Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Laranis Callirr 09-12-03, 01:49 PM	Hey there. I'm currently running a D&D 3.5 campaign in the Forgotten Realms, and need a little help with an ambush that will capture the party. This ambush doesn't necessarily need to succeed, as I don't want to pit them against an impossible encounter, but the game will be far more interesting if they are indeed captured. The party is composed of 5 players, all of level 6. A Moon Elven Mage; A Half-Orc Fighter; An Avariel Fighter; A Dwarven Battlerager; and a Sun Elven Cleric/Mage. The ambush will take place at night, when the party has camped to rest. It will probably occur when the Moon Elven mage is guarding (as she is nearly always the first to guard, and usually has depleted her spells). I plan to give the party an encounter with some bandits (affiliated with those who will take part in the ambush), in order to deplete the party's spells. The rogues will come in from all directions, shooting arrows which will release a sort of sleeping gas, having the same DC to resist as a mass sleeping spell of level 6. This should put the party down to bed, as they mostly have low will saves (even the mage). However, if this initial strike fails, I'm unsure of what to do to capture the party. I'm thinking of using spells like hold person, but the repeated saves may mean that the PC's could escape. I haven't made the NPC's yet, but I predict that the save will be around 19. Either way, if anybody has any suggestions as to what I can do, or any improvements as to what I proposed above, I would greatly appreciate it. :)
PenderGrass 09-12-03, 02:00 PM	Use nets... their effectiveness is beyond compare.....:cool:
Chobemaster 09-12-03, 02:06 PM	From personal experience as a player in almost that exact scenario, let me caution you. If it seems like a setup (impossible to detect the ambush for no discernable reason, this sleeping gas has never been heard of before and will disappear afterward with no clue as to its source or abilities) etc. it's not very fun for the players. You might as well just ask your players to assume they were captured...at least it doesn't insult their intelligence. And it's just "luck" that the encounter will deliberately be set up to hit when the party is most vulnerable, right (inital waves to deplete spells, then they'll be sure to know the party's guard habits, the mechanics of spell preparation, and the wizard's level or remaining spell capacity?) right? If the bandits have a way to know these things, great. If not, that's DM metagaming. You can do whatever you want, so don't cheat. Once your players think you're cheating to manipulate the plot, you can lose a lot of their trust.
Laranis Callirr 09-12-03, 02:15 PM	Chobemaster, I completely understand what you mean, I would be angered if the DM set up something like that for me. :D But no, this ambush has been pre-planned, this group of bandits has dealt with the party before, and knows them well. Their leader, a rather obsessive/bipolar rogue, has lost his wife to an attack to the party, as well as a rather large monetary asset. That's why he wants to capture the party. The PC's will be able to notice the ambush, not to mention the fact that the bandits who attacked them were wearing the same outfit and using similar weapons to the rogues taking part in the ambush. And once they have freed themselves, they will be able to find the sleeping arrows used on them, and take them. :D And nets... hmm, that's a very good idea I hadn't thought about. Thanks, PenderGrass. :D
Chobemaster 09-12-03, 02:23 PM	Originally posted by Laranis Callirr Chobemaster, I completely understand what you mean, I would be angered if the DM set up something like that for me. :D But no, this ambush has been pre-planned, this group of bandits has dealt with the party before, and knows them well. Their leader, a rather obsessive/bipolar rogue, has lost his wife to an attack to the party, as well as a rather large monetary asset. That's why he wants to capture the party. The PC's will be able to notice the ambush, not to mention the fact that the bandits who attacked them were wearing the same outfit and using similar weapons to the rogues taking part in the ambush. And once they have freed themselves, they will be able to find the sleeping arrows used on them, and take them. :D In that case, rock on! They will know that the elf has low-light vision, so keep that in mind. Arrows with magical darkness and light spells can do a lot at night. Either illuminate your target and fire from the dark, or use dark to conceal movements. What's the terrain?
Kalanth 09-12-03, 02:26 PM	The last time I captured my players it was because they were discovered bathing in the ocean by a patrol of evil knights. They were captured because the dice just luckily rolled that way. The human got roped and hogtied, then tied to the back of a horse, the elf was cut down as he tried to run, knocked him out with the flat of the blade. Gotta love subdual damage.
Laranis Callirr 09-12-03, 02:29 PM	I'm not too sure on the exact details on the terrain; the PC's are at a point where they are free to travel to where they wish. But the general area they are in is near Waterdeep (if you are familiar with the place). Rolling hills, grasslands, some bushes and hedges, a few trees. Their camping spot, knowing the group, will most likely be near a road, under the shelter of a tree or two, near a valley. Darkness/light arrows are awesome! :D Thanks for that suggestion as well.
