who want to stay protected plus a great many who don't care enough to get involved. Third while a Wand of Fireball would make a 1st level caster into a nuke, he'd still be a glass shell. A warrior would cleave him in two and another caster could kill him with a lucky magic missle. A higher level wizard has the proper protective spells a lower one would not have access too. unless we are outfitting all low level casters with wands of fireballs, potions of barkskin, and the like...plus all the high level casters to make them effectively. In which case the country in question is rich enough to win through sheer money spent at the entire point is moot. :P
CryoSilver 11-04-07, 12:55 AM	Well, magic missile has a very short range, so if there's a lot of cannon fodder between the low level mages, they'll basically be blasting each other with only long range spells.
Kitep 11-04-07, 01:04 AM	Third while a Wand of Fireball would make a 1st level caster into a nuke, he'd still be a glass shell. A warrior would cleave him in two and another caster could kill him with a lucky magic missle. True, but they would have to reach the wizard first. A fireball wand can shoot 600 feet. Cleave is melee. Magic missile is 30 feet. My money's on the wand. :) OTOH, a wand of fireballs costs 11,250 gp. A mercenary costs 2 sp/day. Call it 1gp, because it's short term and hazardous. Give 'em all staffs (free) and charge the mage. Many will die, but it only takes a few to get through. Hmmm, the OP said each side would have 100s, maybe 1000s of 1st level warriors. A merc army of 11,250 would definately sway things in my favor :dancin: Of course the army would be outfitted and my mercs wouldn't, but still....
Lokathor 11-04-07, 04:32 AM	Just thought I'd throw out that a long bow has a max range of 1000 feet. A 10th level wizard's fireball maxes out at 800 feet (820 feet if you include AoE). Of course, you'll have a -999 to your spot check at that 1000 feet, so I'd include a 50% miss chance No, if the caster has an 800ft max range from caster level or for whatever reason, and then he centers the fireball 800ft away, he just loses half his fireball. Check the rules on spell ranges in the PHB again carefully. As for the -1 per 10ft rule.. I've always considered it DnD's built in version of "draw distance".
eamon 11-04-07, 06:05 AM	Last but certainly not least, remember what it says in the DMs guide. I don't remember exactly where, but it essentially tells you that because the whole world has magic, they all use it. The general has magic items that prevent his position from being scryed because it just makes sense for the general to have invested in it. The unit commanders probably have ranks in Use Magic Device so that they can use a scroll or wand if the battle calls for it. All in all, casters change the face of warfare. This is true. But unless you are playing in a world where magic is practically unheard of, both sides have a lot of advisors thinking on the very problems you are thinking of and how to solve them. Either that or they get conquered for being stupid. :eek: Exactly! And I was using you as my advisors. To make a better game it's great to have the armies realistically use good tactics to prevent casters from dominating everything. There's only so much you can do, and a wizard with wand of fireballs is likely to do a lot of damage, but maybe good tactics can limit the damage somewhat, or increase the risk to the caster, or whatnot!
eamon 11-04-07, 07:57 AM	Interesting idea's all! I am indeed playing in a high-powered world, as temparus2000 suspected. Basically about +2CR above normal, which I generally implement by leaving wealth the same but adding 3-4HD (and then I eyeball the result, since I don't trust the DMG guidelines for advancement by level (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=885205)). However, Fireball is still well out of reach of the troop masses. It's a little more common, but troops have a few more HP so it mostly balances - and I'm mostly interested in general tactics anyhow. Kitep wondered about the situation the battle will take place in. Well, I'm DM-ing the Red (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20060210a) Hand (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/953857400) of (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=642066) Doom (http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2886231)campaign (modified for higher levels and the Eberron setting, amongst other things). It's the Battle for Brindol, which means the attacking hobgoblin horde knows must cross open fields (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rhod_maps/95685.jpg) to reach the streets of Brindol (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rhod_maps/95693.jpg), which lies adjacent to a river. The attackers, having planned this for months, will know the strengths and weaknesses of the defenders, and probably outnumber them. The defenders have more sketchy information, and have had limited time to cope with the huge influx of refugees and the impending attack. They do know roughly when the attack is coming, since the horde can't really hide it's approach, but they don't know an exact timetable. I expect a quick battle in front of the walls in which the horde tries to swarm the defenders and use its dragons, chimeras, wyverns, giants, manticores, bonedrinkers, ghosts, tiamat's spawn and whatnot to keep the defenders busy until the true masses of troops (the goblinoids) get into the walls. Then it's a street-by-street battle of attrition. It's a great module.mackerelses suggested anti-magic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm). That's a 6th level spell, 11th caster level minimum, and it won't be a standard issue. A scroll is 1650gp, and you need a caster level DC 12 check to use it. It might be an interesting, expensive novelty tactic in special circumstances, but it's price takes it out of the "obviously good" tactics. However, the concept is good - - I think I'll use Silence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm) instead - it's a 2nd level cleric spell, with Long Range (yay!) and I can have a bunch of clerics have it readied against the first sign of casting. That way the clerics have something useful to do before the battle joins in truth and they basically become front-line healers. Hit and run tactics using Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) are similarly expensive, and risky for the necessarily high-level caster. It's not going to be a recurring event, but is a good idea for a one-off demoralizing tactic, thx :evillaugh. I don't expect much assassination going on, but you never know, and the attackers will certainly try (the defenders are really sneaky, so that might not be so simple...). However, it's not going to be easy to assassinate high-level wizards in a busy town, esp. not once they expect it. Battlefield tactics that sound good&simple: Tower shields - note that these won't help against fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm)s much because they "spread (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spread)", though still good. Smoke, Attacking at night, Fog Cloud, Obscuring mist - great ideas, and I'll try em all! Diversions, Illusions - in similar vein, good ideas. You only need to confuse the casters for a while until the battle is truly joined anyhow, and anything that buys time is valuable. Sneaking as close as possible - again, reducing the time that the army is exposed. Not really easy though. Mobile Walls, Tanks, or other cover - definitely a good idea. That also means the opposing sides will need siege engines :) Trenches, Magical recognition training - sound useful, though they won't fit in my campaign so much (since it's an attack the walled-town kinda battle, and the defenders don't have much time to train their troops, though the attackers will have "recognizing magic" training). Aerial troops - The attackers have em, but I'm not sure how the defenders can get this. Maybe a few trained griffons, dire bats, giant owls and the like.
