Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StrahdVonZarovich 10-13-04, 09:34 PM	Alright, as some of you may already know, I'm currently runnin' a campaign with a few players', here's the team so far : 1-Dwarven fighter lvl-8 CG 2-Human Knight lvl-5 LG(Class from Power class file, grabbed that a while ago on Kazaa, looks good so far). 3-Halfling Rogue lvl-5 CN 4-Elven Sorceress lvl-4 CN To be brief, they are currently escorting an NPC wizard who hired them to do so, 'til they reach an island where they will supposedly find ''an evil artefact'' know as the Emerauld Pendant, which is supposedly drow made, and protected inside a temple/maze. They are on a seaship right now, and the last thing they've done was to explore the ruins of a floating shipwreck, only the wizard NPC and the dwarf went to explore it. The others din't saw any point going into that thing (Rogue asides, he wasn't present at that time). Inside they've found a few gold pieces, a trapped chest who contained a myterious little box(inside of it was a deck of many things), a few scrolls, and another NPC(a thief), who was trapped down there for nearly two months. But thats not the point, the point is the other two refused to get inside the wshipwreck, 'cause they din't see any ''good reason'' to get in there. Ok, I gotta admit that aghost ship floating in the middle of the ocean, all by itself can se somethin' scary, specialy for low-lvls characters (heck even the crew of their current ship, aka pirates y'know, were afraid to get inside, they send two of their mans with the PCs nontheless), but to don't see any points to get in, jesus what do you need as an hint, maybe there's something linked to your quest inside it ? The PCs just don't make any efforts to get into the game. The Sorceress is particularly irratable, (and thats the purpose of this whole thread), she's an elf who HATES HER OWN PEOPLES FOR GOD'S SAKE ! I keep askin' that palyer, ''Why the **** are you playing elves, if you don't like them?'' '' 'Cause they're the only race who lives very, for nearly eternity'' ''Ok, but why do you keep playing females elves all the time, instead of males (ok got nothing against players who love to roleplay female char, but wait to see his reason as the why he keeps playing elven female ONLY) ? '' 'Cause males elves looks gay !'' Me(being the elf lover, that I am) : ''....no comments...'' And the worst part is I allowed his 'elf' to be a spellfire wielder, on top of that, he keeps complaining that he doesn't belong into that group, 'cause he see's no point in being there. He claims that he is NOT a low-mercenary money maker sorceress ! Jesus, I allowed him great power, a very long lifespawn, the sex he wanted for his char, and he's STILL complaining, and top of that he says my campaign sucks, because its centre on the main bad guy. ...help, suggestions...? He's really the kind of guy who uses/play elves only for their long lifespawn and their natural immunities to sleep, and god am I damn tired of this racist scum who *****es his own race all the time !? *Screams for help* A very tired DM... :mad: :confused: :weep: :mymy: :embarrass :(
Wayne 10-13-04, 09:50 PM	If a player is determined to be disruptive in the group and rude to you (and other players), then you basically have three rather logical options: accept it (probably a bad idea), talk to the player about your concerns and ask him to stop it (he might have a good reason for his attitude-- I notice he's at the lowest level in your list), or ask him to leave (the last resort, obviously). Not knowing your other players or your group dynamics, that's about as much advice as I can offer. The important thing is to remember that you and your players both have mutual obligations at the gaming table; and being disruptive is not one of them. *chuckles* Personally, I have a rule to players at character creation: your character must be willing and able to get along with the group, and your character must be amenable to traveling with them and not being problematic. No restrictions on alignment, and few on race and class-- but a loner who hates everyone and also has no interest in adventure (like your player) has no reason to be in the party, ergo; that PC leaves and the player draws up a character who can get along. It's not worth the other players' time, or yours; to deal with one person who's being intentionally troublesome. Edit: If he doesn't want to play an Elf-- and you're sure that's the main reason for his antics-- you might allow the Elan from the XPH (immortal), the Drow (you can easily alter them to be LA 0), a Half-Dragon (for a higher-level character), and so on. Although I assume the Elf thing is probably just an excuse, given your other problems with him.
astute1 10-13-04, 09:57 PM	So... simple enough. I don't know your players, but maybe he wants his character to be a complainer, and he thinks that he's doing some good rp-ing. Here's the choices I'd give the player: 1) Get your character in line. You've got to have a reason to hate elves. Are you an exile? Did a male elf rape you? Come up with something. Also, you've got to go along with the party, so come up with some reasons why you'd want to do that, too. 2) Your character leaves the party. You roll up a new character. One that isn't a spellfire-wielding elf. Maybe a level 1 human expert sailor, since you're on a boat?
funnymanmike 10-13-04, 10:04 PM	if it was my group i would say stop whining its just a game and to shut up. but its not my game so heres another suggestion have the group run across a small tribe of wood elves who belive the group has desacrated something of theirs, and if the elf gets lippy, they kill him. or any other player that gets lippy with them. then tell this player to make something else besides an elf again its just me, but i can't stand whinie players who want to do everything in the book.
The_EvilDungeon_Master 10-13-04, 10:09 PM	"An elf who hates elves" Uh... drow? :D
StrahdVonZarovich 10-13-04, 10:10 PM	If a player is determined to be disruptive in the group and rude to you (and other players), then you basically have three rather logical options: accept it (probably a bad idea), talk to the player about your concerns and ask him to stop it (he might have a good reason for his attitude-- I notice he's at the lowest level in your list), or ask him to leave (the last resort, obviously). Not knowing your other players or your group dynamics, that's about as much advice as I can offer. The important thing is to remember that you and your players both have mutual obligations at the gaming table; and being disruptive is not one of them. *chuckles* Personally, I have a rule to players at character creation: your character must be willing and able to get along with the group, and your character must be amenable to traveling with them and not being problematic. No restrictions on alignment, and few on race and class-- but a loner who hates everyone and also has no interest in adventure (like your player) has no reason to be in the party, ergo; that PC leaves and the player draws up a character who can get along. It's not worth the other players' time, or yours; to deal with one person who's being intentionally troublesome. Edit: If he doesn't want to play an Elf-- and you're sure that's the main reason for his antics-- you might allow the Elan from the XPH (immortal), the Drow (you can easily alter them to be LA 0), a Half-Dragon (for a higher-level character), and so on. Although I assume the Elf thing is probably just an excuse, given your other problems with him. The Elan from the XPH ? Expanded Psionic Handbook ? Sorry, dunno that race yet it seem(will chk it out, though, 'cause I got the book in question). I see him very clearly playing a drow, that would much of his style, though, how to bring down the LA of +2, that is a mystery to me, you'll have to explain that to me. A Half-Dragon ? That would kinda unbalance things..And IF I allow him to play as a drow, the dwarf would immdiately kills him, since they're his worst enemies after mind-flayers. I just tried to talk to him about it on MSN, but when I brough the subject on the table, he just said, ''Its your role to find me a purpose for being into that group'' and then he just went offline...
StrahdVonZarovich 10-13-04, 10:12 PM	If a player is determined to be disruptive in the group and rude to you (and other players), then you basically have three rather logical options: accept it (probably a bad idea), talk to the player about your concerns and ask him to stop it (he might have a good reason for his attitude-- I notice he's at the lowest level in your list), or ask him to leave (the last resort, obviously). Not knowing your other players or your group dynamics, that's about as much advice as I can offer. The important thing is to remember that you and your players both have mutual obligations at the gaming table; and being disruptive is not one of them. *chuckles* Personally, I have a rule to players at character creation: your character must be willing and able to get along with the group, and your character must be amenable to traveling with them and not being problematic. No restrictions on alignment, and few on race and class-- but a loner who hates everyone and also has no interest in adventure (like your player) has no reason to be in the party, ergo; that PC leaves and the player draws up a character who can get along. It's not worth the other players' time, or yours; to deal with one person who's being intentionally troublesome. Edit: If he doesn't want to play an Elf-- and you're sure that's the main reason for his antics-- you might allow the Elan from the XPH (immortal), the Drow (you can easily alter them to be LA 0), a Half-Dragon (for a higher-level character), and so on. Although I assume the Elf thing is probably just an excuse, given your other problems with him. The Elan from the XPH ? Expanded Psionic Handbook ? Sorry, dunno that race yet it seem(will chk it out, though, 'cause I got the book in question). I see him very clearly playing a drow, that would much of his style, though, how to bring down the LA of +2, that is a mystery to me, you'll have to explain that to me. A Half-Dragon ? That would kinda unbalance things..And IF I allow him to play as a drow, the dwarf would immdiately kills him, since they're his worst enemies after mind-flayers. I just tried to talk to him about it on MSN, but when I brough the subject on the table, he just said, ''Its your role to find me a purpose for being into that group'' and then he just went offline... "An elf who hates elves" Uh... drow? No...a white-elf who hates other white-elves..or if you prefer the classic term...an high-elf who hates his own peoples. But since I'm pretty sure you were being a smarth-ass..never-mind that.
funnymanmike 10-13-04, 10:19 PM	[QUOTE=StrahdVonZarovich]I just tried to talk to him about it on MSN, but when I brough the subject on the table, he just said, ''Its your role to find me a purpose for being into that group'' and then he just went offline...[QUOTE] sounds like he is being a dink man, seriously if he wants to roll play he will be there. Players shouldn't be like that, to me a adventure is where a group of adventures go on an adventure, moreso the adventures are a group of friends, like in real life. Just talk to him and ask him if he dosen't want to play, he should not show up. in the past 5 years we have cut down our regulars by 2. it sucks but it leaves the crap behind so we can play the game we only get a chance to play 3-4 hours a week.