Kalanth 09-12-03, 02:52 PM	A few well placed Ranger bandits hiding under lean to's on the side of the road waiting in ambush of the average passer by to steel there gold. This is always a good one. Maybe one of them happens to know of the groupd and realizes that the leader wants them taken prisoner. Poisoned weapons are always nice, not a fatal one, but a poison that does Con damage till unconcious, not till dead.
Laranis Callirr 09-12-03, 02:58 PM	Those daggers would be nice too. The bandits (or possibly rangers/rogues) know that the party will be travelling that way, as the party's contacts in town report directly to the rogues. Once the party settles down to rest, the mage will probably offer to guard first, while she reads her spellbook and studies. The party isn't too cautious when it comes to ambushes, as they haven't experienced one yet. Since you guys have given me pretty neat ideas in terms of equipment to use, I'm going to do away with the sleep arrows. The first wave of attacks will be the Con reducing daggers or arrows, thrown at a distance. Next come the darkness arrows, which will reduce the whole area into a large pit of darkness. If we assume that the bandits often use the darkness tactic, they can all have blindfight, and thus, will be able to pinpoint the PC's, and ensnare them in the nets they have. The rest is just knocking them out and hauling them away. :D
Kalanth 09-12-03, 03:08 PM	Let us know how it turns out. ;)
Laranis Callirr 09-12-03, 03:09 PM	This will happen on Tuesday evening, so I'll let you guys know on Wednesday. :D
Giant in the Playground 09-12-03, 03:17 PM	For real efficiency, use Strength poison on the first wave of arrows. That will reduce the ability of the PCs to fight AND make the nets more effective. It also won't risk killing them like Con poison does. EDIT: I had originally suggested Wisdom poison to go with the sleep tactic, but then I noticed that he had changed gears, so I restated my idea. Of course, I was quoted between then and now, so I'm adding this back in...
Kalanth 09-12-03, 03:20 PM	Originally posted by Giant in the Playground For real efficiency, use Wisdom poison on the first wave of arrows, with the last arrow shot being the sleep gas. That way, the PCs will have lowered Will saves against the sleep and the bandits don't risk killing them accidentally with Con poison. I never thought about that, the Wis idea is a great one. I usually determine the Con poisons almost like a traquilizer, takes some time but has the same effect, and if they go past 0 they just fall unconcious instead of dying. I will let the player know if the poison is deadly when they hit 0. After all, not every poison has to kill, does it? :rolleyes:
Whaledawg 09-12-03, 03:28 PM	More important than darkness is silence. It prevents the mage and cleric from casting most anything and it prevents the mage from waking everyone up. Also, darkness arrows dont really work. You would have to aim, then cast darkness on it then fire. You would have to be Robin Hood to make the arrow land by the party in those conditions. Stones would be hard too, but easier to get within range of the party(less chance of it flying too far). As a side note, you do realise that temp con damage comes back at like 1 pt per day, dont you? That means you might as well keep them prisoner for a long time, unless their cleric can heal that(I dont know off the top of my head). I would cast silence on an arrow, shoot that into the group so when the mage screamed no one would get up. Then attack, if the PC's look like they will win I would THEN cast darkness. That would be the signal for the brigands to back out(dragging incaped PC's with them). Then simply sit and wait for the PC's to come out, they will have a hard time organising a coordinated escape in the dark without sound. Most likly they will blunder out 1 at a time and get mauled. Or they will sit and wait it out leaving plenty of time for overwhelming assistance to arrive.
