An Elan Problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Elan Problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hammith
07-25-06, 12:44 PM Elan PC: Alright, I use Mind Thrust on one of the archers behind the line of warriors
DM: He seems to have been waiting for some sign of magical forces and shoots you with an arrow as you start to manifest.
*roll*
DM: Hit, for...6 damage.
Elan PC: I'll use Resilliance to make the damage 0. Do I still have to roll for concentration?
DM: I...have no idea.

I'm currently running a campaign with two Elans in it, one a Psion, the other an Ardent. I've been planning on using readied actions to reduce some of the damage from magic/psi-users durring the campaign, but have run into a problem with the Resilliance power that Elans have. Do they require a Concentration roll if the use the power to reduce damage down to nothing? After looking at the power in the SRD, I'm not sure they can even reduce it below zero. In that case, do they make a Concentration roll before or after using the power?

Resilience (Su): When an elan takes damage, she can spend power points to reduce its severity. As an immediate action, she can reduce the damage she is about to take by 2 hit points for every 1 power point she spends.

Thanks for the Help
Arganis
07-25-06, 12:53 PM I can't speak to whether or not Resilience can reduce damage to 0, but if it, the player does not need to make a Concentration roll.

I have an additional question to add to this. Can a character even use an Immediate Action while casting a spell without losing the spell?
hiryuu
07-25-06, 01:13 PM Since the readied action goes off before the action, then yes.

Since they took the hit, they need to make a Concentration check, but the DC is as normal (they took 0 damage).
Hammith
07-25-06, 01:48 PM I have an additional question to add to this. Can a character even use an Immediate Action while casting a spell without losing the spell?

Umm, that's an even better question. I can't really conclude much of an answer from what the SRD say about Immediate, Swift, and Free Ations. I think it is possible to do so, but I'm open to interpretations from others.

Free Action
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.

Swift Action
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

Immediate Action
An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.
Arganis
07-25-06, 02:06 PM "Realism" logic aside, I think Hiryuu encapsulates the spirit of the RAW in his statement:

Since the readied action goes off before the action, then yes.

To use an implausible example, suppose there is an assassin with a readied action to shoot the king when he comes around the corner. Behind the assassin is a soldier with a readied action to disarm the assassin if he notices any hostile behavior. Behind the soldier is a second assassin with a readied action to grapple the soldier if he tries to stop the first assassin. Behind the second assassin is the Hero with a readied action to Hold Person the second assassin if he attacks the soldier.

The king comes around the corner, the dominos fall, and even though the Hero's action was declared last, and hinges on 3 other actions, by the time the king's turn is over, initiative order is:

Hero
Second Assassin
Soldier
First Assassin
King

Though Immediate Actions are not explicitly stated to function as readied actions, conventional interpretation allows them to be declared in response to an action and resolved before that action.

Therefore, as far as gameplay mechanics are concerned:

Archer readies action
Elan declares spellcasting
Archer declares release of readied action
Archer resolves attack
Elan uses an immediate action to mitigate damage dealt
Elan resolves spellcasting, no concentration necessary

So, since the Elan's immediate action is in response to a readied action, it actually occurs before he begins casting the spell.

Regardless, I believe Hiryuu is wrong on his second point. The wording of spell interruption is pretty clear: "If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting)"

It doesn't say "if you are hit" it says "if you take damage".
hiryuu
07-25-06, 02:08 PM Ah, see, I interpreted as him taking damage, then reducing that damage to 0, thus taking, well, 0 damage. Either way, it's a painfully easy Concentration check, one he should be able to make in his sleep.
utilitarian
07-25-06, 02:45 PM Aye, just calculate the Concentration roll using 0 for the damage taken. I mean, that's what happened isn't it? (he got attacked, and took 0 damage) S'what I'd do.
Arganis
07-25-06, 02:58 PM So it is your contention that "No damage" and "0 damage" are not the same thing? That "0 damage" is, in fact, some kind of damage?

This is like saying that two things can never be totally different since they will always have a lack of similarity in common. It's an interesting thing to consider but there is no distinction between the two in the ruleset.

I for one would consider Resilience to function similarly to DR.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target's damage reduction do not disrupt spells.

Further, since the Resilience special ability does not specifically state that there is a minimum to which damage can be reduced, it is probably safe to assume that you can reduce it to 0.
hiryuu
07-25-06, 03:18 PM Yeah, no damage in the first place is quite different than 0 damage, just like how not eating a nutrient is very different from being not able to process that nutrient; it's treated in different ways.

