An awkward initiative situation... [Archive] - Wizards Community

An awkward initiative situation... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hyphz
05-11-05, 09:17 AM Ok. So, the PCs are walking around cracking open a bunch of abandoned tombs ("that bit with the squares" in Region B of the World's Largest Dungeon, if anyone cares). And:

- They bash open the tomb door. They are ready for the tomb to contain monsters because the last 2 tombs they opened did. (For anyone who's going to complain that they're relatively rare on the WLD table - we hadn't had any combat all session and the fighters were getting bored so I weighted the rolls)

- Inside the tomb are 4 Vargouilles. They have been imprisoned there for hundreds of years. Goblins and other creatures have been trying to open the tombs repeatedly during this time and all failed.

- When the Vargouilles saw the door beginning to open (it's slow) they tried to Hide and set up an ambush themselves.

- When the PCs opened the tomb, I rolled hidden spot checks for all the PCs. All of the PCs spotted 3 of the Vargouilles, but the fourth Vargouille remained unnoticed by all but 1 of the PCs.

So... who, if anyone, gets a surprise round?

It seems according to the rules that either there is no surprise round (because both sides become aware that there are enemies at the same time)! The fourth Vargouille's attempt to hide counts for nothing because a) it isn't any more aware of the other PCs than any of the other monsters, and b) to avoid surprise the PCs don't have to be aware of it, just aware of "their enemies", which they are because they've spotted the other Vargouilles.

Is this really right?
High Octane
05-11-05, 09:28 AM The 4th Vargouile has to roll initiative, but when he enters combat (Whenever he feels like on or after his init roll) he gets the bonuses of surprise (People losing dex bonus to AC)
Neerie
05-11-05, 09:54 AM Well it depends, the one PC who noticed the 4th one could just say something like : watch out guys, there are 4 vargouilles here! And as the PCs are aware of at least 3, they are already ready for combat, it's not as if they were going to be attacked while admiring the sculptures or something.

I'd say, no surprise round for anyone.
MinusInnocence
05-11-05, 02:56 PM While the DMG does omit this dilemma from its scenarios (it focuses more on what happens when only a few people know the imminent danger, not the other way around), I find the precedent of "As long as PCs know about a few enemies, they can't be Flat-Footed against anyone" to be troubling.

I would say you should treat the Vargouille as an "aware newcomer," but that's not quite right: it's not a newcomer, it was there the whole time, and should get something more out of this than to be placed first in the Initiative sequence.

So, my vote goes with giving it and the one hero who noticed it a surprise round. Yes, as a free action he/she can shout out a warning to the others; but that probably won't be necessary, as it's about to come swooping in to munch on someone's face and it would be hard to miss that.
mercurial67
05-11-05, 04:01 PM The correct, by-the-rules way is no one is surprised. Start combat with everyone rolling initiative and go from there. The one vargoille which was not spotted by the rest of the group is hidding from everyone except the one PC who spotted it.

How you treat a hidden foe can have a major effect on the combat though. Most people on the board (myself included) seem to treat hiding the same as being invisible for combat effects. There are also options from other WOTC sources which indicate you can move 1'/rank in the open without being spotted by taking a -10 to your hide check. If you managed to move next to someone while remaining hidden, you would get +2/hit & they would loose their dex bonus.

Personally I like to start my combats off with a single standard action for everyone except those who are surprised. I like to do this even if no one is surprised to give everyone a chance to react to combat before things get into full swing.
Kaligrad
05-11-05, 04:11 PM Roll initiative for the 4th vargoille and the PC who saw it. If the PC goes first, the monster does not get a surprise round, since he was able to shout a warning before it jumped out. If the monster goes first, he gets the benefits of a surprise round against everyone except the PC that saw it.
snowlynx
05-11-05, 04:20 PM Everyone is going to immediately try to react to their opponent, so I'd say no surprise round- why are the players standing stupidly around when they see three creatures that are probably hostile? Why are the spotted creatures also standing there stupidly while their ally attacks?