Vharuck 11-04-07, 02:00 PM	Let's take a look at what a 1st level wizard or sorcerer could do in a battle: 0 Level Spells Message- Simple but priceless in a large combat situation. Commands are instantaneous and understood. Also it can't be intercepted easily (or at all?). 1st level Spells Alarm- Great for securing the perimeter at night. More reliable than soldiers. Grease- Perfect for ambushes. Force the enemy into a choke point, have the wizard cast grease, then let archers rain arrows down upon the helpless fools. Obscuring Mist- Use this to beat hasty and safe retreats. Burning Hands- Like the flamethrowers of WWI and WWII, this isn't to be primarily used on opponents, but instead objects. Nothing like destorying all the general's plans in one instant by torching his tent and everything in it. Silent Image- The possibilities are endless. Even just creating a huge image of your nation's banner floating above the battlefield to inspire your troops is worth it. Enlarge Person- Though an easier target for archers, a warrior with a reach weapon and this baby enchanting him will go to town on enemy soldiers. Give him Combat Reflexes and Cleave and you got yourself a machine of death.
Legdiwena 11-04-07, 02:15 PM	Ready action to scatter, also look in CWar, it talks about this.
Cromag 11-04-07, 03:36 PM	Sorc/Wiz magic isn't the only magic to keep in mind for instance Druids * Calm Animals: Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals. This spell soothes and quiets animals, rendering them docile and harmless. -for instance war horses * Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5). -Battle triage * Detect Snares and Pits: Reveals natural or primitive traps. -find any traps left by the previous occupying force * Entangle: Plants entangle everyone in 40-ft.-radius. -Will crush any sort of charge with only a few of these it can completely trap/block off an army to be slaughtered by ranged weapons. * Faerie Fire: Outlines subjects with light, canceling blur, concealment, and the like. -Were you looking for the commander? Now you can't lose him! * Goodberry: 2d4 berries each cure 1 hp (max 8 hp/24 hours). -also known as automatically stabilize 2d4 soldiers, with a decent level Druid (or a few of them) you can have a huge number of these distributed throughout the army and drastically cut down on losses. * Jump: Subject gets bonus on Jump checks. Did the enemy setup a blockade? cast this on a few warhorses and have them -jump- over for either an instant flank, or a clear charge on the commanders in the back. * Longstrider: Your speed increases by 10 ft. -who couldn't use more speed in a battle * Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you. -taking away information and visibility from your enemies is always beneficial * Pass without Trace: One subject/level leaves no tracks. -spies that can't be tracked * Speak with Animals: You can communicate with animals. - turn every bird in the area into a scout for your army And that's just first level spells Fields of blood is a very good D20 resource that deals with combat on huge levels, the actual miniature combat movement system isn't great, but the information on spell usage in the setting is fantastic with information the OGL D&D info.
GoriceXII 11-04-07, 07:16 PM	Some good points made in the last post. The pcs in my game use things like obscuring mist, goodberry, entangle and so on on a regular basis to give themselves a tactical edge when doing ambushes or defensive action. Also you can more or less do modern warfare with magic. For instance you could do just about any WWI, WWII, Vietnam or Modern era type of action and substitute magic for the technology. There are long and short range communications, camouflage, anti-communications, psychological warfare, disease and chemical warfare, artillery, rockets, snipers, you name it. So for instance let's say a 4th-6th level wizard with a group stocks up on big bang type offensive spells, some communication and detection spells. He's really become the teams heavy weapon specialist and communications specialist rolled into one. The cleric might be an obvious healer but in fact could also be a combat engineer too with sufficient detection spells and also an intelligence specialist with divinination if that is used. The wizard's familiar is a forward observer while the ranger is scout and possibly in a dual role a sniper. The Fighter and the Barbarian are infantry--the rogue could be just about anything but let's say in this instance another combat engineer and scout in dual role. The bard may seem like morale is her main focus but in fact she is also vital for intelligence. That's a special ops type player team. Players though can also be command groups at higher levels--bear in mind that in the typical D&D milieu that leading from the front can be very important to the morale of the troops, who might like to know genuine heroes are leading them. Then there's the main force. A lot of good ideas have been put forth above. In my Stalingrad D&D style thread I got lots of good ideas for this, it was very helpful to me. If you can find it I recommend it.
Dravda 11-04-07, 11:33 PM	A few things: 1) Whoever recommended Heroes of Battle was spot-on. If you are thinking about running a war campaign, buy the book. It has SO much good stuff. Complete Warrior offers half-***ed tips on how to run wars. Heroes of Battle gives rules, suggestions, guidelines, samples, magic items, prestige classes, ready-made soldiers, and MUCH more. 2) I heard this somewhere, and it's good to think about: low-level sorcerer with all buffs and defense spells. Give him a couple scrolls of fireball and a wand of magic missile, and you have a machine gunner with a rocket launcher. 3) Flyers DO own. Giant eagles dropping rocks, dragons torching enemy lines, and erinyes clouding the skies with their arrows are all things that change the shape of the battlefield. 4) Here's something to consider when "purchasing" the army: digging through the Ask Wizards archives before they switched the site over, there was a dollar-to-gold piece ratio. They claimed that a gold piece is worth $75! That makes a silver piece $7.50 and a copper $.75. It makes sense if you think about it from a "gold-rush" perspective, where demand is high and supply is low. The PHB's explanation that only adventurers deal in gold suddenly makes a lot more sense, as well. I don't know how much modern nations spend on each soldier, but knowing that would help when you're equipping the rank-and-file. 5) You can think of magic-users as artillery. Very expensive, deadly when prepared, but vulnerable at close range. Hope this stuff helps. -Count Dravda
CryoSilver 11-04-07, 11:37 PM	Mid to high level casters are less like artillery than they are like... well, there is nothing to compare them to. They're more like invincible death-factories, anyways.