Dash Branaghan 10-13-04, 10:24 PM	But thats not the point, the point is the other two refused to get inside the wshipwreck, 'cause they din't see any ''good reason'' to get in there. Ok, I gotta admit that aghost ship floating in the middle of the ocean, all by itself can se somethin' scary, specialy for low-lvls characters (heck even the crew of their current ship, aka pirates y'know, were afraid to get inside, they send two of their mans with the PCs nontheless), but to don't see any points to get in, jesus what do you need as an hint, maybe there's something linked to your quest inside it? Bon Soir Strahd. Players are going to react however they see fit, and the one thing you can count on is that dangling plot hooks in front of them doesn't always work. Yes, it is annoying, disappointing, depressing, and, under prolonged exposure, may lead to excessive railroading, but such is life. I have multiple ways of dealing with this. First of all, I believe in the adage "Don't put all your eggs into one basket." Which means that if something is so important that the PCs need to find it, they will. Sure, it may start off on a ghost ship, but it doesn't mean it actually has to be found there if the PCs don't go on it. It can be found somewhere else. Second, the PCs can always find clues after the fact that they are missing something else (ie. the Captains Logbook or 1st Mate's Diary or something similar) that gives them clues that they should have gone into the ship, and now they have to find it (which yields all sorts of other adventures). The PCs just don't make any efforts to get into the game. Player apathy. That is somewhat harder to deal with. Each player is different, and if they aren't in the mood to play, then you can't expect miracles out of them. Suggest to them that they need to take a break. If they agree, then it is their boredom that is causing their apathy. If they don't want to take a break, this is the perfect in to find out exactly what their problem is. As far as the player who plays elves goes, I would not allow him to play another elf until he can actually play a different style of elf. From the sounds of things, he is playing the exact same elven character, so I would tell him that he can't play an elf until he can play something different. I'm a bit of a hard ass in that sense, but if someone has played the same race or class for the last 10 characters, I make them change it up. I probably wouldn't let them get past 5 in all honesty. If he questions your decision, explain to him the problem. Assuming that the issue is merely with his characters and not with him. If the problem extends beyond the game and into personality, then maybe it's time to ask him to leave. Dash
StrahdVonZarovich 10-13-04, 10:24 PM	Yeah, I'll try to another serious conversation with him later on this night or as soon as I can...I don't think(and I hope I won't have to come to this ) I will have to ask him to leave the group or to remake another lvl-1. ..but if I have to, then I won't have the choice anymore I guess...Damn how did I said that ? Stupid crapy english skills...
Dash Branaghan 10-13-04, 10:28 PM	I just tried to talk to him about it on MSN, but when I brough the subject on the table, he just said, ''Its your role to find me a purpose for being into that group'' and then he just went offline... Sorry, but that is crap. I agree with FunnyManMike here. The player is being a dink. I would talk to the rest of the group at this point and get their take on it. Explain your frustration at the situation and ask if they would have an issue if you suspended him (or kicked him out entirely). If they consent, then next time you see him on MSN, tell him he's out. Players have as much responsibility towards making their characters fit as the DM does. It is not your job to provide them with purpose. That's his job and his character. If he doesn't want to be with the group, his character can leave, and since this is the chronicles of this particular group and not his character, he can make one that will work with the group and be a part of the story, or he can just stop playing. Time to put down your foot. Dash
Lordofthebean 10-13-04, 10:33 PM	Out of curiosity, how do the other players react to his behavior? If I was in your situation I would basically say "Shape up or ship out" because I would never want to play with a guy who acts like that. It is not the DMs job to "find a purpose" for the player, that's what roleplaying is.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-13-04, 10:34 PM	Crap ? You mean like poor excuses, or ******** ? Like being a coward ? I assume dink mean somethin' like 'being a dick' ? I'll try to talk to the others too, before the end of the week, where we usualy gathers at my place to play either D&D 3.5 or Vampire the Mascarade. And thanks for the few french words, it shows that are STILL some english canadians that aren't completly antipathic or hateful to us, Quebecers. And I don't wanna sound like a french teacher, neither try to correct you, but its 'bonsoir' all in one word and not 'bon soir'. Anyhow, never mind that, my english must sucks WAY much for me to critize your french. Lordofthebean : The others doesn't seem to have noticed yet, they haven't know him as long as I do though. The dwarf seem to not like his char too much, but since he's a player, he's trying to get along as well as he can. The human, tbeing the 'Romeo' in shining armor(he's a knight after all) always try to charm his char, and have no problems so far with his char. And as for the halfling, he just doesn't care about him, all he wants is money, and even more money.
Dash Branaghan 10-13-04, 10:55 PM	And I don't wanna sound like a french teacher, neither try to correct you, but its 'bonsoir' all in one word and not 'bon soir'. Anyhow, never mind that, my english must sucks WAY much for me to critize your french. Ah, well you can correct this for me too then: Je n'ais pas parler le francais pour dix ans, si j'ai oublier m'etudies francais. Or something like that. :D Dash
StrahdVonZarovich 10-13-04, 10:57 PM	Humm I guess the correct prounoncing would be : Je n'ai pas parler français depuis 10 ans, alors j'ai oublier mes études en français.
Encard 10-13-04, 11:08 PM	Hmm... A few things. - There's nothing wrong with playing an elf who hates elves. It's a perfectly valid character concept, and can work nicely. The problem I can see in what you said (regarding that player's behavior) is his apparent belief that he has no role in bringing his character into the party. When you talk to him (and I strongly suggest that you do), make sure to mention that figuring out his character's role in the party and reason for sticking with the other characters is as much his job as yours, since he created the character. - If he's being rude about your game... Well, let him know that you won't tolerate that for much longer. On the other hand, it might be worthwile to take a look at how you're running your game. It's possible that he has some valid complaints, and I saw a few things that worried me in your post... - Why is there a four-level difference between his character and the fighter at such a low level? In general such a large difference is a bad thing, particularly at such a low level. You might want to consider why this exists, since if the player sees it as your fault, he certainly has at least a percieved good reason to be irritated at you. - You seem to be saying he shouldn't be complaining because you let him play the character he wanted... Well, let's take a look at that for a moment. You let him play a character of a core race, of the gender he wanted. That's not something special; that's something most players would expect to have the option of doing. You also let him take a feat (Spellfire Wielder is a feat, yes? I don't have it handy at the moment) of reasonable usefulness, but presumably not game-breaking power (if you saw it as being overpowered and let him take it, then you might want to consider why you did that, because it's normally a bad thing to do). It's not a core feat, but at the same time being allowed to take something non-core doesn't preclude a player from complaining. You might want to reconsider your attitude here, because if this is how you respond to the player's complaints during the game, you're probably just making him more frustrated. And as a note... Being a character with a nice feat in a group including another character twice your level isn't "great power." It's extreme lack of power, particularly if it's a low-level sorc vs. a higher-level fighter at their level. - Characters not taking a plot hook isn't always player apathy. It can, and often is, the players roleplaying their characters rather than simply doing whatever it seems you want them to do. Don't expect characters to follow all your plot hooks; heck, if they do, you might want to take a look at your game and whether you're railroading excessively. Expecting them to do exactly what you want is just going to lead to frustration for you, and dissatisfaction for the players if you take that frustration out on them (not saying you do, but that you should be careful about it). - As a final note... if he likes stuff with a long lifespan, let him play stuff with a long lifespan. It's not as though he's being a munchkin... Increased lifespan doesn't make a low-level character any more powerful. And immunity to sleep isn't particularly impressive either. Anyways, to sum all that up... it sounds like your player's being out of line, but your DMing may actually be part of the cause of that. It would be best to examine how you run your games before being too harsh with the player. I hope this helped at least a little.