Both sides are aware of at least one enemy, so no suprise.
mercurial67
05-11-05, 06:06 PM Roll initiative for the 4th vargoille and the PC who saw it. If the PC goes first, the monster does not get a surprise round, since he was able to shout a warning before it jumped out. If the monster goes first, he gets the benefits of a surprise round against everyone except the PC that saw it.You have the problem mentioned by snowlynx, everyone else is not going to be just sitting around. They may do something before the hidden vargoile has a chance to react. Also, the one PC who saw all four of the vargoiles does not know the others did not see him as well. Unless the party routinely goes into combat yelling "there are X combatants" I wouldn't even allow them to do it unless it was hidden very well & the player who spotted knew he was better at spotting things than others.
Shaken, not Stunned
05-11-05, 06:16 PM I would hope that the fourth PC would say something to the others. I tend to say, "guy-highest-spot, roll spot at +2 (+2 for the party being with him)." This keeps everyone on the same page with out a gauranteed spot for soemeone.
SwitchUK
05-11-05, 07:24 PM I'd be inclined to rule as follows:

The characters who failed to spot the fourth Vargouille are treated as flat-footed against that one Vargouille during its first active round, however the character who did spot it is not. If, however, the fourth character warns the rest of the party (a free action - "There's another one!"), then they instantly spot the fourth one as well, and it loses the element of surprise.

In the event that the character who spotted the fourth Vargouille doesn't actually warn the rest of the party (which is quite likely), but nevertheless acts to address that one threat, then perhaps a DC 10 wisdom check is in order? Anyone who fails doesn't cotton on, everyone else reasons there's something going on they didn't immediately see and adjust their guard accordingly.
LiXinjian
05-11-05, 08:52 PM Okay, here's my suggestion. As far as I know, all of this is right according to the rules.

All of the vargouilles get a standard action from the surprise round. Then Initiative is rolled and the combat proceeds as normal. In this example, the vargouilles were all aware of the characters' presence because it took time to open the door. They are owed a surprise round. The characters, on the other hand, didn't know there were monsters in that tomb: they were merely expecting it.

If the 4th Vargouille realizes most of the PCs haven't noticed it, it has a few options available:

1) if the vargouille delays its regular combat action, it can wait until all of the PCs have moved and engaged foes they already perceived, to perhaps position itself better (closer to the wizard who remained behind, for instance). To gain any benefit from doing so, the vargouille must remain undetected. Therefore, its options during the surprise round are somewhat limited. The PC who spotted it probably also realizes it's staying low because it believes no-one saw it. He's likely to report its presence to the others, therefore obliviating the vargouille's advantage to delay.

2) From its hiding place, the vargouille has already succeeded on its hide check. If local conditions make it possible, it can move while remaining hidden. If it can get within melee (or ranged) reach of a PC, it can make a melee (or ranged) attack, denying the PC his or her DEX modifier to AC. In game terms, as a successfully hidden creature, the vargouille is invisible, and you can't apply your DEX bonus to AC against attacks you are not aware of.

If the PCs had been aware of all but the 4th vargouille's presence (not merely on the defensive because of an established pattern - in D&D, it is assumed you are always on guard for danger. It's the actual knowledge of a foe's presence that prevents surprise, not simply expecting it), then only this 4th vargouille would have gotten a surprise round, since there is no surprise when both groups are aware of each other.

Note that if the 4th vargouille chooses to delay, it'll effectively come up as if she had entered the fray at a later time, just like any other third party stumbling on two groups fighting each other.

Edit: corrected a blatant mistake.
hyphz
05-12-05, 12:00 PM All of the vargouilles get a standard action from the surprise round. Then Initiative is rolled and the combat proceeds as normal. In this example, the vargouilles were all aware of the characters' presence because it took time to open the door. They are owed a surprise round. The characters, on the other hand, didn't know there were monsters in that tomb: they were merely expecting it.

I think that's very cagey. After all, by the same logic, the Vargouilles don't know that the door is being opened by incoming adventurers; it might be opening itself because their time in prison is over, for instance. Bear in mind that over the last hundred years they have probably gotten used to hearing the noises of people knocking around outside the tomb and not achieving anything.

2) From its hiding place, the vargouille has already succeeded on its hide check. If local conditions make it possible, it can move while remaining hidden. If it can get within melee (or ranged) reach of a PC, it can make a melee (or ranged) attack, denying the PC his or her DEX modifier to AC. In game terms, as a successfully hidden creature, the vargouille is invisible, and you can't apply your DEX bonus to AC against attacks you are not aware of.

Again I'd be cagey about that. The Vargouille has hidden in the shadows near the ceiling of the room. As it is not a shadowdancer, it can't take shadows with it wherever it goes. It needs something to hide behind, or something to hide using. Without magic, even a nat 20 won't hide you in the middle of a well-lit open room.