emanuelfaust 11-05-07, 12:41 AM	Gotta give it up to Cromag, I didn't think about some of those spells when I belittled low level casters. Specifically Communicate with Animals. Though from that perspective, a bunch of low level druids or mid level rangers with Hawk, Raven, etc animal companions become a recon force. On the flip side, such things are vulnerable to archers. :weep: What I really mean is that when it comes down to it, spellcasting is both an expensive and escalatingly difficult service to purchase. Sure, a low level wizard might be willing to do things like Message or Enlarge person for a reasonable price, but they are limited as to how often they can do so. That and as you get higher and higher in spell level, both the prices and the availability of spellcasting goes up. After all, how many of those first level wizards SURVIVE the battle when they run out of spells? I admit that magic becomes the equivalent of high tech. Flying units with Greater Invisibility are stealth bombers for crying out loud. But it gets prohibitive. Can you afford to hire a 12th level wizard to help capture the one objective? I guarentee he isn't signing on for the whole war without a HUGE payment. Even if you can afford it, what if the enemy sees it and retreats? Withdraws to a more heavily fortified position? Withdraws to a place they have their OWN spellcasters prepping? The offensive side probably can't afford to go flat broke during the war. The defensive side can't either, because what if they win? Sure you can afford to go all out against the army of hobgoblins trying to invade, but can you do the same when a neighboring country does? What if they withdraw after you bankrupt the country defending it, leaving them to just buy you out because of faulty intelligence? Actually you know what, I think I'm going to do that last one. The PCs are hired to help defend a country at a high price then it gets conquered by one guy with an economics degree instead. :smirk: And yes, I stole that idea from the Nodwick comic with the Economics major kobold.
GoriceXII 11-05-07, 01:27 AM	Higher level wizards though as far as I can see would either be a major faction leading a side in a war or else would be the equivalent of a powerful alliance in their own right. So would clerics--especially because they would probably have a bunch of lesser clerics along with them. One nice thing about having mid to high wizards as well is that they can summon expendable shock troops.
Kitep 11-05-07, 04:06 AM	If this is against an unwalled city, then I suggest making an improptu wall. Board up all 1st level windows and doors. Blockup all roads and entry ways into the city. Not as effective as a real wall, but it should slow the attackers for an extra round or two. Then once inside the city, the defenders can snipe from the top of buildings while the attackers work their way thru locked doors.
Tenadros 11-05-07, 03:10 PM	I would suggest comparing the war tech level more to Napoleonic or Civil War than to WWII or future. A mid level wiz. is crazy powerful and can easily eliminate whole squads at a time. However when you are dealing with literally hundreds of thousands of troops on the field at a time wizards become less effective then a thousand good longbowmen. Figure the rates of fire. I can hire a guy that can cast five fireballs and then he is swarmed by the other ten thousand men that he was shooting at. Or I can hire how many thousands of archers that fire (with training) two shots per round at a longer range and can keep up an almost constant rate of fire for hours at a time. Wizards should be treated like cannon. Certainly they changed the face of warfare. But they did not eliminate warfare. The light brigade took the artillery during the crimean. Wellesly's troops took the artillery during the Indian wars. Read some Bernard Cornwell for ideas on how to do it. Properly trained infantry can withstand heavy cannon fire and practically speaking there is no difference between the two. The only difference is that cannons don't stop firing and wizards do. The best thing to do is setup military budgets for you armys. How many millions do they have to spend? If they have maxed out the rational population for pikemen for defense, longbowmen for artillery, and knights for cleanup detail and still have several hundred thousand to spend on wizards, then go for it. But honestly, give me the same money and I can put together a nonmagical army that can take out a magical one in straight combat. It isn't that hard if you are assuming low to mid level casters. It becomes a question of your general's ability and your armies training. Poorly Put Marlborough or Wellesly on the field with a nonmagical army and they will find a way to win. Likewise, poorly trained troops will panic during a fireball onslaught; properly trained ones will press on and take the position. Now obviously if you have access to a theoretically unlimited number of Elminsters willing to work for you as artillery peices, then you own the world congratulations. But as long as we're doing that buy a hundred thousand Mongolian Cavalry and you're good.
Outsider Subtype 11-05-07, 03:54 PM	Honestly, this is one of those fundamental questions that DMs should answer before they start playing. How this works in a particular DM's world will help them set a tone for that world. Here are some possibilities: SPECIAL FORCES: I think this is the default D&D take on this. High-level spellcasters are rare enough to be used only for special missions. During a typical battle, an army's mages might try to seize a key position or "scry and die" the opposing headquarters. Lower level casters are more common, and perhaps each company will have a cleric for combat healing and a mage for buffs and firepower. EQUAL AND OPPOSING FORCES: Some of the set-piece battles in the Dragonlance books are described in this way. The good guys and bad guys have roughly equal numbers of mages of roughly equal power, and they coordinate their efforts to cancel the efforts of the other side's mages. There are lots of special effects (static electricity, changes in lighting and the weather) but all the counterspelling means magic doesn't have much effect on the actual battle. MAGIC=TECH: See the Darkness series by Harry Turtledove. Armies train everyone to have some ranks in Use Magic Device and wands of magic missile are standard issue to every front-line trooper. Magic items are mass produced as part of a nation's industrial economy. Dragons are bred and stabled and dragon-riders are a specialized branch of the armed forces. Likewise with whales and kraken for the oceans. Mid-level wizards might make liberal use of the Mount spell to form "armored divisions". High-level mages are used for special missions and theoretical research, perhaps an arcane "Manhattan Project". LOW MAGIC: Casters are rare enough and low powered enough that standard medieval battle rules apply. If in a battle, casters will only affect their immediate area.