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-13-04, 11:35 PM	There's nothing wrong with playing an elf who hates elves. It's a perfectly valid character concept, and can work nicely. The problem I can see in what you said (regarding that player's behavior) is his apparent belief that he has no role in bringing his character into the party. When you talk to him (and I strongly suggest that you do), make sure to mention that figuring out his character's role in the party and reason for sticking with the other characters is as much his job as yours, since he created the character. Humm alright i've seen your side of the medal, let me explain mine now ! Lets see things my way then...what would you say if one of your player would made I dunno, a human who would kill any other humans on sight ? Or a drow who would kill all other drows on a regular basis ('besides Drizzt, I don't know any other drows who've done that so far) ? If he's being rude about your game... Well, let him know that you won't tolerate that for much longer. On the other hand, it might be worthwile to take a look at how you're running your game. It's possible that he has some valid complaints, and I saw a few things that worried me in your post... He IS being rude, most of the time, and I won't let him doin' that any longer, you can bet on that. Why is there a four-level difference between his character and the fighter at such a low level? In general such a large difference is a bad thing, particularly at such a low level. You might want to consider why this exists, since if the player sees it as your fault, he certainly has at least a percieved good reason to be irritated at you. Because, he was 'inserted' into the campaign a long while after the others. Its as simple as that, really. Yes, I too, know of how much frustratin' it is to see a much highter lvl char comparing to the rest of the team, specialy since the fighter will soon be lvl-9 ! (His XP is somethin' like 35600/38000 I think) However, I don't see myself givin' more monsters to the rest of the team, and not to the dwarf, that would rather make him very mad at me, at least I think so. You seem to be saying he shouldn't be complaining because you let him play the character he wanted... Well, let's take a look at that for a moment. You let him play a character of a core race, of the gender he wanted. That's not something special; that's something most players would expect to have the option of doing. You also let him take a feat (Spellfire Wielder is a feat, yes? I don't have it handy at the moment) of reasonable usefulness, but presumably not game-breaking power (if you saw it as being overpowered and let him take it, then you might want to consider why you did that, because it's normally a bad thing to do). It's not a core feat, but at the same time being allowed to take something non-core doesn't preclude a player from complaining. You might want to reconsider your attitude here, because if this is how you respond to the player's complaints during the game, you're probably just making him more frustrated. And as a note... Being a character with a nice feat in a group including another character twice your level isn't "great power." It's extreme lack of power, particularly if it's a low-level sorc vs. a higher-level fighter at their level. See my quote, the one just above this one. But, I do NOT agree with you on point there, spellfire can be extremely devastating, specialy when unleashed on a seaship...see the Forgotten Realm Campaign setting book for specifications about this. haracters not taking a plot hook isn't always player apathy. It can, and often is, the players roleplaying their characters rather than simply doing whatever it seems you want them to do. Don't expect characters to follow all your plot hooks; heck, if they do, you might want to take a look at your game and whether you're railroading excessively. Expecting them to do exactly what you want is just going to lead to frustration for you, and dissatisfaction for the players if you take that frustration out on them (not saying you do, but that you should be careful about it). Yeah, maybe your right on this one, I should NOT expect them to do always what I planed in advance for them. - As a final note... if he likes stuff with a long lifespan, let him play stuff with a long lifespan. It's not as though he's being a munchkin... Increased lifespan doesn't make a low-level character any more powerful. And immunity to sleep isn't particularly impressive either. Humm like what, 'sides elves I don't any other long lifespan race ? Well, maybe, this Ellam whom Dash talked about ? Anyways, to sum all that up... it sounds like your player's being out of line, but your DMing may actually be part of the cause of that. It would be best to examine how you run your games before being too harsh with the player. I hope this helped at least a little. Yeah, you helped me, even helped me alot. Thanks.
funnymanmike 10-13-04, 11:40 PM	as someone who was born and raised in N.B. at the quebec border and lives in ontario, quebec seriously needs to chill out and relax, they have lots to offer but react to everything, ontario being US wannabies sees this and pushes their buttons. thats aside from it, i hope everything works out for your group of people StrahdVonZarovich.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-13-04, 11:45 PM	Chill out ? You wouldn't say that if you had been raised here...'nyhow I should not talk about politics here. I promised I wouldn't anymore. Thanks for the good-luck for my group. P.S. I agree with your view of Ontario though... Oh and to hell with it, can't stand it any longer : PAUL MARTIN SUCKS ! Ah, I feel so much better now. 'Nyway back on topic.
Paradoxism 10-14-04, 12:00 AM	I had a player named Dink once. He was young, brash, and, dare I say it, a bit slow. A small farmboy from... a farm? It would seem as if contention exists on both sides... You can't expect the players to just waltz into a deserted shipwreck, in the middle of the ocean, at low-levels, and be secure. In all honesty, they were probably terrified that you were going to kill them. (Would YOU go into a situation like that?) I recommend that if you absolutely MUST lead them somewhere you appeal to their characters interests. However, I strongly STRONGLY recommend you don't force players to do anything. If they don't feel like they are in control of their own characters then you had better expect some resentment coming your way. If a player dies from something that happened they should never look at you and go, "Why did you do that?!" They should look at themselves, grin sheepishly, and say, "Well, I'm an idiot for doing that." Let them make their own choices... but remember, through subterfuge, you give them the choices. You've got to learn to make things work to your advantage. If they don't check something out that is essential to your game, then keep them guessing about the vast treasures and adventures they just lost out on. Curiousity is your greatest weapon, their greatest weakness. I wouldn't go investigate some drap, dreary, and dreadful looking ship... but I would go investigate above stated ship if you told me that rumors say large chests of gold are stashed on it. Appeal to their character's interest, and in the event that they are crappy role-players (like this Dink fellow), then appeal to their personal interests. Dink... ole Dink. I sure do miss him. Sorry, reminiscing... this Dink sounds like he doesn't really know what roleplaying is, and that you two have been friends for awhile so it's okay for him to annoy you. It seems as if he's doing this to get under skin as well... and it sounds like he's suceeding. I'm pretty certain you won't tell him to bugger off, so here's a reasonable suggestion: Change his character to fit his personality. Obviously this guy is no Marlon Brando, so you can't expect him to become a good role-player over one MSN session. Don't attack or accuse him, you'll just make him close up like a clam. If you make him feel as if he's the problem, then you'll never get through to him. Find out what he wants, figure out what you want, and then make a compromise. Elves are gay. Okay. So what do you do from there? Has he ever considered a half-elf? They're semi-reclusive, not gay looking (they grow facial hair), and they live a might bit longer than humans. Tell him that old age isn't going to be a factor in your game, not to mention that in a world of magic, might, and mystery he can always do a quest for a Potion of Youth or some such. Compromise, compromise, compromise. If you just tell him to **** off, then the only thing you'll accomplish is to **** him off, and the other players will think that you didn't even try. They may agree with your decision to your face, but inside they will be thinking, "Would he do that to me too?" If absolutely no compromise can be made, then maybe it's time for him to find a new group. Always try to compromise first. I just hate that way because the next group he finds (and he will find one) will have to deal with all the baggage he's got. If he's your friend, or you at least know him well, then you should be able to resolve the situation. That's what being a DM is all about. You are the resoluter. Judge, jury, and executioner. It's not a fun job all the time, but the ends justify the means. Most importantly, remember this: D&D is a game. It should in no way be considered on obligation. If your stressed, take a break. If your tired, take a nap. Don't be afraid to postpone things. And remember that a cool mind can solve more things that heated emotions. One more thing: I'm not saying to take any of his crap. You try to compromise, if he just shuts you down and doesn't listen (granted that you were being civil), then I would tell him to bugger off and find a new group or change his attitude quickly. It's harsh, but sometimes you've got to be. I also agree with Dash (yeah, yeah, eat it up, Branaghan). He's exactly on point with what he said about playing the same type of character all the time. Roleplaying is exactly what it sounds like. You DON'T play someone that always shares your beliefs and ideas (i.e., like always playing a female elf because male elves look gay and because elves live for a long time). The first thing I ask a player is what he/she traditionally plays. Normally the player enthusiastically responds with their favorite class to play. Foolish on their part. Then I laugh manically and inform them that they can play anything they want... except what they just said. At first they may seem a bit sodden, but their spirits will improve. (Okay, so I don't laugh manically). Also remember to use empowerment. Make them feel as though their character is important or can accomplish things. At low-levels you don't get many PCs that are brave, because they don't want their character to die, but you'd be surprised how much a bar fight (with the PCs winning of course) can improve your party's morale. They may not be able to beat up that Ancient Red Dragon, but they can beat up some bar thugs that pick on the waitresses and give the proprietor a hard time. Make them heroes and they will love you, make them lose every fight or barely scrape through and a big glass of haterade, extra bitter, will be coming your way. Sometimes you have to lift their spirits. But there's a victory in defeat as well. Enough rambling from me!
Pyriel 10-14-04, 12:04 AM	some people just hate there own ethnicity, take self hating jews for example.