However, whatever works is fine, which is why I said that any primary caster should be able to make that Concentration check like nobody's business, so it's probably not worth making him roll the check, anyway. SInce there's no hard ruling on it, and we could therefore argue all day, it's up to the GM at this point.
Arganis
07-25-06, 03:39 PM Yeah, no damage in the first place is quite different than 0 damage, just like how not eating a nutrient is very different from being not able to process that nutrient; it's treated in different ways.

However, whatever works is fine, which is why I said that any primary caster should be able to make that Concentration check like nobody's business, so it's probably not worth making him roll the check, anyway. SInce there's no hard ruling on it, and we could therefore argue all day, it's up to the GM at this point.

You're not right, you're just not wrong. :D
Szat
07-25-06, 03:58 PM A slight side topic. But I thought that most Psions don't manifest distinctly visible effects in regards to their powers. Could the archer even know he was manifesting. Also, you can only ready actions during a round in which initiative has been rolled......so unless you're just loosely following the rules....
Hammith
07-25-06, 04:11 PM A slight side topic. But I thought that most Psions don't manifest distinctly visible effects in regards to their powers. Could the archer even know he was manifesting. Also, you can only ready actions during a round in which initiative has been rolled......so unless you're just loosely following the rules....

Actually most powers have some sort of effect that shows the manifester is doing something. The type of effects are: Auditory, Material, Mental, Olfactory, and Visual. I'm not too sure which of them (if any) Mind Thrust displays, but it was mainly just an example to show the problem. In this particular campaign, Psionics are quite common, and as such the effects are recognized to be power-using signs.
hiryuu
07-25-06, 04:24 PM You're not right, you're just not wrong. :D

Heh. I think that's what I was trying to get at.

Man, I love D&D's kooky rules.
Arganis
07-25-06, 04:58 PM Actually most powers have some sort of effect that shows the manifester is doing something. The type of effects are: Auditory, Material, Mental, Olfactory, and Visual. I'm not too sure which of them (if any) Mind Thrust displays, but it was mainly just an example to show the problem. In this particular campaign, Psionics are quite common, and as such the effects are recognized to be power-using signs.

Mind Thrust is auditory... which is a shame. If it were auditory and visual, I would be all about the KitH "I'm crushing your head!" move.
thaylok
07-25-06, 05:04 PM I can't speak to whether or not Resilience can reduce damage to 0, but if it, the player does not need to make a Concentration roll.

I have an additional question to add to this. Can a character even use an Immediate Action while casting a spell without losing the spell?

Normally, there is a limit on powerpoints one can augment a power by (up to manafester level)... I would need to get out my book and review the power completely to determine if the ability can reduce damage completely to 0... :confused:

But as for a concentration check.. oh yes.. require it... and if it fails.. damage as normal..

I'd also have to check the power being used.. if it's only indication was only a humm... would the archer have been able to hear the noise?.... Listen checks would be needed... if the manafester glowed.. obvious for an archer.. fire away.. if not, I'd try to be fair about it... :D
Milo HoBo
07-25-06, 05:08 PM Actually most powers have some sort of effect that shows the manifester is doing something. The type of effects are: Auditory, Material, Mental, Olfactory, and Visual. I'm not too sure which of them (if any) Mind Thrust displays, but it was mainly just an example to show the problem. In this particular campaign, Psionics are quite common, and as such the effects are recognized to be power-using signs.

These things do happen, but as a result of the power. IIRC They happen after the power is manifest. The way you can tell a manifester is manifesting is a look of intense concentration. That standing still for a moment and looking off into the distance provokes an attack of oppertunity and is how you can tell before the power goes off.
Milo HoBo
07-25-06, 05:12 PM Normally, there is a limit on powerpoints one can augment a power by (up to manafester level)... I would need to get out my book and review the power completely to determine if the ability can reduce damage completely to 0... :confused: ....

Yes, there is a limit on how many powerpoints can be spent on a power, however Resiliance is a supernatural ability and is not subject to the manifester cap. Otherwise, Elans that don't have a manifester level couldn't use their racial abilities.
Daeger
07-25-06, 07:17 PM I don't care what anyone says about resilience not being good because it eats your swift action - no other ability can take as much punishment like that.

Operating off the logic of the readied action going off before the actual action.. if that's how it works, what's the point of specifying what you're readying for? The person attacking the manifester is waiting for him to manifest, and when he does, attack. My interpretation of it is that it happens before the character's action finishes, thus making it your own call whether or not you can use the action within an action without disrupting the spell.

This isn't Magic: The Gathering, people. Use some logic!
Arganis
07-26-06, 09:17 AM This isn't Magic: The Gathering, people. Use some logic!