Jarsallen 11-05-07, 04:32 PM	Wizards aren't fundamentally different from artillery in the early age of canon warfare. In that regard you can look at how real world armies dealt with canons and the like. The difference between an artillery barrage filling an area with explosions and shrapnel and a wizard filling an area with fireballs, cloudkill, and other AoE spells is negligible. Of course it's hard to say what effect they have on the battlefield without knowing the sides- if there are 10,000 soldiers on one side and 10,000 soldiers and a 10th level mage on the other, then the side with the mage has an advantage but not a meaningful one. With maybe 10 effective area of effect spells level 3 or higher, there's really not much he can do against that volume of people. In that case I think the attacking army just walks into the fireballs and cloudkills and loses maybe a couple hundred people, and they hope to do better in the hand to hand fighting. On the other hand, if it's 1,000 versus 1,000 and a 10th level mage, the balance is tipped pretty heavily in the mage's side. So it's all about scale. I'd only say this- don't overestimate the effectiveness of magic against huge numbers of people. A fireball is largely wasted against a gaggle of 1st level warriors (why do 10d6 to people with 10 hitpoints?), and isn't an efficient use of a spell slot. Cloudkill is great, but the 10th level wizard only has 2-3 of them, and it moves at 10 ft a round and it's a 20ft radius- not the most effective way to run down a formation of troops, but good for herding people. Mostly I think magicians on both sides start by targeting each other. If both sides have a couple of mid-level wizards and a couple of high level wizards, I think those wizards are prepping things like baleful polymorph, or feeblemind in order to knock out the opposing army's spellcasters. A healthy prep of dispel magics also are likely memorized as well. A few fireballs might be used to break charges or the like, but I imagine against a large army the wizards and spellcasters would be best served by assassinating/dominating important figures on the battlefield, and less burning spell slots to kill mooks. my 2 cents.
Sinis 11-05-07, 06:05 PM	Readied counterspells will stop most of the arcane carnage if both sides are equally equipped in terms of arcane casters. If one side has a caster and the other doesn't, it's just like one of those sides is supremely better armed. It's just a point of fact that one side automatically wins if they have artillery and the other doesn't (given relatively equal numbers).
eamon 11-05-07, 06:44 PM	So assuming that you're only limited by money, and assuming that you go by the DMG rates, and assuming you have wide open spaces and can bring any number of units to bear, archers are more cost efficient. In my setting, categorizing like Outsider Subtype suggested, the situation is kinda like "EQUAL AND OPPOSING FORCES" and "MAGIC=TECH". Population size is limited, and low-level magic is common (I'm playing in Eberron, but low-level magic is even more common that the setting normally dictates). Essentially, magic is cheaper than in standard D&D. Furthermore, really "unskilled" I represent in game nevertheless as a character with several levels. Anybody with any combat experience has PC class levels in addition to NPC levels. I do this since it translates flavor differences into small but noticeable mechanical differences - not all "warriors" which the PC's encounter are simple 1st level warriors. in my campaign, what would be a 1st level warrior in normal D&D is a probably a warrior(2)fighter(1 or 2). In other words, the campaign is slightly high power (PC's are 9th level) but not really exceptional. In anycase, that means that I'm going to be incorporating a large number of spellcasters simply since that's the demography of this world. Nothing fancy, a cleric(3) is already above-average; but nevertheless, a squadron of warriors will have several magical support units. In that sense, it's low magic - there's a lot of magic, but it's almost all first and maybe a little bit of second level stuff. Truly high-level things (level 5 and beyond, in this context) are rare "special forces". Thanks again for the tactical suggestions all :-).
solbergb 11-05-07, 06:56 PM	A lot depends on just how much magic you are facing. Spellcasters run out of "ammo" a lot faster than modern artillery does. In many ways getting hit with a high level PC class (caster or not) is a lot like getting hit with an airstrike. Nasty when it happens, but then it is over and you get on with business. You get a certain scissors/paper/stone effect. Massed formations of infantry are best for beating off cavalry, but dispersed formations are better for minimizing damage from spells. Lines can't be straight or wall spells will wreak havoc. Wind wall and fog spells can do a lot to neutralize archers. "Heros" are somewhat vulnerable though to massed missile fire, so they have to be careful about exposing themselves to troops with that kind of firepower. I've done some miniatures combat with casters (and other PC types) mixed in with fairly large numbers of ordinary troops (warriors, cavalry, with a few monstrous leader types mixed in). Up till level 8ish, introducing some spellcasters just adds spice to the combat - it affects the tactics but not the fact that you need serious military units out there too. This assumes one side isn't all spellcasters equipped with their wealth in scrolls. Massed low-level spellcasters with consumables can radically change combat dynamics. But the more usual "one cleric and one wizard per 50 infantry, usually level 5 or less" doesn't have that kind of impact. After 5+ level spells enter the fray, though, things start getting weird. A battlefield can survive a couple level 10ish folks on both sides, especially if they aren't primary casters, but you really don't want access to some of the more open ended magic. As an example, a single summoned huge air elemental can rip the guts out of a 200' long 15' wide swath each round, shapeable by where it decides to move when whirlwinding and its dr5/- and massive hitpoints means it will be out there quite a while barring heroic intervention. I watched a druid with control winds whip up a stiff breeze to hurricane force winds around a fortification, destroying its ability to fight in the open.
mackerelses 11-05-07, 07:24 PM	Charging an uninhibited wizard with an army of mundane troops would be almost exactly like the machine-gun nest storming of World War I. While eventually the wizard would be overcome by sheer numbers, the casualties of the attackers would be horrendous.
Robespierre 11-05-07, 09:59 PM	Almost all the posts in this topic have show great understanding of the magic usage-ness of wizards and such in mass combat though... I think what is forgotten is that DnD is set in a feudal world. As such, armies would not be made up of a bunch of hired soldiers, unless it was the army of a free-city thing. As a feudal army, one has to remember that there are the nobles, and each noble has thier own serfs with them. Serfs are set up for battle, while the nobles battle it out amongst themselves and have fun slaughtering the opposing serfs befor/after combat with opposing nobility. Now, because there is magic, the nobility is not likely to just be a bunch of knights like here, but are more likely to be wizards. Wizards will not be hired, but will have to render a number of days each year to the lord next up on the feudal ladder. The cost of the armies means little, as it is paid for by the nobles themselves. Think of normal medieval battles, but instead of knights, imagine wizards on pegasi and such...