Note that I'm not being **** about this, and I'll let a PC or NPC who wants to sneak hide in "the shadows" along the edges of a corridor for instance, but if they wanted to argue that they could move in front of the king's throne during his public address without anybody seeing them because they made their Hide check I'd be a bit upset.

If the PCs had been aware of all but the 4th vargouille's presence (not merely on the defensive because of an established pattern - in D&D, it is assumed you are always on guard for danger. It's the actual knowledge of a foe's presence that prevents surprise, not simply expecting it)

Sure. But I'm not sure it's quite that clear. For example, being "flat-footed" is a mental state of your PC, meaning that they are not aware of an immediate combat (by metaphor, their feet are resting flat on the ground rather than being up and ready to dodge and move about). By that logic, it's not possible to be "flat-footed" against some foes but not others - once you've lifted your feet, they're no longer flat, and only you choose when to put them down again.
Draco Strang
05-12-05, 12:31 PM We should really be debating the most awkward initiative situation ever:

The time you close your eyes, lean in to kiss the girl, and there's no reciprocation.

Yea....that's awkward alright.
mercurial67
05-12-05, 01:20 PM All of the vargouilles get a standard action from the surprise round. Then Initiative is rolled and the combat proceeds as normal. In this example, the vargouilles were all aware of the characters' presence because it took time to open the door. They are owed a surprise round. The characters, on the other hand, didn't know there were monsters in that tomb: they were merely expecting it.There is no surprise round because the characters made their spot check. The vargouilles made their listen check & the PCs made their spot checks to spot at least ONE of the vargouilles. This means everyone is aware and by the rules there is no surprise round.

It does not matter if the PCs spot all of the creatures or not, they only have to be aware of a single opponent to not be surprised. The vargouille who is hidden has his own bonuses to attack those who don't see it, but the PCs could react before he does.

If the PC who spotted the 4th vargouille yells out there are four, the PCs do not automatically spot it. Unless the vargouille does somethig which requires it to make another hide check (such as moving) the PCs must spend a move action to attempt another spot check (they have to spend a bit of time looking around for what they missed the first time - this is by the rules under spot). The PC should not be allowed to point though since he doesn't know which ones were spotted by others and which ones weren't.
Vasiliy
05-12-05, 02:49 PM There is no surprise round, because all PCs are aware. The rules say that it does not matter why PC is aware. In the Player Handbook the sample with the Kobold Sorcerer (when PCs do not see enemy, but are aware only by Lightning Bolt) shows it.
LiXinjian
05-12-05, 07:13 PM I think that's very cagey. After all, by the same logic, the Vargouilles don't know that the door is being opened by incoming adventurers; it might be opening itself because their time in prison is over, for instance. Bear in mind that over the last hundred years they have probably gotten used to hearing the noises of people knocking around outside the tomb and not achieving anything.

Well, the way you described the situation, the vargouilles perceived some kind of threat, and decided they would hide once they saw the door open. I assumed they attacked as soon as the door opened, but of course, if they choose not to, then there is no surprise round.

Again I'd be cagey about that. The Vargouille has hidden in the shadows near the ceiling of the room. As it is not a shadowdancer, it can't take shadows with it wherever it goes. It needs something to hide behind, or something to hide using. Without magic, even a nat 20 won't hide you in the middle of a well-lit open room.

You'll note that I said "if local conditions make it possible". I couldn't tell from your example if there was cover/concealement between the PCs' position and whatever hiding place the vargouille had picked.

Sure. But I'm not sure it's quite that clear. For example, being "flat-footed" is a mental state of your PC, meaning that they are not aware of an immediate combat (by metaphor, their feet are resting flat on the ground rather than being up and ready to dodge and move about). By that logic, it's not possible to be "flat-footed" against some foes but not others - once you've lifted your feet, they're no longer flat, and only you choose when to put them down again.

Not being able to apply your DEX mod to your AC is only nominally the same as being flat-footed, but it's not the same thing (for instance, you can still make attacks of opportunity). You can't apply your DEX to AC when climbing a rope, but that doesn't mean you are flat-footed. In this instance, I didn't say they'd be flat-footed: I said they'd be unable to apply their DEX mod to AC, which is right by the rules when it comes to an invisible creature attacking another creature that doesn't know about the incomming attack.

From Skip's Rules of the Game (all about sneak attack, part2) article:
"When facing a totally concealed foe, a creature is denied Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class and the attacker gets a +2 attack bonus as well."