This is an ironic statement considering your post has little logic in it. I wouldn't mind a more thorough explanation of your middle paragraph.
runestar
07-26-06, 10:32 AM Logic really has no place in dnd. :( What do you expect from the same company that produced M:TG? ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hammith 07-25-06, 12:44 PM	Elan PC: Alright, I use Mind Thrust on one of the archers behind the line of warriors DM: He seems to have been waiting for some sign of magical forces and shoots you with an arrow as you start to manifest. roll DM: Hit, for...6 damage. Elan PC: I'll use Resilliance to make the damage 0. Do I still have to roll for concentration? DM: I...have no idea. I'm currently running a campaign with two Elans in it, one a Psion, the other an Ardent. I've been planning on using readied actions to reduce some of the damage from magic/psi-users durring the campaign, but have run into a problem with the Resilliance power that Elans have. Do they require a Concentration roll if the use the power to reduce damage down to nothing? After looking at the power in the SRD, I'm not sure they can even reduce it below zero. In that case, do they make a Concentration roll before or after using the power? Resilience (Su): When an elan takes damage, she can spend power points to reduce its severity. As an immediate action, she can reduce the damage she is about to take by 2 hit points for every 1 power point she spends. Thanks for the Help
Arganis 07-25-06, 12:53 PM	I can't speak to whether or not Resilience can reduce damage to 0, but if it, the player does not need to make a Concentration roll. I have an additional question to add to this. Can a character even use an Immediate Action while casting a spell without losing the spell?
hiryuu 07-25-06, 01:13 PM	Since the readied action goes off before the action, then yes. Since they took the hit, they need to make a Concentration check, but the DC is as normal (they took 0 damage).
Hammith 07-25-06, 01:48 PM	I have an additional question to add to this. Can a character even use an Immediate Action while casting a spell without losing the spell? Umm, that's an even better question. I can't really conclude much of an answer from what the SRD say about Immediate, Swift, and Free Ations. I think it is possible to do so, but I'm open to interpretations from others. Free Action Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. Swift Action A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn. Immediate Action An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.
Arganis 07-25-06, 02:06 PM	"Realism" logic aside, I think Hiryuu encapsulates the spirit of the RAW in his statement: Since the readied action goes off before the action, then yes. To use an implausible example, suppose there is an assassin with a readied action to shoot the king when he comes around the corner. Behind the assassin is a soldier with a readied action to disarm the assassin if he notices any hostile behavior. Behind the soldier is a second assassin with a readied action to grapple the soldier if he tries to stop the first assassin. Behind the second assassin is the Hero with a readied action to Hold Person the second assassin if he attacks the soldier. The king comes around the corner, the dominos fall, and even though the Hero's action was declared last, and hinges on 3 other actions, by the time the king's turn is over, initiative order is: Hero Second Assassin Soldier First Assassin King Though Immediate Actions are not explicitly stated to function as readied actions, conventional interpretation allows them to be declared in response to an action and resolved before that action. Therefore, as far as gameplay mechanics are concerned: Archer readies action Elan declares spellcasting Archer declares release of readied action Archer resolves attack Elan uses an immediate action to mitigate damage dealt Elan resolves spellcasting, no concentration necessary So, since the Elan's immediate action is in response to a readied action, it actually occurs before he begins casting the spell. Regardless, I believe Hiryuu is wrong on his second point. The wording of spell interruption is pretty clear: "If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting)" It doesn't say "if you are hit" it says "if you take damage".
hiryuu 07-25-06, 02:08 PM	Ah, see, I interpreted as him taking damage, then reducing that damage to 0, thus taking, well, 0 damage. Either way, it's a painfully easy Concentration check, one he should be able to make in his sleep.
utilitarian 07-25-06, 02:45 PM	Aye, just calculate the Concentration roll using 0 for the damage taken. I mean, that's what happened isn't it? (he got attacked, and took 0 damage) S'what I'd do.
Arganis 07-25-06, 02:58 PM	So it is your contention that "No damage" and "0 damage" are not the same thing? That "0 damage" is, in fact, some kind of damage? This is like saying that two things can never be totally different since they will always have a lack of similarity in common. It's an interesting thing to consider but there is no distinction between the two in the ruleset. I for one would consider Resilience to function similarly to DR. Attacks that deal no damage because of the target's damage reduction do not disrupt spells. Further, since the Resilience special ability does not specifically state that there is a minimum to which damage can be reduced, it is probably safe to assume that you can reduce it to 0.
hiryuu 07-25-06, 03:18 PM	Yeah, no damage in the first place is quite different than 0 damage, just like how not eating a nutrient is very different from being not able to process that nutrient; it's treated in different ways. However, whatever works is fine, which is why I said that any primary caster should be able to make that Concentration check like nobody's business, so it's probably not worth making him roll the check, anyway. SInce there's no hard ruling on it, and we could therefore argue all day, it's up to the GM at this point.