Robespierre 11-05-07, 10:05 PM	Eep, douple post...
Kitep 11-05-07, 10:21 PM	I've done some miniatures combat with casters (and other PC types) mixed in with fairly large numbers of ordinary troops (warriors, cavalry, with a few monstrous leader types mixed in). Excellent posts. I especially like the voice of experience, and not just theory. Well done.
Kitep 11-05-07, 10:41 PM	So assuming that you're only limited by money, and assuming that you go by the DMG rates, and assuming you have wide open spaces and can bring any number of units to bear, archers are more cost efficient. Well, I still think mercs are more cost effecient. One longbow = 75 mercs. But I think in your scenerio mercs are not readily available, as anyone who can fight already will be. I ran some numbers of 100 warriors using longbows vs 100 incoming hobgoblins. The hobgoblins ran (x4 speed, lose DEX bonus). They started just out of range (1005 feet), so it took them 9 rounds to cover the distance. In that time, the archers hit an average of 145 times, killing the entire attacking army without taking a single point of damage. Most of the damage came in the last 4 rounds when they stopped needing natural 20s to hit. Attacking at night would change all that. The attackers have darkvision, so they're ok. The defenders could only see 20' (40' shadowy). The archers would only get off 1 shot, hitting about 40 times, killing maybe 25-30 attackers. To counter this, the defenders would need ways to light up the battlefield. Continual flame on an arrow is an obvious answer, but that costs 50gp each. I've seen mundane flaming arrows (oily rag on fire?) in movies, but I don't know how they'd work in D&D. Flaming tar from catapults is a good choice.
Amon_V 11-06-07, 01:49 AM	Well, a D&D war is going to be very different than a real medieval combat, very much so. And its important to note that magic makes critical problems easy and creates new weaknesses. Teleport might be used for Teletroopers, but more likely it would serve as a means to ship magic items to the front lines. Food and medical supplies are probably handled by more mundane means. Armies will almost certainly have huge amounts of healing in their positions--the wounded quickly get fixed back up and redeployed into the fighting. Furthermore, the Bards ability to support allies is going to extremely helpful. Wall of Ice, Grease, Entangle, Web and Stinking Cloud are all excellent tactical control spells. Although their durations are very short on anything above the operational level. Dive Bombing is also a great tactic. With Fly, Shrink Item, and a handy bonfire, you can set a huge area aflame. Alternatively, you can use Holly Berry Bombs instead. With enough fires started, you can overwhelm an enemy. Decanters of Endless Water completely destroy fortified locations. At 30 Gallons/Round, you can cause mudslides or flood trenches in less than an hour. Any subterranean defense is hosed. You could even start building your own river! Another cool magic item is Quall's Feather Token: Tree. With a few dozen of them, you can create cover for your forces. The Druid ability to shape wood should negate most wooden structures. Stone Shape ups the ante; probably allowing bridges to be quickly created and kill traps to be hastily designed. Mind Control is also another critical spell. The effect of mind control an enemy's chain of command can not be overstated. Suggestion: "Call off the attack and withdraw your troops to the nearest defensible location" would be brutal in a military context, to say nothing of what a Dominate Person could accomplish. Fear the power of Shadow Conjuration and "unreal bridges over giant canyons". That one might be highly situational, but the idea of taking out a bridge when an enemy division is walking across it is solid gold. Create Undead and Animate Dead might be unsavory, but might be necessary to increase one's ranks. Animate Objects can produce short term shock troops to roll into an enemy. Finally, Plane Shift has to be good for something. I'm just not sure what...
Kitep 11-11-07, 10:16 PM	So have you done battle yet?
eamon 11-14-07, 11:44 AM	No, before the army's really massed will still take a week or two in game time, and since we only play bi-weekly, that's probably January in RL. However, the players might start scouting and there might be hints about tactics either side is using, so I wanted to clear up to myself what's likely to occur way beforehand; so the concerns of the opposing generals seem realistic. The first such battle planning session will be next tuesday. But it'll be really short - they still have other important tasks to complete in the "special forces" style to prevent the opponent from massing too greatly to be stopped at all. Depending on how successful they are with these strike missions, the battle might go either way (i.e. the result of the battle is largely determined by the circumstances, and now they still have a chance to influence them). So I'm going to use your suggestions to give better realism and flesh out the details and perhaps create a few of these task-force concepts. It'll be up to them to choose which to pursue though. I expect them to try and break an alliance between to groups of the opposition (a powerful lich and a goblin horde), or attempt to gain new allies (they've already successfully convinced several shifter tribes to help, and might gain help from some dwarves), but they might take a more direct approach. In any case, I'll post any updates here, but they'll be few and far between because of the slow pace of our campaign (RL issues, eh?).
Gathris 11-14-07, 12:08 PM	I would tend to think differently. Yes fireballs can be cast, yes mass carnage can be done but in the end wizards run out of spells. A more usefull combination is message spells and scry. Scry the enemy general to find out his plans and use message spells (like message, sending or if high enouph level telepathy) to send orders to your unit leaders. The scry can be defeated but message spells are a lot harder. You can also use spells (cant remember the name) that let you view locations over a large distance so you can determin if your oponent is holding troops back in a forest or over a hill for an ambush. These tatics set you up to out manuver your oponent and dont require mages flying and reinging death on your oponent. Then you can get your wargames minatures out and start playing D&D the wargame :)
Darknight303 11-14-07, 12:08 PM	Invading army needs but one really high spell caster who can prepare circle of teleportation and just drop a few assassins or Ghost faced killers and kill all the wizards via knife or maybe some poison.