Encard 10-14-04, 12:04 AM	Hmm... Wait, so his hatred of elves is along the lines of kill on sight, as opposed to something more like bitterness and generally nonviolent hostility? If that's the case, then yeah, I can definitely see why you're unhappy with the player. I would be too. Any character that wants to kill a major, generally good-aligned race will likely be very disruptive to gameplay... Unless the campaign's supposed to have a lot of such conflict, a character of this type (in my opinion, anyway) should not be played. In such a situation (that is, a genocidal character in a non-genocidal game), I think you're perfectly within your rights to tell him that he's either going to have to change the character's attitude to something less disruptive, or make a different character. Now, I'll note that the "I kill my own race on sight" archetype can work fine in a standard game if the character is of a traditionally evil race that the characters would see as enemies anyway (assuming social stigma doesn't cause too much of a problem). On the subject of party level difference... I'm of the opinion that when introducing new characters, it's best to keep there from being too much of a level gap, since in my experience that tends to lessen the fun of the game for many players (having characters that appear to be ineffectual compared to other characters isn't something most people like). However, this isn't something where there's really a right or wrong answer, just whatever the DM's and group's judgement on the matter is. This does bring up a question, though... Did he know what sort of group he'd be inserted into? Since if he didn't have many details on it, it could have been somewhat difficult for him to make sure his character would fit well with the group. If that's the case, it may give some credence to his belief that his character has no reason to stick around... On the other hand, most of the time a little bit of thinking about a character can solve such problems. Even if it was the case that he was inserted with too little background to make an appropriate character, make sure he's not just being a lazy bum. :P Spellfire... Managed to get a friend to look it up for me, and you're right, it's quite nice by itself. In practice, though, I'd expect it to be a bit less nice than it sounds. After all, spellfire is both very, very rare and powerful. That's a combination that helps make characters famous, and not always in a good way. As such, particularly as time goes on, enemy casters will be likely to know he has it, and act accordingly (i.e. have something mangle him while he's readying an action to absorb spells). It's a good ability, but against a smart enemy I think it's a lot less devastating than it may look. You're right though, particularly on a ship a long-range, high-damage fire attack can be quite nasty. Hmm, long lifespan races... Erg. I know I've seen some other than the Elan, but I can't think of what they are right now, sorry. Blah. On what's probably the plus side, from what you've said of the player it sounds like he might be less inclined to play a race-hating Elan than a race-hating Elf. I'm glad that I could help... Best of luck in dealing with the player successfully. :)
StrahdVonZarovich 10-14-04, 12:43 AM	Elan are effectively eternal (just read it in my own EPH), but on a sidenote, you must be a Psinonic to be one, right ? Unless, I misread something...As for the lvls matter, I'll try to resolve it as best as I can, but like I say I can't favorise the others, and the let the dwarf apart from the battles.
Cold Napalm 10-14-04, 03:51 AM	They are natural psions. They start off with like 3 psi points or something minute like that. They are immortal as far as age goes. As for level wise...I think that MAYBE starting him so low in your game for so long might have had something to do with his lack of involvenment/rudeness for his part. I'm sorry, but if I was in his place, I'd be damn rude and not very interested in you game too. I'd basically have almost no power, most thing will kill me in a hit and they WILL hit me. I'd just go blah whatever too. Ether your running the game for a level 5 party and the three players are having fun or your running a level 8 game and that one guy is having fun. Since he is almost leveled, I get the feeling it's the latter.
Shard of Suzail 10-14-04, 06:23 AM	I play in the realms, what is spellfire anyway? I know about the shadow weave, but thats about it. Can a cleric use spellfire or is it just for wizzies? Anyway, yup this player is being rude and selfish. It isnt up to the gm to make a character concept work, its up to the player. Take this example. One of my players created a half orc barbarian type. The land was in the latter stages of an orcish invasion and he decided he was a conan type, not loyal to other orcs, but trained to fight for their amusement. I said "Well, the other players will probably attack you on sight". He said "Its ok, i`m a mercenary looking for work, they`ll have me". So what does he do? He barges into town, where they are having a celebration to honour the party for killing some minotaurs. He refuses to speak to the guards and pushes past them, walking over to an archery table and taking a cooked chicken to eat. The players turn up, with a whole load of frightened guards and a big mob of townsfolk. They challenge the half orc, he rages, the party takes him down and ties him up. But he says nothing when they question him. He does not mention that he is a mercenary looking for work. He does not mention anything at all. In fact, he shows off by using his mighty strength to break the ropes. So the players killed him and had his body burned. (for any followers of my old thread involving the player who refused to fight, yup, its him again). *** He hates elves, well, if he doesnt define why then more fool him. Have elves turn up and try to kill him, powerful elves. Maybe he is actually a murderer and traitor to his race. If he doesnt like that, then he should have define his reasons. In my book, being hunted by elves is a good reason for him to be in the party, as it might help him stay alive. The sorcerer, as a class, is the most vulnerable to a foe who knows what the players can do. It isnt hard for them to prepare immunities to his spells, since they are limited in scope and would become well known by his foes. Our wizard used sleep and lightning spells over and over. Eventually we faced an assassin who was immune to both and he didnt live to see another day. I wouldnt be frustrated by having a higher level fighter in the group, he needs all the help he can get. The fighter soaks up damage and thats good for weaker characters. Its true he wont outdamage him, but he will level up fast (or should do) and that will be a real help. So, have your party harried by elven foes and keep them on the move. Then they had better be climbing about in shipwrecks and so on, as the alternative is much worse.
Primal 10-14-04, 06:53 AM	I play in the realms, what is spellfire anyway? I know about the shadow weave, but thats about it. Can a cleric use spellfire or is it just for wizzies? Spellfire is mentioned both in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Magic of Faerun. I just feel pity for the poor Knight in that group, lost amidst all that chaos :) More to the point, I don't see any reason for keeping the player in the game. If he doesn't fit, leave him out of it. It is your game after all.
Shard of Suzail 10-14-04, 07:39 AM	Yes, i know this, but i dont have those books, my GM does. Could you just give me an idea of what it is? I dont want the details, just an idea of what it is all about and whether i as a cleric will ever have anything to do with it, or if its just a thing for wizards.
Primal 10-14-04, 10:58 AM	It is an innate ability to absorb magical energy and then release it either destructively (half energy - half fire) or use it to heal. Although I do not remember details, I think that there is a feat (Spellfire Wielder) that indicates the ability and there is also a Prestige Class that expands on it. Hope it helps.
thugpoetry 10-14-04, 11:21 AM	One level lower than the lowest level character in the party...sounds about right. In my current campaign as a player, there's a level loss associated with dying. Which gives everyone incentive to NOT DIE. This fighter has obviously done something right in order to reach level 8. But...I would say that there's a problem with him being 3 levels higher than the next person. Soon to be 4. That's a major power gap, and one that needs to be addressed. Maybe a book that provides enough XP to bring them up to 6 and 7th levels in the ghost town. *shrugs* That's a huge problem for the party, though. HUGE. Being one level back sucks. Being 4 levels back... Now, on to the player. The first thing to do would be to talk to him about the character. However, since he's ignored you when you've tried to bring up the topic, you may proceed to one of two following options. 1) Put a pretty powerful elf directly in his path. If he wants to kill all elves on sight (and genocide tends to be evil, in my book) then let him try to do what he wants. 2) Take the character sheet, rip it up, and tell him that he's not allowed to play an elf anymore, since he has real life problems with the class. Nothing says that 1 and 2 can't be done right after the other. And, just for the record, if it's his character, then it is HIS SOLE RESPONSIBILTY to find a reason to adventure with this particular group. Your job as DM is to provide storyline and fun for your players. Anything dealing with in-party relationships is strictly up to the players, it's not up to you to make him feel wanted and loved. That's his problem. If his character doesn't thirst for the gold and the glory, and the rest of the party does, then that one character should probably disappear into the deeps on the ocean or something. *shrugs* In general, it sounds (from your perspective, granted) that the player in question is being a meh-head. As a DM, I don't spend upwards of 7 hours preparing for each adventuring session just for one person to bleh all over it. I'd kick his tail, either in shape or out of the game. But that's just me. Noone ever said I was the fairest of DM's.
Kittencaboodle 10-14-04, 11:46 AM	Humm I guess the correct prounoncing would be : Je n'ai pas parler français depuis 10 ans, alors j'ai oublier mes études en français. :blush: Shouldn't it be: Je n'ai parler pas français depuis 10 ans, alors j'ai oublier mes études en français. I thought the verb was included in the ne-pas phrase when describing a past event.