Arganis 07-25-06, 03:39 PM	Yeah, no damage in the first place is quite different than 0 damage, just like how not eating a nutrient is very different from being not able to process that nutrient; it's treated in different ways. However, whatever works is fine, which is why I said that any primary caster should be able to make that Concentration check like nobody's business, so it's probably not worth making him roll the check, anyway. SInce there's no hard ruling on it, and we could therefore argue all day, it's up to the GM at this point. You're not right, you're just not wrong. :D
Szat 07-25-06, 03:58 PM	A slight side topic. But I thought that most Psions don't manifest distinctly visible effects in regards to their powers. Could the archer even know he was manifesting. Also, you can only ready actions during a round in which initiative has been rolled......so unless you're just loosely following the rules....
Hammith 07-25-06, 04:11 PM	A slight side topic. But I thought that most Psions don't manifest distinctly visible effects in regards to their powers. Could the archer even know he was manifesting. Also, you can only ready actions during a round in which initiative has been rolled......so unless you're just loosely following the rules.... Actually most powers have some sort of effect that shows the manifester is doing something. The type of effects are: Auditory, Material, Mental, Olfactory, and Visual. I'm not too sure which of them (if any) Mind Thrust displays, but it was mainly just an example to show the problem. In this particular campaign, Psionics are quite common, and as such the effects are recognized to be power-using signs.
hiryuu 07-25-06, 04:24 PM	You're not right, you're just not wrong. :D Heh. I think that's what I was trying to get at. Man, I love D&D's kooky rules.
Arganis 07-25-06, 04:58 PM	Actually most powers have some sort of effect that shows the manifester is doing something. The type of effects are: Auditory, Material, Mental, Olfactory, and Visual. I'm not too sure which of them (if any) Mind Thrust displays, but it was mainly just an example to show the problem. In this particular campaign, Psionics are quite common, and as such the effects are recognized to be power-using signs. Mind Thrust is auditory... which is a shame. If it were auditory and visual, I would be all about the KitH "I'm crushing your head!" move.
thaylok 07-25-06, 05:04 PM	I can't speak to whether or not Resilience can reduce damage to 0, but if it, the player does not need to make a Concentration roll. I have an additional question to add to this. Can a character even use an Immediate Action while casting a spell without losing the spell? Normally, there is a limit on powerpoints one can augment a power by (up to manafester level)... I would need to get out my book and review the power completely to determine if the ability can reduce damage completely to 0... :confused: But as for a concentration check.. oh yes.. require it... and if it fails.. damage as normal.. I'd also have to check the power being used.. if it's only indication was only a humm... would the archer have been able to hear the noise?.... Listen checks would be needed... if the manafester glowed.. obvious for an archer.. fire away.. if not, I'd try to be fair about it... :D
Milo HoBo 07-25-06, 05:08 PM	Actually most powers have some sort of effect that shows the manifester is doing something. The type of effects are: Auditory, Material, Mental, Olfactory, and Visual. I'm not too sure which of them (if any) Mind Thrust displays, but it was mainly just an example to show the problem. In this particular campaign, Psionics are quite common, and as such the effects are recognized to be power-using signs. These things do happen, but as a result of the power. IIRC They happen after the power is manifest. The way you can tell a manifester is manifesting is a look of intense concentration. That standing still for a moment and looking off into the distance provokes an attack of oppertunity and is how you can tell before the power goes off.
Milo HoBo 07-25-06, 05:12 PM	Normally, there is a limit on powerpoints one can augment a power by (up to manafester level)... I would need to get out my book and review the power completely to determine if the ability can reduce damage completely to 0... :confused: .... Yes, there is a limit on how many powerpoints can be spent on a power, however Resiliance is a supernatural ability and is not subject to the manifester cap. Otherwise, Elans that don't have a manifester level couldn't use their racial abilities.
Daeger 07-25-06, 07:17 PM	I don't care what anyone says about resilience not being good because it eats your swift action - no other ability can take as much punishment like that. Operating off the logic of the readied action going off before the actual action.. if that's how it works, what's the point of specifying what you're readying for? The person attacking the manifester is waiting for him to manifest, and when he does, attack. My interpretation of it is that it happens before the character's action finishes, thus making it your own call whether or not you can use the action within an action without disrupting the spell. This isn't Magic: The Gathering, people. Use some logic!
Arganis 07-26-06, 09:17 AM	This isn't Magic: The Gathering, people. Use some logic! This is an ironic statement considering your post has little logic in it. I wouldn't mind a more thorough explanation of your middle paragraph.
runestar 07-26-06, 10:32 AM	Logic really has no place in dnd. :( What do you expect from the same company that produced M:TG? ;)