Realms of Chaos 11-15-07, 12:21 AM	You know that traditional image. You know, the one ingrained permanently upon the brain of every gamer worth their d20. The one with wizards flying overhead, with bolts of colored light playing between them while a gigantic fight goes on below. Yeah, the thing is, this actually makes sense. Due to the limited range of most spells, a spellcaster can't afford to stay behind the castle gates and launch spells from afar. Due to their low hit points, they can't wade into combat, either. Therefore they fly. They fly right into the middle of the battlefield both because that is where they can do the most good and because it is the futhest point from either stronghold, making them less likely to be hit by a stray arrows (either the enemy's or their's). Those bolts of colored light are spells being counterspelled. The thing is, even though the spells of the spellcaster could easily be used to destroy enemy troops, it is the troops who are eventually going to storm the other castle by force, not the depleted spellcasters, and so the only real job of the spellcaster is to keep the enemy spellcaster from interrupting the flow of battle (unless their side is losing, of course). Tactics that low-level troops would use: 1. Scatter. The biggest concern from an enemy spellcaster is area spells. If you scatter your troops enough, this is no longer an issue. 2. Crossbow Infantry. That's right. Just take your high and mighty archers onto the battlefield. As previously mentioned, the mages generally have low hp. If you can reliably hit their mage with crossbows while your mage keeps counterspelling them, their mage will be forced to fly higher or die, thereby removing close-range effects from the picture. 3. Waves. If you are scattering troops, mages will need to waste more spells to take them out. To make this issue worse, and to prevent the enemy troops from just running between the scattered troops. 4. Release the Animals. If your fighting a powerful foe, every horse in your arsenal should be in use. Furthermore, send every goat, cow, and chicken at them. They will make the battlefield more confusing for the enemy, provide cover, and attack if they become frightened. If you can cause a cow stampede at the beginning of a fight, you are in a good place. Besides, if you win, the enemy pays war reparations. If you lose, your enemy doesn't win any livestock. 5. Sidelong healers. For some reason, soldiers on the battlefield rarely have the time to actually kill their foes, instead leaving them for dead. For this reason, arm some troops with potions of cure light wounds (this should be easily within an army's budget) and send them off for the sides of the battlefield. When (or if) the first wave of attackers falls, the "healers" run behind the brunt of the enemy forces and heal any survivors from that wave. Then, the "healers" and survivors attack the advancing enemy from behind while your reserve waves attack from the the front, making a nice pincer attack. 6. Bring your own utility. Try sending out, for example, troops carrying tower shields (or fence posts) out into the battlefield to strategically place points of temporary cover. This helps an army approach an enemy using ranged weapons, for example. Also, never underestimate the power of alchemic items. For example, have a couple of soldiers ready actions to throw a thunderstone the moment that the commander tries to give an order or rally the troops. The newly deafened troops will not hear and strategy will become difficults. In the same way, smokesticks, when used in the right way, can sway the tide of battle. 7. Use unconventional weapons. In the end of the day, it might not matter whether you are proficient with them. For example, let's pretend that we have a 1st level human commoner using the average ability score array (13 Int, 12 Str for our purposes) has combat expertise and improved disarm is armed with a whip (this is not all too impossible for a member of the militia). The -4 nonproficiency penalty cancels the +4 bonus from improved disarm but the +1 strength bonus and +2 bonus from using a whip increases the disarm bonus to +3, which is higher than the +1 bonus on the opponent level 1 commoners. Although armored enemies may be impossible to hit with this ploy, in Medieval times, who won usually amounted to who could disarm the other of their weaponry and use it to bash in the other's head. If you don't like that plan, recruit some mariners proficient with nets. A touch attack is much easier to hit with than a normal attack against more armored foes and an entangled foe is more easily dealt with. 8. Get creative with siege weaponry. Instead of launching a burning bail of hay into your enemy's kingdom, launch flaming oil into the battlefield (I don't know the physics behind what would happen but a rain of scalding oil could not be that pleasant). Of course, all of this advice is coming from someone with no knowledge of warfare whatsoever. :P
CryoSilver 11-15-07, 12:27 AM	Fireball does not have a short range. At the lowest level it can be cast (5th) it has an 800 foot range. Wands help take care of the "running out of ammo" problem. A wand of fireball is as good as a 50 round, 10 shot per minute grenade launcher, but in a package the size of a pencil.
Gathris 11-15-07, 04:01 AM	Great advice.... I would agree with what RoC has said but would make the susgestion of including messaging spells to give you more knowlage of the battlefield. I mean it should be cheep enouph to have a few adeps (I think there the commaner class that can get some spells) to cast some cheep spells. And the messaging spells usually last a long time.
eamon 11-15-07, 07:14 AM	Revisiting the wand of fireballs versus mercenaries tradeoff Minor nitpick: at 5th level, fireball has a 600ft range, increasing to 800 ft only at tenth level. It's long enough to do serious damage and be unlikely to be hit by many arrows, especially from behind cover, or even improved cover (say, shooting from behind an arrow slit). Indeed, however, a wand of fireballs is 11250 gp, but that's not really beyond the means of these armies. My reasoning is as follows. assuming a $-to-gp ratio of somewhere between 100 and 200 $ per gp (hey, no inflation in gp land!), then a normal merc gets 2sp/day - say 40$. That's very cheap, but we're in backward times after all, so it's conceivable. However, that's the price for a "security professional" - Not the price for someone expecting to die. Considering the modern world, in which you'll need to support the families of the fallen, and pay all sorts of other costs, 200 000$ == 1000gp per lost soldier isn't overkill (if they're doing it for the money!) In a backward world where they get paid upfront, maybe they need a little less, and of course some will die making the net cost difficult to estimate. Under no circumstances, however, will a trained merc accept anything less than 100gp for a combat in which there's liable to be a 50% mortality - and only then if the deal is that the pay of the deceased is split over the survivors. Don't forget, they'll need to attract mercs from outside the region, who would otherwise be safe. People with less to lose can be payed less - and those will be the rank and file. Even the DMG guidelines suggest a price of far higher than 2sp/day. That's for longterm, reasonably safe employment! For a one time job like this, I'd figure double, and the battle will take at least a week to prepare. Then there's travel time, which could go at the normal rate, but might be a month. You're talking about 6 weeks worth of pay just for one battle - and that's without any training to get them to integrate in your army! Let's make it 8 weeks or 11.2gp, just for the pay if it were a safe job. Now you get to pay their equipment (at least to an extent), and a risk factor (which as I've explained, I think should be much higher than a factor two - who, in his right mind, would take a coin flip on his life, just to earn twice as much?) The marginal cost per merc I think I'll figure at 250 gp, (well in my slightly power elevated campaign about 1000, but that's a different issue). At that rate, a wand of fireballs at 11250, which can well kill 45 mercs, isn't looking too bad at all. Even if you only pay the mercs a tenth of that rate, the wand isn't a bad idea, since though it might be a little weaker than 450 1st level warriors, it's also a lot more flexible, and flexibility is power. Conclusion: Conscripts are cheap, a Wand of Fireballs good, and Mercenaries not generally worth it Other factors (such a a long term war which causes insecurity even if you're not a merc, making the risk pay less of an issue) can tilt the balance. But in an otherwise mostly peaceful setting, I'd stick to local conscripts with little to lose.