Erus 09-12-03, 03:30 PM	hmmm If I were a bandit, trying to capture a group of adventurers... what would I do to make sure I got them all alive, and make sure as few of my people were killed as possible... Nets, and sleep arrows are excellent, but a few good rolls could stick ya... Don't forget the incredible use of Grapple and Trip. 3-5 bandits jumping on your mostly phisically small party will do wonders to making sure they don't get up and swing big weapons at the bandits.. what I would do as the DM, aka bandit leader... I would wait till the sun elf was on guard, and take him out.... Silence cast on a few front line bandits allow for archers to sneak up on said guard... 5 archers pelt the ground around your guard with sleep arrows, causing him to make a save vs each one. Odds say he fails. BUT... we all know how odds work... at the same time the archers release, the silenced fighters rush the mage, and grapple him. If this is successful, the silenced fighters can dispach, (ie: tie up and remove) the guard, and silently go to each helpless PC and Grapple them while prone and tie them up. Bandits are not stupid, well, most arn't. they will take out casters as they ready more quickly than a fighter who must don armor etc to be an enormous threat. Caster types go first... the 1/2 orc and Dwarf go last as they pose the greatest physical threat to the folks attempting to tie them up. I would describe to your players what is happening the entire time, even though their characters are asleep. If you don't do this, you may as well read them a background and begin the play already in bandit custody. Good luck, and don't forget to expect the unexpected from your Players..! Erus
Giant in the Playground 09-12-03, 03:43 PM	Originally posted by Kalanth I never thought about that, the Wis idea is a great one. I usually determine the Con poisons almost like a traquilizer, takes some time but has the same effect, and if they go past 0 they just fall unconcious instead of dying. I will let the player know if the poison is deadly when they hit 0. After all, not every poison has to kill, does it? :rolleyes: Well, officially have a Con of 0 means you are dead, but there's nothing wrong with playing it that way either. The reason I suggested Wisdom (and then Strength) is that chances are, your bandits are not going to be able to pump enough poison into the PCs in one round to knock them out, and having a lowered Con does not effectively hamper their counter attack. Wisdom poison will help them achieve the knock-out via sleep easier and quicker, by reducing everyone's Will save by 1-4 points (assuming it was, say, 2d4 Wisdom damage poison). As a bonus, it will also lower their Spot and Listen scores (allowing them to Hide better), and might even prevent the cleric from casting some spells. Strength poison will make it harder for the PCs to break free of the nets, as well as weakening any melee attacks the PCs make before being captured. Remember, the goal of the ambush should be to get the knock-out as quick as possible with as few casualties as possible (assuming your bandits aren't fanatics willing to die). Everything they should do should be engineered within their capacity to maximize that goal. It would not be out of line to have a plan of round-by-round actions that the bandits will take in a certain order; real-life ambushers would do exactly that.
Ikek-boy 09-12-03, 04:10 PM	As a Gm (and a ambusher) i think i would just take the easy way out. If this man who wan'ts to capture them have enough money, simply use a few wizards to cast web, and pump them full of arrows with sleeping poison (this does exist). Or the High lvl variant, mass invisibilty, two rgues ind and subdual sneak attack the wizard (she WILL go down), and then have some more rogues sneak ind, and do the same to the others, they won't even notice what hit them. Or the much more brutal way, only needing a cleric, Beat the crap out of them, tie them up and let a cleric heal them so they survive. easy way i know works, at least they does RL (though you have to miss the magic, but the concept is the same
Laranis Callirr 09-12-03, 04:31 PM	Whoa. Lots of feedback, thanks. :D Again, I hadn't thought of the silence arrows either. Casting silence on an arrow and then shooting it in the middle of the group will be an excellent method. The fighters can then come in (also silenced) and tie up the mage, followed by grabbing the others. Here's a plan of how it should go, round by round. Round 1: A bandit shoots a silence arrow in the middle of the group, probably behind the mage. At the same time, three fighters, who are also silenced, begin to rush towards the group. If the party is sleeping in a more spread-out formation, more arrows will be shot. Round 2: One fighter throws a net onto the mage, trapping her. If this fails, the other fighter rushes in to try to grapple her. Round 3: The mage is neutralized. The fighters move on to the party, who hopefully, should still be asleep. If not, they will be shot during this round with STR reducing arrows, or Rays of Enfeeblement. Then the fighters will come in and try to net them all. Round 4: Once the whole party is netted, the fighters proceed to tie the PC's up, and knock them out with a good bash on the head. Hopefully, it should all be over in these four rounds. If not, then the fighters will simply use brutish attacks and deal subdual damage. Otherwise, the ambushing party's spellcasters can cast spells like Hold Person and sleep, together with the archers shooting Wis reducing arrows.
kalniel 09-12-03, 04:35 PM	If the bandits can get someone sneaky, then wait til the mage is on duty, sneak up to her and put a knife to her throat. Wake the rest up and tell them if they don't surrender, the mage gets it. That might be a little hard to escape, so an alternative is to set a normal ambush (arrows etc) but have the bandits deliberately try to subdue the mage. Once achieved put a knife to her throat and ask her to shout to the others to stop fighting. It's always fun when you have one of the players do the demanding to surrender for you.