Grayson 10-14-04, 12:07 PM	Anyways, to sum all that up... it sounds like your player's being out of line, but your DMing may actually be part of the cause of that. It would be best to examine how you run your games before being too harsh with the player. I hope this helped at least a little. Well, this might not be well received, but it sounds like your DM style is the most likely problem. Judging from your posts, you've got, imo, a poor attitude. Because you're doing the guy a "favor" by allowing him to play a Spellfire Wielder, you expect him to be grateful. Ditto for allowing him to play a female elf (and like someone earlier said, that's a core race). Sorry, but that strikes me as pretty rude and condescending. He's also HALF the level of another party member. When a character gets replaced in any of my games, he comes in at the level of the lowest-level partymember. Not at level 1. That's just begging for players to be upset, and rightly so. I'm trying to think of a good reason why one character would be 3 levels higher than everybody else, and just can't think of one. Judging from a comment about monsters going after the dwarf, I'm guessing you're awarding XP to characters based on what they contribute to a fight or something? Lastly, expecting the players to gleefully rush off to investigate a ghost ship in the middle of the ocean? Uh.. why would their characters want to do that, if they don't think it's a good risk? Ghost ships are generally ghost ships for a reason - like something killed everyone on board, and maybe it's still over there. Or it's diseased, or cursed, or whatever. Considering there's no Cleric in your group, I'd be damn careful if I were them too. Like Dash (i believe) said - don't expect the players to take every plot hook. It sounds like your players likely get railroaded along the plot fairly often, if you're upset that they're not doing exactly what you want them to do. The guy might be being a jackass, but it sounds like he might have good reason to be.
Shard of Suzail 10-14-04, 01:04 PM	Thanks primal. Sounds pretty nifty, I shall look into it.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-14-04, 03:18 PM	Yeah, he can basicly unleash/release some amount of energy whom he previously absorbed to do damage in some kind of ray of fire ability which does 1d6 of damage per spell lvl. As an exemple, if he unleashes a third lvl spell he'll do 3d6 of fire damage, or he can use it as an healing ability instead if he wants to use it that way. I think, it has limit though, can't remeber what is it exactly...I'll chk it out later, when I'll get home (I'm at my College library right now). Grayson : Since your the only one taking his side, I'll take in consideration, that you never that had that kind of player in one of your campaign before right ? and yes, I can understand that being the lowest lvl and/or weakest char can be painful, but whats the big deal, after all its just a four lvl difference, its not the end of the world. And soon, they're gonna catch on and be at the same lvl as the dwarf anyway. I just remembered an interesting fact though, this campaign has been going for far longer then I've though, basicly they all started at lvl-1 at the same time, the dwarf, the halfling, a human(not the knight, another guy who was playing a cleric back then) another human(a paladin) and the elf, later on the elf char quited 'cause he found playin' Lineage 2 more interesting then to come play d&d with us, fine he do he wants to do, i'm not controlling his life after all. Its his, not mine. After a short while an incident broke up with the Cleric char and he was expulsed forever from our D&D group for seriously ******* off, all of us(see http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=288683 link for those of you who haven't seen this topic yet). The Paladin still come from time to time, but I think he's really busy with his studies and partying these times. Anyway the dwarf, and the halfling continued to lvl-up (the dwarf more often then the halfling since he's a fighter, and he fights mosnter more often), and then the elf char came back form time to time, along with the new knight, they quickly gained a few lvls here and there, which finaly lead us to the current result. I can inform/invite the elf char of this thread if you all wish to see his side of the story, but I must warn you he's a real elf-hater. Gonna bet somethin' like 2 millions that his handle/screenname gonna be something like Elfslayer or something among the lines of 'elf-destroyer'.
trapspringer 10-14-04, 06:00 PM	That Mew-Two guy's post immidiatly after the thread-starter hit it dead on. That is two in a row from that guy I liked. I second his statements in that post. There is only one good reason to play a femal character. You are going to be spending four hours a game contemplating the actions of four people. Hence focusing on four people. Better a female for four hours than a male.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-14-04, 08:58 PM	I'm sorry, but I don't follow your logic here...
Cold Napalm 10-14-04, 10:28 PM	"only 4 levels" huh? No wonder this guy has the attitude he has with you. I'm getting more on his side already. Those 4 levels is a TWICE what he has. I'm sorry, you did him no favor. Even if he left for a while and other too, when they came back you should have upped them a bit. Say they were off doing other adventures and gaining more exp and maybe even some treasure. ESP if it's for prolonged periods of time...like a MMORPG addiction. I'd really not care about the game if I was playing with you either at that point and be rude and basically ambivilant. Actually, I'd have quit a long time ago...not sure why this fool hasn't either. You character are currently WAY out of whack and you can't even see that as a POSSIBLE cause of your current problems. I would NEVER run a HIGH level game with 4 level difference, much less a LOW level one.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-14-04, 10:33 PM	Geee....excuse me...I'm only human y'know ! And humans do make mistakes ! And 4 lvls is not a so huge gap considerin' the fact that they're all gonna lvl-up soon enough ('cept for the dwarf of course).
funnymanmike 10-14-04, 10:51 PM	4 levels isn't that much man, besides the players should love that, everyone levels up faster beacuse he reduces the party's average CR, thus awarding them more xp. thus he levels up faster. wich in a way makes sence for the lower level guy, hanging out with people who are more experienced then you, you learn more in a shorter span of time. as for higher level guys, they have to deal with having a lower level guy to protect all the time, wich gives them the bonus xp of a reduced party level.
Cold Napalm 10-14-04, 11:27 PM	Mike...umm no, if you use average levels the lower level guys will always be around 4 levels lower since the exp chart isn't an expoential growth. The only way the lower level guys will catch up is if you do individual exp. So that CR 4 guy you fought will net the level 8 fighter near nothing while the the level 4/5 guys get some good exp out of it. A CR 8 guy will net the fighter some exp but will near level the 4/5 level guys. EVEN then, it still has problem. I'm sorry but 4 level is a HUGE problem even then. It means for the next 26 or so encounters, he will be near useless and not having much fun just tagging along. This is assuming individual exp and not party average. If you use funny man mike's he's screwed forever. That is why I'd go screw this. I have played in a high level game (average level 18) where I was only 3 level lower then the higest character and I STILL had problems of just tagging along. It ain't fun and I quickly just showed up, opened a manga and rolled a dice every once in a while...eventually I started to act like a jackass because I was bored and had nothing left to read. He eventually raised everyone's level to 20 and things became more fun and I actually got into the game then.
White rabbit 10-14-04, 11:42 PM	I've found that characters with that much difference between them turn into experience leeches. There's not much they can do in combat, but stand around and hope to not get hit. At least until they catch up to the others. And that's provisional on their surviving long enough to use the experience they've gained. And 4 levels is a HUGE difference. That's the same as saying that the dwarf is worth 4 of him (if you take what they say on the experience chart anyway). A level 4 is the same as 2 level 2s or 4 level 1s.