I'm pretty sure it's in the PHB as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hyphz 05-11-05, 09:17 AM	Ok. So, the PCs are walking around cracking open a bunch of abandoned tombs ("that bit with the squares" in Region B of the World's Largest Dungeon, if anyone cares). And: - They bash open the tomb door. They are ready for the tomb to contain monsters because the last 2 tombs they opened did. (For anyone who's going to complain that they're relatively rare on the WLD table - we hadn't had any combat all session and the fighters were getting bored so I weighted the rolls) - Inside the tomb are 4 Vargouilles. They have been imprisoned there for hundreds of years. Goblins and other creatures have been trying to open the tombs repeatedly during this time and all failed. - When the Vargouilles saw the door beginning to open (it's slow) they tried to Hide and set up an ambush themselves. - When the PCs opened the tomb, I rolled hidden spot checks for all the PCs. All of the PCs spotted 3 of the Vargouilles, but the fourth Vargouille remained unnoticed by all but 1 of the PCs. So... who, if anyone, gets a surprise round? It seems according to the rules that either there is no surprise round (because both sides become aware that there are enemies at the same time)! The fourth Vargouille's attempt to hide counts for nothing because a) it isn't any more aware of the other PCs than any of the other monsters, and b) to avoid surprise the PCs don't have to be aware of it, just aware of "their enemies", which they are because they've spotted the other Vargouilles. Is this really right?
High Octane 05-11-05, 09:28 AM	The 4th Vargouile has to roll initiative, but when he enters combat (Whenever he feels like on or after his init roll) he gets the bonuses of surprise (People losing dex bonus to AC)
Neerie 05-11-05, 09:54 AM	Well it depends, the one PC who noticed the 4th one could just say something like : watch out guys, there are 4 vargouilles here! And as the PCs are aware of at least 3, they are already ready for combat, it's not as if they were going to be attacked while admiring the sculptures or something. I'd say, no surprise round for anyone.
MinusInnocence 05-11-05, 02:56 PM	While the DMG does omit this dilemma from its scenarios (it focuses more on what happens when only a few people know the imminent danger, not the other way around), I find the precedent of "As long as PCs know about a few enemies, they can't be Flat-Footed against anyone" to be troubling. I would say you should treat the Vargouille as an "aware newcomer," but that's not quite right: it's not a newcomer, it was there the whole time, and should get something more out of this than to be placed first in the Initiative sequence. So, my vote goes with giving it and the one hero who noticed it a surprise round. Yes, as a free action he/she can shout out a warning to the others; but that probably won't be necessary, as it's about to come swooping in to munch on someone's face and it would be hard to miss that.
mercurial67 05-11-05, 04:01 PM	The correct, by-the-rules way is no one is surprised. Start combat with everyone rolling initiative and go from there. The one vargoille which was not spotted by the rest of the group is hidding from everyone except the one PC who spotted it. How you treat a hidden foe can have a major effect on the combat though. Most people on the board (myself included) seem to treat hiding the same as being invisible for combat effects. There are also options from other WOTC sources which indicate you can move 1'/rank in the open without being spotted by taking a -10 to your hide check. If you managed to move next to someone while remaining hidden, you would get +2/hit & they would loose their dex bonus. Personally I like to start my combats off with a single standard action for everyone except those who are surprised. I like to do this even if no one is surprised to give everyone a chance to react to combat before things get into full swing.
Kaligrad 05-11-05, 04:11 PM	Roll initiative for the 4th vargoille and the PC who saw it. If the PC goes first, the monster does not get a surprise round, since he was able to shout a warning before it jumped out. If the monster goes first, he gets the benefits of a surprise round against everyone except the PC that saw it.
snowlynx 05-11-05, 04:20 PM	Everyone is going to immediately try to react to their opponent, so I'd say no surprise round- why are the players standing stupidly around when they see three creatures that are probably hostile? Why are the spotted creatures also standing there stupidly while their ally attacks? Both sides are aware of at least one enemy, so no suprise.
mercurial67 05-11-05, 06:06 PM	Roll initiative for the 4th vargoille and the PC who saw it. If the PC goes first, the monster does not get a surprise round, since he was able to shout a warning before it jumped out. If the monster goes first, he gets the benefits of a surprise round against everyone except the PC that saw it.You have the problem mentioned by snowlynx, everyone else is not going to be just sitting around. They may do something before the hidden vargoile has a chance to react. Also, the one PC who saw all four of the vargoiles does not know the others did not see him as well. Unless the party routinely goes into combat yelling "there are X combatants" I wouldn't even allow them to do it unless it was hidden very well & the player who spotted knew he was better at spotting things than others.