Wayward Son 09-15-03, 10:41 AM	*chuckling* I just had a flash of the initial silenced arrow landing. DM: Ok, roll a Listen check. Elf player: Ok *roll* that's a 26. DM: You hear nothing. :rofl: Seriously, I'm with the majority here. Silence the attackers beforehand, take down the sentry with your sleep gas or arrows with a sleep toxin, then take down each party member in turn, starting with the casters, ending with the bricks. Bring nets for the big guys, and lots more sleep toxin. Masterwork manacles are a bargain at the price, too. :D More for adding insult to injury, unless there is some overriding reason not to do so, the characters should be stripped naked prior to being bound, too. There's far fewer places to hide lockpicks that way, and they will need to find clothes before they can escape without notice. Besides, not everyone can afford such fine clothes, or clothes at all, so the bandits will want to split them up as part of the plunder from the job. The same goes for their weapons, armor, equipment and magic items, none of it should be sitting around in a pile after they escape. Even items the bandits can't use will be sold for gold, likely at far less than market cost (it's all profit to the bandits). Unless the group can escape within a few hours, most of their gear will be scattered when they get free.
airhead 09-15-03, 12:55 PM	Not a good idea. "Immunity to magic sleep effects..." Get an arcane archer with the bandits to imbue arrows. (then it's legal). Silence & Hold Person on the elf guard then wake the rest of the party up at the end of a rapier (helpless/coup de gras) telling them to surrender.
Laranis Callirr 09-15-03, 01:26 PM	Originally posted by airhead Not a good idea. "Immunity to magic sleep effects..." Oh, um... heh. :D That was... a test! Yes, to see who would spot that first. Yup. :P Anyhow, thanks for pointing out my mistake there, airhead. Rules-wise, would the bandits be able to coup-de-grace the players on their first movement? The problem with that is if the PCs try any sudden movements, then they'd be getting a surprise round. Perhaps it'd be better to net them first before waking them up?
CaoSlayer 09-15-03, 01:29 PM	A drows patroll with some mages, they can cast circle of invisibily allowing them to sunround the party without noticing it. The can be captured to be slaves.
Mister Mayhem 09-15-03, 01:49 PM	Obvious point - don't silence the party, silence the first arrow (or net) you fire at them. If you have plenty of bandits, use tanglefoot bags *and* nets.
BenjCano 09-15-03, 01:57 PM	The problem here is that you have a party consisting of 3 elves, Sun, Moon, and Avariel. None of whom need to sleep. All of whom are immune to sleep spells and effects. Whether this confers immunity to non-magical sleep effects (ie poison and toxin) is a debateable point. What this does mean is that with this paticular party, there is no reason, no reason at all, why they would ever set up a camp with fewer than two people on guard. Shift 1 (0 hours to 3 hours of camp)- The Half-Orc and the Sun Elf take first guard and talk softly as the others rest. Shift 2 (3 hours to 6 hours of camp)- The Half-Orc retires, but the Moon Elf and the Avariel have gotten all the trance they need. Three elves on watch. Shift 3 (6 hours to 8 hours of camp)- The Sun Elf beds down to trance and rouses the dwarf. The Avariel, Moon Elf, and dwarf take the dawn shift. If your PCs are at all paranoid (and most PCs should be paranoid), I see no reason why they should't have Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound for an extra guard, Hallucinatory Terrain to hide their campsite, Leomund's Secure Shelter or Rope Trick so that they can't be randomly attacked, or even just a good old alarm.
Laranis Callirr 09-15-03, 02:06 PM	Thankfully, they don't guard like that. It's one person per 4 hour shift, usually beginning with the Moon Elven mage, who studies her spells during one of the hours which she guards. I pretty much forgot about the fact that Elves are immune to sleep, I was typing the post up in a big rush, and I suppose I must have ignored that rule for a moment. I've already scrapped the sleep poison idea a few posts above, and have made a round by round plan as to what the bandits will do. Beginning with a silenced arrow with STR poison on the mage, followed by getting her into a net, and then the capture of the rest of the party.
mercurial67 09-15-03, 03:29 PM	Originally posted by Erus I would describe to your players what is happening the entire time, even though their characters are asleep. If you don't do this, you may as well read them a background and begin the play already in bandit custody. Good luck, and don't forget to expect the unexpected from your Players..! Erus Don't forget that sleeping character get to make listen checks as well. They just get -10 to their roll. If you don't want to make them feel railroaded, give them some chances to escape. Just make sure the rogues have a good plan. Saps to do subdual sneak attack damage can be effective. You could also have magical arrows with the equivalent of ray of enfeblement cast on them. This would do 1d6+1 str damage (no save) which would go away after three minutes (assuming level three caster). This way they would be easily captured, but it won't be plaguing them like poison would for several days.
BenjCano 09-15-03, 04:21 PM	Now that you mention it... Sleeping characters get -10 to their Listen checks. Since elves don't sleep, only trance, do they get to make an unpenalized Listen check?