thugpoetry 10-15-04, 12:34 AM	I touched on this earlier, and I'll focus on it now. A four-level gap is bloody huge. At high levels. At low levels, I can see why the guy doesn't care. He's basically wasting his time while the fighter kills every monster in sight. I know from personal experience that I don't like wasting the 6-8 hours I spend at a gaming session because there's another character there that dominates. I've left a group like that, because there was no way to get closer in level and no way in the 73rd layer of the abyss that I was going to sit there and twiddle my thumbs. As DM, you do have a responsibility to make sure that everyone is having fun and is involved. Four levels worth of gap tend to make that go away, really fast, for everyone but the high level guy. With that said, a sidenote: Allowing a player to play a character that he hates, but wants to play anyway because of mechanics, IS a favor. I would have assassinated the elf-hater by now and told him to make a new character, same level (well, in this particular case, maybe up a level or two) that DOESN'T want to commit genocide. The only time I can see a genocidal elf killing elves is an evil ranger. I know I know...the sorc in question is CN. And honestly, that's not an alignment I'd allow at my table anyway. :) Main point: That gap in power is more than likely a huge source of animosity. Level up your lower levels one or two levels. Make them all only 2 levels behind the fighter. That's not nearly as bad as four levels, although it's still pretty bad. BUT. After being four levels behind, maybe they won't mind it as badly. And, of course, you can always kick his buttocks into shape or out of your game. :-D
Ryelandt 10-15-04, 12:58 AM	I'm the player he's talking about and I want to settle a few things my fair DM forgot to mention or twisted a bit. 1° I wasn't busy playing Lineage II while they were having their game, I was working those saturday nights from 4PM to midnight. I believe work justifies my lack of presence at the games. 2° I had written my character's story and had almost everything covered and told the DM about it and there he goes sticking me with a crappy " Your mother was a wizard and your father a fighter, they had you and when you were old enough they sent you to study the arcane arts under the tutelage of a blue ogre mage on island in the middle of nowhere." instead. While getting me on the same island as the PCs is ok, he ditched my detailed work in favor of his quick general story he usually makes on the spot. 3° My character's resentment toward her kind is due to the way her mother was raised in the elven culture which caused her to be created through magic instead of natural means. Of course this resentment should be directed at her mother but this is something the character will grow to learn one way or another. At no point I said I hate and would kill all elves, I said I didn't like them. 4° Character being female elf. This is roleplaying, I fail to see where is the problem with having a female character. It was the same thing with my Valkyrie who had to wear a Holy Chastity belt under Odin's decree in order to preverse her purity. 5° As for being an elf, my character's mother was an Elven High Mage for the purpose of her story and not because they have extended longevity which, if I may add, has NEVER been used in any of our games. 6° Spellfire, I don't see where he's having his beef. I never used or even remotely had the chance to. I know this is a rare and powerful power I have been granted permission to have access to.My character has a power she doesn't understand and wants to know more about it and at the same time she wants to expand her own knowledge of the arcane arts. 7° I took my responsibilities in fleshing out my character and provided hooks for adventures later in her story but DM had his way and gave me a weak unrefined story which he later modified to " Your mother was a wizard and fell pregnant through the use of her high magic and she had you, then when you were old enough she sent you to study the arcane arts under the tutelage of a blue ogre mage on island in the middle of nowhere." Then the ogre sends me to "protect" and follow the dwarf and rogue he never met and that's how my character's career as adventurer started. 8° As many of you have said, I didn't see any reason to get on the ghost ship and the crew actually did little to convince me and the knight to do so. Even the crew refused to go close to the ship so why should I go onboard while they stay on their ship which is 30 mins away in canoe ? Because the DM intended us to do so ? I'm sorry but this is a plot hook I didn't want to follow. 9° This may sound selfish for somebut I believe the slayer-type dwarf shouldn't always be the focus of the campaign. Sure he's on a mission to avenge his wife but I fail to see why this should prevent other players from having their own moment under the spotlight for once. As I said at the end of #6, my character could actually learn a bit about her power if the DM could take the focus off the dwarf for a moment. 10° The 3-4 level difference is really starting to hurt the game flow for everyone . The dwarf either slaughters the monster in the first or second round or is having the fight of his life as we can't provide enough firepower to bring it down faster than it is bringing down the dwarf's health.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-15-04, 02:10 AM	Quite frankly, I had enough on this whole matter, and about your whining. But I suppose its only fair, you had to expose them your side of the medal, thats why I gave you the damn link, but I never, NEVER would I have though you would exagerated things this worse. You get what you asked for though, so here's my final view on this whole debate. I din't forgot anything by the way, I just told MY version, as you told them YOURS. 1-Yeah, gotta agree on this, din't know this though, how the hell could I know ? Remy and the others always told me you were still playin' LineAge II. 2-Nonono boy, you din't tell anything about this, neither did you have shown me any story written on paper. 3-Maybe if you told me that earlier it would been easier for the whole gang, don't you agree ? 4-I dunno you seem kinda obessed with AD&D girls, specialy in My campaigns. As for the whole thing with your pathetic ''homemade'' class that is completely broken, the valkyrie, that is the main reason why I never allowed her into my campaign, and why I will never is because is awfuly god damn powerful ! Its basicly the result of a merging between fighter and the paladin ! I can even provide the link if some of you wants to see it. It has nothin' to do with your pathetic ''holy'' chasity belt. I have these engines that is true, 'because I find these threatments really inhumane, and as far as I know Odin never ever mentions Valkyries in Deities and Demigods. And as far as the class entry goes, it does say you have to remain a virgin yes, but they don't mention anything about forcing you to wear such a thing. I always hated god and religon though, and you defenitely knew this, and you purely provocated me with this damn religious thing, so I kinda blame it on 50/50 ya see ? Anyhow, thats besides the main purpose of this thread, and its past. (Here's the link to the document(his stupid valkyrie power and broken class)btw guys, http://www.community3e.com./dn/class/ValkyrieClass_classic.rtf and here's the page in question if the previous link doesn't work http://www.community3e.com./class2.html) 5-Lies, lies, and more lies ! You do have said it yourself ! You took that race only because of this long lifespan, nothing else. You never ever talked to me about her story. 6- You don't seem to realize how powerful this 'power' is ! I had planned something for you, but now you know what, it will never happen, since your char is banned from that campaign forever ! 7- When did you made that whole story thingy ? Never heard of it...Well as far as I can remember. And if you din't like my story, fine then, I'll try to adjust mine to try to fit it in your ''better'' ideals. And if your STILL not happy, just get out of the group, its not like we forcing you to play D&D with us anyway. I don't know for you, but I don't like WHINING char just like YOURS. 8-Because it is freaking obvious that the ****ing SHIPWRECK/GHOSTSHIP isn't there for nothing ! Why would I have it there if it wasn't for you ? C'est comme réveille sti ! Translation : Wake up damn it ! 9-And like I said it earlier too, I had already something planned for you, Simons and even Max, but since you seem to think its always the dwarf who gets all the attention, thats what you get. You would have tested your powers sooner or later, that be asure of. But since you ****** me off beyond relief, just forget it. 10- Huh, no, really thats your opinion, not mine. I really don't see whats the problem with his lvls ? He's more powerful then you, so what ? Its ****in' normal, since he's a fighter, and your a Sorcerer ! D&D logic ! Wake-up I already said I had planned something for all of you to catch on, but since you pushed me too much and ****** me off with your whining, just too bad. P.S. Your really NOT helpin' your case with all your ''J'men coliss tu d'sa sti !'' as you always say at leas 40 times a session, when we usualy play. Its true ya see, guys, I forgot to mention one thing, he's type who just doesn't care about a damn signle ****ing sthing, as long as it doesn't his char. But as soon as we give him some attention, STRANGELY, his behavior change rather drasticly, as he is now happy that we take care of him ! And I like said it, at the beginning of this post, your banned until further notices from me. Your banned for what ? For ******* me off with your damn racist remarks toward elves, and for being a constant whiner about NOT being happy with your damn storyline. Thats my final two cents about it, feel fry to think whatever you want, guys.
Cold Napalm 10-15-04, 03:02 AM	8) was NOT BLOODY OBVIOUS. I'm sorry but other didn't see it why should your players have privy to your mind?!? Sorry bucko, I suggest you chalk that up to a screw up on your end and let it go...tring to blame that on your players really does not help your cause AT ALL. Your game von, rye I suggest you find a new group, really. I would have ditch a LONG time ago. Like after seeing his second post, bye bye. Von your just making yourself look bad and throwing a temper tantrum. What did you expect any of us to actually side with you when you act like a 5 year old and your reply is oh bah screw you all at the first signs disagreement with you? Sorry, I'm not your mom...and if I were, I'd have taken a belt to you a long time ago.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-15-04, 03:11 AM	What the hell are you talking about ? You don't even know them, not like I do anyway ! I'm NOT acting like if I was 5 years old, I'm just saying my point of view ! And frankly, yes mos peoples in this thread sided with me, if it truly matters to you. But I don't care, really, I seriously we can both find a solution, but if not, then just too bad. And I wonder YOU would have done instead of me, dear Cold Napalm ? I'm sure by now, you'd be as much tired and ****** off as I am, and damn tired of his darn racist comments/remarks against elves and his contant whining about his story. Btw It doesn't 'cause he disagress, I will not agree later on, I seriously hope a compromise can be found, but if it can't, heh too bad. And would you please, leave my mom out of this ? Thank you very much.
Cold Napalm 10-15-04, 03:44 AM	MOST sided with you without looking even for the other side of the story. Some of us looked and went...humm something ain't quite right here and look you kinda blew up after that. 1) I would NEVER have a span of more then 2 levels so the party would be 8-6 at worst. I would in fact have tried to keep it more like 8-7. Rye would not be then complaining about game flow. And trust me that is an issue...even people who sided with you is telling the level span is an issue...you just don't wanna listen. But that is up to you. 2) If you somehow set-up a storyline to get him on the island...umm nope I would not have done that either. I would have told him give me a story. 3) if they ignored the ship...i.e. half the party didn't like that idea, I would have moved the big important clue somewhere else. If it was a minor clue, oh well. I would also have adjusted the encounter so the small party could have handled it better. In all truth I think the main issue is the level span really. All the rail roading aside, if you just sit and wait for the fighter to kill everything while you pray you don't get hit and die and lose yet ANOTHER level, it's no fun and at that point why should he or anyone bother to invest time in your game? A lot of rye's complaint is based of the fact that you have a character in your party that really is out of whack pretty much gets to do everything. So I would suggest you up the level 5 to level 7 almost 8 and the sorcerer to level 6 almost 7. So that when the fighter levels, everyone else should pretty much level with him. That JUST might get people back interested in your game. Why is rye only interested when his character is involved? Let's see...can't do anything in combat...can't do anything OUT of combat unless you focus one sonething important to his character so...umm yeah go figure. That isn't selfish, that's NORMAL. BTW if you are rail roading...not saying but that is one of rye's complaint...then that is bad too. If your players wanna take another road let em.
Primal 10-15-04, 05:15 AM	There is such a thing as player incompatibility you know, same as character incompatibility. I would suggest to reevaluate your gaming relationship. Roleplaying is supposed to be fun. When it stops being fun you should stop playing (at least together).