eamon 11-15-07, 07:26 AM	Tactics that low-level troops would use: [...] Also, never underestimate the power of alchemic items. For example, have a couple of soldiers ready actions to throw a thunderstone the moment that the commander tries to give an order or rally the troops. The newly deafened troops will not hear and strategy will become difficults. In the same way, smokesticks, when used in the right way, can sway the tide of battle. Thunderstones, I like the idea! 7. Use unconventional weapons. [...] If you don't like that plan, recruit some mariners proficient with nets. A touch attack is much easier to hit with than a normal attack against more armored foes and an entangled foe is more easily dealt with. nets, ohh, another good one! I'm not entirely convinces of the whips, but heck, I'll throw em in for variety ;-) 8. Get creative with siege weaponry. Instead of launching a burning bail of hay into your enemy's kingdom, launch flaming oil into the battlefield (I don't know the physics behind what would happen but a rain of scalding oil could not be that pleasant). hmm, good idea... The SRD contains this entry: Oil: it's 1sp, and a full round action to throw (and light fuse), and 50% chance of igniting. If it does it's 1d6 fire and 1 splash (and again the round thereafter). Ranged touch, 10ft increment. If you shoot it with a catapult, the chance of extinguishing should be much higher, but maybe still doable at short range. Sounds improvisable to me! Of course, all of this advice is coming from someone with no knowledge of warfare whatsoever. :P Heck, it's not stopping me either ;-)
Kaede 11-15-07, 10:15 AM	I believe heroes of battle answers this question That's the correct answer! Buy it and you'll see that all this thread has been already solved out!
Tema69 11-16-07, 06:52 PM	If you're talking about mass combat vs. PC Wizards, you could also use the Mob rules, so that up to 100 NPCs count as one unit. Having 10 Mobs is muhc easier than running 1,000 L1 Warriors. Where can one find the mob rules?
Cifer 11-16-07, 09:04 PM	Aerial troops - The attackers have em, but I'm not sure how the defenders can get this. Maybe a few trained griffons, dire bats, giant owls and the like. You were running Eberron, right? House Vadalis is happy to help you out with magebred anythings (griffons, pegasi, dire birds and so on), House Lyrandar has a lot of air ships and House Cannith is still sitting on some Warforged Raptors... Aerial warfare has never been easier.
Voran 11-16-07, 09:58 PM	Fly without Improved Invisible is just asking for Pincushion-ville, population=You. It is the best approach for a caster though, fly high, then go to 'bomber level' and drop your nukes then fly straight up then home.
kelvinaw273 11-17-07, 09:34 AM	I think myself armies will use specific tactics to minimize casualties from magic - there should be entire suites of spells that are suited to buffing formations and fortifications against the enemy's spells. A wand of fireballs is handy, but not as handy a nine thousand men on the open battlefield. The main use for magic is not likely to be to bombard the enemy, but to help apply specific force to a single point at the right moment - you fireball the massed infantry to disrupt their formation just before the cavalry charge impacts, for example. The main difference from the battlefield of the appropriate era be it classical, medieval or Napoleonic is the presence of aerial units using flying creatures. These are where your wizards and warmages will be (bards and clerics have better buffs, they will be among the troops beefing them up and urging them on), where they can get around the battlefield quickly, report intelligence and counter one another. A lot of the magic thrown around will be low-level - simple spells to effect disruption in the ranks of the foe. Remember, a wizard with magic missile can hurt a single foe; a cleric with bless can bolster an entire company.
PhaedrusXY 11-17-07, 11:17 AM	There was a thread on the Optimization boards about how to optimize armies with certain limitations. You might find it useful. Here is a link: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=836078 Looking back, I should have used a bard instead of all those Bless spells...
1 ton ghost 11-17-07, 02:17 PM	firstly, is there like a Geneva Convention for more "civilized" countries in warfare? i mean, are we talking total war? what are you conditions of territorial acquisition, or is this merely attrition? ie)Cloudkill is pretty much nerve gassing alot of low lvl troops. Reanimation of enemy combatants to put in your own circulation could be a big no no. i mean, unless you take the long ass time to strip them of their livery, rankings, heraldry, etc., ppl are gonna' notice Sgt. Rock's uncanny endurance just got alot more profound as did his new appetite. some suggested strategies and/or hypotheticals for what it's worth: -sieged castle under Anti-Magic. we Shrunk boulders, catapulted them into the shell...viola! pebbles to boulders. got rich quickly. -Contagion for long term warfare. if you keep pressing the enemy, probing raids, little skirmishes, this will fatigue troops and slag their Saves vs. disease. it becomes an exponential problem and lets you I.D. enemy clerics much more quickly. they are more easilly "removed" this way then. you could alway disease their supply trains/animals as well. bit more discrete. -Ghost Sound, any diversionary cantrips from an Invis caster. Psy-Ops basically in their encampments. will reduce morale, prevent effective rest. -fully load a Portable Hole w/ elite troops (basically, an APC now), fold up, and Teleport into Scried/"Clairvoyanc'ed" area, hopefully, caster is Invisible, open up, and instant shock troops for quick raid. -Battle Sense (know it's 3rd lvl) or something (Heroes of Battle). let's you know of spellcasting immediately w/in 100ft i believe. good for overwatch. -True Strike; just because. curious, can you True Strike w/ siege weaponry? -Sniper Shot; for that hotshot rogue of your's. give his a spyglass, let him locate enemy commander, the rest is simple enough. -Scry; wound an officer preferably w/ a slashing/piercing weapon. DO NOT kill him/her. the blood garnered from the blade is a perfect link for Scry. that is, he's worth more alive when they can "see him in the HQ" around other officers, maps, intel, etc. this works for B&E into a residency; steal hairsamples from brush, and bear w/ me, feminine hygiene products (blood), or, eh, genetic evidence (semen). this is why a prostitute can change a war.