Shaken, not Stunned 05-11-05, 06:16 PM	I would hope that the fourth PC would say something to the others. I tend to say, "guy-highest-spot, roll spot at +2 (+2 for the party being with him)." This keeps everyone on the same page with out a gauranteed spot for soemeone.
SwitchUK 05-11-05, 07:24 PM	I'd be inclined to rule as follows: The characters who failed to spot the fourth Vargouille are treated as flat-footed against that one Vargouille during its first active round, however the character who did spot it is not. If, however, the fourth character warns the rest of the party (a free action - "There's another one!"), then they instantly spot the fourth one as well, and it loses the element of surprise. In the event that the character who spotted the fourth Vargouille doesn't actually warn the rest of the party (which is quite likely), but nevertheless acts to address that one threat, then perhaps a DC 10 wisdom check is in order? Anyone who fails doesn't cotton on, everyone else reasons there's something going on they didn't immediately see and adjust their guard accordingly.
LiXinjian 05-11-05, 08:52 PM	Okay, here's my suggestion. As far as I know, all of this is right according to the rules. All of the vargouilles get a standard action from the surprise round. Then Initiative is rolled and the combat proceeds as normal. In this example, the vargouilles were all aware of the characters' presence because it took time to open the door. They are owed a surprise round. The characters, on the other hand, didn't know there were monsters in that tomb: they were merely expecting it. If the 4th Vargouille realizes most of the PCs haven't noticed it, it has a few options available: 1) if the vargouille delays its regular combat action, it can wait until all of the PCs have moved and engaged foes they already perceived, to perhaps position itself better (closer to the wizard who remained behind, for instance). To gain any benefit from doing so, the vargouille must remain undetected. Therefore, its options during the surprise round are somewhat limited. The PC who spotted it probably also realizes it's staying low because it believes no-one saw it. He's likely to report its presence to the others, therefore obliviating the vargouille's advantage to delay. 2) From its hiding place, the vargouille has already succeeded on its hide check. If local conditions make it possible, it can move while remaining hidden. If it can get within melee (or ranged) reach of a PC, it can make a melee (or ranged) attack, denying the PC his or her DEX modifier to AC. In game terms, as a successfully hidden creature, the vargouille is invisible, and you can't apply your DEX bonus to AC against attacks you are not aware of. If the PCs had been aware of all but the 4th vargouille's presence (not merely on the defensive because of an established pattern - in D&D, it is assumed you are always on guard for danger. It's the actual knowledge of a foe's presence that prevents surprise, not simply expecting it), then only this 4th vargouille would have gotten a surprise round, since there is no surprise when both groups are aware of each other. Note that if the 4th vargouille chooses to delay, it'll effectively come up as if she had entered the fray at a later time, just like any other third party stumbling on two groups fighting each other. Edit: corrected a blatant mistake.
hyphz 05-12-05, 12:00 PM	All of the vargouilles get a standard action from the surprise round. Then Initiative is rolled and the combat proceeds as normal. In this example, the vargouilles were all aware of the characters' presence because it took time to open the door. They are owed a surprise round. The characters, on the other hand, didn't know there were monsters in that tomb: they were merely expecting it. I think that's very cagey. After all, by the same logic, the Vargouilles don't know that the door is being opened by incoming adventurers; it might be opening itself because their time in prison is over, for instance. Bear in mind that over the last hundred years they have probably gotten used to hearing the noises of people knocking around outside the tomb and not achieving anything. 2) From its hiding place, the vargouille has already succeeded on its hide check. If local conditions make it possible, it can move while remaining hidden. If it can get within melee (or ranged) reach of a PC, it can make a melee (or ranged) attack, denying the PC his or her DEX modifier to AC. In game terms, as a successfully hidden creature, the vargouille is invisible, and you can't apply your DEX bonus to AC against attacks you are not aware of. Again I'd be cagey about that. The Vargouille has hidden in the shadows near the ceiling of the room. As it is not a shadowdancer, it can't take shadows with it wherever it goes. It needs something to hide behind, or something to hide using. Without magic, even a nat 20 won't hide you in the middle of a well-lit open room. Note that I'm not being **** about this, and I'll let a PC or NPC who wants to sneak hide in "the shadows" along the edges of a corridor for instance, but if they wanted to argue that they