Shard of Suzail 10-15-04, 09:07 AM	Crikey, where's my tin hat so i can hide in the trenches! I think a lot of this is down to whose word you trust really. There is clearly a lot of anger here and we must all remember to keep calm and rational about this. Though i would say that the whole chastity belt thing is a bit wierd. I play female characters as standard, though i`m male. But i`ve never gone into anything like that sort of kinky detail, i just like to have a character picture i find nice to look at. Chastity belts, i feel, suggest an unneeded level of sexuality in a character idea and i wouldnt be comfortable running a game where a player was using that as an important part of his story. As such, it is an unspoken request by the player to have the gm do something about it and thats not necessarily a good request to make. And Odin, well, as far as i know, he isnt really a fan of chastity and moderation. That seems quite an alien concept with regards to norse deities, who were all about wenching and pillaging. I`m sure Valkyrie types are allowed to indulge in whatever they damn well please. After all, would you argue with a muscle bound, chunky woman with attitude and a big ass sword? Best to leave chastity to non adventuring nun types or maybe some knightly paladin maidens of the lake etc.
Arrowhen 10-15-04, 01:10 PM	I always hated god and religon though, and you defenitely knew this, and you purely provocated me with this damn religious thing, so I kinda blame it on 50/50 ya see ? I had planned something for you, but now you know what, it will never happen, since your char is banned from that campaign forever ! Well as far as I can remember. And if you din't like my story, fine then, I'll try to adjust mine to try to fit it in your ''better'' ideals. But since you ****** me off beyond relief, just forget it. ...but since you pushed me too much and ****** me off with your whining, just too bad. Your banned for what ? For ******* me off Yeah, that's some damned fine DMing there, buddy. Fair... impartial... truly, you're an inspiration to us all. :rolleyes:
eudas 10-15-04, 03:14 PM	:blush: Shouldn't it be: Je n'ai parler pas français depuis 10 ans, alors j'ai oublier mes études en français. I thought the verb was included in the ne-pas phrase when describing a past event. thus far, everybody has also missed the fact that the very 'oublier' should also be in the past tense (j'ai oublié). eudas
Arrowhen 10-15-04, 03:56 PM	Heh. I can't believe we all missed this... From the original post: Inside they've found a few gold pieces, a trapped chest who contained a myterious little box(inside of it was a deck of many things) No DM who gives a Deck of Many Things to a party of fifth level characters has any right complain about anything a player does, short of RL homicide.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 10-15-04, 04:44 PM	Hmmmm interesting problem.... lets us sees whats theres iz to sees. Were to begin, lets stab at the level gap. There is a large power difference between 4th and 8th level. And 4 levels is a lot. (IMC i have a spread of 4 levels, 2 7th, 1 8th, 1 9th, and 4 11ths, one of the 11ths is an NPC. The sulotion I am strongly looing at is upping everyones level to 12th). And yea other players may feel that you are focusing on the 8th level guy. I would. But more importantly how to you challenge the party as a hole with that large of a difference between players? As for the reason for adventuring, well your players are right on this one. IT IS YOUR JOB AS GM TO PROVIDE A GOOD STORY FOR ALL YOUR PLAYERS. This includes giving their character a reason for adventuring, with in reason. Your players should make characters that have common goals between them, and will generally work together. Heres an example from my Campaign; Players (all first level) Wizard from the high class end of town (PC #1), is good freinds with a human rogue from the poorer end of town (PC#2). The human sells her drugs. The human rogue has a fighter freind (PC#3), protection. The human rogue has a small gang of orphans that look out for each other. Lately some of them have been going missing. Also their freind the bar tender (NPC) is being threaten by the equivalent to the mob, who quincadentally enough is running the were this kids are going missing from. Enter PC's 1,2,&3. On the other side of town this same gang just burnt down a bar as an example for everyone else in town. The bouncer, a human fighter (PC#4), gave prusuit to the baddy that touched is job/home. And ran into, litterly, PC's 1,2,&3. Shortly after the bar was trouched a good group of good hearted poeple, Harpers, hire a private detective, Urban Ranger varaint, (PC#5) to investagate the burning of their bar. PC#5 has a freind who is a Cleric of Kord, (PC#6) who generally tries to do the right thing and prove his strength to Kord. later PC #4's g.f wanted to join, the party was 3rd level at the time so she made an elven wizard of 3rd level, that was a good school freind of PC#1. The players choose their own backgrounds and classes. Teing things in together tends to get the players more receptive of story hooks then, "You see the big bad, now go forth and crush it." Also have you treid listening to your player? maybe he has feelings that are being ignored and that maybe the cuase of his current attitude. And seriousely dude, its just a game, take a deep breath relax, and Breath. IE Calm down befor you hurt yourself. Stress is a killer. And Finnaly...............WOOOT!!!!! WOOT!!!!! I'm not the only canadain on the BRoads!!!!!! WOOOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D
Kittencaboodle 10-15-04, 05:12 PM	thus far, everybody has also missed the fact that the very 'oublier' should also be in the past tense (j'ai oublié). eudas I thought in past tenses you did leave the verb at it's basic un-edited tense, at least with the er-verbs. But then it's also been about 5 years since I've written any french down.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-15-04, 07:05 PM	Il est bon de voir que vous parlez tous un peu de français. It is good to seel that you all speak a bit of french. And on On_the_Wings_of_TPK : Technicly, I am canadian as well, but I prefer and will always prefer to be a Quebecer, but lets not strt another political debate. And yes, I should relaxe more, your right, I might have overreacted. Arrowwhen : there is no such thing as a 'lvl' required to give them a deck of many thing, as far as I know. And would you have been in my shoes, I wonder how oyu and Cold Napalm would have reacted, if you were like me, that is a guy who loves the elven race very much since more then 10 years. And, besides, this topic have already been discussed in another thread.
Grayson 10-15-04, 07:44 PM	Wow.. Just.. wow. This thread should be printed out, and handed to new DM's with a stern warning: "Don't end up like this guy." I've read a lot of DM horror stories, but you're written your own, and it's worse than 90% of the ones I've read on these boards. How the hell your players can stand you, I've got no idea. "Because it is freaking obvious that the ****ing SHIPWRECK/GHOSTSHIP isn't there for nothing ! Why would I have it there if it wasn't for you ? C'est comme réveille sti ! Translation : Wake up damn it !" That's some of the stupidest crap I've ever read. Ever. I seriously pity any poor SOB that wants to actually roleplay in one of your games. This will obviously come as a shock, but some people actually play their characters in a manner that reflects how they think their character would act. You expect them to investigate something potentially deadly, that the NPC's won't even go NEAR, just because it's there. Wow. "Huh, no, really thats your opinion, not mine. I really don't see whats the problem with his lvls ? He's more powerful then you, so what ? Its ****in' normal, since he's a fighter, and your a Sorcerer ! D&D logic ! Wake-up" That really explains a lot. Dude, you've got no idea what the hell you're doing. A 4 level difference is huge, especially at lower levels. You explain it because one guy is a fighter, and another is a sorcerer.. LOL! An 8th level fighter and an 8th level sorcerer are designed to be of equal use to a group. I.. forget it, I'm not going to waste virtual breath to explain it further than that. And really, all the "Oh YEAH, well you're not getting THAT anymore, so HAH!".. that's just pathetic. Really pathetic. That's the most classic sign of a powertripping DM that grossly favors some players over others. And hey, whaddaya know, that's exactly what's apparently happening. Ryelandt, congrats. Best of luck finding a DM that isn't a psychotic halfwit.
Encard 10-15-04, 07:49 PM	Strahd, might I ask why you're letting your own personal interest of one of the races influence how you treat a player, as you just implied you did? That's a rather big no-no. Letting your personal like/dislike of some entity in the game cause you to treat a player poorly is definitely not fair to the player; unless one of the requirements for being in your game is that the players have to agree with you that elves are great, then this is definitely to be avoided. Now, I don't know whether you're a liar, or your player is, in relation to the character background material. However, I've got to say, I'd seriously take issue with your attitude in addressing point 4 if I were one of your players. You hate religion, so when a player bring up a character proposal you immediately hate it for being vaguely religious in nature and chalk it off to him provoking you? Excuse me, is this a joke? First off, as I said previously, except in very extreme situations, personal likes and dislikes shouldn't affect how you treat a player. Extreme situations would be things like "No, you're NOT allowed to kill, rape, and eat the entire population of the village, because that's horrible, disgusting, and I don't want to run a vile game" not thing like "I hate religion, so your character is bad and I'm angry at your for suggesting it." Not to mention that in FR, deities are a huge part of the setting. Did you cut out all the deities and vilify the clerics or something? Because otherwise this sounds like a huge double standard, and one that doesn't even make sense from the standpoint of disliking the character at least in part on the basis of disliking religion. I'll note that I will agree that the class is overpowered, however, so you were right to disallow it in that form. I'm curious about something else as well. Why is it that, instead of contacting the player and asking him why he couldn't come/when he'd be able to come/etc, you just assumed your other players were right and got annoyed at him for playing MMORPGs? That's not bad DMing, but it is rather strange and inconsiderate. To address your response to point 6... As I'd said before, Spellfire really isn't as powerful as you seem to think unless the casters he fights are continuously incompetent. If they actually act intelligently adn have some of the information they logically should have, then it's a nice feat, but a balanced one. 10 - No, that's NOT D&D logic. Logic is that at low levels, the fighter will be moderately more powerful than the sorcerer, and this will reverse at higher levels. Logic does not hold that because of this, a fighter who is four times as powerful as the sorcerer in pure ECL sense, and even more so in a practical sense, is appropriate to be in the same party as the sorcerer. This isn't a logical power difference that's part of the class design, it's a huge gaping power hole that makes the sorcerer useless. Racist remarks toward elves? Uh... What? Elves aren't even a real species, much less a real race. Unless you're using the old meaning of "race," they're only a race in the sense that D&D chooses to call species that. I find it rather odd that you're so touchy about this. and for being a constant whiner about NOT being happy with your damn storyline. Didn't you say he didn't have one? Now, as I said before, I don't know which of you is lying. However, your player sure did sound a lot more civil than you did. He also made some points I know to be valid from my own experience. Perhaps that's not the best thing to base an opinion off of, but it's the only one I have. At the very least, it sounds more and more like you're at least as responsible for the trouble as your player is. Ryelandt - Best of luck finding a new group, if you end up doing so. Hopefully you'll land in one with less problems.