Tema69 11-17-07, 03:08 PM	-fully load a Portable Hole w/ elite troops (basically, an APC now), fold up, and Teleport into Scried/"Clairvoyanc'ed" area, hopefully, caster is Invisible, open up, and instant shock troops for quick raid. Wouldn't 20.000 gp to transport two to four elite troops be a bit high cost? it's 6 feet in diameter and 10 feet deep. -Sniper Shot; for that hotshot rogue of your's. give his a spyglass, let him locate enemy commander, the rest is simple enough. You wanna sneak attack / snipe someone with a rogue whose sneak attack range is maximum 60 feet?
1 ton ghost 11-17-07, 04:45 PM	ah, a literalist. i figured as much. i didn't say go out and buy a PH. if you have one as a PC, so be it. use it. 2nd, you can fit quite a few ppl in a 6X10ft space. it's not all "5ft. squares" and threats. simple math and physics. if you're not engaged, then the 5ft is moot. besides, it's not intended for immediate combat. too risky; if there's a snag they all die in the hole. plus air supply is an issue. it was designed for transport discretely behind enemy lines, not plop them down in mid battle. i thought Sniper Shot removed the 30ft range discrepancy on SA? perhaps i'm thinnking of a different spell, but i coulda' sworn there was one that let you SA w/out range issue. oh, and Mobs are in DMGII.
epifreak 11-17-07, 06:44 PM	Here's what I'm wondering: While mid level casters are functioning as artillery (sort of), what about a mid-level martial character. Picture this, a spiked chain fighter, equipped with DR somehow (even 3 or 5 would be absolutely tremendous. It doesn't even have to be X/-, silver, cold iron, or even magic would be plenty. All he needs it for is to eliminate damage from those pesky nat 20s on him.). He grabs the whirlwind tree and is carrying a few potions of enlarge, as well as some form of crit mediation (there was a low level sorc wiz. spell in the spell compendium that more or less gives you undead immunties, but my roommate appears to have scampered off with the book.) Picture the effect he could have on the battle, and he doesn't run out of ammo. human fighter 6: Feats: 1EWP spiked chain 1dodge 1mobility 2combat expertise 3combat reflexes 4spring attack 6whirlwind attack high dex spec. with at least a 13 int. With lvl. 6 equip, it isn't at all hard to have his AC above 20, preferably about 23-24 to force a nat 20 from every lvl 1 warrior who wants to hit him. Any mook who approaches him up to his dex mod dies without even getting into melee range. On his turn, he moves to the nearest mass of soldiers and whirlwinds. the min. 2+str from his weapon is more than enough to drop the 2 hp masses. I think that would have a much larger effect on a battle than a level 6 arcanist would, as he can do it all damn day without penalty.
PhaedrusXY 11-17-07, 08:35 PM	A level 6 cleric can cast Animate Dead. 2 skeletal 12-headed hydras (or 4 6-headed ones) would be better for an army than one level 6 fighter, I think, even if he does have Whirlwind Attack, Damage Reduction, and Crit Immunity (somehow...). The cleric could also make more undead that he couldn't control, but that lower level wizards or sorcerers could control via Command Undead. And then you still have the cleric himself. A good army might not want to use these methods, but I think Animate Dead is one of the most powerful things spellcasters can bring to bear for something like this. Wizards, sorcerers, and bards could also add monsters to the army ranks via Charm Monster, but not till level 7. Clerics get Animate Dead at level 5, and you don't have to worry about them turning on you if the Charm wears off or gets dispelled.
temparus2000 11-17-07, 08:41 PM	if the defenders have wizards: a huge, deep trench with multiple Move Earth spells. Line the trench with spikes if desired and time permits. Then hide the trench with Mirage Arcana to make it look like normal, flat land. Against an army, 90% or more of the enemy troops should fail the disbelief save.
PhaedrusXY 11-17-07, 09:02 PM	if the defenders have wizards: a huge, deep trench with multiple Move Earth spells. Line the trench with spikes if desired and time permits. Then hide the trench with Mirage Arcana to make it look like normal, flat land. Against an army, 90% or more of the enemy troops should fail the disbelief save.If you have the time, you could do all of that with a first level wizard and a bunch of guys with shovels. Silent Image lasts as long as you concentrate on it. The main difference would be that the area would be a bit smaller.
kelvinaw273 11-18-07, 07:42 AM	Always bear in mind with these things, Expense and Availability: Casters are vastly more expensive than regular troops - it can cost the same to hire a wizard for a day as to hire a thousand 1st level warriors. For example, why use Move Earth when you have a few thousand men with shovels? A lot of tactics proposed are what PCs would do when combined with an army - usually a small army vs a much larger one. What really matter are the tactics that a big army would use with a lot of low-level spell casters and a lot of low level equipment. Would a 2nd level wizard assigned to a company be more useful using Burning Hands as a flamethrower, or Message to communicate and Grease to disrupt the enemy? Then there is availability: You are only going to concentrate on small elite units once your basic army is big enough or you run out of men. Typically, when facing an invasion everyone who can be drafted will help in the defence, even if they aren't being paid. On the offence, everyone has to be paid, so a likely encounter will be between a large invader against a small defender, with the latter supplemented by more high-level casters than the former.
epifreak 11-18-07, 12:04 PM	For that matter, anyone who can cast summon swarm can cause some real havoc. A bat swarm causes bleeding, which isn't going to be stopped in time given the average health of most mooks.