could move in front of the king's throne during his public address without anybody seeing them because they made their Hide check I'd be a bit upset. If the PCs had been aware of all but the 4th vargouille's presence (not merely on the defensive because of an established pattern - in D&D, it is assumed you are always on guard for danger. It's the actual knowledge of a foe's presence that prevents surprise, not simply expecting it) Sure. But I'm not sure it's quite that clear. For example, being "flat-footed" is a mental state of your PC, meaning that they are not aware of an immediate combat (by metaphor, their feet are resting flat on the ground rather than being up and ready to dodge and move about). By that logic, it's not possible to be "flat-footed" against some foes but not others - once you've lifted your feet, they're no longer flat, and only you choose when to put them down again.
Draco Strang 05-12-05, 12:31 PM	We should really be debating the most awkward initiative situation ever: The time you close your eyes, lean in to kiss the girl, and there's no reciprocation. Yea....that's awkward alright.
mercurial67 05-12-05, 01:20 PM	All of the vargouilles get a standard action from the surprise round. Then Initiative is rolled and the combat proceeds as normal. In this example, the vargouilles were all aware of the characters' presence because it took time to open the door. They are owed a surprise round. The characters, on the other hand, didn't know there were monsters in that tomb: they were merely expecting it.There is no surprise round because the characters made their spot check. The vargouilles made their listen check & the PCs made their spot checks to spot at least ONE of the vargouilles. This means everyone is aware and by the rules there is no surprise round. It does not matter if the PCs spot all of the creatures or not, they only have to be aware of a single opponent to not be surprised. The vargouille who is hidden has his own bonuses to attack those who don't see it, but the PCs could react before he does. If the PC who spotted the 4th vargouille yells out there are four, the PCs do not automatically spot it. Unless the vargouille does somethig which requires it to make another hide check (such as moving) the PCs must spend a move action to attempt another spot check (they have to spend a bit of time looking around for what they missed the first time - this is by the rules under spot). The PC should not be allowed to point though since he doesn't know which ones were spotted by others and which ones weren't.
Vasiliy 05-12-05, 02:49 PM	There is no surprise round, because all PCs are aware. The rules say that it does not matter why PC is aware. In the Player Handbook the sample with the Kobold Sorcerer (when PCs do not see enemy, but are aware only by Lightning Bolt) shows it.
LiXinjian 05-12-05, 07:13 PM	I think that's very cagey. After all, by the same logic, the Vargouilles don't know that the door is being opened by incoming adventurers; it might be opening itself because their time in prison is over, for instance. Bear in mind that over the last hundred years they have probably gotten used to hearing the noises of people knocking around outside the tomb and not achieving anything. Well, the way you described the situation, the vargouilles perceived some kind of threat, and decided they would hide once they saw the door open. I assumed they attacked as soon as the door opened, but of course, if they choose not to, then there is no surprise round. Again I'd be cagey about that. The Vargouille has hidden in the shadows near the ceiling of the room. As it is not a shadowdancer, it can't take shadows with it wherever it goes. It needs something to hide behind, or something to hide using. Without magic, even a nat 20 won't hide you in the middle of a well-lit open room. You'll note that I said "if local conditions make it possible". I couldn't tell from your example if there was cover/concealement between the PCs' position and whatever hiding place the vargouille had picked. Sure. But I'm not sure it's quite that clear. For example, being "flat-footed" is a mental state of your PC, meaning that they are not aware of an immediate combat (by metaphor, their feet are resting flat on the ground rather than being up and ready to dodge and move about). By that logic, it's not possible to be "flat-footed" against some foes but not others - once you've lifted your feet, they're no longer flat, and only you choose when to put them down again. Not being able to apply your DEX mod to your AC is only nominally the same as being flat-footed, but it's not the same thing (for instance, you can still make attacks of opportunity). You can't apply your DEX to AC when climbing a rope, but that doesn't mean you are flat-footed. In this instance, I didn't say they'd be flat-footed: I said they'd be unable to apply their DEX mod to AC, which is right by the rules when it comes to an invisible creature attacking another creature that doesn't know about the incomming attack. From Skip's Rules of the Game (all about sneak attack, part2) article: "When facing a totally concealed foe, a creature is denied Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class and the attacker gets a +2 attack bonus as well." I'm pretty sure it's in the PHB as well.