Cold Napalm 10-15-04, 09:31 PM	Umm strad I am actually a very HUGE fan of elves...and not so much of religion...so? As a DM am I gonna hurt a plyer because he's a cleric of a god or plays an elf hater because a radical group of elves killed her family? Hell no and neither should you. Maybe you should let somebody else take over and just play as it seems you are incapable of attaining the perspective needed to be a good DM.
VirgilCaine 10-15-04, 09:40 PM	The Sorceress is particularly irratable, (and thats the purpose of this whole thread), she's an elf who HATES HER OWN PEOPLES FOR GOD'S SAKE ! I keep askin' that palyer, ''Why the **** are you playing elves, if you don't like them?'' '' 'Cause they're the only race who lives very, for nearly eternity'' ''Ok, but why do you keep playing females elves all the time, instead of males (ok got nothing against players who love to roleplay female char, but wait to see his reason as the why he keeps playing elven female ONLY) ? '' 'Cause males elves looks gay !'' Me(being the elf lover, that I am) : ''....no comments...'' What? We've got humans who hate humans IRL.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-16-04, 02:29 AM	Tsk tsk tsk..your all wrong. I'm NOT an extremist who hates all other races besides elves, and neither do I forbid every single damn god ! In fact, I'm quite good at playin' clerics myself. And I personaly think, its one of the most powerful class in the base books ! Encan, in anycase, we solved the matter earlier today, and ''Ryelandt'' is definetely stayin' in the group, we often disagree on many things, but that doesn't mean we're gonna beat the hell out of each other just for that, y'know. The matter is solved, I'll try to give more XPs to the others. And I'll try to be less ''psychopath'' like Grayson said... Grayson & ColdNapalm : You were right about the lvl-gap, I'm sorry, I truly overreacted, but I do know one thing, and that is to know I'm wrong. And on this matter I was wrong, and you were right all along. My previous post in which I was responding and yelling at Ryelandt should be taken into consideration, since I was damn tired yesterday and had a darn crapy day at College. And besides you shouldn't take our ''heated conversation'' on the net too seriously, after all, its just the net. We both act a totaly different way in reality. However, you both seem pretty ...angry if I can so myself. When I'm reading your responses you both sounds like your not get outta my screen and try to knock me off with a warhammer saying something like ''Be a better a DM, and a less powertrip DM for jesus' sake, your doing us all shame !'' Be less agressive next time I bring an issue, and maybe less insulting (I'm reffering to Grayson calling something like that ? psychotic halfwit thats kinda insulting ya know) we're only on a message board, if you want to show yourself as an example of maturity, shouldn't you act a bit more maturely yourself ? This thread is done with its purpose, case closed as far as I'm concerned. On unto this, bonne nuit à tous ! G'night all !
Cold Napalm 10-16-04, 02:49 AM	Good to hear you worked it out. Well, let's just say I and probably greyson have been in similar situations... Discussions get heated...but knowing when your wrong is a BIG thing, and I can respect that. Sorry if sounded too harsh...I get very arguementive a lot of times. And I do tend to pick at things...Makes me a good detective, but not so nice a person.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-16-04, 02:58 AM	Its alright I suppose...you know Grayson personaly ? He just *****ed me on another thread, this is gettin' seriously annoying....and yes I was wrong and you were right, I'll try to balance out things better tomorrow if we play. And to give him a better background too, as he suggested. And also to not expect things player to go into the big bad dungeon... Oh well, I'm tired see ya !
Cold Napalm 10-16-04, 03:17 AM	Personally, nope...but having played in a game like that tends to leave a mark on a person that sees a level spread like that and go boom. Like me and greyson did. I'm guessing hehe. If you think this is bad...the arguement me and fixxxer got into over what to do with missing players was umm...yeah. But don't take it too harshly, it's easier to be rude and obnoxious over the net. Then again I'm like that in person too ;) . Good night and good luck with your game :) .
Arrowhen 10-16-04, 05:29 AM	Arrowwhen : there is no such thing as a 'lvl' required to give them a deck of many thing, as far as I know. Um... the Deck of Many Things is an artifact. An artifact Common sense alone should tell you that 5th level character + artifact is a damn bad idea. Even more so when said artifact is as potentially campaign-destroying as the DMT. I wonder how oyu and Cold Napalm would have reacted, if you were like me, that is a guy who loves the elven race very much since more then 10 years. First I'd come up with some nasty elven villains, because I believe that getting the chance to beat up your "favorite" enemy is as much of a reward as treasure and xp. Then I'd work on setting up a situaton where his character would have to cooperate with the hated elves for the sake of the greater good.
Grayson 10-16-04, 09:56 AM	No, I've never had anything even vaguely similar happen in any of my games, and no, I'm not angry at all. Bemused in a disgusted sort of way, yes, but nowhere near angry. If I was your player, then I'd be angry. But then if i was your player, there's no way in heck I would have put up with being treated like **** for so long. I'm glad that you're willing to admit to being wrong. That is, like someone else said, a big thing. It doesn't change my opinion on anything, unfortunately.
Shard of Suzail 10-16-04, 10:19 AM	Certainly this gm has made some bad calls, but i do not feel he needs to be crucified in this manner. From the posts he has made and the posts his player has made, i would say that a fair proportion of blame lays at the players feet. Look at what has gone on, for instance. The gm at one point throws him out, but now he tells us the player is back in and all is well. This tells me that that the player concerned has a lot of power and is capable of ignoring his gm's opinion. To know that a gm is desperately unhappy with you, to then call him a liar and have him announce that he has thrown you out only to return to that game, presumably as if all is well...it just strikes me as very suspicious. I sense his players are holding him to ransom and that a few emotional posts and a few gm mistakes have meant that posters here have branded him the spawn of evil itself. I dont feel that he is perfect, he probably has a lot to learn, but he is still unhappy and his players have not acted in a manner that has helped their plight. I do not believe, likewise, that the story we have from the player concerned is entirely accurate. If it was and he felt such a way about his gm, then he wouldnt be in the game or going back to it and he would have worked much harder to sort things out in the first place. Strahd has been clumsy, but do not feel that his player is now pure and without blame. Players build a game as well as GM's and they have a responsibility to work with that GM and to help him. This player has a lot more power than he lets on and I, for one, would regard this situation as a lot less black and white as some have started to assume.
StrahdVonZarovich 10-16-04, 05:02 PM	Do not worry about me, friend, I can confirm you that I am NOT being manipulated by my players. We just though, that this whole mess was stupid, and that we should just act like adults. After all, like someone else previsouly said it in this thread, its only a game. We both came with compromises, and we're all happy to continue the game ! And as for me, if anything seriously **** me off again, I'll try to talk it out with 'em before overreacting again, but if it is beyond hope, then I will be the one to let the campaign down, and then they will no choices but accept to talk about the problems in question. I do not, I am the one who's holding the true power in all of that issue, but neither is Ryelandt, nor any other players in this campaign. We're both 22's (me and Ryelandt), the dwarven player is 18, and the halfing rogue just got on his 20's, its about time we act like adults, don'tcha think ? And yes, its not black and white everywhere, there ARE tones of grey here and there. But do not worry, I perfecly control the situation.
Cold Napalm 10-17-04, 12:25 AM	Hehe perfectly in control huh strad? Famous last words. FYI I love giving DMT to players...It was a great way for a party to destroy a tarrasque...I draw EVERY card. That was funny. They held onto the deck from level 7 to level 19 because they were too scared to draw anything. But yeah in general...bad unless you have paranoid players like I do. Oh yeah, they never use wish anymore too...